Bloodbraid Elf is clearly the piece in the Jund pie that pushes it over the top, makes it absolutely dominate the format.
Not since Affinity has a deck so completely dominated the standard format-Fae didn't because there was also 5CC, RDW, Kithkin as strong decks.
Yes decks like Mythic Bant and Boss Naya are cute but also consistently get beaten by jund.
I'm not complaining about Jund, it is a solid deck and broken by no means, but Bloodbraid Elf is just an overpowered undercosted CA engine, and by banning it, it would increase the enjoyment and diversity of standard for all.
Wizards should just man up. Printing BBElf was a mistake. It's time to show it the banhammer.
Bloodbraid Elf is clearly the piece in the Jund pie that pushes it over the top, makes it absolutely dominate the format.
Not since Affinity has a deck so completely dominated the standard format-Fae didn't because there was also 5CC, RDW, Kithkin as strong decks.
Yes decks like Mythic Bant and Boss Naya are cute but also consistently get beaten by jund.
I'm not complaining about Jund, it is a solid deck and broken by no means, but Bloodbraid Elf is just an overpowered undercosted CA engine, and by banning it, it would increase the enjoyment and diversity of standard for all.
Wizards should just man up. Printing BBElf was a mistake. It's time to show it the banhammer.
Even though you may be right, I think it be more beneficial to ban Blightning. Naya runs BBE and it's good but it's not the house Jund is. Blightning however, would make it more sane. Granted, this is all besides the point that this meta would never see a banning... not to mention there is only six months to go before rotation so all in all talking about banning cards in standard is kind of irrelevant.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGUSULTI ELEVENSBGU
hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent
I totally called this all the way back in last June before the Jund monster even surfaced lol. Granted, this was in the Humor thread of all places (hint hint), but still:
If you see someone playing Bloodbraid Elf in their deck even if it's just as a one-of or a playset, don't listen to what the DCI is bull****ting to you. BAN IT. I am telling you from experience that in the new Standard, Bloodbraid Elf is a broken card that is going to overcentralize the game. BAN IT. Make a rule that bans Bloodbraid Elf from Standard despite what Wizards has been telling you about the format being healthy. You, as a store, have power over what you can and can't do. Free spells have always been a problem in MTG and Bloodbraid Elf makes this no less of a relief. After the monster that was Affinity, we'll have people EVERYWHERE playing the 3/2 haster for 4 mana (which is already great as is) with the ability for a guaranteed free spell for enormous and game breaking card advantage. Do you want people to travel to FNMs, States, PTQs, and GPs just to see THAT?
For those of you who aren't experienced in MTG, free spells have plagued the game ever since the beginning. Cascade was looking to be a shady mechanic to begin with; it looked like crappy cards would keep it in check, but Bloodbraid Elf is the straw that broke the camel's back. Playing spells for free at such a powerful, efficient cost ruins the game for everyone; free spells are an EXPLOITATION OF THE RULES. I was testing out a RDW deck for the upcoming Standard and I realized that I could just make a really easy splash into green for Bloodbraid Elf, which greatly enhanced the firepower of the deck unlike anything else. My playtest partner has also gone into playing a playset of Bloodbraid Elves for his 5cc deck, effectively turning it into a variant of 5CB. Another one of our FNM regulars who has loved Elves since forever has also seen how broken Bloodbraid Elf is and has splashed red JUST FOR BLOODBRAID ELF. Having a relevant creature type does not do this card any favors.
There is no positive effect of allowing Bloodbraid Elf in tournament play, all it does is ruin the game completely. We need to draw a line and ban Bloodbraid Elf to keep aggro decks from completely taking over MTG or this won't even be a GAME anymore. Unless you want to the format to be really boring and broken, I suggest you listen to my advice. As far as I'm concerned, I like PLAYING my opponents with all sorts of archetypes; aggro, control, aggro-control, and combo decks. Playing nothing but aggro in the post-M10 standard is going to make people begin to quit the game again because of letting cards like Bloodbraid Elf get past their playtesters for some reason. Bloodbraid Elf is the card that pushes aggro decks to broken levels. Control and combo decks might as well just give up or join everyone else and play Bloodbraid Elf. Not banning Bloodbraid Elf will literally RUIN Magic; we need to do some sort of damage control to keep people from losing faith in the game.
Thanks for your time, and please do listen to this. I enjoy PLAYING my opponents instead of just mindlessly goldfishing some aggro deck that makes it go past critical mass with Bloodbraid Elf.
In all reality though, I don't see BBE getting banned. The window of opportunity was back in March 1 when the bannings were scheduled like they usually are, and that window has passed. If BBE was banned, it wouldn't be until June 1 (no the emergency ban isn't going to be used...) and it will already be ready to rotate out anyway. That's when Wizards would usually institute their "just wait for it to rotate out in a short time frame instead of taking other action" train of thought.
A lot can change though in just under three months though.
Whine, whine, whine. Yeah, BBE is so overpowered that its rarely played in any other format. Give me a break. Ever time there is a dominate deck people want to ban a card from it. There was Bitterblossom, Tarmogoyf, Baneslayer and now Bloodbraid Elf. People are overreacting, there is no need to ban the card.
BBE is just above the curve. Jund is synergistic, not as much as Fae ever was but at least it is synergistic and Wizards somehow decided to put the best Cascade cards into Jund colors.
I fully blame Wizards for trying to believe that a free spell mechanic can rear its head in Standard. But the monster has been let loose, and we should just try and take things in our stride and try to win against the monster.
Blightning is so unique in its functions against the other shards, that if you want to stop the massive card advantage engine Jund has, Blightning is your guy. When you have an opening hand of 3 Blightnings and 4 land, and you've destroyed your opponents hand, and are beating them in a life race total at the same time; something is wrong.
Trust me, Jund would be horrible with Mind Rots in Blightning's place. I am in no way saying that BBE is replacable by any standards, but "Lose two cards, and destroy your planeswalker" is superman compared to Oblivion Ring.
Jund isn't really the "best" deck, it is a good deck that is why everyone plays it. I seriously have more trouble against fae when it was standard league.
Naya=50/50 vs jund
rdw= beats jund most of the time
ww= beats jund most of the time
open the vaults= favored vs jund
grixis(with spreading seas maindeck)= favored vs jund
u/w/r LSV control deck= favored against jund
valakut=even to favored against jund
junk and bant and elves adn u/w control= slightly worse against jund but not by much
boros/vampire/jank-good machup(tho boros not by much)
now out of those decks only naya and valakut ran bloodbraid elves, does it look like a dominating card? The answer is no. Is it good? definitely.
He is so man, he is mario, and I will tell my opponents such. As and when I bounce their permanent I will exclaim "MARIO" as though he were stomped on by our mighty Jace. Every time someone kill him I will give them 99 USD (not AUS!!!) because their lightning bolt should cost 100 DOLLARS...
Jace even made it into the Teenage Super Hero Mutant Ninja Hero Turtles.
Whine, whine, whine. Yeah, BBE is so overpowered that its rarely played in any other format. Give me a break. Ever time there is a dominate deck people want to ban a card from it. There was Bitterblossom, Tarmogoyf, Baneslayer and now Bloodbraid Elf. People are overreacting, there is no need to ban the card.
I wouldn't ban it, because it is used in other good decks like Naya, decks that wouldn't deserve such a thing.
Thats utterly pointless. Sure it would be more impressive if it were played in other formats, but that wouldn't make it any less broken. BTW...
I don't think Baneslayer or Tarmogoyf should be banned, but yeah Bitterblosom should have been.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern (I collect the format):
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron WDeath and Taxes WSoul Sisters RWG Pod Combo URSplinter Twin URStorm RBurn
There is no curve for Bloodbraid. if it was 5 to play, it'd be just as broken, flying into 4cmc spells.
Well, Jund's main power stems from the fact that it possesses some of the strongest 3-drops in the Alara block. Maelstrom Pulse, Blightning, Thrinax contributes to the raw CA that Jund has. Add to the fact that Bloodbraid allows you to invest 4 mana in for a 3/2 haste body with a powerful spell/creature, and it is no wonder that Jund can hold claim to the best deck in the current Standard.
I guess my main point is, BBE is sick, but it is because the things surrounding the color pie is deadly too. And the fact that free spell mechanics are never a good idea. You never know how it can turn out so it becomes underpowered or overpowered.
As I see it, cascade isn't really the problem, rather that Jund can abuse the mechanic better than other decks because two of the best cascade spells (Bloodbraid Elf and Bituminous Blast) fall in its colors and fit well into the deck (see delicious, delicious Blightning).
If the advantage cascade provides Jund extended readily into other archetypes, I don't think we'd have as much of a reason to complain about Bloodbraid Elf.
Even though you may be right, I think it be more beneficial to ban Blightning. Naya runs BBE and it's good but it's not the house Jund is. Blightning however, would make it more sane. Granted, this is all besides the point that this meta would never see a banning... not to mention there is only six months to go before rotation so all in all talking about banning cards in standard is kind of irrelevant.
Blightning was absolutely not even be in the deck if it weren't for bloodbraid elf.
Heres a question if all these decks say they have such a great match up againest Jund then why do you see Jund all the time. It doesnt have very bad much ups and its very cheap to make. Mealstorm pulse is the most expensive card everything else is really cheap. Cascade was a stupid error by Wizards and They are never going to restart it ever again.
Dont ban Bloodbraid just make sure this mechanic never gets a reprinted in future sets and hopefully Wizards R&D makes for a better mechanic later.
Their probably not going to ban it, even though they should.
At the very least they need to do what they did for Fae, and print some hoser cards. Where is the Fallout or GSS against Jund? Bring back Paladin or make something that hoses Cascade. Otherwise Standard is terrible until the Fall.
Heres a question if all these decks say they have such a great match up againest Jund then why do you see Jund all the time. It doesnt have very bad much ups and its very cheap to make.
Yeah there's this: Jund doesn't have a terrible matchup against many decks and it's brainless to pilot. What should I do? Drop Thrinax? Ok...next turn BBE->Blightning...done.
The other thing about this debate is really that we have a case of perception becoming reality to a certain extent. What I mean is that people don't get too upset when they get beaten down by a swarm of elves, but what they HATE is to have an advantage in board position, then get Bit Blasted->BBE->Blightning/Maelstrom Pulse. That barely ever actually happens, but by god you remember it when it does. BBE->Blightning is a similar feeling, if slightly downgraded. So, to a lot of people Jund seems more powerful than it really is because of the occasional crazy skill-less come-from-behind wins, and again the fact that your deck can't play a hasty creature/lava spike/mind rot all for 4 mana just seems unfair.
Looking at the Jund win percentages at the big tournaments, it doesn't seem too over-represented in the top 16 vs. it's overall representation in the field. It's just easy, moderately effective, forgiving of play mistakes, and cheap to build.
The difference between Jund using BBE and other decks is that Junds cascade is built to be a major impact from the BBE unlike say boss naya (which can hit alot of mana dorks, equipment. etc)
Jund will hit
Thats mostly what you will see from a typical Jund Deck. So obviously most of those cascades are very "live" targets and can present some serious problems for your opponents.
Now when you take that into account, followed by all the other '2 for 1'' effects jund has built in (Double Dragon, Seige Gang, Garruk (kinda), Master of the wild hunt) and its early board presence (Leech, Sprouting thirnax) in addition to its amazing removal package (Bolt, Term, Pulse) then its easy to see why Jund is such a well rounded beast of burden. It survives and can present pressure early on an opponent, has a great mid game, has a great end game with finishers like Double Dragon, Seige etc. And has answer cards to almost any type of threat an opponent can throw at you.
All in all Jund is just a very VERY well rounded deck.. theres a reason that like 40% or moer of most metas play it.. its because it is a true beast of burden and is the perfect deck to take to a field thats jammed full of unknowns as it doesnt truly have a bad match up vs anything (excluding spread em heh) and even when it does have a bad matchup, thanks to the "broken" cascade ability can still pull out some amazing tricks/ wins!
Its more the mechanic then the card. Take cascade off bbe and the card would rarely be played at all. Saying that I went to a small local event this weekend, probably 40 people playing, half the field was jund in different forms and only one made top 4. Top 4 consisted of jund,aggro allies, elves, and grixis control. BBE is not as bad as some other broken cards they have printed in the past sets, Its much more the mechanic and the other synergenic cards in the format now.
Lets see where the format goes in 6 months when she is gone.
I think the real culprit is not BBE, it's the ridiculously cheap and overpowered 3cc cards that BBE and cascade into. Make Blightning and Maelstrom cost 4, and watch Jund drop down a notch.
I think it's telling that the only non-Jund deck reliably making top 8's now is Naya, and that deck also plays 4 BBE. Heck, even the Spread 'Em that finished 2nd in Indy had 4 BBE, which means 28 out of a possible 32 BBE's in the top 8 decks (only one not playing it was Mythic Bant). I think that speaks to how powerful the card is.
I'm not sure whether to ban it or not. The fact that it cascades into Blightning, as others have said, is equally problematic. In fact, RDW found a way to win the GP by splashing black for...drum roll please...Blightning (I think it was over Plated Geopede IIRC but that's not really important in this discussion). So it's hard to say which one's the culprit, but it would be really nice if Wizards could somehow intervene and level the playing field - preferably with a good anti-Jund and/or anti-Cascade card in RoE, but if RoE doesnt' solve anything, I think I'd be OK with banning one of those two cards when the time comes.
They didn't necessarily ban it just because it was dominant, although it was, but because people didn't think it was very fun to play against something that when it got a good hand was extremely hard to beat.
Jund is both extremely prevalent in the Meta and winning almost all major level tournaments (6 out of 8 Top 8 Decks at Lampur, even without the final win which was taken by something anti-Jund). You have to play Jund, or a deck that directly beats it, but leaves itself open to the rest of the field thus making Jund better. It sounds ALOT like Affinity, Anti-Affinity when those were the only 2 real decks to play.
Being ahead on Board, in control of the game, only to have your opponent rip BBE and Cascade into a win they didn't deserve seems to be the epitome of unfun Magic.
I think the real culprit is not BBE, it's the ridiculously cheap and overpowered 3cc cards that BBE and cascade into. Make Blightning and Maelstrom cost 4, and watch Jund drop down a notch.
But the thing is, by themselves, those cards aren't overpowered. It is just the Bloodbraid Elf into them that makes them so crippling.
That said, I'm not for banning BBElf, but it undeniably is what makes Jund so violent.
As other's have said BBE is far from being broken, it's just really good. Naya runs BBE elf also and Cascades into stuff like Wooly Thoctar and KotR along with othe Card advantage engines such as Ranger of Eos and Stoneforge Mystic. Jund just seems to have a slightly stonger overall card pool with Blightning, Thrinax, Pulse etc.
I think the problem is more that the rest of the decks in the field just aren't that good. Look at standard last rotation. Blightning was never played for fear of Wilt-Leaf Liege. Maelstom Pulse was good but a lot of times couldn't keep up with tokens or Kithkin. There was a good control deck in the format in Faeries. G/B elves was a decent deck that could use some of what Jund has today.
All in all, Jund is good, but it's only the best now because the rest of the meta is kinda crappy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Bloodbraid Elf is clearly the piece in the Jund pie that pushes it over the top, makes it absolutely dominate the format.
Not since Affinity has a deck so completely dominated the standard format-Fae didn't because there was also 5CC, RDW, Kithkin as strong decks.
Yes decks like Mythic Bant and Boss Naya are cute but also consistently get beaten by jund.
I'm not complaining about Jund, it is a solid deck and broken by no means, but Bloodbraid Elf is just an overpowered undercosted CA engine, and by banning it, it would increase the enjoyment and diversity of standard for all.
Wizards should just man up. Printing BBElf was a mistake. It's time to show it the banhammer.
Even though you may be right, I think it be more beneficial to ban Blightning. Naya runs BBE and it's good but it's not the house Jund is. Blightning however, would make it more sane. Granted, this is all besides the point that this meta would never see a banning... not to mention there is only six months to go before rotation so all in all talking about banning cards in standard is kind of irrelevant.
hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent
In all reality though, I don't see BBE getting banned. The window of opportunity was back in March 1 when the bannings were scheduled like they usually are, and that window has passed. If BBE was banned, it wouldn't be until June 1 (no the emergency ban isn't going to be used...) and it will already be ready to rotate out anyway. That's when Wizards would usually institute their "just wait for it to rotate out in a short time frame instead of taking other action" train of thought.
A lot can change though in just under three months though.
I fully blame Wizards for trying to believe that a free spell mechanic can rear its head in Standard. But the monster has been let loose, and we should just try and take things in our stride and try to win against the monster.
Currently playing:
T2
BW Aggro-Midrange BW
Trust me, Jund would be horrible with Mind Rots in Blightning's place. I am in no way saying that BBE is replacable by any standards, but "Lose two cards, and destroy your planeswalker" is superman compared to Oblivion Ring.
Naya=50/50 vs jund
rdw= beats jund most of the time
ww= beats jund most of the time
open the vaults= favored vs jund
grixis(with spreading seas maindeck)= favored vs jund
u/w/r LSV control deck= favored against jund
valakut=even to favored against jund
junk and bant and elves adn u/w control= slightly worse against jund but not by much
boros/vampire/jank-good machup(tho boros not by much)
now out of those decks only naya and valakut ran bloodbraid elves, does it look like a dominating card? The answer is no. Is it good? definitely.
Thats utterly pointless. Sure it would be more impressive if it were played in other formats, but that wouldn't make it any less broken. BTW...
I don't think Baneslayer or Tarmogoyf should be banned, but yeah Bitterblosom should have been.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
Well, Jund's main power stems from the fact that it possesses some of the strongest 3-drops in the Alara block. Maelstrom Pulse, Blightning, Thrinax contributes to the raw CA that Jund has. Add to the fact that Bloodbraid allows you to invest 4 mana in for a 3/2 haste body with a powerful spell/creature, and it is no wonder that Jund can hold claim to the best deck in the current Standard.
I guess my main point is, BBE is sick, but it is because the things surrounding the color pie is deadly too. And the fact that free spell mechanics are never a good idea. You never know how it can turn out so it becomes underpowered or overpowered.
Currently playing:
T2
BW Aggro-Midrange BW
If the advantage cascade provides Jund extended readily into other archetypes, I don't think we'd have as much of a reason to complain about Bloodbraid Elf.
My LinkedIn profile... thing (I have one of those now!).
My research team's webpage.
The mtg-rnn repo and the mtg-encode repo.
Blightning was absolutely not even be in the deck if it weren't for bloodbraid elf.
Dont ban Bloodbraid just make sure this mechanic never gets a reprinted in future sets and hopefully Wizards R&D makes for a better mechanic later.
At the very least they need to do what they did for Fae, and print some hoser cards. Where is the Fallout or GSS against Jund? Bring back Paladin or make something that hoses Cascade. Otherwise Standard is terrible until the Fall.
Yeah there's this: Jund doesn't have a terrible matchup against many decks and it's brainless to pilot. What should I do? Drop Thrinax? Ok...next turn BBE->Blightning...done.
The other thing about this debate is really that we have a case of perception becoming reality to a certain extent. What I mean is that people don't get too upset when they get beaten down by a swarm of elves, but what they HATE is to have an advantage in board position, then get Bit Blasted->BBE->Blightning/Maelstrom Pulse. That barely ever actually happens, but by god you remember it when it does. BBE->Blightning is a similar feeling, if slightly downgraded. So, to a lot of people Jund seems more powerful than it really is because of the occasional crazy skill-less come-from-behind wins, and again the fact that your deck can't play a hasty creature/lava spike/mind rot all for 4 mana just seems unfair.
Looking at the Jund win percentages at the big tournaments, it doesn't seem too over-represented in the top 16 vs. it's overall representation in the field. It's just easy, moderately effective, forgiving of play mistakes, and cheap to build.
Fae and Affinity were worse in my opinion.
Jund will hit
BBE -> Blightning
BBE -> Sprouting
BBE -> Mind Rot
BBE -> GSS
BBE -> Borderland Ranger
BBE -> Rampant/Explore
BBE -> Terminate, Maelstrom pulse, Lightning bolt, Deathmark
Thats mostly what you will see from a typical Jund Deck. So obviously most of those cascades are very "live" targets and can present some serious problems for your opponents.
Now when you take that into account, followed by all the other '2 for 1'' effects jund has built in (Double Dragon, Seige Gang, Garruk (kinda), Master of the wild hunt) and its early board presence (Leech, Sprouting thirnax) in addition to its amazing removal package (Bolt, Term, Pulse) then its easy to see why Jund is such a well rounded beast of burden. It survives and can present pressure early on an opponent, has a great mid game, has a great end game with finishers like Double Dragon, Seige etc. And has answer cards to almost any type of threat an opponent can throw at you.
All in all Jund is just a very VERY well rounded deck.. theres a reason that like 40% or moer of most metas play it.. its because it is a true beast of burden and is the perfect deck to take to a field thats jammed full of unknowns as it doesnt truly have a bad match up vs anything (excluding spread em heh) and even when it does have a bad matchup, thanks to the "broken" cascade ability can still pull out some amazing tricks/ wins!
Lets see where the format goes in 6 months when she is gone.
I wouldn't exactly call that fair Magic. But I also wouldn't call for a ban. Wizards just saddens me with their design skills.
Do I think it should be banned? No. Is it easily the most powerful card in the format? Yes.
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
I'm not sure whether to ban it or not. The fact that it cascades into Blightning, as others have said, is equally problematic. In fact, RDW found a way to win the GP by splashing black for...drum roll please...Blightning (I think it was over Plated Geopede IIRC but that's not really important in this discussion). So it's hard to say which one's the culprit, but it would be really nice if Wizards could somehow intervene and level the playing field - preferably with a good anti-Jund and/or anti-Cascade card in RoE, but if RoE doesnt' solve anything, I think I'd be OK with banning one of those two cards when the time comes.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/af56
They didn't necessarily ban it just because it was dominant, although it was, but because people didn't think it was very fun to play against something that when it got a good hand was extremely hard to beat.
Jund is both extremely prevalent in the Meta and winning almost all major level tournaments (6 out of 8 Top 8 Decks at Lampur, even without the final win which was taken by something anti-Jund). You have to play Jund, or a deck that directly beats it, but leaves itself open to the rest of the field thus making Jund better. It sounds ALOT like Affinity, Anti-Affinity when those were the only 2 real decks to play.
Being ahead on Board, in control of the game, only to have your opponent rip BBE and Cascade into a win they didn't deserve seems to be the epitome of unfun Magic.
That said, I'm not for banning BBElf, but it undeniably is what makes Jund so violent.
All in all, Jund is good, but it's only the best now because the rest of the meta is kinda crappy.