Battle of Wits

magic_nerd345 · 10-21-2009, 06:56 PM

What would generally go into a battle of wits deck? Is it even a possible archetype?

Luminous · 10-21-2009, 07:11 PM

the deck is casual at best. problems include:
1)it takes a full turn: it is checked at the beginning of your upkeep so if you play it at sorcery speed your opponent gets a full turn to mill you, win, or destroy the enchantment. The enchantment is hard to protect (it can be countered to destroyed) and hard to hold onto (discard). A Meddling Mage is easily enough to stop you.
2)it is online midgame: it is very slow (5 mana) in extended you have a pretty sizable chance of losing before you get to play it unless you are always responding to your opponent.
3)it takes more then a 200 card deck: assuming you have 5 lands out and drew your opening hand and a card per turn; (7 cards+1 per turn(5 turns)+200 library)=212 cards minimum you would have to play with and large decks have constancy problems which is why almost every day that is competitive is 60 cards (occasionally 61 if you are all trendy like Nassif)
4)you would need to tutor: cards you would play would be tutors such as enlightened tutor so you can find it, and counters to protect it

these are just the ideas off the top of my head.

magic_nerd345 · 10-21-2009, 07:19 PM

lol did you see the pro tour decks no1 was playing counterspells in constructed.

Luminous · 10-21-2009, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magic_nerd345

lol did you see the pro tour decks no1 was playing counterspells in constructed.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...taus09/tedecks

this is not an exhastive list but:
counterspells played in extended were: cryptic command, mana leak, spell snare
cards that stop it: meddling mage, , oblivion ring, Gaddock Teeg
cards that kill it:Qasali Pridemage,

and aggro simply can win before turn 5 unless you slow them down.
and in extended you only have a few tutors to find the enchantment.

spacelion · 10-21-2009, 07:42 PM

I cannot see how you think Pithing Needles stops Battle of Wits.

A Battle of Wits deck won the envelope last season, don't dismiss it.

Luminous · 10-21-2009, 07:47 PM

my mistake ill edit out the pithing needle part
of the 70-80 decks who recorded 18 or more points in the 10 rounds of Extended at Pro Tour–Austin, 0 of them ran Battle of Wits so that was my reference for the current extended season.

i forgot about this but here are two decks which did run it and win http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...om/daily/bd209

Atobe · 10-21-2009, 07:55 PM

I've been messing around with my own Battle of Wits deck the past couple of days (don't have the decklist on this computer).

Biggest problem of the deck in terms of building it is simply the lack of quality and cheap tutors. Finding enough good playables isn't really a big problem but the lack of ways to get Wits out early can be quite problematic. The lack of cheap counterspells is a problem too.

Best way to build it is as a UBW control deck (you can also stretch it out to 5C) that just wins with Battle of Wits as it's win condition instead of like Baneslayer Angel. It's obviously never going to be a top tier deck but it's not terrible. You could also approach it as a serious version of the great CynicalSquirrel's 300 card zoo deck, basically playing all the good 1/2/3 drops in the format with Battle of Wits as an alternate win.

The real issue is the fact that aggro, combo and control (well to a lesser extent) decks are viable in the format. You need answers to Dark Depths and Hypergenesis as early as possible but also need to maintain the deck against other decks.

That being said I lived the dream the other day casting a Battle of Wits off my opponent's Hypergenesis before I even played a land

(the statistical likelihood of this happening and it not getting AoD'd is probably way less than 1%).

magic_nerd345 · 10-21-2009, 07:58 PM

there's lots of ways to find the enchantment, my favorite is milling ur deck and then eternal witnessing it and then loaming shaman ur graveyard into ur library

Atobe · 10-21-2009, 08:05 PM

The thing is the format is simply way too fast to play Battle of Wits like that in a semi-competitive manner. Both creatures do fit the deck though if you want to run green and play more of a creature/utility type of deck but that combo is pretty bad.

Honestly the best way to approach Battle of Wits is that it's a pseudo Baneslayer Angel that does actually win you the game if it untaps. You can build a control deck to last that long or you can take a more aggressive approach (you'd be surprised by just how many good 1/2 drops are in the format) that wins with Battle of Wits against other Zoo decks and as a way to win in general

magic_nerd345 · 10-21-2009, 08:49 PM

lol i guess it's time for me to brew up a list, ill post a list here in about 1-2 days (takes longer cuz more card choices.

starcraftha · 12-09-2009, 11:31 AM

There are a lot of things to do and put into a battle of wits deck. The build I am running also includes the Dark Depths / Vampire Hexmage combo and the Thopter Foundry / Sword of the Meek. Being a control deck would be the best shell, in my opinion. There are plenty of tutors (transmute) so the deck can really be anything you want it to be. Auriok Salvages / Trinket Mage packages would also be a good idea to include.

There are tools to beat any deck in the format. They just need to be findable, and transmute does this. The following is just a breif table of tools for various decks sorted by CMC / transmutes.

0, Tolaria West: Pact of Negation (protect a combo) Tormods Crypt (Dredge), Dark Depths (Combo Piece)
1, Dizzy Spell: Executioners Capsule (Zoo), Tormod's Crypt (Dredge), Despellers Capsule (Affinity, slowly) Pithing Needle (Combo), Spell Snare (Zoo), Spell Pierce (Hypergenesis)
2, Muddle the Mixture, Dimir Infiltrator, Shred Memory: Combo Pieces, Counter Spells, Hurkels Recall (Affinity),

More to come soon

NavyJoe · 12-09-2009, 01:43 PM

you could play Bant which I think would be the best combo of colors. I to will come up with a huge list.

MotC · 12-13-2009, 08:27 PM

Not saying Battle of Wits would be horrible, but why would you want to play that in real life(shuffling)? The best part is that no judge would want to deck check you and If they did you'd get a time extension of 30min and then you have to go crazy shuffling it when they have it all sorted.

starcraftha · 12-14-2009, 10:00 AM

I want to play this IRL because itis a complicated, multi-funtional deck. It is a unique deck with few pilots. I ended up trimming my deck down to Blue / Black instant based with a Proteous Staff sub-theme.

Thought-About-Writing · 12-21-2009, 03:23 AM

Battle of Wits would be fun as hell. I am really going to check out some deck lists and see how most people built it.

10-21-2009, 06:56 PM	#1
magic_nerd345 Experienced Mage Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 90	Battle of Wits What would generally go into a battle of wits deck? Is it even a possible archetype?
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10-21-2009, 07:11 PM	#2
Luminous Archmage Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 849	the deck is casual at best. problems include: 1)it takes a full turn: it is checked at the beginning of your upkeep so if you play it at sorcery speed your opponent gets a full turn to mill you, win, or destroy the enchantment. The enchantment is hard to protect (it can be countered to destroyed) and hard to hold onto (discard). A Meddling Mage is easily enough to stop you. 2)it is online midgame: it is very slow (5 mana) in extended you have a pretty sizable chance of losing before you get to play it unless you are always responding to your opponent. 3)it takes more then a 200 card deck: assuming you have 5 lands out and drew your opening hand and a card per turn; (7 cards+1 per turn(5 turns)+200 library)=212 cards minimum you would have to play with and large decks have constancy problems which is why almost every day that is competitive is 60 cards (occasionally 61 if you are all trendy like Nassif) 4)you would need to tutor: cards you would play would be tutors such as enlightened tutor so you can find it, and counters to protect it these are just the ideas off the top of my head. __________________ "It was probably a lousy spell in the first place." —Ertai, wizard adept Legacy: Miracle, MUC, StoneBlade, Merfolk, Burn, & Reanimator EDH: Azami, Lady of Scrolls & Riku of Two Reflections Casual: Dragonstorm, Dralnu-Teachings, NinjaFae, & Izzet EDH Last edited by Luminous; 10-21-2009 at 07:48 PM.
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10-21-2009, 07:47 PM	#6
Luminous Archmage Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 849	my mistake ill edit out the pithing needle part of the 70-80 decks who recorded 18 or more points in the 10 rounds of Extended at Pro Tour–Austin, 0 of them ran Battle of Wits so that was my reference for the current extended season. i forgot about this but here are two decks which did run it and win http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...om/daily/bd209 __________________ "It was probably a lousy spell in the first place." —Ertai, wizard adept Legacy: Miracle, MUC, StoneBlade, Merfolk, Burn, & Reanimator EDH: Azami, Lady of Scrolls & Riku of Two Reflections Casual: Dragonstorm, Dralnu-Teachings, NinjaFae, & Izzet EDH Last edited by Luminous; 10-21-2009 at 07:54 PM.
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12-09-2009, 11:31 AM	#11
starcraftha Common Mage Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 31	There are a lot of things to do and put into a battle of wits deck. The build I am running also includes the Dark Depths / Vampire Hexmage combo and the Thopter Foundry / Sword of the Meek. Being a control deck would be the best shell, in my opinion. There are plenty of tutors (transmute) so the deck can really be anything you want it to be. Auriok Salvages / Trinket Mage packages would also be a good idea to include. There are tools to beat any deck in the format. They just need to be findable, and transmute does this. The following is just a breif table of tools for various decks sorted by CMC / transmutes. 0, Tolaria West: Pact of Negation (protect a combo) Tormods Crypt (Dredge), Dark Depths (Combo Piece) 1, Dizzy Spell: Executioners Capsule (Zoo), Tormod's Crypt (Dredge), Despellers Capsule (Affinity, slowly) Pithing Needle (Combo), Spell Snare (Zoo), Spell Pierce (Hypergenesis) 2, Muddle the Mixture, Dimir Infiltrator, Shred Memory: Combo Pieces, Counter Spells, Hurkels Recall (Affinity), More to come soon __________________ "If I accept you for who you are, I am your enemy. Friendship comes when one crosses the line of acceptance and into the life of that person and aides them in ways both known and unknown. Growth of an individual is a sign of a good friendship."
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12-09-2009, 01:43 PM	#12
NavyJoe Resident Planeswalker Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Hampton, VA Posts: 4,165	you could play Bant which I think would be the best combo of colors. I to will come up with a huge list. __________________ Decks Currently Playing: STD: Suit Up! -16th DC Open BUG Control
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10-21-2009, 07:19 PM	#3
magic_nerd345 Experienced Mage Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 90	lol did you see the pro tour decks no1 was playing counterspells in constructed.
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10-21-2009, 07:42 PM	#5
spacelion Ascended Mage Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 229	I cannot see how you think Pithing Needles stops Battle of Wits. A Battle of Wits deck won the envelope last season, don't dismiss it.
0

10-21-2009, 07:55 PM	#7
Atobe Archmage Overlord Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,563	I've been messing around with my own Battle of Wits deck the past couple of days (don't have the decklist on this computer). Biggest problem of the deck in terms of building it is simply the lack of quality and cheap tutors. Finding enough good playables isn't really a big problem but the lack of ways to get Wits out early can be quite problematic. The lack of cheap counterspells is a problem too. Best way to build it is as a UBW control deck (you can also stretch it out to 5C) that just wins with Battle of Wits as it's win condition instead of like Baneslayer Angel. It's obviously never going to be a top tier deck but it's not terrible. You could also approach it as a serious version of the great CynicalSquirrel's 300 card zoo deck, basically playing all the good 1/2/3 drops in the format with Battle of Wits as an alternate win. The real issue is the fact that aggro, combo and control (well to a lesser extent) decks are viable in the format. You need answers to Dark Depths and Hypergenesis as early as possible but also need to maintain the deck against other decks. That being said I lived the dream the other day casting a Battle of Wits off my opponent's Hypergenesis before I even played a land (the statistical likelihood of this happening and it not getting AoD'd is probably way less than 1%).
0

10-21-2009, 07:58 PM	#8
magic_nerd345 Experienced Mage Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 90	there's lots of ways to find the enchantment, my favorite is milling ur deck and then eternal witnessing it and then loaming shaman ur graveyard into ur library
0

10-21-2009, 08:05 PM	#9
Atobe Archmage Overlord Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,563	The thing is the format is simply way too fast to play Battle of Wits like that in a semi-competitive manner. Both creatures do fit the deck though if you want to run green and play more of a creature/utility type of deck but that combo is pretty bad. Honestly the best way to approach Battle of Wits is that it's a pseudo Baneslayer Angel that does actually win you the game if it untaps. You can build a control deck to last that long or you can take a more aggressive approach (you'd be surprised by just how many good 1/2 drops are in the format) that wins with Battle of Wits against other Zoo decks and as a way to win in general
0

10-21-2009, 08:49 PM	#10
magic_nerd345 Experienced Mage Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 90	lol i guess it's time for me to brew up a list, ill post a list here in about 1-2 days (takes longer cuz more card choices.
0

12-13-2009, 08:27 PM	#13
MotC Experienced Mage Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 147	Not saying Battle of Wits would be horrible, but why would you want to play that in real life(shuffling)? The best part is that no judge would want to deck check you and If they did you'd get a time extension of 30min and then you have to go crazy shuffling it when they have it all sorted. __________________ TheStein on Magic Online I'm a highly competitive player.
0

12-14-2009, 10:00 AM	#14
starcraftha Common Mage Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 31	I want to play this IRL because itis a complicated, multi-funtional deck. It is a unique deck with few pilots. I ended up trimming my deck down to Blue / Black instant based with a Proteous Staff sub-theme. __________________ "If I accept you for who you are, I am your enemy. Friendship comes when one crosses the line of acceptance and into the life of that person and aides them in ways both known and unknown. Growth of an individual is a sign of a good friendship."
0

12-21-2009, 03:23 AM	#15
Thought-About-Writing Archmage Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 848	Battle of Wits would be fun as hell. I am really going to check out some deck lists and see how most people built it.
0

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