Welcome to the MUC thread. MUC is a deck that plans to use counterspells and bounce to control the board long enough to ride the convertible turtle to victory. Some lists still include Sphinx Of Jwar Isle as the wincondition.
Okay so since the mods decided to genocide the old DC, I'll start this up again so heres the current sphinxless build.
The cards generally explain themselves, this is an experimental list though. There is still some debate whether the Sphinxless or Sphinx build is best as they both have strengths and weaknesses. In the Sphinxless build you gain the ability to play ALMOST anything at instant speed. With SoJI you lose that quickness but gain a 5/5 shrouded beater.
This list was taken from the old thread and was originally posted by i-never-smile.
The cards in both lists are explained here.
Halimar Depths- This card is amazing for us, it digs for the win condition or counters or draw spells. It gets you what you need.
Quicksand- This will take out Goblin Guides and Hellsparks AND ball Lightnings, It helps a lot vs rdw etc.
Gargoyle Castle- This land can make win cons for you.
The fetchlands- For mysteries of the deep to draw you 3 cards at your opponents EOT.
Islands- Seems good.
Calcite Snapper- I love this card so much. He blocks aggro guys all day long, can't be burnt out and can go on the offensive and win you the game.
Sphinx Of Jwar Isle- SoJI build only run this, but he's a 5/5 flying shroud who lets you look at the top card of your library, essentially in SoJI build he is your main win condition
Gather Specimens- This card will steal you baneslayers to BBE's with Thrinaxes and everything else. It is the main win condition in the non SoJI builds.
Mysteries Of The Deep- This is absolutely essential, it draws cards at your opponents EOT, being able to play almost everything at instant speed is very VERY good.
Essence Scatter- Helps hold off aggro and helps you control the game
Into The Roil- Allows you to bounce things EOT or in response to them attacking, bouncing them EOT to steal them the next turn with gather specimens is always a good play.
Flashfreeze- This gives you ANOTHER 2cc counter which is necessary, if theres a lack of green or red in your meta, please feel free to replace these with Negates/Mindbreak Traps.
Negate- 2cc Counterspell that deals with blightning and eventually will deal with Planeswalkers opponents try to play, or that gamebreaking Cruel Ultimatum
Cancel- A 3cc Hard counter with no drawbacks is needed, the versatility it offers is essential.
Summoner's Bane- We need all the 2-1's we can get, and this offers one. Its essentially a mystic snake that can only counter creatures.
Jace The Mindsculptor- He can come down and gan contorl of board position or offer you CA. He's extremely good for us but is hard to use correctly. You MUST test with him before trying to play this deck seriously.
Wind Zendikon- this is only used in the SoJI build, but he can reuse the quicksand if its enchanted or even gargoyle castles, it also is a 2/2 for 1 with flying, It CAN offer CA.
Sideboards will most likely consist of several cards in common between all lists. my own personal meta is so crowded with aggro its sad so heres my personal SB.
Explanations of each card in the SB are as follows
Hatchling: He stops quick aggro dead in their tracks, he sits there, if they use burn on him thats fine, he takes the burn not you.
Permafrost Trap: I feel this card is SEVERELY underrated. It eats jund all day long, not to mention against RDW it kills sparks/hells thunder/Ball Lightnings. Yeah its good.
Mind Control: This is my own choice, theres a lot of bomby things to take in the format.
Relic Of Progenitus: Dredge decks/vampires/GY shenanigans.
Spreading Seas: An active Emeria can eat you alive, so we make it an Island, the same is true for Valakut.
P.s. Anyone who does fancy shenanigans ie card arts, signatures, and the like PM me, I'd like to make this look better!
I see more vampires and less jund in my meta so flashfreeze gets the boot to the board in favor of negates and traps main. This still gives a good match up against said jund and other similar decks while improving the match against vamps by not having four dead draws. Tetonic Edge is my weapon of choice against Emerias and Valakut which really give this deck trouble but they also work against the bigger man-lands and get sided in against control for a bit of disruption in the midgame which is critical. Jace 2.0 is definantly a powerhouse here and all the abilities are realavent, but replacing him with Jace 1.0 or even Scepter of Insight can provide at least some CA in the game which the deck really needs. Draw engines in the deck will win you games.
The only real bad matchup I have had was against Eldrazi Elves since they board GSS in and it is a difficult threat to answer. Vampires is fair as long as you can keep the Bloodghast recusion under control. Mindbreak Trap helps with that, as does GS. And YES you can nab a ghast with GS since once they decide to resolve the trigger and put it into play priority passes to you and you respond with GS stealing it. The trick is you can steal multiplt ghasts with GS since each trigger resolves individualy. I have not had a chance to play against boros enough but the matches I did play say it is fair at worst. Jund is fairly easy to beat once you hit four lands. Anything after four lands is just extra gas, but they key to beating it is to force them to exhaust thier hand then use Mysteries/Jace to draw a lot of cards and out play them in the CA front. The same is true for almost every match but more so for jund and Naya Lightsaber.
So I don't know if this is relevant to you, fellas, but I saw a guy at my fnm playing wind zendikons in this deck with tec edge main'd. It was really kind of neat.
Right now I'm kinda wondering about the sideboard, I believe that we may need to have Tectonic Edge either one in main or two and the rest in sb because of the man lands and Valakut.
I actually am wondering what is an acceptable answer for those, I guess Spreading Sea does fit the bill now that I think about it.
Not liking the snapper sometimes. I don't want to cut him yet since he block Bloodghast all day long among other things.
I really like the list.
That last spot I'm thinking of Premafrost Trap. The card is nasty and I'm loving the deck's potential to stop and slow downcards like BBE, though the Gather Specimens was amazing when a friend BBE into Thrinax. He said he was playing both and I decided I'd be taking them,
If we were to cut something I'd consider Trap Blue. Find a way to fit in Archive Trap and Trapmaker's Snare for the main kill aside from their creatures that you steal.
I mean to take out 7 cards in this deck is hard I believe though I'd take out the snapper first and then I'd be left scratching my chin over the rest. Maybe take away one of the Gather, Mysteries, and into the roils.
There's no reason Treasure Hunt should not be in these lists. And have you ever thought of running some combination of both Sphinx of Jwar Isle and Calcite Snapper?
Also, Summoner's Bane isn't good. A 2/2 just isn't going to cut it in this format.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"That's the funny thing about free will. You don't feel any different without it."
EDH: RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
Cesco, how much testing have you done with the lists? Please don't think we are stupid, did you LOOK at the OP? The list with SoJI HAS Snapper in it. Also, treasure hunt isn't good enough, it just doesn't cut it. Not enough space and on its own the card does not hold its own weight.
As for Summoners Bane, its a 2-1, and we need as many as we can get. If we're on the play and Jund goes BBE into Thrinax, you counter thrinax and they don't swing with BBE because now you 2-1 them.
EDIT: I didn't mean that to come out like an elitist I'm sorry if you take it that way, Just nagged at me that you didn't really read the OP
Cesco, how much testing have you done with the lists? Please don't think we are stupid, did you LOOK at the OP? The list with SoJI HAS Snapper in it. Also, treasure hunt isn't good enough, it just doesn't cut it. Not enough space and on its own the card does not hold its own weight.
Midget, you do realize that in a 26 card deck, Treasure Hunt will draw 1.75 cards, yes? Draw 2 for 2 is a lot better than Divination.
I"d also recommend cutting a Gather Specimens and Summoner's Bane from the non-Sphinx list and add 2 Sphinx. That's the bane of Jund.
We're not running divination either, and its NOT about what it draws you, its about WHEN. Tapping 5 for mysteries at their EOT is a LOT safer than 2 during your turn letting them play 2 spells on their turn and you lose?
We have tested the differences, and so far to my knowledge the SoJIless build performs BETTER than the SoJI builds. GS is better against Jund than SoJI, you do realize this right?
Cesco, how much testing have you done with the lists? Please don't think we are stupid, did you LOOK at the OP? The list with SoJI HAS Snapper in it. Also, treasure hunt isn't good enough, it just doesn't cut it. Not enough space and on its own the card does not hold its own weight.
Midget, you do realize that in a 26 card deck, Treasure Hunt will draw 1.75 cards, yes? Draw 2 for 2 is a lot better than Divination.
I"d also recommend cutting a Gather Specimens and Summoner's Bane from the non-Sphinx list and add 2 Sphinx. That's the bane of Jund.
You don't understand that playing something at the right time is better than playing something for cheaper.
I'm kinda thinking about losing one of the quicksands for another Island.
I also need to get better at shuffling everything back it again, got several draws of no lands and one land hands just running through the deck.
As far as Magosi, I can understand the card's uses I'm just extremely careful with this card, losing it to a Tectonic Edge after skipping while it was just a turn and a land, it felt like a big deal to me.
I'm actually happy with Summoner's Bane for those who haven't tried it so far. Getting that token in can give you a rest sometimes to drop Jace. I only have two, fortunate because I did pull both, one prerelease and one from my box.
Also, Other than taking an extra turn with Magosi and getting a token down with Summoner's Bane I haven't found a fair turn to drop Jace comfortably.
Usually you will want to drop him around turn 6-7, however if its against control and you don't fear them landing anything tap out on 4 for him. Against most decks they will swing right at jace, essentially you can use him as a fog.
The thing is I really want to keep him around, I usually use his first ability if I am not sure about protecting him and then brainstorm the rest of the game and he wins. The card advantage is insane with him.
Also, Halimar Depths, I'm not having as much fun with it when I see it and I need a land. I know probably bad shuffling but the card sometimes just flops for setting up, I see like one land but it not be enough or something to that extent. IDK if I want to cut it down to three, where I wouldn't see it as much or take it out all together.
If you cut it down to 3 should be fine, just add another island for him. Also, if you cut them completely I'd try to fit ponder in, because honestly you NEED one or the other. I myself am thinking about upping to 27 lands. For the simple fact of ALWAYS needing to get around 5-6 mana by 5th or 6th turn.
Wouldn't adding Day of Judgment, Wall of Denial, Deft Duelist, Oblivion Ring and Path to Exile make this deck better?
Or you could go with Swerve, Double Negative, Chandra, Lightning Bolt, and Earthquake.
Well I guess you want to play MUC for the nostalgia. Fine. But how do you win if Calcite Snapper is your only creature? If they can match your number of creatures, a 4/1 doesn't really beat anything. If you're not playing Sphinx of Jwar Isle, I don't see why you're playing a control deck.
Yes you CAN add white/red, however the deck is effective as Mono Blue, it doesn't NEED white/red.
Also, some lists play Mind Control Aswell, and that will also win games. Tapping out in MONO BLUE negates everything mono blue wants to do, COUNTER, EOT DRAW, BOUNCE EOT. Its bad to do. Hence SoJI got cut.
Ah, yes. I forgot how effective a Veteran Swordsmith is on his own. He's almost as good as Malakir Bloodwitch and Ant Queen is a bomb in blue decks. Don't even get me started on the all-powerful Kazuul Warlord. And seeing as how there's so little spot removal in standard right now, having two average creatures will easily take over the game.[/sarcasm]
Sphinx is way better than Gather Specimens right now.
First of all, no one runs swordsmith, secondly Bloodwitch is hardly played either, MBC runs AP over it and vamps only run 3 if any. Allies is janky and can't really compete
First of all, no one runs swordsmith, secondly Bloodwitch is hardly played either, MBC runs AP over it and vamps only run 3 if any. Allies is janky and can't really compete
Swordsmith is great in Soldiers. If you haven't tried out playing soldiers since Hada Freeblade was spoiled, you'll be in for a real shock. And Swordsmith is generally the best creature in Soldiers, unless you count Ranger of Eos. The deck could possibly run one or two Conqueror's Pledge, but that isn't going to help you win all by itself.
Bloodwitch is the best card to steal in Vampires. The only powerful creatures they play is Nocturnus, which doesn't help in a blue deck.
And if you don't plan around allies, don't bother going to any big tournaments.
Let's just see how Gather Specimens stacks up against the decks that MTGS considers Tier 1. And remember, these are best case scenarios.
Mono Black Vampires- Bloodwitch won't win you the game. It will get hit by Tendrils, or only be able to stop one creature after Nocturnus hits.
UWR control- The deck plays a few Sphinx of Jwar Isle. On the draw, you won't be able to steal it.
Naya- You get a Baneslayer, assuming he didn't get it out on turn 5. I guess it's possible that he get's another one later, but don't count on him topdecking one.
Grixis- Sphinx Of Jwar Isle again.
Jund- Powerful creatures of course. Broodmate Dragon is good here. Of course, they've probably been holding onto tonsofremoval all game, but you'll take your chances.
Boros Bushwhacker- Ranger of Eos is a house, and he's even better in a deck with no 1 cmc creatures.
Eldrazi Green- Maybe you can steal an Avenger of Zendikar. This might actually be a good place to play Gather Specimens.
RDW- I guess you can get that 6 mana Goblin Guide.
Jacerator- Maybe if they play Esper Charm, you can discard this.
Junk- Again, you can steal their Baneslayer or their Persecutor, but only if they draw multiple copies.
One last question: If Gather Specimens is better than Sphinx of Jwar Isle, why does Sphinx cost three times more despite the fact that it came in a precon? And why does it actually see play?
I'm not saying Sphinx is bad, In fact I personally am going to run SoJI in my SB for the above reasons. It replaces GS in matchups where it fails hard. IE Allies/RDW/Boros (without BSA). However I honestly don't believe RDW will be played much and its a good matchup for MUC anyway i know it doesn't seem like it but its really not that bad.
They don't need to draw multiple copies, read Into The Roil Yes Jund can use one of their plentiful removal cards on it, but you just 2-1'ed them. or even 3/4-1ing them. I really think you underestimate the card. I felt the SAME way you did until I played with it, the card is SEVERELY underrated.
The last statement I'll make on this is instant speed is key. It really is, spending 6 mana on a 5/5 that vamps laughs at as they play a kicked gatekeeper, but against vamps GS is on par if not slightly better, Stealing that kicked gatekeeper is goo, stealing a nighthawk and 2-1ing is good even if they use their removal on it. Its all about the card advantage
Mono Black Vampires- Bloodwitch won't win you the game. It will get hit by Tendrils, or only be able to stop one creature after Nocturnus hits.
Really? The best case is a turn five or six BW that will get tendril'd that same turn? That's pretty amazing I hope someone shows me where they spoiled Dark Rit. so that could happen.
Naya- You get a Baneslayer, assuming he didn't get it out on turn 5. I guess it's possible that he get's another one later, but don't count on him topdecking one.
That or the BBE that cascades in to Wholly Thoctar. Again, you are ignoring the 14-16
Jund- Powerful creatures of course. Broodmate Dragon is good here. Of course, they've probably been holding onto tonsofremoval all game, but you'll take your chances.
That or BBE, you know EoT steal followed by counters is good I hear.
RDW- I guess you can get that 6 mana Goblin Guide.
Or we could just not worry about playing GS against this deck. Again low mana creatures are not going to be something we'd waste 6 mana on dealing with.
Jacerator- Maybe if they play Esper Charm, you can discard this.
Again, not playing it against this deck is the way to play. I'd however keep at least two since Flashfreeze would come out for Negates and you would still have a chance to nab a BS which they like to board in when people board out all creature removal. I didn't know that they would run esper charm for all that draw sounds like a new tech to me.
One last question: If Gather Specimens is better than Sphinx of Jwar Isle, why does Sphinx cost three times more despite the fact that it came in a precon? And why does it actually see play?
IDK. I got mine for a very cheap trade and haven't been annoyed about it. I have a Russian, Foil, and regular SoJI that no one seems to want. I guess they must have pulled/paid for theirs.
The last statement I'll make on this is instant speed is key. It really is, spending 6 mana on a 5/5 that vamps laughs at as they play a kicked gatekeeper, but against vamps GS is on par if not slightly better, Stealing that kicked gatekeeper is goo, stealing a nighthawk and 2-1ing is good even if they use their removal on it. Its all about the card advantage
Versus having vamps laugh at your Calcite Snapper as they plop a Gatekeeper or just swing over you with flying Vamps. GS is conditional, and I thought what we were trying to do with MUC is make it more consistent. GS doesn't guarantee a winning game. In the SoJI build they drop a Gatekeeper and you kill your Wind Zendikon and keep moving forward. If anything gets resolved in the SoJIless build what do you do? You really have to bounce then GS? That seems like quite a waste of cards.
On the old MUC thread someone posted an FNM report with the SoJIless build that went 2-3 (or 3-2 don't remember specifically) and saying how good they thought it performed. That's really not a good performance at all. Once that build starts 4-1ing then I'll believe it.
As I said in the old thread, I really feel like all the discussion about Snapper+GS over SoJI really is just theoretical. I don't think it would work in the real game. You want to emulate classic MUC and cited Rainbow Efreet and Morphling as inspiration, but remember, both of those had Flying AND ways to shroud. SoJI's the best we've got. I honestly don't see how just Snapper will cut it.
Welcome to the MUC thread. MUC is a deck that plans to use counterspells and bounce to control the board long enough to ride the convertible turtle to victory. Some lists still include Sphinx Of Jwar Isle as the wincondition.
Okay so since the mods decided to genocide the old DC, I'll start this up again so heres the current sphinxless build.
4 Halimar Depths
4 Gargoyle Castle
3 Quicksand
1 Magosi, the waterveil
9 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Calcite Snapper
COUNTERS:17
4 Essence Scatter
4 Cancel
4 Summoner's Bane
3 Flashfreeze
2 Negate
4 Mysteries Of The Deep
3 Gather Specimens
2 Jace, The Mindsculptor
4 Into The Roil
The cards generally explain themselves, this is an experimental list though. There is still some debate whether the Sphinxless or Sphinx build is best as they both have strengths and weaknesses. In the Sphinxless build you gain the ability to play ALMOST anything at instant speed. With SoJI you lose that quickness but gain a 5/5 shrouded beater.
A SoJI list would be as follows
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Halimar Depths
1 Magosi, the Waterveil
4 Gargoyle Castle
4 Quicksand
8 Island
4 Flashfreeze
4 Cancel
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Mysteries of the Deep
4 Into the Roil
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Gather Specimens
4 Calcite Snapper
2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
This list was taken from the old thread and was originally posted by i-never-smile.
The cards in both lists are explained here.
Halimar Depths- This card is amazing for us, it digs for the win condition or counters or draw spells. It gets you what you need.
Quicksand- This will take out Goblin Guides and Hellsparks AND ball Lightnings, It helps a lot vs rdw etc.
Gargoyle Castle- This land can make win cons for you.
The fetchlands- For mysteries of the deep to draw you 3 cards at your opponents EOT.
Islands- Seems good.
Calcite Snapper- I love this card so much. He blocks aggro guys all day long, can't be burnt out and can go on the offensive and win you the game.
Sphinx Of Jwar Isle- SoJI build only run this, but he's a 5/5 flying shroud who lets you look at the top card of your library, essentially in SoJI build he is your main win condition
Gather Specimens- This card will steal you baneslayers to BBE's with Thrinaxes and everything else. It is the main win condition in the non SoJI builds.
Mysteries Of The Deep- This is absolutely essential, it draws cards at your opponents EOT, being able to play almost everything at instant speed is very VERY good.
Essence Scatter- Helps hold off aggro and helps you control the game
Into The Roil- Allows you to bounce things EOT or in response to them attacking, bouncing them EOT to steal them the next turn with gather specimens is always a good play.
Flashfreeze- This gives you ANOTHER 2cc counter which is necessary, if theres a lack of green or red in your meta, please feel free to replace these with Negates/Mindbreak Traps.
Negate- 2cc Counterspell that deals with blightning and eventually will deal with Planeswalkers opponents try to play, or that gamebreaking Cruel Ultimatum
Cancel- A 3cc Hard counter with no drawbacks is needed, the versatility it offers is essential.
Summoner's Bane- We need all the 2-1's we can get, and this offers one. Its essentially a mystic snake that can only counter creatures.
Jace The Mindsculptor- He can come down and gan contorl of board position or offer you CA. He's extremely good for us but is hard to use correctly. You MUST test with him before trying to play this deck seriously.
Wind Zendikon- this is only used in the SoJI build, but he can reuse the quicksand if its enchanted or even gargoyle castles, it also is a 2/2 for 1 with flying, It CAN offer CA.
Sideboards will most likely consist of several cards in common between all lists. my own personal meta is so crowded with aggro its sad so heres my personal SB.
4 Permafrost trap
1 Mind Control
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spreading Seas
Explanations of each card in the SB are as follows
Hatchling: He stops quick aggro dead in their tracks, he sits there, if they use burn on him thats fine, he takes the burn not you.
Permafrost Trap: I feel this card is SEVERELY underrated. It eats jund all day long, not to mention against RDW it kills sparks/hells thunder/Ball Lightnings. Yeah its good.
Mind Control: This is my own choice, theres a lot of bomby things to take in the format.
Relic Of Progenitus: Dredge decks/vampires/GY shenanigans.
Spreading Seas: An active Emeria can eat you alive, so we make it an Island, the same is true for Valakut.
P.s. Anyone who does fancy shenanigans ie card arts, signatures, and the like PM me, I'd like to make this look better!
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=299420
4 Calcite Snapper
Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculpter
Instants
4 Essence Scatter
3 Negate
4 Cancel
4 Summoner's Bane
2 Mindbreak Trap
4 Mysteries of the Deep
4 Into the Roil
2 Gather Specimens
4 Gargoyle Castle
4 Quicksand
1 Magosi, the Waterveil
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
12 Island
4 Flashfreeze
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Permafrost Trap
3 Tetonic Edge
1 Negate
I see more vampires and less jund in my meta so flashfreeze gets the boot to the board in favor of negates and traps main. This still gives a good match up against said jund and other similar decks while improving the match against vamps by not having four dead draws. Tetonic Edge is my weapon of choice against Emerias and Valakut which really give this deck trouble but they also work against the bigger man-lands and get sided in against control for a bit of disruption in the midgame which is critical. Jace 2.0 is definantly a powerhouse here and all the abilities are realavent, but replacing him with Jace 1.0 or even Scepter of Insight can provide at least some CA in the game which the deck really needs. Draw engines in the deck will win you games.
The only real bad matchup I have had was against Eldrazi Elves since they board GSS in and it is a difficult threat to answer. Vampires is fair as long as you can keep the Bloodghast recusion under control. Mindbreak Trap helps with that, as does GS. And YES you can nab a ghast with GS since once they decide to resolve the trigger and put it into play priority passes to you and you respond with GS stealing it. The trick is you can steal multiplt ghasts with GS since each trigger resolves individualy. I have not had a chance to play against boros enough but the matches I did play say it is fair at worst. Jund is fairly easy to beat once you hit four lands. Anything after four lands is just extra gas, but they key to beating it is to force them to exhaust thier hand then use Mysteries/Jace to draw a lot of cards and out play them in the CA front. The same is true for almost every match but more so for jund and Naya Lightsaber.
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cremate
4 Think Twice
3 Forbbiden Alchemy
3 Syncopate
3 Psychic Strike
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Tragic Slip
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Mutilate
2 Vanishment
3 Evolving Wilds
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
8 Swamp
3 Calcite Snapper
3 Clone
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Spells [24]
3 Cancel
3 Courier's Capsule
3 Essence Scatter
4 Into the Roil
3 Mind Control
2 Mind Spring
2 Negate
4 Time Warp
4 Halimar Depths
16 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Archive Trap
4 Flashfreeze
3 Gomazoa
4 Permafrost Trap
thats the deck i made last night GS would help instead of clone on ly difference is the mana cost is quite high
4 Essence Scatter
4 Flashfreeze
4 Cancel
4 Summoner's Bane
4 Into the Roil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Gather Specimens
4 Mysteries of the Deep
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Halimar Depths
1 Magosi, the Waterveil
4 Gargoyle Castle
4 Quicksand
8 Island
Right now I'm kinda wondering about the sideboard, I believe that we may need to have Tectonic Edge either one in main or two and the rest in sb because of the man lands and Valakut.
I actually am wondering what is an acceptable answer for those, I guess Spreading Sea does fit the bill now that I think about it.
Not liking the snapper sometimes. I don't want to cut him yet since he block Bloodghast all day long among other things.
I really like the list.
4 Negate
4 Spreading Sea
3 ???
That last spot I'm thinking of Premafrost Trap. The card is nasty and I'm loving the deck's potential to stop and slow downcards like BBE, though the Gather Specimens was amazing when a friend BBE into Thrinax. He said he was playing both and I decided I'd be taking them,
If we were to cut something I'd consider Trap Blue. Find a way to fit in Archive Trap and Trapmaker's Snare for the main kill aside from their creatures that you steal.
I mean to take out 7 cards in this deck is hard I believe though I'd take out the snapper first and then I'd be left scratching my chin over the rest. Maybe take away one of the Gather, Mysteries, and into the roils.
As soon as everyone stars really posting results I'll update win percentages.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=299420
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cremate
4 Think Twice
3 Forbbiden Alchemy
3 Syncopate
3 Psychic Strike
2 Negate
3 Dimir Charm
3 Tragic Slip
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Mutilate
2 Vanishment
3 Evolving Wilds
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
8 Swamp
but on topic, Next week will be the first FNM i get to play this, so when I do I will post my own results.
Also, I think 3-4 GS is enough but not 100% sure I want to cut down to 3... I'm thinking about readding the 4th
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=299420
Also, Summoner's Bane isn't good. A 2/2 just isn't going to cut it in this format.
EDH:
RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted
BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
As for Summoners Bane, its a 2-1, and we need as many as we can get. If we're on the play and Jund goes BBE into Thrinax, you counter thrinax and they don't swing with BBE because now you 2-1 them.
EDIT: I didn't mean that to come out like an elitist I'm sorry if you take it that way, Just nagged at me that you didn't really read the OP
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=299420
Midget, you do realize that in a 26 card deck, Treasure Hunt will draw 1.75 cards, yes? Draw 2 for 2 is a lot better than Divination.
I"d also recommend cutting a Gather Specimens and Summoner's Bane from the non-Sphinx list and add 2 Sphinx. That's the bane of Jund.
We have tested the differences, and so far to my knowledge the SoJIless build performs BETTER than the SoJI builds. GS is better against Jund than SoJI, you do realize this right?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=299420
QFT
You don't understand that playing something at the right time is better than playing something for cheaper.
I'm kinda thinking about losing one of the quicksands for another Island.
I also need to get better at shuffling everything back it again, got several draws of no lands and one land hands just running through the deck.
As far as Magosi, I can understand the card's uses I'm just extremely careful with this card, losing it to a Tectonic Edge after skipping while it was just a turn and a land, it felt like a big deal to me.
I'm actually happy with Summoner's Bane for those who haven't tried it so far. Getting that token in can give you a rest sometimes to drop Jace. I only have two, fortunate because I did pull both, one prerelease and one from my box.
Also, Other than taking an extra turn with Magosi and getting a token down with Summoner's Bane I haven't found a fair turn to drop Jace comfortably.
When has anyone found a safe turn to land him?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=299420
Also, Halimar Depths, I'm not having as much fun with it when I see it and I need a land. I know probably bad shuffling but the card sometimes just flops for setting up, I see like one land but it not be enough or something to that extent. IDK if I want to cut it down to three, where I wouldn't see it as much or take it out all together.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=299420
Or you could go with Swerve, Double Negative, Chandra, Lightning Bolt, and Earthquake.
Well I guess you want to play MUC for the nostalgia. Fine. But how do you win if Calcite Snapper is your only creature? If they can match your number of creatures, a 4/1 doesn't really beat anything. If you're not playing Sphinx of Jwar Isle, I don't see why you're playing a control deck.
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
Gather Specimens WINS GAMES.
Gargoyle Castle
Yes you CAN add white/red, however the deck is effective as Mono Blue, it doesn't NEED white/red.
Also, some lists play Mind Control Aswell, and that will also win games. Tapping out in MONO BLUE negates everything mono blue wants to do, COUNTER, EOT DRAW, BOUNCE EOT. Its bad to do. Hence SoJI got cut.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=299420
Ah, yes. I forgot how effective a Veteran Swordsmith is on his own. He's almost as good as Malakir Bloodwitch and Ant Queen is a bomb in blue decks. Don't even get me started on the all-powerful Kazuul Warlord. And seeing as how there's so little spot removal in standard right now, having two average creatures will easily take over the game.[/sarcasm]
Sphinx is way better than Gather Specimens right now.
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
You're clearly forgetting about Broodmate Dragon Baneslayer Angel Sphinx Of Jwar Isle Abyssal Persecutor Bloodbraid Elf which cascades into Sprouting Thrinax Those are all not played though right?
SoJI is NOT as good as GS.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=299420
Swordsmith is great in Soldiers. If you haven't tried out playing soldiers since Hada Freeblade was spoiled, you'll be in for a real shock. And Swordsmith is generally the best creature in Soldiers, unless you count Ranger of Eos. The deck could possibly run one or two Conqueror's Pledge, but that isn't going to help you win all by itself.
Bloodwitch is the best card to steal in Vampires. The only powerful creatures they play is Nocturnus, which doesn't help in a blue deck.
And if you don't plan around allies, don't bother going to any big tournaments.
Let's just see how Gather Specimens stacks up against the decks that MTGS considers Tier 1. And remember, these are best case scenarios.
Mono Black Vampires- Bloodwitch won't win you the game. It will get hit by Tendrils, or only be able to stop one creature after Nocturnus hits.
UWR control- The deck plays a few Sphinx of Jwar Isle. On the draw, you won't be able to steal it.
Naya- You get a Baneslayer, assuming he didn't get it out on turn 5. I guess it's possible that he get's another one later, but don't count on him topdecking one.
Grixis- Sphinx Of Jwar Isle again.
Jund- Powerful creatures of course. Broodmate Dragon is good here. Of course, they've probably been holding onto tons of removal all game, but you'll take your chances.
Boros Bushwhacker- Ranger of Eos is a house, and he's even better in a deck with no 1 cmc creatures.
Eldrazi Green- Maybe you can steal an Avenger of Zendikar. This might actually be a good place to play Gather Specimens.
RDW- I guess you can get that 6 mana Goblin Guide.
Jacerator- Maybe if they play Esper Charm, you can discard this.
Junk- Again, you can steal their Baneslayer or their Persecutor, but only if they draw multiple copies.
One last question: If Gather Specimens is better than Sphinx of Jwar Isle, why does Sphinx cost three times more despite the fact that it came in a precon? And why does it actually see play?
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
There fixed.
Seriously. I've been trying the deck out, it works so far as I've seen. Have you tested?
They don't need to draw multiple copies, read Into The Roil Yes Jund can use one of their plentiful removal cards on it, but you just 2-1'ed them. or even 3/4-1ing them. I really think you underestimate the card. I felt the SAME way you did until I played with it, the card is SEVERELY underrated.
The last statement I'll make on this is instant speed is key. It really is, spending 6 mana on a 5/5 that vamps laughs at as they play a kicked gatekeeper, but against vamps GS is on par if not slightly better, Stealing that kicked gatekeeper is goo, stealing a nighthawk and 2-1ing is good even if they use their removal on it. Its all about the card advantage
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=299420
Alright let's
Really? The best case is a turn five or six BW that will get tendril'd that same turn? That's pretty amazing I hope someone shows me where they spoiled Dark Rit. so that could happen.
Seriously? You think that control vs. control would tap out to play a SoJI against MUC and not expect it to get stolen or countered?
That or the BBE that cascades in to Wholly Thoctar. Again, you are ignoring the 14-16
Again ours, or countered.
That or BBE, you know EoT steal followed by counters is good I hear.
And this is a game where you would side out GS.
And I believe it is a VERY good place, what are we going to waste counters on? Mana Producers?
Or we could just not worry about playing GS against this deck. Again low mana creatures are not going to be something we'd waste 6 mana on dealing with.
Again, not playing it against this deck is the way to play. I'd however keep at least two since Flashfreeze would come out for Negates and you would still have a chance to nab a BS which they like to board in when people board out all creature removal. I didn't know that they would run esper charm for all that draw sounds like a new tech to me.
sigh. I feel like I'm having to repeat myself to reply to these same notions.
IDK. I got mine for a very cheap trade and haven't been annoyed about it. I have a Russian, Foil, and regular SoJI that no one seems to want. I guess they must have pulled/paid for theirs.
Versus having vamps laugh at your Calcite Snapper as they plop a Gatekeeper or just swing over you with flying Vamps. GS is conditional, and I thought what we were trying to do with MUC is make it more consistent. GS doesn't guarantee a winning game. In the SoJI build they drop a Gatekeeper and you kill your Wind Zendikon and keep moving forward. If anything gets resolved in the SoJIless build what do you do? You really have to bounce then GS? That seems like quite a waste of cards.
On the old MUC thread someone posted an FNM report with the SoJIless build that went 2-3 (or 3-2 don't remember specifically) and saying how good they thought it performed. That's really not a good performance at all. Once that build starts 4-1ing then I'll believe it.
As I said in the old thread, I really feel like all the discussion about Snapper+GS over SoJI really is just theoretical. I don't think it would work in the real game. You want to emulate classic MUC and cited Rainbow Efreet and Morphling as inspiration, but remember, both of those had Flying AND ways to shroud. SoJI's the best we've got. I honestly don't see how just Snapper will cut it.