I think it would be really interesting to have a $200 cube list that people could use to get started with that includes all the cheap staples, and then fills the rest of the cube out with cards that see play in larger cubes, but are still super cheap to get a hold of.
Something a bit more powerful than a C/U Cube for players on a budget.
Heck, I wouldn't mind having a budget cube either--- one that I wouldn't feel bad taking with me places. It would probably get more play than my powered cube.
I'd like to actually develop this. Possibly tie into this for my next article, but regardless, I really like this idea as a way to work within unconventional constraints (not just common, rareless, powerless) and $200 seems like a good budget.
The first thing is how prices should be determined. One of the best ways to find cube bargains is to shop around and using the lowest price from all stores is certainly a way to show this, but would the end result be too sensitive to changes, or would something like a site like Channelfireball/Starcity that has generally stable prices be better?
I'd also like to test this out, but I've not been able to actually cube in a while, so I don't know if I can. Still, some ideas floating around.
I say pick a website (channelfireball/starcity/magic online) and just use there prices as a guide.
A $200 cube with 360 cards would average to $.56 a card. I think star city chargers a minimum of $.15 a card. So it should be doable, but might be difficult.
I just ran Calibretto's cube through Starcity Games. It cost $314.12 to get 373/380 cards (they didn't have 7 of them in stock)
And if you start cutting a couple of things (like Path to Exile were $7 for a played one) you could probably hammer down the cost to $200 quite quickly.
It makes me want to order the cube slightly. Just to see how much it would piss off whatever person would have to start poking through boxes to get 380 singles.
I think building a $200 cube list would be fine, but I don't know if you'd be able to get all the cube staples in there for $200. I really like the list of staples idea that wtwlf had of cross referencing several cubes from here in the forums and getting the staples list from unanimous card choices. Those cards could then be entered into a thread much like the thread from the EDH forums about why each card is good with each card listed separately with reasoning and an average price for it. Some staples are $0.50 (Qasali Pridemage) and others are $70.00 (Tarmogoyf). It's up to the cube designer to decide on a beginning budget and choose the staples that best fit that budget to get his/her cube list started.
They lists would be extremely different from a normal cube list that didn't have a budget restriction. It would be fun to see how people manage to work around the prices to get some of the staples in there.
Thing is? I bet you could get a lot of 'donations' from people who would be playing the Cube...commons and uncommons at least, and maybe even some rares.
I think saying that you have to pay $2 for a Lightning Bolt is a bit misleading. No one plays cardboard Magic in a bubble on a desert island but yet still has internet access/a local store that sells singles.
Thing is? I bet you could get a lot of 'donations' from people who would be playing the Cube...commons and uncommons at least, and maybe even some rares.
I think saying that you have to pay $2 for a Lightning Bolt is a bit misleading. No one plays cardboard Magic in a bubble on a desert island but yet still has internet access/a local store that sells singles.
but I don't know if you'd be able to get all the cube staples in there for $200.
In short, I won't be able to. Adding something like Baneslayer, Power or Jace, TMS would pretty much kill the budget. On average, a $200 budget would allow each section (WUBRG, Artifacts, Multicolor, land) to have about $25 each, to put it into perspective. I'm looking to maximize the value out of getting as many "evergreen" cards (cards that'll never leave a cube/cards agreed upon as powerful on a consensus basis) and getting the most value on the cards purchased. There are a ton of good cube cards that are dollar rares, so I think it'll be possible to do within the budget. At least, I'm thinking that it will work...
I'd probably say "If you have the money/access, add <so and so>" as the idea is to use the $200 as a base. I'm liking the median card value on findmagiccards/magiccards.info for a price basis, possibly adding something like a $3 cost per dealer used to approximate shipping costs and making the cube the size of my cube pre-expansion (50 cards per section, except 55 for multicolor.)
With regards to donations and personal collections, they're not a factor in the equation because they can't really be quantified. There may be some designers who have a many friends on the Pro Tour circuit and others who have just started and don't really have access to cards. Trying to create an average for this would be inconsistent and for now, I wouldn't consider it with the budget (similarly with card sleeves.)
I was shocked when I saw that too. Considering how many dozen's of lightning bolt's I've given away over the years.
put the most efficient burn spell ever made back into standard and that's what you get (if it wasn't common see it up in the $5+ range)
anyways, I think for this to be done correctly you have to strictly hold yourself to a set list of prices. it wouldn't mean anything if you counted worn down cards that are reduced priced (a card folded in half is worth nothing, but still playable in a sleeve). I say you have to use the near mint prices for cards, and I agree www.magiccards.info is a good standard. likely mid range prices, but could probably pick low to make it a bit more doable. the important thing is stick to a price guide, and no freebies, as not everyone has access to someone that can donate cards.
So are you going to pay .05-.10 per basic land too? Some cards can be obtained for free, and I think paying full retail for commons is a waste of time to even research it.
So are you going to pay .05-.10 per basic land too? Some cards can be obtained for free, and I think paying full retail for commons is a waste of time to even research it.
-AA
however most of the commons in cubes are worth something more than $0.05
I don't believe costs of land nor sleeves should be required, stick with just the card prices themselves.
however most of the commons in cubes are worth something more than $0.05
I don't believe costs of land nor sleeves should be required, stick with just the card prices themselves.
But I daresay the overwhelming majority of magic players has piles of commons/uncommons that sit around and do nothing, and for cards that can be included I don't think paying .50 for a Qasali Pridemage, .25 for a Llanowar Elf/Arbor Elf or the aforementioned $2 for a Lightning Bolt is remotely reasonable.
So are you going to pay .05-.10 per basic land too? Some cards can be obtained for free, and I think paying full retail for commons is a waste of time to even research it.
-AA
Slippery slope argument.
I have about 30 basics in each color and if anyone who is considering designing a cube doesn't somehow have enough basic lands to support a cube, I'd be shocked. Budget articles like building on a budget don't include lands in the cost for a good reason, because they're a non-factor and you can assume that designers will have that amount of basics.
I can't assume that a cube designer has access to free Lightning Bolts, Mulldrifters, Pridemages, random cube rares and the like because access to what a person has for free/already has is variant, hence why I'd research those costs as well. Hell, I had to proxy a Keldon Vandals for ages until I finally found one in a store, but I had plenty of copies of other older cards like Rancor and the like.
I usually buy from wherever has the cheapest price, if I'm ordering a bunch of cards, I'll make an excel sheet and determine costs from it. I also look through dollar boxes (I've seen so many Vesuvan Shapeshifters in them) for deals, but like "hookups" for cards, dollar box contents are variant so I'm not going to use them in this. I'll recommend them, sure, but due to variant content, I won't use them (as opposed to store contents which are relatively constant, especially for random 10-year old cube cards.)
So, do you actually buy cards from starcitygames? Their prices seem to be very high, especially when we are talking about those cheap, cube-friendly Rares. I know i wouldn't pay $2.50 for a Meloku. Or $12 for a Morphling.
Using their prices seems unrealistic to me.
If you guys from the States order cards, where do you do it?
I mostly order from Shuffleandcut.com anymore. The Standard staples don't deviate much in price from other online stores, but a lot of the other stuff, especially "cheap" cards are priced very well, in my experience. Btw, if anyone reading this is getting better prices, let me know where.
I would suggest picking two or three top stores and taking the cheapest singles from each. You can try to get something from them for including them (like a $20 card or similar). I would pick SCG, Trollandtoad and Channelfireball.
Btw I think this is a really good idea. I've been thinking about doing something similar myself, because I don't want to transport my expensive cube around. I think you should aim for 360 cards (45 in each section). If you want help I'll be happy to give suggestions and similar.
I think it's impossible to determine what the average magic player has lying around, and thus what you could exclude from the cost-analysis of this budget cube. It would be best to assume that the person who would want this $200 cube list has little, as it seems that the entire point of the project is to help people start up a cube from nothing.
So I agree with counting every card in the total cost, but excluding basic lands and sleeves. This is a great idea!
i did blue
20.64 in total
(We can easily bump some cards out and put some better stuff in)
But for about 20.00 u can do a lot worse that this grouping i feel
I am gonna put together the list of upgrades
Will edit shortly
The biggest problem I see is having all the money lumped into just a few cards and the rest being really mediocre. Are you going to run Recurring nightmare for instance? It runs anywhere from $10-20 by itself. I think you would def need to up the cost to 300 or even 400 for a truly good cube. 400 is more than reasonable for anyone. Hell I have multiple sets of 4 cards worth 400. I would also say that most people will have a good portion of them already.
is the point of this to get a good cube out of 200 bucks? or to get the maximum staples of an optimum cube for 200 bucks? personally i think the latter is a better choice. let the cube designer worry about filling in the gaps with subpar cards, why not just try and determine the maximum number of staples you can get for 200 bucks? otherwise you're "wasting" part of the budget on subpar cards that a cube designer with no budget wouldn't run. i think it would be more useful to put together a list of the cheapest cards that are cube staples, and then cut the most expensive on the list until you get to $200.
So, do you actually buy cards from starcitygames? Their prices seem to be very high, especially when we are talking about those cheap, cube-friendly Rares. I know i wouldn't pay $2.50 for a Meloku. Or $12 for a Morphling.
Using their prices seems unrealistic to me.
If you guys from the States order cards, where do you do it?
i agree strongly. websites like this jack up their prices ridiculously. i feel like the exercise is pointless if you use prices from a site like that. i have never and would never pay 7 bucks for a damn path to exile, for example. my preference is to find a good store with an honest owner. the current store i go to sells at motl prices 99% of the time, which are often half or less of what starcity tells you a card is worth. in the absence of a good store ebay will still often get you a better deal if you're patient.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
This sounds more like a "starter cube" scenario, rather than trying to purchase $5 cards. If you're building a $200 cube, your design is obviously restricted similarly to someone building a peasant cube due to cost. We shouldn't suggest something like Recurring Nightmare, of course.
It's going to run more sub-par cards than a finished cube, so just come up with the best cheap options you can. If you have to run Pacifism as a poor-man's substitute for Path to Exile, that should be fine. In the context of the cube itself it will even itself out - each color will have these same kinds of restrictions and it should lead to a balanced cube in the end that is still very fun to play, even if you don't get crazy cards like Moat, Ancestral Recall, Tarmagoyf, Juzam Djinn, and Imperial Recruiter.
Unless a card is clearly necessary for the cube, I wouldn't worry so much about putting it on the list if it costs more than a dollar.
That said, $200 is not a lot, and even good common/uncommon cubes are going to run close to that amount. You may not get too much out of the extra cards available to buy when the commons and uncommons are still the best bang for the buck.
That could be addressed by racking up our budget. If we set our limit at $300, we should be able to get to a much better list. Considering that only few people would actually have to pay $300 to put that list together, that would still be very useful.
i think you're right. $300 using starcitygames prices would probably be exactly right.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Yeah, I'm thinking $300 would likely be better (granted, I haven't been able to do any number crunching and have just thought of the idea at this point.) I don't know if $300 would be too high a ceiling, I know that I'd have been scared of the price limit if I saw that price range back before I made a cube, but I'm quite frugal.
I'd like to actually develop this. Possibly tie into this for my next article, but regardless, I really like this idea as a way to work within unconventional constraints (not just common, rareless, powerless) and $200 seems like a good budget.
The first thing is how prices should be determined. One of the best ways to find cube bargains is to shop around and using the lowest price from all stores is certainly a way to show this, but would the end result be too sensitive to changes, or would something like a site like Channelfireball/Starcity that has generally stable prices be better?
I'd also like to test this out, but I've not been able to actually cube in a while, so I don't know if I can. Still, some ideas floating around.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
A $200 cube with 360 cards would average to $.56 a card. I think star city chargers a minimum of $.15 a card. So it should be doable, but might be difficult.
I just ran Calibretto's cube through Starcity Games. It cost $314.12 to get 373/380 cards (they didn't have 7 of them in stock)
And if you start cutting a couple of things (like Path to Exile were $7 for a played one) you could probably hammer down the cost to $200 quite quickly.
It makes me want to order the cube slightly. Just to see how much it would piss off whatever person would have to start poking through boxes to get 380 singles.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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I think saying that you have to pay $2 for a Lightning Bolt is a bit misleading. No one plays cardboard Magic in a bubble on a desert island but yet still has internet access/a local store that sells singles.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
Bolt is a $2 card? Hot damned.
I was shocked when I saw that too. Considering how many dozen's of lightning bolt's I've given away over the years.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
In short, I won't be able to. Adding something like Baneslayer, Power or Jace, TMS would pretty much kill the budget. On average, a $200 budget would allow each section (WUBRG, Artifacts, Multicolor, land) to have about $25 each, to put it into perspective. I'm looking to maximize the value out of getting as many "evergreen" cards (cards that'll never leave a cube/cards agreed upon as powerful on a consensus basis) and getting the most value on the cards purchased. There are a ton of good cube cards that are dollar rares, so I think it'll be possible to do within the budget. At least, I'm thinking that it will work...
I'd probably say "If you have the money/access, add <so and so>" as the idea is to use the $200 as a base. I'm liking the median card value on findmagiccards/magiccards.info for a price basis, possibly adding something like a $3 cost per dealer used to approximate shipping costs and making the cube the size of my cube pre-expansion (50 cards per section, except 55 for multicolor.)
With regards to donations and personal collections, they're not a factor in the equation because they can't really be quantified. There may be some designers who have a many friends on the Pro Tour circuit and others who have just started and don't really have access to cards. Trying to create an average for this would be inconsistent and for now, I wouldn't consider it with the budget (similarly with card sleeves.)
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
put the most efficient burn spell ever made back into standard and that's what you get (if it wasn't common see it up in the $5+ range)
anyways, I think for this to be done correctly you have to strictly hold yourself to a set list of prices. it wouldn't mean anything if you counted worn down cards that are reduced priced (a card folded in half is worth nothing, but still playable in a sleeve). I say you have to use the near mint prices for cards, and I agree www.magiccards.info is a good standard. likely mid range prices, but could probably pick low to make it a bit more doable. the important thing is stick to a price guide, and no freebies, as not everyone has access to someone that can donate cards.
My Common/Uncommon Cube - I need to update the online list badly...
There's a Planeswalker for that! - Child of Alara, Mono-Planeswalker EDH
Savra Sack Off - Savra, Queen of the Golgari, Grave Pact Control EDH
Anthems of Heliod - Heliod, God of the Sun, Token & Anthem EDH
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
however most of the commons in cubes are worth something more than $0.05
I don't believe costs of land nor sleeves should be required, stick with just the card prices themselves.
My Common/Uncommon Cube - I need to update the online list badly...
There's a Planeswalker for that! - Child of Alara, Mono-Planeswalker EDH
Savra Sack Off - Savra, Queen of the Golgari, Grave Pact Control EDH
Anthems of Heliod - Heliod, God of the Sun, Token & Anthem EDH
But I daresay the overwhelming majority of magic players has piles of commons/uncommons that sit around and do nothing, and for cards that can be included I don't think paying .50 for a Qasali Pridemage, .25 for a Llanowar Elf/Arbor Elf or the aforementioned $2 for a Lightning Bolt is remotely reasonable.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
Slippery slope argument.
I have about 30 basics in each color and if anyone who is considering designing a cube doesn't somehow have enough basic lands to support a cube, I'd be shocked. Budget articles like building on a budget don't include lands in the cost for a good reason, because they're a non-factor and you can assume that designers will have that amount of basics.
I can't assume that a cube designer has access to free Lightning Bolts, Mulldrifters, Pridemages, random cube rares and the like because access to what a person has for free/already has is variant, hence why I'd research those costs as well. Hell, I had to proxy a Keldon Vandals for ages until I finally found one in a store, but I had plenty of copies of other older cards like Rancor and the like.
I usually buy from wherever has the cheapest price, if I'm ordering a bunch of cards, I'll make an excel sheet and determine costs from it. I also look through dollar boxes (I've seen so many Vesuvan Shapeshifters in them) for deals, but like "hookups" for cards, dollar box contents are variant so I'm not going to use them in this. I'll recommend them, sure, but due to variant content, I won't use them (as opposed to store contents which are relatively constant, especially for random 10-year old cube cards.)
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
I mostly order from Shuffleandcut.com anymore. The Standard staples don't deviate much in price from other online stores, but a lot of the other stuff, especially "cheap" cards are priced very well, in my experience. Btw, if anyone reading this is getting better prices, let me know where.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Btw I think this is a really good idea. I've been thinking about doing something similar myself, because I don't want to transport my expensive cube around. I think you should aim for 360 cards (45 in each section). If you want help I'll be happy to give suggestions and similar.
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
So I agree with counting every card in the total cost, but excluding basic lands and sleeves. This is a great idea!
My cube thread!
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Here's the link: http://deckstats.net/deck-119040-2dcd4914fbfe916ba151ecf82a933e83-en.html
Deck: WhiteBudgetCube
1x Akrasan Squire
1x Elite Vanguard
1x Goldmeadow Harrier
1x Icatian Javelineers
1x Steppe Lynx
1x Kor Skyfisher
1x Soltari Trooper
1x Squall Drifter
1x Ronom Unicorn
1x Wall of Omens
1x Order of Leitbur
1x Sigiled Paladin
1x Silver Knight
1x Soltari Monk
1x Soltari Priest
1x White Knight
1x Kor Sanctifiers
1x Mirror Entity
1x Soltari Champion
1x Stonecloaker
1x Mangara of Corondor
1x Mystic Crusader
1x Pianna, Nomad Captain
1x Galepowder Mage
1x Calciderm
1x Celestial Crusader
1x Emeria Angel
1x Hokori, Dust Drinker
1x Battlegrace Angel
1x Cloudgoat Ranger
1x Reveillark
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
1x Harm's Way
1x Mana Tithe
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Balance
1x Disenchant
1x Journey to Nowhere
1x Pacifism
1x Temporal Isolation
1x Arrest
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Scepter of Dominance
1x Spectral Procession
1x Armageddon
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Miraculous Recovery
1x Catastrophe
Display Deck Statistics
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
20.64 in total
(We can easily bump some cards out and put some better stuff in)
But for about 20.00 u can do a lot worse that this grouping i feel
I am gonna put together the list of upgrades
Will edit shortly
Blue Budget
29 Spells
19 Creatures
Alternatives
Alternatives < 3.00
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i agree strongly. websites like this jack up their prices ridiculously. i feel like the exercise is pointless if you use prices from a site like that. i have never and would never pay 7 bucks for a damn path to exile, for example. my preference is to find a good store with an honest owner. the current store i go to sells at motl prices 99% of the time, which are often half or less of what starcity tells you a card is worth. in the absence of a good store ebay will still often get you a better deal if you're patient.
It's going to run more sub-par cards than a finished cube, so just come up with the best cheap options you can. If you have to run Pacifism as a poor-man's substitute for Path to Exile, that should be fine. In the context of the cube itself it will even itself out - each color will have these same kinds of restrictions and it should lead to a balanced cube in the end that is still very fun to play, even if you don't get crazy cards like Moat, Ancestral Recall, Tarmagoyf, Juzam Djinn, and Imperial Recruiter.
Unless a card is clearly necessary for the cube, I wouldn't worry so much about putting it on the list if it costs more than a dollar.
That said, $200 is not a lot, and even good common/uncommon cubes are going to run close to that amount. You may not get too much out of the extra cards available to buy when the commons and uncommons are still the best bang for the buck.
My Cube Blog @theCubeMiser on Twitter
i think you're right. $300 using starcitygames prices would probably be exactly right.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)