The life gain alone is enough to beat Jund half the time because if they can't get you down to lethal range in the first 6-7 turns, they usually don't win. They just can't keep up with active Emeria. Ruinblaster is a *****, but you still have a ton of ways to win. This is just off the top of my head but the amount of life gain and card draw makes me think it could work.
I really wanted the felidar win, but 9/10 times I found it was just win more, or I wasn't able to win off of him because I already had them at 0. Of course, you should probably include Elspeth and Gideon in that list somewhere Burcke, they're just too good to not use. Been toying around with this list, so far it's incredibly strong. Obviously 3 blightnings in a row make me lose, but who doesn't.
Haven't formulated a sideboard, but it would probably include the new enchantment that deals one damage to each attacker for each attacker, and some jund hate. Gideon is a HOUSE in this deck, as well as admonition angel. After they get done terminating your baneslayers/linvalas/etc... they are pretty pissed when they can't remove the big angel.
"The accumulation of their filth will foam up around their waists, and all the [prostitutes] and politicians will look up and shout, 'SAVE US.' and I'll look down and whisper,'No.'"
Lapse of Certainty makes me pretty certain I'm not playing with that card, but a good replacement for Survival Cache is Repel the Darkness I think. Its got a bit of synergy with Gideon and isn't situational. Heres what I'm grabbing right now:
This deck will, as MWC often does, eat mid-range decks alive. Vampires, Naya, WW will all pose little problems for the deck. Post board it should have excellent games againt Boros/RDW/Goblins. Against Jund pre-board seems negative, and with a good Jund player, post board will probably end up the same.
Lapse of Certainty makes me pretty certain I'm not playing with that card, but a good replacement for Survival Cache is Repel the Darkness I think. Its got a bit of synergy with Gideon and isn't situational.
I don't know man, doesn't seem very impressive to me. At least it cantrips i guess.
I don't know man, doesn't seem very impressive to me. At least it cantrips i guess.
Its instant speed and it taps two creatures, possibly your opponents baneslayer or that stupid cascading elf. Your probably saving yourself tons of life. Possibly the game if its some super pumped up ultra scary finisher. And its instant speed. If your winning, you can finish the game right then by tapping out their creatures and swinging. And as said before it mixes well with Gideon.
On the other hand Survival just gives 2 life at sorcery speed. Late game, the rebound will come in handy after you get a baneslayer, but that's a bit of a win-more scenario.
@Lightmine Field: I think this card is really bad, even in sideboards. Its very easy to play around.
@Repel the Darkness: I thought this card untapped your dudes, not the other way around. I like it much better now; its a fog that cantrips. Definitely a possibility.
@Stover: Arimilary Sphere is very good. I think a set of Emeria is also the way to go.
Don't forget that Repel the Darkness is good on the offensive as well. You know, I really never liked Lightmine Field either, whats another good card against aggro decks?
Edit: eh, forget it, I'll just work on my other match-ups.
@Stover: Arimilary Sphere is very good. I think a set of Emeria is also the way to go.
I think Emeria is ok as a 3-of. Play the full set is not very needed and you need 7 plains to make it work. Once you have one in play you will probably want to draw more Plains instead of more Emerias.
I'm currently working with a MWC build (post-ROE) that looks a little different than most here - I'll post tomorrow after play-testing tonight. Does no one like Silence in their build? Stalling out Jund a couple of turns between turn 3 and 6 is usually the difference between a win and a loss, based on my experience.
I think Emeria is ok as a 3-of. Play the full set is not very needed and you need 7 plains to make it work. Once you have one in play you will probably want to draw more Plains instead of more Emerias.
Your right, if you already have one Emeria in play, you don't want to see more (until it gets active), but you need to actually draw the land before you can be in the situation to not need it. Having an additional one increases that chance.
I'm currently working with a MWC build (post-ROE) that looks a little different than most here - I'll post tomorrow after play-testing tonight. Does no one like Silence in their build? Stalling out Jund a couple of turns between turn 3 and 6 is usually the difference between a win and a loss, based on my experience.
You know what, Silence, is kinda interesting with Gideon, but other than that, it really is only good in a tempo deck. Unfortunately, this is not a tempo deck and I don't know if you could make a good tempo deck in this standard.
But there is a slight possibility of using some tempo tricks. Oust + Excommunicate for example can stop decks from drawing land. When Path eventually goes out of standard I might start considering stuff like this more seriously.
I don't understand the idea of using sac lands + Survival Cache that is being used in a few decks. If you pull an opening hand of Sac/Sac/Plains, you won't be able to cast Cache and draw which would be the optimum thing to do.
The again, I don't see the point of using the sac lands at all in a mono-W control deck. You're not getting landfall triggers, and you don't have any kind of recursion to re-use the graveyard lands in any way. If "thinning your deck" is your reason, there have been various studies/examples of this kind of thing having a very minimal effect on card draw probability.
I don't understand the idea of using sac lands + Survival Cache that is being used in a few decks. If you pull an opening hand of Sac/Sac/Plains, you won't be able to cast Cache and draw which would be the optimum thing to do.
The again, I don't see the point of using the sac lands at all in a mono-W control deck. You're not getting landfall triggers, and you don't have any kind of recursion to re-use the graveyard lands in any way. If "thinning your deck" is your reason, there have been various studies/examples of this kind of thing having a very minimal effect on card draw probability.
Its because it thins your deck. I'd like to know what studies or examples your talking about, because I don't see everyone playing 80 card decks very often.
You use the sac lands so you'll have better chances of grabbing baneslayer Angel, the true life gain card of any deck. Besides, we'll be playing against Jund most likely, and they have putrid leech, so your higher up on the life chain anyways. Not to mention you gain 2 life first, before you know if the rebound happens.
I don't understand the idea of using sac lands + Survival Cache that is being used in a few decks. If you pull an opening hand of Sac/Sac/Plains, you won't be able to cast Cache and draw which would be the optimum thing to do.
The again, I don't see the point of using the sac lands at all in a mono-W control deck. You're not getting landfall triggers, and you don't have any kind of recursion to re-use the graveyard lands in any way. If "thinning your deck" is your reason, there have been various studies/examples of this kind of thing having a very minimal effect on card draw probability.
The situation actually happened to me a few times, but you can wait to draw another plains and you don't actually have to sac the fetch the same turn you play that, so you don't lose your land drop.
That said, i would like to further debate the effectivity of the fetches in MWC...
It seems obvious to me that it does thin the deck, wheter people like it or not, i am just not sure if it is enough to be more relevant than the 1 point of life you lose in the process.
Its because it thins your deck. I'd like to know what studies or examples your talking about, because I don't see everyone playing 80 card decks very often.
You use the sac lands so you'll have better chances of grabbing baneslayer Angel, the true life gain card of any deck. Besides, we'll be playing against Jund most likely, and they have putrid leech, so your higher up on the life chain anyways. Not to mention you gain 2 life first, before you know if the rebound happens.
A quick search on "deck thinning" and you come up with this from another member:
And those graphs and data are for 60-card Magic. No one plays fetchlands for the purpose of thinning out their deck.
I wouldn't bet on playing against any one deck, and as it is, all they'd have to do is Lightning Bolt you in response (or if they're connecting with said Putrid Leech).
The situation actually happened to me a few times, but you can wait to draw another plains and you don't actually have to sac the fetch the same turn you play that, so you don't lose your land drop.
That said, i would like to further debate the effectivity of the fetches in MWC...
It seems obvious to me that it does thin the deck, wheter people like it or not, i am just not sure if it is enough to be more relevant than the 1 point of life you lose in the process.
I would certainly play fetches in a aggro deck for the minimal effect you get to try to smash face as quickly as possible. Not in a control deck though where there's anti-synergy going on with them. Playing fetches over plains also diminishes your chances of getting your Emeria, the Sky Ruin online since there's less Plains to be had right from the get-go.
A quick search on "deck thinning" and you come up with this from another member:
I wouldn't bet on playing against any one deck, and as it is, all they'd have to do is Lightning Bolt you in response (or if they're connecting with said Putrid Leech).
It is not about Survival Cache, the card is good when played right.
And as i said, it does not take a genius to know that there is an impact. If you crack 3 fetches in a game you have 3 plains less in your deck, it DOES make an impact in the long run, but does the worth to Lightning bolt yourself in the process?
A quick search on "deck thinning" and you come up with this from another member:
I wouldn't bet on playing against any one deck, and as it is, all they'd have to do is Lightning Bolt you in response (or if they're connecting with said Putrid Leech).
Card Advantage is Card Advantage, even the article your looking at proves that you gain Card Advantage. Is it worth the life loss? The author doesn't think so, but his tests didn't involve multiple cantripping cards.
Also, not all cards are built the same, if I draw my best card early, that can put me in the lead. The tests don't involve values like summoning sickness, the current meta game, ect. I wouldn't expect him to include that. I can't say that I've done any simulations, but you have to admit, finding the probability of a specific deck is incredibly hard to calculate. And there are just as many counter-arguements you could postulate.
The way I look at it is I don't want to take a loss of life, the people that use the fetches don't actually "thin thier deck" and if you remove two cards in one turn you still effectively miss whatever you where looking for that turn is the way I look at it.
Another thing is you can "thin" your deck by using other cards in the current standard that will yeild better results than the fetchlands if your not using them for the actual landfall trigger. I would rather use Knight of the White Orchid and Wall of Omen, I consider those a two for one your getting a creature and a card/land which is considerably better than getting a land that you could have already drawn in place of a fetch and not losing 1 life.
MWC has no place for fetches when there are cards that can be added to make the actual control deck better.
If you have 24 lands in a 60 card deck you have a 40% chance to draw land. Which is the same weather you add the fetches or make room for a better drop that can protect you early in the game. Also with levelers like Transcendent Master I think I would prefer the extra land so I have mana to pump him.
If I wanted to exclusively thin lands I would run Amilary Sphere (sp?)
In my build, I run fetches and KotWO and Wall of Omens because I feel they are all good cards. My opinion: more thin generally equals better, especially when your running mono-color. All I'm saying.
Anyways, I don't think its a major problem we need to be thinking about anyways. Unless you logically can prove that decks with fetches will lose more than decks without fetches or visa versa we're all wasting our time.
My main concern is if we should be running Survival Cache or Repel the Darkness (or both). The latter just seems a bit better to me.
The list follows:
20 Plains
3 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Mystifying Maze
Creatures
4 Wall of Omens
4 Baneslayer Angel
3 Sun Titan
3 Transcendent Master
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Path to Exile
Sorcery
3 Day of Judgment
2 Martial Coup
Artifacts
2 Scepter of Dominance
Enchantments
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Marshal's Anthem
Planeswalkers
2 Gideon Jura
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Leyline of Sancitity
4 Kor Firewalker
4 Devout lightcaster
3 Luminarch ascension
4 Wall of Reverance
4 Baneslayer Angel
3 Felidar Sovereign
4 Path to Exile
4 Rest for the Weary
4 Survival Cache
3 Day of Judgment
2 Martial Coup
2 Landbind Ritual
22 Plains
The life gain alone is enough to beat Jund half the time because if they can't get you down to lethal range in the first 6-7 turns, they usually don't win. They just can't keep up with active Emeria. Ruinblaster is a *****, but you still have a ton of ways to win. This is just off the top of my head but the amount of life gain and card draw makes me think it could work.
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Baneslayer Angel
4 Wall of Omens
3 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2 Admonition Angel
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Day of Judgement
4 Survival Cache
4 Path to Exile
2 Martial Coup
Haven't formulated a sideboard, but it would probably include the new enchantment that deals one damage to each attacker for each attacker, and some jund hate. Gideon is a HOUSE in this deck, as well as admonition angel. After they get done terminating your baneslayers/linvalas/etc... they are pretty pissed when they can't remove the big angel.
I am considering this as SB, but haven't needed so far.
Blightning is a pain, Survival Cache helps but doesn't solve the problem totally. Anybody knows something better?
10 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
3 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
4 Tectonic Edge
Main Deck-35
3 Path to Exile
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Wall of Omens
4 Repel the Darkness
4 Survival Cache
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Day of Judgment
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Baneslayer Angel
2 Gideon Jura
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Kor Firewalker
3 Luminarch Ascension
4 Devout Lightcaster
4 Emeria Angel
3x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Gideon Jurra
2x Luminarch Ascension
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
Defense:
4x Emeria Angel
4x Wall of Reverence
4x Wall of Omens
1x Lapse of Certainty
2x Path to Exile
4x Oblivion Ring
3x Day of Judgement
2x Martial Coup
This card seems really good:
4x Armillary Sphere
When you have a landbase that includes:
3x Emeria, the Sky Ruin
21x Plains
2x Perimeter Captain
3x Celestial Purge
4x Kor Firewalker
4x Devout Lightcaster
1x Luminarch Ascension
1x Lapse of Certainty
This deck will, as MWC often does, eat mid-range decks alive. Vampires, Naya, WW will all pose little problems for the deck. Post board it should have excellent games againt Boros/RDW/Goblins. Against Jund pre-board seems negative, and with a good Jund player, post board will probably end up the same.
I play neat decks but not very well.
I don't know man, doesn't seem very impressive to me. At least it cantrips i guess.
Its instant speed and it taps two creatures, possibly your opponents baneslayer or that stupid cascading elf. Your probably saving yourself tons of life. Possibly the game if its some super pumped up ultra scary finisher. And its instant speed. If your winning, you can finish the game right then by tapping out their creatures and swinging. And as said before it mixes well with Gideon.
On the other hand Survival just gives 2 life at sorcery speed. Late game, the rebound will come in handy after you get a baneslayer, but that's a bit of a win-more scenario.
@Repel the Darkness: I thought this card untapped your dudes, not the other way around. I like it much better now; its a fog that cantrips. Definitely a possibility.
@Stover: Arimilary Sphere is very good. I think a set of Emeria is also the way to go.
Edit: eh, forget it, I'll just work on my other match-ups.
I think Emeria is ok as a 3-of. Play the full set is not very needed and you need 7 plains to make it work. Once you have one in play you will probably want to draw more Plains instead of more Emerias.
There are a lot of options in white: Perimeter Captain, Oust, Smite, Day of Judgement, etc...
Your right, if you already have one Emeria in play, you don't want to see more (until it gets active), but you need to actually draw the land before you can be in the situation to not need it. Having an additional one increases that chance.
You know what, Silence, is kinda interesting with Gideon, but other than that, it really is only good in a tempo deck. Unfortunately, this is not a tempo deck and I don't know if you could make a good tempo deck in this standard.
But there is a slight possibility of using some tempo tricks. Oust + Excommunicate for example can stop decks from drawing land. When Path eventually goes out of standard I might start considering stuff like this more seriously.
The again, I don't see the point of using the sac lands at all in a mono-W control deck. You're not getting landfall triggers, and you don't have any kind of recursion to re-use the graveyard lands in any way. If "thinning your deck" is your reason, there have been various studies/examples of this kind of thing having a very minimal effect on card draw probability.
Its because it thins your deck. I'd like to know what studies or examples your talking about, because I don't see everyone playing 80 card decks very often.
You use the sac lands so you'll have better chances of grabbing baneslayer Angel, the true life gain card of any deck. Besides, we'll be playing against Jund most likely, and they have putrid leech, so your higher up on the life chain anyways. Not to mention you gain 2 life first, before you know if the rebound happens.
The situation actually happened to me a few times, but you can wait to draw another plains and you don't actually have to sac the fetch the same turn you play that, so you don't lose your land drop.
That said, i would like to further debate the effectivity of the fetches in MWC...
It seems obvious to me that it does thin the deck, wheter people like it or not, i am just not sure if it is enough to be more relevant than the 1 point of life you lose in the process.
A quick search on "deck thinning" and you come up with this from another member:
I wouldn't bet on playing against any one deck, and as it is, all they'd have to do is Lightning Bolt you in response (or if they're connecting with said Putrid Leech).
I would certainly play fetches in a aggro deck for the minimal effect you get to try to smash face as quickly as possible. Not in a control deck though where there's anti-synergy going on with them. Playing fetches over plains also diminishes your chances of getting your Emeria, the Sky Ruin online since there's less Plains to be had right from the get-go.
It is not about Survival Cache, the card is good when played right.
And as i said, it does not take a genius to know that there is an impact. If you crack 3 fetches in a game you have 3 plains less in your deck, it DOES make an impact in the long run, but does the worth to Lightning bolt yourself in the process?
Card Advantage is Card Advantage, even the article your looking at proves that you gain Card Advantage. Is it worth the life loss? The author doesn't think so, but his tests didn't involve multiple cantripping cards.
Also, not all cards are built the same, if I draw my best card early, that can put me in the lead. The tests don't involve values like summoning sickness, the current meta game, ect. I wouldn't expect him to include that. I can't say that I've done any simulations, but you have to admit, finding the probability of a specific deck is incredibly hard to calculate. And there are just as many counter-arguements you could postulate.
Another thing is you can "thin" your deck by using other cards in the current standard that will yeild better results than the fetchlands if your not using them for the actual landfall trigger. I would rather use Knight of the White Orchid and Wall of Omen, I consider those a two for one your getting a creature and a card/land which is considerably better than getting a land that you could have already drawn in place of a fetch and not losing 1 life.
MWC has no place for fetches when there are cards that can be added to make the actual control deck better.
If you have 24 lands in a 60 card deck you have a 40% chance to draw land. Which is the same weather you add the fetches or make room for a better drop that can protect you early in the game. Also with levelers like Transcendent Master I think I would prefer the extra land so I have mana to pump him.
If I wanted to exclusively thin lands I would run Amilary Sphere (sp?)
Anyways, I don't think its a major problem we need to be thinking about anyways. Unless you logically can prove that decks with fetches will lose more than decks without fetches or visa versa we're all wasting our time.
My main concern is if we should be running Survival Cache or Repel the Darkness (or both). The latter just seems a bit better to me.
Here is an idea of what I'll be running.
2x Emeria, the Sky Ruin
4x Tectonic Edge
19x Plains
Creatures:
4x Perimeter Captain
4x Wall of Omens
3x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Gideon Jura
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Day of Judgment
3x Path to Exile
4x Survival Cache/Repel the Darkness
4x Everflowing Chalice
2x Luminarch Ascension
2x Lightmine Field
I am somewhat on a budget, so no BSA or Elspeth. But this what I have and it seems pretty good. Any comments are welcome