MTG Salvation

Quote from Chromaticus

This is my Wort, the Raidmother deck, designed for a cross-over between Duels and Multi-player.

Except that it is actually mine, we played earlier today and this is an excact copy of my deck. I would like this thread removed.

Whoever came up with this idea, it's cool. It's definitely got my gears spinning about a 1v1 Wort list. However, doesn't this deck go "all-in" on Wort? What happens if she gets killed/countered?

Also, in my experience Recoup is way better than Revive.

Also, are Early Harvest and Grim Monolith all that good without Mana Reflection?

Just to establish that, this is my deck and my invention, worked on for the last 6 months from scratch. Now onwards to the deck!

I was already planning to write a primer for the deck as soon as the mws tournament was over. That one will probably in coparation with jahstice, since he has given me a lot of good input after we played for the first time some weeks ago.

The deck relies on Wort, I'm aware of that. The point with the deck is that you probably auto-win if you untap with wort, as there are a bazillion of ways you can use your tokens to make mana, draw cards, tutor etc, even twice. In the deck there are included ways to protect the general from counters, a meta call on my part. And even though the deck moves slower without wort, there are plenty of ways to win without. A single TnN will give the deck a minimum of 11 drawn cards, and 11 fresh creatures in the board.

Another strength of the deck is the consistency that the deck accelrates out Wort turn 3. This can be done with Grim Monolith, Mana Vault, Rofellos or any of the 1-mana tutors for rofellos. The deck is nearly mono-green, with a splash for red for the x-burn that finishes the game. The deck is in many ways similar to some elf-ball decks of the past, exploding without actually going infinite.

I will start writing up the primer now, and publish it after the tourney. Thanks for the support from those of you that have sent pms or otherwise supported me.

Hephlathio

List is frighteningly similar to my own Hephlatio. I don't use as much the land destruction, because I don't run it as a cross over deck to 1v1, and my creature density is a lot lower, but otherwise the principles are the same, and the card choices are very similar. Look forward to the Primer, if you don't write it, I may (but strictly for MP).

A conspired entwined Rude Awakening followed by Vitalizing Wind (conspired or not) is one of my most brutal plays (assuming 9 mana, that's 80-162 damage). Vitalizing Wind is just good with tokens in General, because you can attack with them, no blockers, no counters? Okay you win.

No Boseiju?

Courtesy of Cervid, Reiterate provides infinite mana with Early Harvest and Rude Awakening as well.

Snake Basket is a awesome Green token producer, one of the few "X" ones at least.

Deserted Temple is brutal with Gaea's Cradle. Conspired Reap and Sow, Sylvan Scrying or Crop Rotation gets both. Add Garruk to the mix and just laugh.

Quote from Pysces

List is frighteningly similar to my own Hephlatio. I don't use as much the land destruction, because I don't run it as a cross over deck to 1v1, and my creature density is a lot lower, but otherwise the principles are the same, and the card choices are very similar. Look forward to the Primer, if you don't write it, I may (but strictly for MP).

A conspired entwined Rude Awakening followed by Vitalizing Wind (conspired or not) is one of my most brutal plays (assuming 9 mana, that's 80-162 damage). Vitalizing Wind is just good with tokens in General, because you can attack with them, no blockers, no counters? Okay you win.

No Boseiju?

Courtesy of Cervid, Reiterate provides infinite mana with Early Harvest and Rude Awakening as well.

Snake Basket is a awesome Green token producer, one of the few "X" ones at least.

Deserted Temple is brutal with Gaea's Cradle. Conspired Reap and Sow, Sylvan Scrying or Crop Rotation gets both. Add Garruk to the mix and just laugh.

Snake Basket and Reiterate was cut to make room for other cards, but I might add them if they prove to be good enough. Deserted Temple is in my deck, but the OP looks like have cut that together with the mana reflection. Another example of him not understanding how the deck works.

Quote from Hephlathio

Snake Basket and Reiterate was cut to make room for other cards, but I might add them if they prove to be good enough. Deserted Temple is in my deck, but the OP looks like have cut that together with the mana reflection. Another example of him not understanding how the deck works.

I'll just wait for your true list then.

Thanks for the credit, Pysces. Wort is actually my baby, and I'm in the process of writing a primer for it with a multiplayer focus. It would be great if we could combine the experience of those who have tuned it for 1v1 with those of us who have tuned it for multiplayer and put together a complete and awesome primer for the Raidmother.

Quote from Cervid

Thanks for the credit, Pysces. Wort is actually my baby, and I'm in the process of writing a primer for it with a multiplayer focus. It would be great if we could combine the experience of those who have tuned it for 1v1 with those of us who have tuned it for multiplayer and put together a complete and awesome primer for the Raidmother.

Sounds good to me, I'd probably do a write up for Mayael or Thraximundar first, if anything, so I'll leave the MP side to you and just contribute.

Quote from Cervid

Thanks for the credit, Pysces. Wort is actually my baby, and I'm in the process of writing a primer for it with a multiplayer focus. It would be great if we could combine the experience of those who have tuned it for 1v1 with those of us who have tuned it for multiplayer and put together a complete and awesome primer for the Raidmother.

Yeah, she's a great general and deserves a great primer

Feel free to add me on skype (same name) so we can co-ordinate our efforts.

Everyone fighting over this deck like it's the hottest thing ever is a little confounding to me. It doesn't even look good for 1 vs. 1. It's way too fair to do well in a competitive 1 vs 1 environment because it has very little in the way of interaction.

It may be fine for mp because every card is pretty much a haymaker, but a major overhaul would be needed otherwise.

Quote from Jahstice

you see. thats the thing. it is one of the hottest things. you rarely come across really original builds nowdays. not just adding all broken cards you can find in a deck, or go with obvious combos.
this deck is extremly strong and totally fresh. the fact that you say its not good in 1vs1 made me laugh. you obviously never played against it. unbelievable how someone can say such nonsense...
and this deck by the way is not about your creatures going to kill you. out of 10 games i win i think 9 without attacking. yes this has lots pf creatures and i had players who zused their Zur to dig up propaganda and ghostly prisons because they think they will be over run in a sec. but this deck is not aggro. its one huge combo deck, with many options to win. its a huge synergy in almost all fo the cards. so kudos to hephlathio.

I can state for a fact that I have a Venser build, an Arcum build, a Dralnu build, and a Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed build that would probably roll this in 1 vs 1. You say that this deck wins off of combo most of the time, and I believe that as I also have a Wort the Raidmother list. The thing is, if it's winning off of its rg combos all the time, it will just lose to the decks that are better at comboing faster because it's not playing enough cheap interaction, imo, or it will lose to the decks that are better at controlling than it is at comboing... Is that basic logic sound to you, whether or not you believe I have these lists?

As far as this deck being totally original: Ease up. I've been playing Wort for about a year and my deck looks very similar to this only instead of some of the combo related stuff and instead of the stuff that isn't much good on its own(Doubling Season), I'm running more interaction and Warp World. I'm not saying the deck is terrible or anything, but that I think the list could use an updating in realism if it wants to start swinging with the big decks of the format, and not just anybody you can find on MWS. That's all. It's a good deck.

Also, I think this deck needs Memory Jar.

Quote from Drahcir_Nagrom

I can state for a fact that I have a Venser build, an Arcum build, a Dralnu build, and a Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed build that would probably roll this in 1 vs 1. You say that this deck wins off of combo most of the time, and I believe that as I also have a Wort the Raidmother list. The thing is, if it's winning off of its rg combos all the time, it will just lose to the decks that are better at comboing faster because it's not playing enough cheap interaction, imo, or it will lose to the decks that are better at controlling than it is at comboing... Is that basic logic sound to you, whether or not you believe I have these lists?

As far as this deck being totally original: Ease up. I've been playing Wort for about a year and my deck looks very similar to this only instead of some of the combo related stuff and instead of the stuff that isn't much good on its own(Doubling Season), I'm running more interaction and Warp World. I'm not saying the deck is terrible or anything, but that I think the list could use an updating in realism if it wants to start swinging with the big decks of the format, and not just anybody you can find on MWS. That's all. It's a good deck.

Also, I think this deck needs Memory Jar.

I'm currently 3-1-1 in the mws tourney after beating Azami in the last round, and that was with a pretty suboptimal list, as I've got many good suggestions for improvements, as well as a major boost after worldwake. If you don't believe me, feel free to contact me by PM or by skype so we can arrange a match

As for the deck being slow and all that, this deck consitenly win by turn 5 if left unanswered, and is good to go a round or two after that even with disruption. Elfball doesn't run much disruption either, and as these decks functions similarily to each other i think that is a fair comarison.

I'm always open for suggestions, and Memory Jar is on my shortlist of to do things.

I'm wondering if the original list plays too many token spells. I mean, you probably want to hit one so your Gaea's Cradle produces a lot of mana, but this deck seems loaded with them. For that matter, how good are token producing creatures? Would you just want to accel faster into Wort?

What I like about this deck is the heavy disruption. I would think the first thing you'd want to conspire is something like LD or Stunted Growth.

Quote from Big Jim

I'm wondering if the original list plays too many token spells. I mean, you probably want to hit one so your Gaea's Cradle produces a lot of mana, but this deck seems loaded with them. For that matter, how good are token producing creatures? Would you just want to accel faster into Wort?

What I like about this deck is the heavy disruption. I would think the first thing you'd want to conspire is something like LD or Stunted Growth.

Yeah, I would probably cut some of the weaker token producing spells from the list in the OP, but the tokens are needed to fuel a lot of the combos. An essential part of the deck's game plan is to drop one of the altars or earthcraft and Wort. All the token producing spells will now net you mana, and you can continue into Regal Force, Skullclamp or Collective Unconcious for more cards. Then you play more tokens to net more mana for the finishing x-burn.

Suggestions for good disruption spells are very welcome, few manage to come back from a conspired stunted growth or plow under.

Quote from Hephlathio

Yeah, I would probably cut some of the weaker token producing spells from the list in the OP, but the tokens are needed to fuel a lot of the combos. An essential part of the deck's game plan is to drop one of the altars or earthcraft and Wort. All the token producing spells will now net you mana, and you can continue into Regal Force, Skullclamp or Collective Unconcious for more cards. Then you play more tokens to net more mana for the finishing x-burn.

Suggestions for good disruption spells are very welcome, few manage to come back from a conspired stunted growth or plow under.

Yeah, I play Wort in multiplayer. I think there has to be a balance between token producing spells and win-conditions. One big difference between this deck and the standard or extended elf-ball decks is that it's much less viable to just win by attacking with tokens. Sure, it's possible, but just not as viable. Especially against decks like Rofellos that can outrace you.

Plus, Wort makes tokens. It seems like you might want one token producing spell before Wort hits play, but after that, you want your first conspired spell to set the opponent back, then the next one to effectively finish the game; kind of like a jab into a cross in boxing.

That strategy is what's original about this deck to me. Most Wort deck seeks to win by conspiring big spells. This deck seeks to win by conspiring 3-5 mana disruptive spells (mainly LD).

I'm inspired to try my hand at a list.

Quote from Big Jim

Yeah, I play Wort in multiplayer. I think there has to be a balance between token producing spells and win-conditions. One big difference between this deck and the standard or extended elf-ball decks is that it's much less viable to just win by attacking with tokens. Sure, it's possible, but just not as viable. Especially against decks like Rofellos that can outrace you.

Plus, Wort makes tokens. It seems like you might want one token producing spell before Wort hits play, but after that, you want your first conspired spell to set the opponent back, then the next one to effectively finish the game; kind of like a jab into a cross in boxing.

That strategy is what's original about this deck to me. Most Wort deck seeks to win by conspiring big spells. This deck seeks to win by conspiring 3-5 mana disruptive spells (mainly LD).

I'm inspired to try my hand at a list.

Yeah, I agree. This deck has two ways to win. The disruption route, and the combo route.

Tokens are extremely important for a Wort list for one principle reason. Card draw. The best draw engines in Green mainly revolve around creatures.

When I was looking to take my Wort list to the "next" level, I found what I lacked most compared to other lists was good draw, and tutors and therefore consistency.

As a result, I tilted towards tokens, because that's where all the draw is.

Little did I know how crazy it would be. Typically, I don't draw two or three cards here and there. If not disturbed, I draw 30-40 cards, find whatever I need to get Cradle + something to untap it, or Rude Awakening, and the game just ends there.

Or I find Viscious Shadows (brutal) + any Sac Outlet, + Wheel of Fortune.

Even if I don't manage to draw into a situation where I can't win on the spot, I mostly likely at least draw into Gamble, or Planar Portal at minimum, and those can tutor out the card needed.

Basically, tokens = draw = broken.

I figured, since tokens were so important, it made sense to boost tokens and get the best of both worlds.

I then found that token boosters were Generally more efficient then X spells, and became even happier. This way I didn't have to fight between too many token spells, and win spells (though I still run both).

I'll see if I can get my list formatted and updated and post it.

EDIT: My list as current


MP only, so for a 1v1 perspective it may seem slow. I know there is room for improvement, but it's hard for me to say what, the deck wins very, very consistently. It's the list I pull out when I want to show U players how R/G can be broken too.

Quote from Pysces

It's the list I pull out when I want to show U players how R/G can be broken too.

So true

I find the combat route tempting, but only as a backup plan. This is because it is much easier to stop, with cards like Propaganda. As said before, I just love when the Zur player fetches it to stop the deck from attacking As for the token comments, you nailed it. Tokens=cards=broken (just that it's tokens=mana=broken as well :p)

Cards like Propoganda never really stop me. If I can generate 15+ tokens, it usually means I can pay 2 for as much as needed.

I get your point though, and the aggro route is my secondary plan in essence. Combo is the first plan, and no Propoganda type effect can stop that (that's what cards like Goblin Bombardment are for, convert tokens into damage!).

Our lists have some major differences, Pysces. I run a lot more removal than you do, such as Rack and Ruin and Shatterstorm, but that may have a lot to do with your particular metagame. I also found that Doubling Season didn't work for me. The deck has no problems making plenty of tokens, and I never found that having twice as many was worth the slot in the deck.

I'm a little surprised that you're not running Mana Echoes. That card seriously brings the crazy.

I'd also recommend Far Wanderings instead of Deep Reconnaissance, I've just found it to be flat out better.

Also, with all of your tokens, I would seriously consider Furystoke Giant. That guy can just win games with tokens.

Here's my current list for reference:

I might as well post the deck here, so you don't have to look to the OP for reference of my list, as that deck is not complete. Will try to fit in Shivan Wurm and Memory Jar, but as the list is so tight I have problems cutting cards. Suggestions are welcome

Quote from Cervid

Our lists have some major differences, Pysces. I run a lot more removal than you do, such as Rack and Ruin and Shatterstorm, but that may have a lot to do with your particular metagame. I also found that Doubling Season didn't work for me. The deck has no problems making plenty of tokens, and I never found that having twice as many was worth the slot in the deck.

The issue with my metagame is I'm generally the aggressor. The list is all in, or all out, in that if I get on the defensive trying to manage my opponents resources, instead of just pushing my game forward, it's usually a losing position. Saying that, I've been wanting a tad more removal, and I've mostly been eyeing Mystic Melting. That's mostly because, conspired, it draws cards and happens to deal with a problem, which still keeps my game pushing forward.

Doubling Season could go, but I like it with the Planeswalkers >_>. It's one of those interactions I'm partial too, even if it's not 100% optimal.

I'm a little surprised that you're not running Mana Echoes. That card seriously brings the crazy.

Truth, and I do debate it many times. Again from a optimal point of view, it could probably swap places with Doubling Season (since the extra mana will likely create an equal amount of tokens in the long run). I don't run it currently, because the list in my meta is already broken... Mana Echoes could tip it to unplayable.

I'd also recommend Far Wanderings instead of Deep Reconnaissance, I've just found it to be flat out better.

I think the cards serve difference purposes for us. Far Wanderings I always found lack luster, because when I want ramp most, it's in the early game, not necessarily the late game. Deep Reconnaissance can go turn 3 to 4 lands, turn 4 to 6 lands (assuming land drop) which is Wort range, or, if I have another ramp card, it goes turn 3 to 4 lands, and then sits in the yard ready to be conspired again for another 2 lands later. I like that flexibility more.

Also, with all of your tokens, I would seriously consider Furystoke Giant. That guy can just win games with tokens.

Yes, probably should really... hmm. I'll think about it.

Let's see your list.

Yay, top 8 in the tourney

Also, thoughts on Fissure as well as other LD spells like Rain of Salt, Stone Rain, Wreak Havoc etc. to improve the disruptive route?