Part of me thinks that either Puzzle or Az is Scum. Why? because if you were both town (I'm going back to Epee/Puzzle from 8-bit) you would be agreeing, or if you were both scum you would both agree (the latter is closer to true). Anyone agree?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia Stats (10-22 Overall) Random Mafia 2 Town MVP '08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Oh, and as you say it, in case it wasn't obvious to most anyway, Chamber apparently has "hidden" reasons to think you clear. I first took it as someone trying to gain sympathies (hence my vote on him) but then realize that it was indeed more likely to be something else. As I then didn't want to wagon Chamber, I moved to the next target available as quick as possible, which was Ikerr. I kept the FOS to blur my traces.
So, yes, sue me (I shouldn't say that to Americans...).
Sorry about not posting in a while, my computer was down yesterday and not much was happening in the thread over the weekend.
Wow, looks like I missed all the action.
Xyre has been about the scummiest I have ever seen, but I'm having difficulty coming up with a reason of why a mafia would do what he did. The mafia was never in a position to get enough information to warrant sacrificing one of their members like that. The best they could have hoped for is a solid roleclaim for one of their weaker members, but that was unlikely to have worked given his other scummy actions.
Now on to the other target: sgdre
You have contradicted yourself with regards to your intentions on the Xyre vote. You stated in your defence to Puzzle that you had never seriously wanted to lynch Xyre, when your post #250 clearly shows your intention to lynch him.
It also took only a couple of posts from Azrael to convince you to jump off of the wagon, when those posts were being questioned by SorryGuy. So, the moment any steam is taken out of the wagon, you are quick to distance yourself, and move on to the next target, again when you were thirsty for Xyre's blood just 4 posts prior.
Quote from sgdre »
Quote from Puzzle »
You mean like, a scum Chamber :
- seeing a townie inform everyone that he has a scummy-sounding role,
- making the deduction that therefore the town can't rely on scummy-sounding names to find scums
- then playing the openness card with 0 risk ?
What risk is involved for him if he's scum ?
This is not a proper reason to find Chamber clear.
Step one never happened. Your argument is flawed. See above.
Step one did happen. Azrael's post #27 basically stated that he had a scummy-sounding name. I don't think its a huge leap for a mafia member, knowing that Azrael isn't mafia, to assume that at least some townies have scummy names and to want to confirm that.
Overall, I'm not happy with sgdre's reponses to his actions on the Xyre wagon and a willing to Vote: sgdre at this point.
My last was a bit belated. However, I think that this Sgd threat looks very interesting. FOS: SGD. He's got a lot of evidence, but I would like to see him tell us a bit more. SG...is this your first mafia game (I can see it is here) If not, Where else have you played? I'm curious because he's being kinda hasty/overdefensive with his ideas and contradicting himself. Contradictions do not always spell scum, they just may mean change of heart/easily persuadable/forgetful.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia Stats (10-22 Overall) Random Mafia 2 Town MVP '08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Sigh, more bandwaggoning to deal with. Are people reading my responses and not being satisfied? I feel that I am answering the questions being posed to me.
Quote from ikerr »
Now on to the other target: sgdre
You have contradicted yourself with regards to your intentions on the Xyre vote. You stated in your defence to Puzzle that you had never seriously wanted to lynch Xyre, when your post #250 clearly shows your intention to lynch him.
No it didnt. Post #250 shows that there were several important things about Xyre that needed to be considered, and that I thought he was scummy. By that point I was already about to unvote so that we wouldnt rush into a lynch, as evidenced by the fact that I unvoted so soon after.
It also took only a couple of posts from Azrael to convince you to jump off of the wagon, when those posts were being questioned by SorryGuy. So, the moment any steam is taken out of the wagon, you are quick to distance yourself, and move on to the next target, again when you were thirsty for Xyre's blood just 4 posts prior.
I dont understand what you are getting at here. Who cares if SorryGuy questions the posts? Also, I would hardly say the steam was out of the wagon. I could have easily stayed on for much longer than I was. As I have repeatedly stated, I was not "thirsty for Xyre's blood" ever, and I certainly wasnt on the post you are referencing.
Step one did happen. Azrael's post #27 basically stated that he had a scummy-sounding name. I don't think its a huge leap for a mafia member, knowing that Azrael isn't mafia, to assume that at least some townies have scummy names and to want to confirm that.
No it didnt. Post 27 said that he didnt want to claim. Are you telling me that while you read that you immediately assumed that Az was saying he had a scummy sounding name? Az has since stated that people should not presume to know what he meant in that post. It is not a logical step to assume that Az is a townie with a scummy name. Also, if a mafia member did figure this out, I doubt that it would be Chamber (not a jab a Chamber, I didnt get it with more info, just saying that I dont see him coming up with this play as mafia)
Overall, I'm not happy with sgdre's reponses to his actions on the Xyre wagon and a willing to Vote: sgdre at this point.
Why arent you happy? Many of your points seem redundant to accusations from puzzle that I have already responded to.
EBDP: @Ikerr: I'm not sure if I'm misreading this but how are you sure Az is town? or are you just making assumptions (not that there's anything wrong with that)
oh and in my previous post i meant abridged not belated.
Quote from sgdre »
No it didnt. Post #250 shows that there were several important things about Xyre that needed to be considered, and that I thought he was scummy. By that point I was already about to unvote so that we wouldnt rush into a lynch, as evidenced by the fact that I unvoted so soon after.
Scummy = wanting to lynch = Vote: Sgdre
Quote from sgdre »
I dont understand what you are getting at here. Who cares if SorryGuy questions the posts? Also, I would hardly say the steam was out of the wagon. I could have easily stayed on for much longer than I was. As I have repeatedly stated, I was not "thirsty for Xyre's blood" ever, and I certainly wasnt on the post you are referencing.
Then why did you get off the wagon?
Quote from sgdre »
No it didnt. Post 27 said that he didnt want to claim. Are you telling me that while you read that you immediately assumed that Az was saying he had a scummy sounding name? Az has since stated that people should not presume to know what he meant in that post. It is not a logical step to assume that Az is a townie with a scummy name. Also, if a mafia member did figure this out, I doubt that it would be Chamber (not a jab a Chamber, I didnt get it with more info, just saying that I dont see him coming up with this play as mafia)
This is my first mafia game. I have played live mafia before, but this is a whole new ball game. Also, my position on Xyre has not been as contradictary as some people claim. I first thought that he was a newb making newb mistakes. Then he made a lot of them so I wanted to pressure him to make sure he answered them. Then I became reconvinced of newbness and unvoted him. Note that the last step does not mean that I think he is not scum. It just means that I dont think that the evidence against him points that strongly at him being scum. I still think that he has done the scummiest things out of everyone (with the possible exception of some of the bandwaggoning on me, but I havent really thought through all of the ramifications of that yet).
EWP: O, and I think claiming that I was contradictary in admonishing chamber for revealing info while doing it myself is weak. I have admitted to being unsure of what should be public knowledge and what shouldnt. In fact, the longer I play, the more I think that it is incorrect to reveal feelings that someone is innocent unless they are being targeted for a lynch (can someone experianced confirm this?). The only reason that I continue/d to defend Chamber is that puzzle was questioning my defense of him to make me seem scummy.
@ Jobie: In the post of my unvote I explain that I got off the Xyre waggon "for discussion purposes." I dont see why you are voting me because I wanted to continue to talk about things. Also, while I removed my vote, I did comment on things that I thought were important to keep in mind about Xyre (the 250 post in which I reveal my inner bloodlust [/sarcasm])
At the moment, I'm not satisified with either wagon (obviously so with xyre), although I am a bit more suspicious of Sgrde at this time.
Both of them seem like n00bs, so they could or could not be scum; all of the present discussion seems sorta irrelevant.
One thing that did seem a mite suspicious is that MoT basically said that he was voting Sgrde solely for the sake of information, which seems sort of scummy to me, so FOS MoT and also Sgrde
Az, unless Im mistaken, the only thing you were voting for was a big ol no lynch.
I would agree that it is very possible that Xyre is n00bing it up, but there are some important things to consider...
a) His claim was in response to one (maybe two) votes along with me responding to n00bish actions, NOT 3-5 attacks (well, I guess 3, but still, not that much attacking)
b) He has done just about every scummy thing that someone can do (see the list of the 5 things he has done wrong)
c) Bad play should not be an acceptable excuse. Voting players who play poorly will force people to begin to play better, much like lynching liars will stop townies from lieing (I hate this argument, but it is true).
So, while I dont have any issues with talking it out, I dont think that Xyre should live through the day unless something extremely odd happens.
Again, this is the post where you want to lynch Xyre. I honestly don't see how anything else could be construed from it. I don't see any indication that you were getting ready to unvote.
The next bit I worded a little poorly, what I was trying to say was that you were too eager to distance yourself from the wagon as soon as the slightest hint of not lynching Xyre arose. My comments regarding SorrGuy were just to emphasize how slight that hint was.
From Azrael's post, the most logical conclusion is that he has a name that would not be believed to be town. Why? Because it sounds scummy. I'm not saying that this is definately the case, but I could see someone sure enough about that to act on it.
Quote from sgdre »
Many of your points seem redundant to accusations from puzzle that I have already responded to.
Basically, they are. The thing that I am least happy about is your refusal that you wanted to lynch Xyre in post #250 when I can't see any other way for that post to be interpreted.
Quote from Jobie »
@Ikerr: I'm not sure if I'm misreading this but how are you sure Az is town?
I didn't say that I was sure that Az was town, I was just proposing a circumstance where sgdre's logic in defending Chamber fails, namely if Chamber is mafia. Namely, sgdre's theory is correct assuming Chamber is town, but the play would be the same if he was mafia. Az was only assumed to be town in this scenario, because that is the only way for a mafia Chamber to follow the hint he dropped. Basically, I don't think we can be sure of either of them.
I've been wondering why Azrael so quickly joined my "wagon". Perhaps that was intentional. In fact, considering the fact that he wouldn't be targeted for bandwagoning, plus the recent suspicions, Unvote, Vote Azrael.
Ugh, I had a reply to Ikker that got eaten, here it goes again...
I think that people are misinterpreting post 250. I am right on the cusp of unvoting Xyre to slow the waggon/allow for disscusion/am less sure of his scummitude than before, but want to make sure that people keep track of points weighing against him. I am also reaffirming my belief that he has been the scummiest thus far. My proof that this was my state of mind? I unvote less that 20 minutes later BEFORE reading any sort of response to my post (Az made a response in between but I didnt refresh before posting and thus didnt see it. This is supposed to be the time frame in which I realize the town doesnt want to lynch Xyre and get off? What would have convinced me?
Also, I was confused because SorryGuy was supporting the lynch, so his comments had little to do with changing my mind.
I think that it was really less of a change in mindset than people make it out to be. I didnt go from thinking Xyre was scum to thinking him innocent. I went from realizing that Xyre was doing very scummy things and wanting to get answers out of him/applying pressure to him to attributing most (if not all) of the mistakes to newbness. Try rereading post 250 in context from the mindset that Im saying I was in to see if it makes sense.
Quote from Xyre »
I've been wondering why Azrael so quickly joined my "wagon". Perhaps that was intentional. In fact, considering the fact that he wouldn't be targeted for bandwagoning, plus the recent suspicions, Unvote, Vote Azrael.
I dont understand at all what you are implying/doing. Obviously Az joined your wagon intentionally. What does the second sentence mean?
That's quite a positional turnaround, considering what you said about me in post 250. Why should I think you're doing anything new when you're referencing one of your most antagonistic posts?
Oh, and about the second sentence, what may have happened is he saw me start it and joined, using me as the fallguy while starting a train for no lynch.
Fadeblue has mentioned something about rediculous double posting in the game, and I frankly agree. There are 5 merged posts on this page alone. I don't want to have to start punishing double posts, so keep it down. The newer players seem to be having the most trouble here, so I'll make it simple.
READ POSTS BEFORE YOU POST THEM. HENCE THE REVIEW POST BUTTON!!!!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone
To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
Amazing-their fighting over something that had nothing to do with them, specifically my decisions.
Oh, MOT, I'm sorry, but it's a figurative bottle of wine. If I knew where to send it, it might show up, but don't count on wine. Maybe coffee.
Yes, it must be very flattering. It may also be very revealing. That's why they are doing it.
Quote from sgdre »
Hmm, I have to disagree with you Axel. While I mean no offense to Chamber, I doubt that he could have made that guess as mafia and realize the possible implications about saying it outloud (I didnt even see the possibility until after chamber pointed it out, and i am a scummy sounding towny). While Chamber could have figured it out, it seems extremely unlikely in my mind. Regardless of whether or not I am right, this is why I was/am so sure of Chamber
It was not that long ago someone said nearly the exact same thing about me in a mafia game and they were completely wrong. It's a dangerous assumption to make, at this point in the game, that Chamber is incapable of making that guess as a mafia member. I'm not saying that I think that he is mafia, just that I can't rule him out and certainly not based on your not seeing the possibility at that time.
Quote from Jobie »
Part of me thinks that either Puzzle or Az is Scum. Why? because if you were both town (I'm going back to Epee/Puzzle from 8-bit) you would be agreeing, or if you were both scum you would both agree (the latter is closer to true). Anyone agree?
It is possible that they are simply disagreeing, either deliberately or genuinely. Neither seems to me to be playing the devil's advocate though.
Quote from sgdre »
Quote from ikerr »
Step one did happen. Azrael's post #27 basically stated that he had a scummy-sounding name. I don't think its a huge leap for a mafia member, knowing that Azrael isn't mafia, to assume that at least some townies have scummy names and to want to confirm that.
No it didnt. Post 27 said that he didnt want to claim. Are you telling me that while you read that you immediately assumed that Az was saying he had a scummy sounding name? Az has since stated that people should not presume to know what he meant in that post. It is not a logical step to assume that Az is a townie with a scummy name. Also, if a mafia member did figure this out, I doubt that it would be Chamber (not a jab a Chamber, I didnt get it with more info, just saying that I dont see him coming up with this play as mafia)
As Axelrod said Azrael was not the only person who made a post either intentionally or unintentionally indicating that there were role names that could be conssidered scummy sounding. Judging from the few posts I saw I'd say that at least a couple of the posts were intentional.
You are the second person to question Chamber's ability, regardless of whether or not he is mafia, to make the connection regarding townies with scummy sounding roles.
Why? I don't know chamber from prior games like I do some other players but I don't see him as incapable of coming up with that observation. This maybe completely inconsequential but I'd like to know, why two people now have made or agreed with this assumption?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
RELAPSED MAFIA JUNKIE
W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
I think Jobie's right. It seems strange that both Azrael and Puzzle are fighting with each other on the same side. Of course, it could be misinformation, but I doubt that they would be misinformed to the point of disagreeing. The last time I saw this type of discussion was between Puzzle and Epeeguy (as Jobie said), and they were both on different sides.>.> (Of course, considering Puzzle's behavior, it could have been misconstrued.) I still think Azrael was too ready to jump on the No Lynch train and jump off at the first sign of me getting pulverized by detractors. I still stand by my position that Az was looking for a patsy to take the fall while a No Lynch idea started to spread. Curse you, Azrael, if this is true.
I eagerly await your response to this accusation.
@ hawkeye: It isnt a matter of questioning Chamber's abilities. It is a matter of saying that it would be extremely difficult to come to Chamber's conclusion without being a scummy sounding towny. If one is a scummy sounding towny, then when ppl start to say, "man, I hope I dont have to claim," you would start to think "hey, i get that, I wouldnt want to claim either cause my role is so scummy, maybe they are in the same situation" (note that even with the advantage of being a towny with a scummy role it is still not assured that you will notice as is evidenced by my failure to). As it isnt assured that someone would figure this all out if they are a scummy towny, it seems very unlikely to me that scum could figure it out.
The part that is important to the wagon on me though is the fact that I thought that at the time. It is irrelavent what I currently think about Chamber and whether or not he is confirmed towny.
@ hawkeye: It isnt a matter of questioning Chamber's abilities. It is a matter of saying that it would be extremely difficult to come to Chamber's conclusion without being a scummy sounding towny. If one is a scummy sounding towny, then when ppl start to say, "man, I hope I dont have to claim," you would start to think "hey, i get that, I wouldnt want to claim either cause my role is so scummy, maybe they are in the same situation" (note that even with the advantage of being a towny with a scummy role it is still not assured that you will notice as is evidenced by my failure to). As it isnt assured that someone would figure this all out if they are a scummy towny, it seems very unlikely to me that scum could figure it out.
The part that is important to the wagon on me though is the fact that I thought that at the time. It is irrelavent what I currently think about Chamber and whether or not he is confirmed towny.
I guess I misunderstood the point or points you were making. I thought you were making two points. One that Chamber was incapable of coming up with that conclusion because of some ability related reason, which I asked for clarification on. That's the one point that stuck out as odd to me. I thought I had missed something there.
The other, which I don't think we can completely rule out, was that a mafia member could not have read those early posts and based on the information available at that time tossed out the scummy role theory. It's unlikely, yes, but not impossible.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
RELAPSED MAFIA JUNKIE
W – 33, L – 19, Broke Games - 9
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
Part of me thinks that either Puzzle or Az is Scum. Why? because if you were both town (I'm going back to Epee/Puzzle from 8-bit) you would be agreeing, or if you were both scum you would both agree (the latter is closer to true). Anyone agree?
Only in a perfect world.
Quote from Xyre »
I think Jobie's right. It seems strange that both Azrael and Puzzle are fighting with each other on the same side. Of course, it could be misinformation, but I doubt that they would be misinformed to the point of disagreeing. The last time I saw this type of discussion was between Puzzle and Epeeguy (as Jobie said), and they were both on different sides.>.> (Of course, considering Puzzle's behavior, it could have been misconstrued.) I still think Azrael was too ready to jump on the No Lynch train and jump off at the first sign of me getting pulverized by detractors. I still stand by my position that Az was looking for a patsy to take the fall while a No Lynch idea started to spread. Curse you, Azrael, if this is true.
I eagerly await your response to this accusation.
Cause I was totally, completely, utterly serious in voting for no lynch. You had my complete support. Mm hmm.
Also, the whole "either Azrael or Puzzle is scum" argument sounds like a mafia setup, trying to push the town towards a so-called 50-50 trade. But really, the fact that we're arguing means very little: townies argue all the time, scum and townies argue all the time, and occasionally mafia pull gambits like that. If you want to suspect one of us, you should probably take a look at our posts, not use wild speculation to set up a possible false conclusion.
And now, I am scum for not wanting to drop a case because Azrael doesn't give his seal of approval on it. *Takes shotgun*
Obv obv obv.
Quote from Puzzle »
Excuse me ? Then, your argument about Azrael's townieness is utterly bad : he has a cast-iron reputation for gambits of a much bigger size. (Actually, this gambit may sound a bit too small for him)
Although, it's true that most of my anti-town gambits ony occur in forced situations.
I'm really tempted to jump in on the rest of your argument, since it seems as if you're using a measure of sophistry against him, but I'll allow him to stand on his own two feet, for the moment, unless things turn bad. *considers where his vote will land*
Your are here referring to your first answer, not the original post, which is : you are erring on one side or another, depending on the wind, and that is supposed to prove that you didn't contradict yourself.
If you never contradicted yourself, why do you say you erred on one side, then another ? That's the exact definition of a contradiction to me.
He's only changed position twice, as far as I can see, and the two positions weren't drastically different. I don't think you can make a case that he blows with the wind on that alone.
Quote from Puzzle »
Yes, see above.
Then, see below : your own answer to Axelrod. You bring nothing to back up your certitude that step 1 didn't happen except that you don't think Chamber intelligent enough. What makes you think that ? His only other games are the Newbie and Random 1 as far as I know. Where did he show lack of intelligence ?
He never questions his intelligence in that post: he questions Chamber's ability to read minds.
Quote from puzzle »
Saying you agree on something is information and isn't scummy of it involves taking a risk. Approval of the obvious means taking 0 risk and then falls in the category of "false-help-to-look-nice".
Townies don't like to look nice, too? Townies don't say the obvious, too?
Quote from Puzzle »
If I ignored it, what are you answering to here ? The fact that you have to admit the scumminess of your behaviour there doesn't make it any less scummy.
He already admitted that it's scummy, what else are you trying to get from him?
Quote from Puzzle »
So, you brought and repeated an argument that if Xyre was a noob, he was more likely to be scum. You insisted because you wanted to be sure. Then, when his newbieness is confirmed, you thought it means nothing. You answered why you insisted and dropped the ball once the answer came : because it wasn't important. I still don't get why you insisted and characteritize the answer in anticipation if it wasn't important. Should we deduce that all you say that sounds scummy is not important ?
Now, why didn't you correct your position that him being newbie tended to prove his scumminess ?
That first sentence is complete and utter misrepresentation. He said that he became increasingly suspicious that Xyre might be a n00b, but wanted to confirm it anyways.
Quote from Puzzle »
Then, why have you been voting him ? Why was your vote still on him when you made these comments ?
And what about your later #322 : Which one is it ? You thought him innocent or scummy ? Scummy innocent seems to be the answer, but then why your vote in the first place and why the late unvote ? Your answers aren'T convincing at all on those.
It's not uncommon to put mild pressure on someone you believe is probably innocent, in order to test them.
Quote from Puzzle »
I am pressing you so hard because you seem to dip further and further with your answers. As for ignoring your argument about Chamber's innocence (a scum Chamber is not intelligent enough to have understood that after at least one townie said his claim sounded scummy, him saying his role was scummy-sounding was not risky), I am not ignoring it, I am saying that I disagree on its base and asking you to explain why you think Chamber is not intelligent enough.
Prove this to me.
Again, misrepresentation stemming from an earlier misintrepretation.
Quote from Puzzle »
Once again, what makes you think that Chamber is not intelligent enough ?
More of the same.
Quote from Puzzle »
You were presenting the exact opposite during your vote on him : that if experienced, chances of him being scum were lessened and if newbie increased. No contradiction here either ?
I can. Glad to see that you realized it now. Sad to see you didn't earlier. What made you realize ?
In what does it make him any clearer ? And what about before that point ?
Ditto.
Quote from Puzzle »
Really ? Let me quote #255 :Thank you for your contribution. You may proceed to the nearest extermination center.
You're vastly, vastly overstating your case here.
Still, I'm conflicted over whether to vote against you, or not. You seem to be trying very hard to make a case and create a viable wagon on scant evidence, which is a classic scum tell. One of my favorites, actually. But I wonder if you would be so bold or reckless as to intentionally do so, or whether you didn't intend to do so, but merely wanted to make a case against him for one reason or another. And then there's the matter of your semi-claiming an information role to consider (or something like that).
Well I really wish I knew what to think. I still think that Xyre is the most scummy player here but I will except it is possible that he is a newb. FOS: Xyre. Also sgdre does seem a little scummy but his mistakes seem alot more newb town than scum, unlike Xyre in my opinion, and so he will also get a FOS. FOS: sgdre
All in all I have been lurking the last two days because I am unsure what to think. The Puzzle/Az exchanges are interesting but I do not think either has said anything compormising and I think they are both probably town.
You know, it seems the strongest point made in all of this is that Puzzle has actually caught sgdre in a contradiction, which Azreal either did not see or considers insignificant. To repeat:
In post #250, sgdre gave a numbered list of reasons to be suspicious of Xyre, and closed with this remark:
Quote from sgdre »
So, while I dont have any issues with talking it out, I dont think that Xyre should live through the day unless something extremely odd happens.
Most people would interpret that as a strong statement of belief of guilt. Sgdre has denied this, however, and now says:
Quote from sgdre »
I think that people are misinterpreting post 250. I am right on the cusp of unvoting Xyre to slow the waggon/allow for disscusion/am less sure of his scummitude than before, but want to make sure that people keep track of points weighing against him. I am also reaffirming my belief that he has been the scummiest thus far. My proof that this was my state of mind? I unvote less that 20 minutes later BEFORE reading any sort of response to my post (Az made a response in between but I didnt refresh before posting and thus didnt see it. This is supposed to be the time frame in which I realize the town doesnt want to lynch Xyre and get off? What would have convinced me?
Now wait. He was "right on the cusp of unvoting?" He "didn't see" Azreal's post? This is wrong. In the post where sgdre unvotes, as Puzzle mentioned, he clearly indicated he had seen Azreal's post, and agreed with it. For him to claim that his "unvote" was unprompted by any other posts (and therefore, for it to actually support the point he was trying to make) is inaccurate.
I actually remember being uneasy with the whole "wise words" remark when he first made it, since I seems to see posts like that more from mafia trying to suck up than from townies.
Now, it's not a criminal offense to misremember something that happened several days ago, but I would like hear from sgdre just on that point--i.e. did you remember incorrectly what happened, and if so, what does that mean for your point (or do I have it wrong?)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Only twice : Who changes more than that on a day 1 ?
As for not being drastically different, I'll admit that I consider willing to lynch a townie and finding him innocent like a new-born are drastically different.
I think that if you're going to jump on someone for having a pattern of switching sides, then you have to wait long enough for a pattern to actually develop. So there's rarely going to be a situation where you can use that tell convincingly, day one.
Quote from Puzzle »
I wouldn't have gone for him based on that alone, obviously, but scums tend to do that much more than townies, imo. There's recently been an excellent example of what happens when scums manage to please townies enough to direct them.
Fair.
Quote from Puzzle »
Should I let him say that i ignored it, then ?
Did he say that?
Quote from Puzzle »
That's not my reading of #195 :For me, he there implies that if Xyre is a newbie, that would make sense for him to be scum. Am I imagining things again ?
I'd take this opportunity to add setup speculation to the case just to hear you say "newbie error" again but I actually think it's a fair point, in fact.
Kinda. At that post, he seems to be saying that Xyre is inexperienced, and that it's hard to imagine him making those kinds of mistakes as an experienced scum. I think it would have made more sense and been less confusing not to have made that post at all: it seems pretty clear Xyre isn't an old hand at this.
Quote from Puzzle »
I'll assume "mild" is directed to me. :redface:
Well, when I want to test someone, I ask him questions, actually. Where are his, apart from the newbie-or-not ?
As for the mild pressure, Xyre was cracking, as his claim showed, so I don't think the timing of this vote was particularly mild.
True.
Quote from Puzzle »
Am I ? What did I say that is overstating the case ? I just underlined two sentences in quotes from his posts. What do you find so overwhelming ?
I think saying that we should immediately march him into the gas chamber is a kind of exaggerating your case.
Quote from Puzzle »
As you can see, I have shrunk Sgdre's case to just four core points :
- the 2 changes of heart, each time following the town.
- the "pressure" vote, that is admitted to be scummy by everyone, I think.
- the "newbie mafia" comment in #195.
- the "I didn't see Az's post" and "Wise words, Az", which I perceive as a lie. (this is where you say it isn't)
You think all they are all scant evidence. I don't. How much more have you ever seen on a day one ?
The first I think is minor, unless we see a developing pattern. Not likely, now that we've mentioned it.
The pressure vote is scummy.
The newbie mafia is just a weirdly constructed thought that makes little or no sense, but isn't a logical error that would cast unnecessary suspicion on xyre.
The inconsistency is odd, I'd like to see him reply to that as well.
Quote from Puzzle »
I AM NOT THE FOURTH FAN. I NEVER, EVER FRIGGING SEMI-CLAIM or HIDE CLAIM.
What have I said again ?...
Actually, yes, where is my semi-claim ?
I know exactly where it is, but exploring that further and having you clarify that might not be a good idea at this juncture, if the mafia haven't found it yet.
Quote from Axelrod »
You know, it seems the strongest point made in all of this is that Puzzle has actually caught sgdre in a contradiction, which Azreal either did not see or considers insignificant. To repeat:
In post #250, sgdre gave a numbered list of reasons to be suspicious of Xyre, and closed with this remark:
Most people would interpret that as a strong statement of belief of guilt. Sgdre has denied this, however, and now says:
Now wait. He was "right on the cusp of unvoting?" He "didn't see" Azreal's post? This is wrong. In the post where sgdre unvotes, as Puzzle mentioned, he clearly indicated he had seen Azreal's post, and agreed with it. For him to claim that his "unvote" was unprompted by any other posts (and therefore, for it to actually support the point he was trying to make) is inaccurate.
I actually remember being uneasy with the whole "wise words" remark when he first made it, since I seems to see posts like that more from mafia trying to suck up than from townies.
Now, it's not a criminal offense to misremember something that happened several days ago, but I would like hear from sgdre just on that point--i.e. did you remember incorrectly what happened, and if so, what does that mean for your point (or do I have it wrong?)
That seems a little odd alright. *looks over history of thread, sees a few other posts pertaining to the situation, becomes more confused*
Wish I had more time to look that over, I think Xyre had one or two other posts pertaining to that situation. Gotta run now though, hopefully he'll try to clarify that a bit.
I have avoided commenting on sgdre's case up until now, because, well, it’s a lot of work to comment at this point. I was suspicious of sgdre before puzzle brought the case before the town for many of the same reasons, but felt he hadn’t done anything to kill himself yet. By not mentioning it to the town I hopped he would make more mistakes that would incriminate him further. With that said, by bringing the case to the towns attention puzzle seems to have caught sgdre in a fairly bad contradiction. I will give him time to explain, however if an acceptable answer isn’t provided I think he will be by far the best lynch we could hope for on day one.
@puzzle I felt/feel my logic was acceptable, I wasn’t saying he was 100% cleared, but it seemed to me he had a good chance of being town. If it is true that my logic is flawed then perhaps this speaks in sgdre’s favor as it certainly makes me look stupid.
YAY, more super long puzzle posts to respond to! (if you want the short version of this post, I am innocent and didnt make the huge lie puzzle claimed I did)
Quote from Puzzle »
Your are here referring to your first answer, not the original post, which is : you are erring on one side or another, depending on the wind, and that is supposed to prove that you didn't contradict yourself.
If you never contradicted yourself, why do you say you erred on one side, then another ? That's the exact definition of a contradiction to me.[quote]
Again, this is misrepresenting me. It is not a contradiction to say that I dont know what should be towny info and what shouldnt and then end up being wrong about two cases. Please stop saying that this is a contradiction, because it isnt.
[QUOTE] Yes, see above.
Then, see below : your own answer to Axelrod. You bring nothing to back up your certitude that step 1 didn't happen except that you don't think Chamber intelligent enough. What makes you think that ? His only other games are the Newbie and Random 1 as far as I know. Where did he show lack of intelligence ?
I dont think that Chamber is dumb. I made a post last night to make that very point. Please read it. I am an intelligent person. I did not realize what chamber did even though I am a scummy sounding towny. It is not as easy to realize as you imply it is (certainly not simple reading).
Saying you agree on something is information and isn't scummy of it involves taking a risk. Approval of the obvious means taking 0 risk and then falls in the category of "false-help-to-look-nice".
Neato. See Az's response.
If I ignored it, what are you answering to here ? The fact that you have to admit the scumminess of your behaviour there doesn't make it any less scummy.
I dont even know what you are referencing here, or what point you are trying to make.
So, you brought and repeated an argument that if Xyre was a noob, he was more likely to be scum. You insisted because you wanted to be sure. Then, when his newbieness is confirmed, you thought it means nothing. You answered why you insisted and dropped the ball once the answer came : because it wasn't important. I still don't get why you insisted and characteritize the answer in anticipation if it wasn't important. Should we deduce that all you say that sounds scummy is not important ?
Now, why didn't you correct your position that him being newbie tended to prove his scumminess ?
I didnt say that if Xyre was a newb he would be more likely to be a scum. I say that I couldnt understand him making those mistakes if he was an experianced scum, and I was CURIOUS about how many games he had played. I certainly never implied that Xyre being a newby would prove his scumminess. You made that up.
Then, why have you been voting him ? Why was your vote still on him when you made these comments ?
And what about your later #322 : Which one is it ? You thought him innocent or scummy ? Scummy innocent seems to be the answer, but then why your vote in the first place and why the late unvote ? Your answers aren'T convincing at all on those.
When have I ever said that I thought Xyre to be innocent? I have consistantly said that he has done many scummy thing. I have never since voting for him said that I am convinced of his innocence.
I am pressing you so hard because you seem to dip further and further with your answers. As for ignoring your argument about Chamber's innocence (a scum Chamber is not intelligent enough to have understood that after at least one townie said his claim sounded scummy, him saying his role was scummy-sounding was not risky), I am not ignoring it, I am saying that I disagree on its base and asking you to explain why you think Chamber is not intelligent enough.
Prove this to me.
See above (towards top).
Once again, what makes you think that Chamber is not intelligent enough ?
See above.
You were presenting the exact opposite during your vote on him : that if experienced, chances of him being scum were lessened and if newbie increased. No contradiction here either ?
This is blatently false. I never said that if Xyre was a newb he was scum. I said that I could not see him being an experianced scum. Also, I do not think that I was pressing to find out Xyre's experiance level that hard. I had asked a question and I wanted it answered.
I can. Glad to see that you realized it now. Sad to see you didn't earlier. What made you realize ?
I have been reading through more games on mafiascum
In what does it make him any clearer ? And what about before that point ?
These questions dont really make sense. What are you trying to get at. I revealed the fact that I thought chamber was innocent because I didnt know better at the time. I think we just went over that.
Really ? Let me quote #255 :Thank you for your contribution. You may proceed to the nearest extermination center.
Well, luckily for me, this is not a lie. When I say "Wise words Az," I am refering to post 252.
[quote=Az] This reminds me very much of the imhungry situation in blind mafia: silly, but not scum. The errors he's made are damaging to him alone, they haven't done much of anything to harm the town. Yes, following the no lynch plan would have been "special", but for anyone to suggest a no lynch at this stage is pure inexperience, whether they're noob or scum. And the overreaction to a quickly mounting wagon is also understandable, in the context of inexperience and being shocked by a quick, hostile response to his no lynch comment.
So I'd be more inclined to leave him be for a while longer, and keep an eye or two on him. He has points against him, but the town has been reckless pushing him so close to a lynch, this quickly. I strongly suspect mafia involvement in that.[quote]
This was before Az (or anyone else) responded to my post 250. I was being 100% honest when I said that I had not read post 253 (which occured 12 minutes later) when I made my unvote. That said, I did forget that I had read a post of Az's before inbetween 250 and 255 and I apologize for any confusion it may have caused.
Puzzle. Are these answers sufficient? I would rather not continue to quote back and forth in these long posts as I feel that it clogs the thread and makes it easy to lose sight of what we are actually talking about. Trying reviewing what I have said and rethinking my case.
At this point, I am really not feeling the Sgrde wagon.
To my mind, its basically a LAL thing, right? And there are times when townies do lie for pro town reasons (hi, I'm billking, I'm a cop) and particualarly for a very inexperienced player like sgrde, I think it's plausible for him to do that as a townie.
Also, consider this: Assuming he is a mafia, what exactly does he gain through that lie, or rather tha switching of position?
@ Rhino: I understand LAL, but i didnt lie (an important aspect of the theory). I realize that you are not calling me out for being scummy, but your post suggests that I lied when I had just explained what happened in the previous post.
@ Rhino: I understand LAL, but i didnt lie (an important aspect of the theory). I realize that you are not calling me out for being scummy, but your post suggests that I lied when I had just explained what happened in the previous post.
Regardless, that's how it was construed by puzzle.
I don't have enough fingers and toes to point at all of this town.
Are you missing any?
I really think that the case against sgdre is weak. None the evidence seems at all fatal, not even all together, and sgdre has explained himself well enough for me. Perhaps we should start looking at lurkers. Swinkee, silicon, and Leinali have all been quiet and haven't really made any contribution thus far.
All in all I have been lurking the last two days because I am unsure what to think.
I agree. I've been keeping up with the posts, but things go back and forth so quickly that I'm not sure what to think.
Quote from Rhinocero »
Well, Leilani says she has mono.
Although I'm starting to doubt that.
Everyone knows that girls don't exist on the internet. LAL, amirite?
I hope this is a joke. I know it's the internet and everything, but that kind of bothers me that you don't believe me.
what on earth does "LAL" mean, anyway?
Quite honestly, I haven't posted because I have nothing to say. I've just been following the discussions, trying to understand what's going on before we shift attention to someone else. This is only my third or fourth mafia game ever, so I'm still learning a little.
I have to go, time for a nap. I'll try and keep up!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I know it seems that I don't care, but something in me does I swear.
[gaymers]
founder of the MTGS Forum Pirates
'tar/banner by R&Doom.
And I still have nothing to say except that Puzzle and Az now seem to be repeating points and derailing Day 1. Please continue for at least another day but if no headway is made I think we need look eslewhere.
I actually think the case on SGDRE looks rather strong. And to me none of these responses are making me feel any better, many of them amount to "you're lying about me lying/contradicting myself" unvote:chamber fos chamber vote SGDRE
And I still have nothing to say except that Puzzle and Az now seem to be repeating points and derailing Day 1. Please continue for at least another day but if no headway is made I think we need look eslewhere.
I would disagree that Az is derailing the day. I think that Puzzle definately seems to be derailing the day by his arguments against me. I feel that I have repeatedly been answering the same questions (although admitidly, the thought that I was lying was new. I can see where you were coming from there). Maybe it is time to move the focus away from me?
I am going to pre-emptively mention that I am not redirecting the thread myself because, due to my defense, I have not really been able to search for scum as hard as I should be. I will hopefully be able to do some re-reading and thinking over the weekend (no school on friday for me!) if this wagon on me disolves.
Wow, sorry about the double post (honest, I am)
/me solemly swears to hit the "preview post" button before every post so that he hopefully wont have to do this again
Quote from Enigma91 »
I actually think the case on SGDRE looks rather strong. And to me none of these responses are making me feel any better, many of them amount to "you're lying about me lying/contradicting myself" unvote:chamber fos chamber vote SGDRE
This is extremely vague. What responses are you unsatisfied with? Also, when have I accused Puzzle of lying? I say that his is misrepresenting me because he is. When there is a conflict between what I say happened and what Puzzle says happened, why not read the original post and figure out for yourself what happened? I dont understand this vote at all.
I'm satisfied that SGdre has defended himself successfully up to this point. As for where to go next, I think a review of the Xyre wagon period of the thread is in order.
Quite honestly, I haven't posted because I have nothing to say
Same here, I have no clue what to do from here. I think i will need to re-read everything (again :banghead:).
~~~~Questions that I want anwered~~~~~
I know that i have been have nothing, for a while but is there something that I need to look for when re-reading?
Am I looking over something that I really need to read?
[Shoots self in foot] So yeah...It's like the 2000 U.S. Presidental elections all over again...I personally think that because there's nothing else to go on right now, people are jumping on the new players a bit more than normal. If someone has the time to do some research into the post patterns of Az and Puz, and find out if they have disagreed on EVERY topic, then we all decide that they should agree to disagree and get a divorce. They are both way too good of players to not have planned this out, or are TOO good and didn't have too. Either way, this is crazy...|-_-|'
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
-[thread=14456]The [Untitled] Avatar and Sig shop![/thread] Avatar from:[thread=25376] [Epic Graphics][/thread]
I'm satisfied that SGdre has defended himself successfully up to this point. As for where to go next, I think a review of the Xyre wagon period of the thread is in order.
Meaning reviewing the people who voted me, or reviewing my vote (which you did follow)?
[Shoots self in foot] So yeah...It's like the 2000 U.S. Presidental elections all over again...I personally think that because there's nothing else to go on right now, people are jumping on the new players a bit more than normal. If someone has the time to do some research into the post patterns of Az and Puz, and find out if they have disagreed on EVERY topic, then we all decide that they should agree to disagree and get a divorce. They are both way too good of players to not have planned this out, or are TOO good and didn't have too. Either way, this is crazy...|-_-|'
FOS: WellOfLostGnomes for false dillemma
Jobie, Xyre, and now WoTG have posted false dillemmas.
Out of these people, I'm most suspicious of Xyre because he has done other stuff that is somewhat suspicious:
1. He voted no lynch - this is actually not really a scum tell per se. It's more of a n00b thing at this point.
2. He claimed with almost no pressure. This is pretty scummy, and also something he could have done with good reason as a mafia.
3. He claimed vanilla. AS I said before, his role is plausible, but vanilla townies are always easy to roleclaim as scum.
4. He posted/agreed with a false dilemna (one of Az and Puzzle must be scum). The most scummy thing he's done all day.
Ergo, for discussion purposes and because I think at the moment that he is the scummiest person on the board, VOTE: Xyre.
I'll agree that Xyre looks bad, but I'm still not ready to abandon sgdre. The case against him really is quite strong, culminating with his explination of post 250. I simply cannot buy that he didn't want a lynch at that point.
As for what he would have to gain if he were mafia, he initially brought these intentions up to refute an inconsistancy between posts 250 and 255, were the sudden change in heart gives him distance from a wagon that was in danger of losing steam. It also makes him look good should Xyre end up being lynched and turns up town.
Also, the main problem I have with his defence is that there is a lot of 'no, it didn't happen that way' to Puzzle's pointing out of scummy actions. He's not really showing how they aren't scummy, just denying that they ever happened.
Hmm.. been pretty busy lately, but finally found some time to post... first and foremost, I'm going to fos sgdre. Puzzle brings up some pretty good points about him, but I haven't been overwhelmed by the case Puzzle is putting together. Of course, I haven't been overwhelmed by sgdre's responses either. As for Xyre, well I haven't gotten a real strong vibe from him either way. As for the Puzzle/Az arguments, well I don't know what started them, it's given me some good stuff to think over.
Quote from sgdre »
I would disagree that Az is derailing the day. I think that Puzzle definately seems to be derailing the day by his arguments against me.
Of course you don't feel Az is derailing the day, a good number of his statements have been at least mildly in support of you. And Puzzle has been attacking you, that's most definately derailing the day.
Quote from sgdre »
Maybe it is time to move the focus away from me?
Maybe. But we can't completely turn away from you. I'll be watching with a good deal of interest.
I think I'm still quite fine with my vote on SGDRE. for reasons stated ever so eloquently(sp?) by ikerr
But I'd also be fine looking into xyre, though this could easily be his posting style that bugs me fos:xyre
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
I don't have any hidden information.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
Wow, looks like I missed all the action.
Xyre has been about the scummiest I have ever seen, but I'm having difficulty coming up with a reason of why a mafia would do what he did. The mafia was never in a position to get enough information to warrant sacrificing one of their members like that. The best they could have hoped for is a solid roleclaim for one of their weaker members, but that was unlikely to have worked given his other scummy actions.
Now on to the other target: sgdre
You have contradicted yourself with regards to your intentions on the Xyre vote. You stated in your defence to Puzzle that you had never seriously wanted to lynch Xyre, when your post #250 clearly shows your intention to lynch him.
It also took only a couple of posts from Azrael to convince you to jump off of the wagon, when those posts were being questioned by SorryGuy. So, the moment any steam is taken out of the wagon, you are quick to distance yourself, and move on to the next target, again when you were thirsty for Xyre's blood just 4 posts prior.
Step one did happen. Azrael's post #27 basically stated that he had a scummy-sounding name. I don't think its a huge leap for a mafia member, knowing that Azrael isn't mafia, to assume that at least some townies have scummy names and to want to confirm that.
Overall, I'm not happy with sgdre's reponses to his actions on the Xyre wagon and a willing to Vote: sgdre at this point.
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
No it didnt. Post #250 shows that there were several important things about Xyre that needed to be considered, and that I thought he was scummy. By that point I was already about to unvote so that we wouldnt rush into a lynch, as evidenced by the fact that I unvoted so soon after.
I dont understand what you are getting at here. Who cares if SorryGuy questions the posts? Also, I would hardly say the steam was out of the wagon. I could have easily stayed on for much longer than I was. As I have repeatedly stated, I was not "thirsty for Xyre's blood" ever, and I certainly wasnt on the post you are referencing.
No it didnt. Post 27 said that he didnt want to claim. Are you telling me that while you read that you immediately assumed that Az was saying he had a scummy sounding name? Az has since stated that people should not presume to know what he meant in that post. It is not a logical step to assume that Az is a townie with a scummy name. Also, if a mafia member did figure this out, I doubt that it would be Chamber (not a jab a Chamber, I didnt get it with more info, just saying that I dont see him coming up with this play as mafia)
Why arent you happy? Many of your points seem redundant to accusations from puzzle that I have already responded to.
oh and in my previous post i meant abridged not belated.
Scummy = wanting to lynch = Vote: Sgdre
Then why did you get off the wagon?
I agree, I'm curious about this too
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
EWP: O, and I think claiming that I was contradictary in admonishing chamber for revealing info while doing it myself is weak. I have admitted to being unsure of what should be public knowledge and what shouldnt. In fact, the longer I play, the more I think that it is incorrect to reveal feelings that someone is innocent unless they are being targeted for a lynch (can someone experianced confirm this?). The only reason that I continue/d to defend Chamber is that puzzle was questioning my defense of him to make me seem scummy.
@ Jobie: In the post of my unvote I explain that I got off the Xyre waggon "for discussion purposes." I dont see why you are voting me because I wanted to continue to talk about things. Also, while I removed my vote, I did comment on things that I thought were important to keep in mind about Xyre (the 250 post in which I reveal my inner bloodlust [/sarcasm])
*cough* I was voting for you for discussion reasons.
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Both of them seem like n00bs, so they could or could not be scum; all of the present discussion seems sorta irrelevant.
One thing that did seem a mite suspicious is that MoT basically said that he was voting Sgrde solely for the sake of information, which seems sort of scummy to me, so FOS MoT and also Sgrde
Again, this is the post where you want to lynch Xyre. I honestly don't see how anything else could be construed from it. I don't see any indication that you were getting ready to unvote.
The next bit I worded a little poorly, what I was trying to say was that you were too eager to distance yourself from the wagon as soon as the slightest hint of not lynching Xyre arose. My comments regarding SorrGuy were just to emphasize how slight that hint was.
From Azrael's post, the most logical conclusion is that he has a name that would not be believed to be town. Why? Because it sounds scummy. I'm not saying that this is definately the case, but I could see someone sure enough about that to act on it.
Basically, they are. The thing that I am least happy about is your refusal that you wanted to lynch Xyre in post #250 when I can't see any other way for that post to be interpreted.
I didn't say that I was sure that Az was town, I was just proposing a circumstance where sgdre's logic in defending Chamber fails, namely if Chamber is mafia. Namely, sgdre's theory is correct assuming Chamber is town, but the play would be the same if he was mafia. Az was only assumed to be town in this scenario, because that is the only way for a mafia Chamber to follow the hint he dropped. Basically, I don't think we can be sure of either of them.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I think that people are misinterpreting post 250. I am right on the cusp of unvoting Xyre to slow the waggon/allow for disscusion/am less sure of his scummitude than before, but want to make sure that people keep track of points weighing against him. I am also reaffirming my belief that he has been the scummiest thus far. My proof that this was my state of mind? I unvote less that 20 minutes later BEFORE reading any sort of response to my post (Az made a response in between but I didnt refresh before posting and thus didnt see it. This is supposed to be the time frame in which I realize the town doesnt want to lynch Xyre and get off? What would have convinced me?
Also, I was confused because SorryGuy was supporting the lynch, so his comments had little to do with changing my mind.
I think that it was really less of a change in mindset than people make it out to be. I didnt go from thinking Xyre was scum to thinking him innocent. I went from realizing that Xyre was doing very scummy things and wanting to get answers out of him/applying pressure to him to attributing most (if not all) of the mistakes to newbness. Try rereading post 250 in context from the mindset that Im saying I was in to see if it makes sense.
I dont understand at all what you are implying/doing. Obviously Az joined your wagon intentionally. What does the second sentence mean?
Oh, and about the second sentence, what may have happened is he saw me start it and joined, using me as the fallguy while starting a train for no lynch.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
READ POSTS BEFORE YOU POST THEM. HENCE THE REVIEW POST BUTTON!!!!
Yes, it must be very flattering. It may also be very revealing. That's why they are doing it.
It was not that long ago someone said nearly the exact same thing about me in a mafia game and they were completely wrong. It's a dangerous assumption to make, at this point in the game, that Chamber is incapable of making that guess as a mafia member. I'm not saying that I think that he is mafia, just that I can't rule him out and certainly not based on your not seeing the possibility at that time.
It is possible that they are simply disagreeing, either deliberately or genuinely. Neither seems to me to be playing the devil's advocate though.
As Axelrod said Azrael was not the only person who made a post either intentionally or unintentionally indicating that there were role names that could be conssidered scummy sounding. Judging from the few posts I saw I'd say that at least a couple of the posts were intentional.
You are the second person to question Chamber's ability, regardless of whether or not he is mafia, to make the connection regarding townies with scummy sounding roles.
Why? I don't know chamber from prior games like I do some other players but I don't see him as incapable of coming up with that observation. This maybe completely inconsequential but I'd like to know, why two people now have made or agreed with this assumption?
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
I eagerly await your response to this accusation.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
The part that is important to the wagon on me though is the fact that I thought that at the time. It is irrelavent what I currently think about Chamber and whether or not he is confirmed towny.
I guess I misunderstood the point or points you were making. I thought you were making two points. One that Chamber was incapable of coming up with that conclusion because of some ability related reason, which I asked for clarification on. That's the one point that stuck out as odd to me. I thought I had missed something there.
The other, which I don't think we can completely rule out, was that a mafia member could not have read those early posts and based on the information available at that time tossed out the scummy role theory. It's unlikely, yes, but not impossible.
Calvin & Hobbs Mafia, Mafia MVP
X-Men Mafia Town MVP
Simpson's Mafia - best use of character
Mtgnews Mafia Mafia - Town Madman
Mythos Mafia: the Dunwich Massacre Town MVP
English Literature Mafia Town MVP
Best Role-Playing Sin City Mafia
Werewolf Mafia - Mafia MVP
Doctor Mafia - Mafia MVP
Mafia: Escape from the Cylons - Town MVP
Lost Mafia - Co SK Winner with Kops
Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
Only in a perfect world.
Cause I was totally, completely, utterly serious in voting for no lynch. You had my complete support. Mm hmm.
Also, the whole "either Azrael or Puzzle is scum" argument sounds like a mafia setup, trying to push the town towards a so-called 50-50 trade. But really, the fact that we're arguing means very little: townies argue all the time, scum and townies argue all the time, and occasionally mafia pull gambits like that. If you want to suspect one of us, you should probably take a look at our posts, not use wild speculation to set up a possible false conclusion.
False dilemma = teh scummy
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Obv obv obv.
Although, it's true that most of my anti-town gambits ony occur in forced situations.
I'm really tempted to jump in on the rest of your argument, since it seems as if you're using a measure of sophistry against him, but I'll allow him to stand on his own two feet, for the moment, unless things turn bad. *considers where his vote will land*
He's only changed position twice, as far as I can see, and the two positions weren't drastically different. I don't think you can make a case that he blows with the wind on that alone.
He never questions his intelligence in that post: he questions Chamber's ability to read minds.
Townies don't like to look nice, too? Townies don't say the obvious, too?
He already admitted that it's scummy, what else are you trying to get from him?
That first sentence is complete and utter misrepresentation. He said that he became increasingly suspicious that Xyre might be a n00b, but wanted to confirm it anyways.
It's not uncommon to put mild pressure on someone you believe is probably innocent, in order to test them.
Again, misrepresentation stemming from an earlier misintrepretation.
More of the same.
Ditto.
You're vastly, vastly overstating your case here.
Still, I'm conflicted over whether to vote against you, or not. You seem to be trying very hard to make a case and create a viable wagon on scant evidence, which is a classic scum tell. One of my favorites, actually. But I wonder if you would be so bold or reckless as to intentionally do so, or whether you didn't intend to do so, but merely wanted to make a case against him for one reason or another. And then there's the matter of your semi-claiming an information role to consider (or something like that).
It's an interesting puzzle, indeed.
All in all I have been lurking the last two days because I am unsure what to think. The Puzzle/Az exchanges are interesting but I do not think either has said anything compormising and I think they are both probably town.
In post #250, sgdre gave a numbered list of reasons to be suspicious of Xyre, and closed with this remark:
Most people would interpret that as a strong statement of belief of guilt. Sgdre has denied this, however, and now says:
Now wait. He was "right on the cusp of unvoting?" He "didn't see" Azreal's post? This is wrong. In the post where sgdre unvotes, as Puzzle mentioned, he clearly indicated he had seen Azreal's post, and agreed with it. For him to claim that his "unvote" was unprompted by any other posts (and therefore, for it to actually support the point he was trying to make) is inaccurate.
I actually remember being uneasy with the whole "wise words" remark when he first made it, since I seems to see posts like that more from mafia trying to suck up than from townies.
Now, it's not a criminal offense to misremember something that happened several days ago, but I would like hear from sgdre just on that point--i.e. did you remember incorrectly what happened, and if so, what does that mean for your point (or do I have it wrong?)
I think that if you're going to jump on someone for having a pattern of switching sides, then you have to wait long enough for a pattern to actually develop. So there's rarely going to be a situation where you can use that tell convincingly, day one.
Fair.
Did he say that?
Kinda. At that post, he seems to be saying that Xyre is inexperienced, and that it's hard to imagine him making those kinds of mistakes as an experienced scum. I think it would have made more sense and been less confusing not to have made that post at all: it seems pretty clear Xyre isn't an old hand at this.
True.
I think saying that we should immediately march him into the gas chamber is a kind of exaggerating your case.
The first I think is minor, unless we see a developing pattern. Not likely, now that we've mentioned it.
The pressure vote is scummy.
The newbie mafia is just a weirdly constructed thought that makes little or no sense, but isn't a logical error that would cast unnecessary suspicion on xyre.
The inconsistency is odd, I'd like to see him reply to that as well.
I know exactly where it is, but exploring that further and having you clarify that might not be a good idea at this juncture, if the mafia haven't found it yet.
That seems a little odd alright. *looks over history of thread, sees a few other posts pertaining to the situation, becomes more confused*
Wish I had more time to look that over, I think Xyre had one or two other posts pertaining to that situation. Gotta run now though, hopefully he'll try to clarify that a bit.
@puzzle I felt/feel my logic was acceptable, I wasn’t saying he was 100% cleared, but it seemed to me he had a good chance of being town. If it is true that my logic is flawed then perhaps this speaks in sgdre’s favor as it certainly makes me look stupid.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
I dont think that Chamber is dumb. I made a post last night to make that very point. Please read it. I am an intelligent person. I did not realize what chamber did even though I am a scummy sounding towny. It is not as easy to realize as you imply it is (certainly not simple reading).
Neato. See Az's response.
I dont even know what you are referencing here, or what point you are trying to make.
I didnt say that if Xyre was a newb he would be more likely to be a scum. I say that I couldnt understand him making those mistakes if he was an experianced scum, and I was CURIOUS about how many games he had played. I certainly never implied that Xyre being a newby would prove his scumminess. You made that up.
When have I ever said that I thought Xyre to be innocent? I have consistantly said that he has done many scummy thing. I have never since voting for him said that I am convinced of his innocence.
See above (towards top).
See above.
This is blatently false. I never said that if Xyre was a newb he was scum. I said that I could not see him being an experianced scum. Also, I do not think that I was pressing to find out Xyre's experiance level that hard. I had asked a question and I wanted it answered.
I have been reading through more games on mafiascum
These questions dont really make sense. What are you trying to get at. I revealed the fact that I thought chamber was innocent because I didnt know better at the time. I think we just went over that.
Well, luckily for me, this is not a lie. When I say "Wise words Az," I am refering to post 252.
[quote=Az] This reminds me very much of the imhungry situation in blind mafia: silly, but not scum. The errors he's made are damaging to him alone, they haven't done much of anything to harm the town. Yes, following the no lynch plan would have been "special", but for anyone to suggest a no lynch at this stage is pure inexperience, whether they're noob or scum. And the overreaction to a quickly mounting wagon is also understandable, in the context of inexperience and being shocked by a quick, hostile response to his no lynch comment.
So I'd be more inclined to leave him be for a while longer, and keep an eye or two on him. He has points against him, but the town has been reckless pushing him so close to a lynch, this quickly. I strongly suspect mafia involvement in that.[quote]
This was before Az (or anyone else) responded to my post 250. I was being 100% honest when I said that I had not read post 253 (which occured 12 minutes later) when I made my unvote. That said, I did forget that I had read a post of Az's before inbetween 250 and 255 and I apologize for any confusion it may have caused.
Puzzle. Are these answers sufficient? I would rather not continue to quote back and forth in these long posts as I feel that it clogs the thread and makes it easy to lose sight of what we are actually talking about. Trying reviewing what I have said and rethinking my case.
To my mind, its basically a LAL thing, right? And there are times when townies do lie for pro town reasons (hi, I'm billking, I'm a cop) and particualarly for a very inexperienced player like sgrde, I think it's plausible for him to do that as a townie.
Also, consider this: Assuming he is a mafia, what exactly does he gain through that lie, or rather tha switching of position?
Regardless, that's how it was construed by puzzle.
I really think that the case against sgdre is weak. None the evidence seems at all fatal, not even all together, and sgdre has explained himself well enough for me. Perhaps we should start looking at lurkers. Swinkee, silicon, and Leinali have all been quiet and haven't really made any contribution thus far.
[The Family]
Although I'm starting to doubt that.
Everyone knows that girls don't exist on the internet. LAL, amirite?
I agree. I've been keeping up with the posts, but things go back and forth so quickly that I'm not sure what to think.
I hope this is a joke. I know it's the internet and everything, but that kind of bothers me that you don't believe me.
what on earth does "LAL" mean, anyway?
Quite honestly, I haven't posted because I have nothing to say. I've just been following the discussions, trying to understand what's going on before we shift attention to someone else. This is only my third or fourth mafia game ever, so I'm still learning a little.
I have to go, time for a nap. I'll try and keep up!
I know it seems that I don't care,
but something in me does I swear.
[gaymers]
founder of the MTGS Forum Pirates
'tar/banner by R&Doom.
Lynch All Liers.
And he was kidding.
And I still have nothing to say except that Puzzle and Az now seem to be repeating points and derailing Day 1. Please continue for at least another day but if no headway is made I think we need look eslewhere.
I would disagree that Az is derailing the day. I think that Puzzle definately seems to be derailing the day by his arguments against me. I feel that I have repeatedly been answering the same questions (although admitidly, the thought that I was lying was new. I can see where you were coming from there). Maybe it is time to move the focus away from me?
I am going to pre-emptively mention that I am not redirecting the thread myself because, due to my defense, I have not really been able to search for scum as hard as I should be. I will hopefully be able to do some re-reading and thinking over the weekend (no school on friday for me!) if this wagon on me disolves.
Wow, sorry about the double post (honest, I am)
/me solemly swears to hit the "preview post" button before every post so that he hopefully wont have to do this again
This is extremely vague. What responses are you unsatisfied with? Also, when have I accused Puzzle of lying? I say that his is misrepresenting me because he is. When there is a conflict between what I say happened and what Puzzle says happened, why not read the original post and figure out for yourself what happened? I dont understand this vote at all.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Same here, I have no clue what to do from here. I think i will need to re-read everything (again :banghead:).
~~~~Questions that I want anwered~~~~~
I know that i have been have nothing, for a while but is there something that I need to look for when re-reading?
Am I looking over something that I really need to read?
~~~~~
Also I'll UNVOTE.
-[thread=14456]The [Untitled] Avatar and Sig shop![/thread] Avatar from:[thread=25376] [Epic Graphics][/thread]
Awards:
Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
Meaning reviewing the people who voted me, or reviewing my vote (which you did follow)?
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I was the one who saved your life (for some reason), remember?
So, which one would you guess I was thinking of?
*goes to sleep*
FOS: WellOfLostGnomes for false dillemma
Jobie, Xyre, and now WoTG have posted false dillemmas.
Out of these people, I'm most suspicious of Xyre because he has done other stuff that is somewhat suspicious:
1. He voted no lynch - this is actually not really a scum tell per se. It's more of a n00b thing at this point.
2. He claimed with almost no pressure. This is pretty scummy, and also something he could have done with good reason as a mafia.
3. He claimed vanilla. AS I said before, his role is plausible, but vanilla townies are always easy to roleclaim as scum.
4. He posted/agreed with a false dilemna (one of Az and Puzzle must be scum). The most scummy thing he's done all day.
Ergo, for discussion purposes and because I think at the moment that he is the scummiest person on the board, VOTE: Xyre.
As for what he would have to gain if he were mafia, he initially brought these intentions up to refute an inconsistancy between posts 250 and 255, were the sudden change in heart gives him distance from a wagon that was in danger of losing steam. It also makes him look good should Xyre end up being lynched and turns up town.
Also, the main problem I have with his defence is that there is a lot of 'no, it didn't happen that way' to Puzzle's pointing out of scummy actions. He's not really showing how they aren't scummy, just denying that they ever happened.
Of course you don't feel Az is derailing the day, a good number of his statements have been at least mildly in support of you. And Puzzle has been attacking you, that's most definately derailing the day.
Maybe. But we can't completely turn away from you. I'll be watching with a good deal of interest.
Oh, I guess you were, in a way. Sorry.
*gets a pillow*
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
But I'd also be fine looking into xyre, though this could easily be his posting style that bugs me fos:xyre