Is red absolutely necessary to have? Bant colours also have token producers and even though they're inferior, the addition of Khalni Garden and Sejiri Steppe, along with Rampant Growth/Explore, would allow T3 Polymorph or T4 safe Polymorph with protection from removal on the token.
How do you want to get token before turn 3 with those colours? Only the Garden and a Martial Coup (X=1) can do it reliably.
Red has the cheapest tokens, and adding 1 colour instead of 2 is a lot less strain on the manabase.
I was just about to post a Polymorph Thread went I got home from work, but It appears I'm already a bit too late....Anyway, This is my take on a viable Standard Polymorph Deck. I run it as a U/G. Opinions and suggestions are more then welcomed.
How do you want to get token before turn 3 with those colours? Only the Garden and a Martial Coup (X=1) can do it reliably.
Red has the cheapest tokens, and adding 1 colour instead of 2 is a lot less strain on the manabase.
Wind Zendikon works. It and Garden are essentially "1 mana." Green also gives you another 1 mana counter in the form of Vines of Wastwood.
You also have access to Misty Rainforest as a shuffle outlet similar to Tarn in the red list which gives lets you see more cards with Halimar Depths, Ponder, and if you feel like it, Jace.
In the red-blue version, you could spend your turn tapping out to Goblin Assault turn 3-5 and attempt to Morph turn 5 (6) or later with only Negate or Double Negative as backup and get blown out by all of their spot removal, or you could try to have cheaper dudes (each "1 mana") and cheaper counters (both 1 mana) have access to acceleration and tons of digging, and go off turn 4-5 with counter backup.
I think green-blue got too many good tools for the deck, while the red build did not.
Also, Wind Zendikon can enchant a Khalni Garden and chump twice/make more guys. ;]
You can get a token before turn 3 using Thopter Foundry and Basilisk Collar/Amulet of Vigor. Because of Amulet of Vigor your Borderposts come into play untapped. Put Basilisl Collar on a Thopter Token and you have a real threat. Use Basilisk Collar on your Iona and you gain 7 life each attack. You also run Summoner's Bane and other control cards in a UW version. You could even use both Fieldmist and Mistvein Boderpost and make your deck an Esper version.
Why Spell Pierce there? I feel like more Negate and Flashfreeze would be beneficial... less so on the FF, since I think we're about to get a bit more diverse in standard than Jund overload.
Have you thought about dispel? I feel like the point of the counterspells are to make sure you can get polymorph off, and because the only way they are killing you creature when you morph is with an instant, dispel seems fantastic
You need to run jace main. Being able to shuffle a beastie out of your hand while drawing into the polymorph at the same time. Thats what im talking about!
If you draw 1 of your 3 big guys, then you are screwed, so it's to conditional without a way to fix bad hands.
You need to run jace main. Being able to shuffle a beastie out of your hand while drawing into the polymorph at the same time. Thats what im talking about!
If you draw 1 of your 3 big guys, then you are screwed, so it's to conditional without a way to fix bad hands.
Jace Jace please
this is a combo deck. i'd rather polymorph on turn 4 than drop a jace(which will get bolted/pulsed/attacked)
this is a combo deck. i'd rather polymorph on turn 4 than drop a jace(which will get bolted/pulsed/attacked)
Then your wrong. It is a combo deck, and Jace is the best thing for it. If you claim jace will be removed instantly, then so won't the Poly target. What Jace does is unsommon threats and allow your goblin ush to apply pressure until you can get Iona out. He draws cards, and not only lets you filter through your deck for peices, but also puts iona out of your hand where she is useless. Then on top of that, he fateseals your opponent out of any possible awnser once Iona is out. Oh, and incase you run into a hard situation, where Iona can't finish the game, that last ability on Jace will.
He's perfect for this deck, in just about every way.
Can this deck be viable in FNM's? It looks like such a fun deck and it's pretty cheap to build! I want to make it!
This is beyond viable for FNM's. A few of us have been running this online (from the last thread) and almost all of us have found great sucess in the tourneys there. It really doesn't have a bad matchup and it beats jund pretty easily
As much as the U/G version intrigues me with Khalni Garden, Wind Zendicon, and turn 2 ramp spells, I feel the U/R version is just much more reliable and can actually do something should you never hit Polymorph. Perhaps, I am wrong and Beastial Menace is more of a house than I think it is. If you run the U/G version, shouldn't Everflowing Chalice be in there to ensure the turn 3 Polymorph more regularly? Or some combination of Explore and Rampant Growth? I imagine that I'd want 6-7 turn 2 ramp effects if I have 8 turn 1 dude makers and I want to Polymorph on turn 3.
As for the U/R version, should 4 of those 11 Islands become Halimar Depths and the 4 Divination become Treasure Hunt? I'm pretty sure Depths, Ponder and Treasure Hunt all work pretty well together. Is there any way we can get more shuffle effects in there?
Personally, I want to combine the two and make a U/R/G version. I'm working on it now. I want the power and support that green adds, as well as the token generators and spot removal of red. I'll post it when I'm done.
As much as the U/G version intrigues me with Khalni Garden, Wind Zendicon, and turn 2 ramp spells, I feel the U/R version is just much more reliable and can actually do something should you never hit Polymorph.
You're right, it doesn't do anything without Polymorph. I'm not sure if failing to Polymorph with just Assault on the board with a Bolt potentially in hand is all that good either, but it's definitely better than having Plant tokens.
If you run the U/G version, shouldn't Everflowing Chalice be in there to ensure the turn 3 Polymorph more regularly? Or some combination of Explore and Rampant Growth? I imagine that I'd want 6-7 turn 2 ramp effects if I have 8 turn 1 dude makers and I want to Polymorph on turn 3.
I'm testing with and without Chalice. I just replaced them with Jace, and I'll probably put them over spreading seas or something. They get me to Morph mana really early, but at the same time I don't always have Morph. 7 ramp effects, 8 doods, 4 morph... digging is pretty important.
I suppose another option is to run some Garruk and Menace and stuff and (instead of the turn 3-5 plan) opt for later turns, but play the deck like more of an aggro deck. Not sure how good that is since your aggro element is weaker than every other aggro deck, and your combo element is slowed down (although you're possibly drawing removal away from your combo pieces).
As for the U/R version, should 4 of those 11 Islands become Halimar Depths and the 4 Divination become Treasure Hunt? I'm pretty sure Depths, Ponder and Treasure Hunt all work pretty well together. Is there any way we can get more shuffle effects in there?
The UR list posted in the first post is a pre-Worldwake list. I can't remember if there was an updated list posted in the other thread, but no one's posted an updated UR list.
I started with this type of UR list, and I did like it with Hunt and Depths, actually. And Jace. Depths, Fetches, and Hunt all have synergy, and Hunt draws more Depths, Fetches, etc. (In UG it draws Khalni Gardens, too) so I think it's strong in this type of deck.
How's this for UG? Decided to add Into The Roil so if something like a Bloodghast gets cast before Iona, there's still a way to keep the game going instead of having some sort of race.
I feel that if your going G/U then you might as well go Bant. It gives you the underrated Flurry of Wings, as well as spot removal and makes Iona hard castable.
With the new U/G version does anyone think it might be worth looking into Summoning Trap maybe as a 1 or 2 of? If they remove all our tokens this could be another possible way to get our stuff out. Granted it's slower, but it still might be worth looking into.
People thought there might be a day of judgment/zendikon/manland/terra eternal deck out there. This deck requires no creatures, and it gives you a completely separate wincon. Halimar Depths/Jace make Treasure Hunt awesome. A singleton Summoning Trap can combo with Jace or Depths to get Iona out 3 turns earlier. Remember, if you draw Iona, you can put her back on top of your library with Jace so that the trap can find her. As a bonus, if you have terra eternal out, your wind zendikon won't even die when you polymorph. Terra Eternal also protects your land/creatures from spot removal other than Path. Sub in the Vines against decks that run Path. The quantity of lands in the deck make hard-casting Iona not out of the question.
Which is a better choice for this deck? Progenitus or Iona, Shield of Emeria? Also what is currently the list that is the most consistent and optimal? I am really interested in making this deck.
I think the hardest matchup would be control. You might be able to counter their first counter, but after that you probably won't have very good odds. Sure, other decks can just bolt or path the token. But they probably won't be able to cast 2 or 3 on your turn, where control can.
As for what colors, I'm trying U/G and it seems to do decently. I haven't really tested it against anything that's an established deck, just against other WWK inspired rogue decks. It's been able to win a couple times without polymorph, thanks to garruk and bestial menace.
Which is a better choice for this deck? Progenitus or Iona, Shield of Emeria? Also what is currently the list that is the most consistent and optimal? I am really interested in making this deck.
You need to run both, but Iona in the main and Progenitus in the side. Basically, Iona should name the mono color (black for Vamps, green for Eldrazi Green, red for RDW etc.) or the color of removal (black for Jund). If there are too many colors to name to reliably protect Iona (say they are running white/black), that is when we side in Progenitus. The main reason we don' run Progenitus in the main is Gatekeeper of Malakir.
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Which is a better choice for this deck? Progenitus or Iona, Shield of Emeria? Also what is currently the list that is the most consistent and optimal? I am really interested in making this deck.
Iona is too good right now. A lot of decks are looking to be one or two colors right now, and Iona shuts them down. She also hoses down decks like jund and some of the three color decks that rely on one color so heavily.
Progenitus does belong in the side because of cards like thought hemorrhage. It has been a great 1-2 of side since the deck began.
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7 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Divination
2 Double Negative
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Goblin Assault
2 Into the Roil
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Negate
4 Polymorph
4 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
4 Spreading Seas
2 Burst Lightning
2 Flashfreeze
2 Mind Control
2 Progenitus
3 Pyroclasm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Swerve
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I see most list with 2 different finishers, as defense against Thought Hemorrhage, by the way.
How do you want to get token before turn 3 with those colours? Only the Garden and a Martial Coup (X=1) can do it reliably.
Red has the cheapest tokens, and adding 1 colour instead of 2 is a lot less strain on the manabase.
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Progenitus
3 Bestial Menace
4 Explore
4 Flashfreeze
4 Fog
4 Polymorph
3 Tanglesap
3 Treasure Hunt
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Wind Zendikon
8 Island
4 Khalni Garden
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Naturalize
4 Negate
3 Sleep
2 Telemin Performance
Not sure on the Sideboard, haven't put too much thought into it yet. Only thing I'm questioning thus far is playing Treasure Hunt over Howling Mine.
As played, it's consistant with a turn 3-5 Progenitus, but feels it still has plenty of room for improvement.
Wind Zendikon works. It and Garden are essentially "1 mana." Green also gives you another 1 mana counter in the form of Vines of Wastwood.
You also have access to Misty Rainforest as a shuffle outlet similar to Tarn in the red list which gives lets you see more cards with Halimar Depths, Ponder, and if you feel like it, Jace.
4 Polymorph
Dig
4 Explore
4 Halimar Depths
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Ponder
4 Spreading Seas
4 Treasure Hunt
4 Khalni Garden Morph
4 Wind Zendikon
Counters
4 Dispel
4 Vines of Vastwood
Basics
7 Island
3 Forest
In the red-blue version, you could spend your turn tapping out to Goblin Assault turn 3-5 and attempt to Morph turn 5 (6) or later with only Negate or Double Negative as backup and get blown out by all of their spot removal, or you could try to have cheaper dudes (each "1 mana") and cheaper counters (both 1 mana) have access to acceleration and tons of digging, and go off turn 4-5 with counter backup.
I think green-blue got too many good tools for the deck, while the red build did not.
Also, Wind Zendikon can enchant a Khalni Garden and chump twice/make more guys. ;]
EDIT: Jace is good.
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If you draw 1 of your 3 big guys, then you are screwed, so it's to conditional without a way to fix bad hands.
Jace Jace please
this is a combo deck. i'd rather polymorph on turn 4 than drop a jace(which will get bolted/pulsed/attacked)
Then your wrong. It is a combo deck, and Jace is the best thing for it. If you claim jace will be removed instantly, then so won't the Poly target. What Jace does is unsommon threats and allow your goblin ush to apply pressure until you can get Iona out. He draws cards, and not only lets you filter through your deck for peices, but also puts iona out of your hand where she is useless. Then on top of that, he fateseals your opponent out of any possible awnser once Iona is out. Oh, and incase you run into a hard situation, where Iona can't finish the game, that last ability on Jace will.
He's perfect for this deck, in just about every way.
=
"Sup dawg! I herd u like mountains so I equipped a mountain on your mountain so your can swing with land while you swing with land!"
This is beyond viable for FNM's. A few of us have been running this online (from the last thread) and almost all of us have found great sucess in the tourneys there. It really doesn't have a bad matchup and it beats jund pretty easily
=
"Sup dawg! I herd u like mountains so I equipped a mountain on your mountain so your can swing with land while you swing with land!"
As for the U/R version, should 4 of those 11 Islands become Halimar Depths and the 4 Divination become Treasure Hunt? I'm pretty sure Depths, Ponder and Treasure Hunt all work pretty well together. Is there any way we can get more shuffle effects in there?
You're right, it doesn't do anything without Polymorph. I'm not sure if failing to Polymorph with just Assault on the board with a Bolt potentially in hand is all that good either, but it's definitely better than having Plant tokens.
I'm testing with and without Chalice. I just replaced them with Jace, and I'll probably put them over spreading seas or something. They get me to Morph mana really early, but at the same time I don't always have Morph. 7 ramp effects, 8 doods, 4 morph... digging is pretty important.
I suppose another option is to run some Garruk and Menace and stuff and (instead of the turn 3-5 plan) opt for later turns, but play the deck like more of an aggro deck. Not sure how good that is since your aggro element is weaker than every other aggro deck, and your combo element is slowed down (although you're possibly drawing removal away from your combo pieces).
The UR list posted in the first post is a pre-Worldwake list. I can't remember if there was an updated list posted in the other thread, but no one's posted an updated UR list.
I started with this type of UR list, and I did like it with Hunt and Depths, actually. And Jace. Depths, Fetches, and Hunt all have synergy, and Hunt draws more Depths, Fetches, etc. (In UG it draws Khalni Gardens, too) so I think it's strong in this type of deck.
3 Bestial Menace
4 Polymorph
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Progenitus
4 Explore
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Hunt
4 Dispel
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Khalni Garden
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Forest
10 Island
4 Flashfreeze
4 Negate
4 Naturalize
2 Mind Control
1 Summoning Trap
=
"Sup dawg! I herd u like mountains so I equipped a mountain on your mountain so your can swing with land while you swing with land!"
4x Terra Eternal
4x Treasure Hunt
4x Polymorph
2x Jace, the Mindsculptor
4x Wind Zendikon
4x Dispel
2x Guardian Zendikon
3x Day of Judgment
3x Explore
1x Summoning Trap
4x Stirring Wildwood
3x Celestial Colonnade
4x Khalni Garden
4x Halimar Depths
3x Seaside Citadel
3x Plains
2x Forest
3x Island
2x Progenitus
2x Summoning Trap
4x Vines of the Vastwood
4x Path to Exile
3x Negate
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As for what colors, I'm trying U/G and it seems to do decently. I haven't really tested it against anything that's an established deck, just against other WWK inspired rogue decks. It's been able to win a couple times without polymorph, thanks to garruk and bestial menace.
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You need to run both, but Iona in the main and Progenitus in the side. Basically, Iona should name the mono color (black for Vamps, green for Eldrazi Green, red for RDW etc.) or the color of removal (black for Jund). If there are too many colors to name to reliably protect Iona (say they are running white/black), that is when we side in Progenitus. The main reason we don' run Progenitus in the main is Gatekeeper of Malakir.
Iona is too good right now. A lot of decks are looking to be one or two colors right now, and Iona shuts them down. She also hoses down decks like jund and some of the three color decks that rely on one color so heavily.
Progenitus does belong in the side because of cards like thought hemorrhage. It has been a great 1-2 of side since the deck began.