My main concern with the deck is that I might not be running enough card drawing, but other than that, I'm quite pleased with it. Thoughts, comments, beratings?
Seems nifty. Your running Knowledge Exploitation, why not throw in Eye of the Storm for mega luls? (Play every instant and sorcery in all of your opponents decks an absurd amount of times.)
Seems nifty. Your running Knowledge Exploitation, why not throw in Eye of the Storm for mega luls? (Play every instant and sorcery in all of your opponents decks an absurd amount of times.)
Although it is hilarious, and probably would help the deck overall, I have a couple of problems with Eye that mean I'm probably not going to use it. Firstly, it is very easy to hijack, which is problematic if there's an extra turn spell on it. Secondly, and more importantly, people don't really like playing with the card. My experience from using it in my Group Hug deck is that once it gets to about 10 spells in a 4+-player game, it becomes so hard to keep track of that a lot of people tend to just scoop rather than fry their brains trying to do so.
I actually took this out ages ago, because it wasn't working as well I would have liked it to. The problem is that I don't tend to actually have Dralnu out very much, because he gets killed very quickly. Usually I cast him only if I have Greaves, or if I'm in the middle of a turn-taking spree and need him to add more. However, since I've souped the deck up considerably since that point, I might try it again.
I know, and I really want to fit it in. But the list is already really, really tight. I've had to throw out quite a few cards I really wanted to keep already, and since this guy is useless when I'm actually going off, he was one of them.
Speaking of which, are there any cards in the list that I should actually get rid of, and have been too blind to notice up to this point? I really need breathing room to add more stuff.
I tried this very sort of deck a while ago; it never really panned out. Anyhoo, you might as well find a spot for Intuition (I'd cut Shadowmage Infiltrator).
Speaking of which, are there any cards in the list that I should actually get rid of, and have been too blind to notice up to this point? I really need breathing room to add more stuff.
I can do my best.
Pretty much all of the fatty "lover of turns" are cuttable. IMO cards like Sower of Temptation, Puppeteer Clique, Rise from the Grave, and Treachery are alot better because you can make use of your opponents stronger green and white creatures at a discounted price.
Also, I've found draw+discard spells (ex: Compulsive Research, Thirst for Knowledge) are usually better than the more expensive draw in dralnu for obvious reasons.
Basically, keep in mind that blue decks (especially dralnu) can afford to reduce thier average converted mana cost alot because of all the card advantage. I suggest you do so in this list.
Every card doesn't need a huge effect when you're in blue, Brainstorm and Ponder work wonders at 1 cmc!!!
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Cockatrice Alias: Knullset
My Current EDH Decks WUBRG Lorwyn Block Horde of Notions WUBRG UG Momir Vig Glimpse Combo UG UW "Rasputin Dreamcrusher" Control UW
That seems like its only doing what his general already does. Granted you cant always count on having your general all the time still... Not doing anything his deck doesn't already have.
Pretty much all of the fatty "lover of turns" are cuttable. IMO cards like Sower of Temptation, Puppeteer Clique, Rise from the Grave, and Treachery are alot better because you can make use of your opponents stronger green and white creatures at a discounted price.
Itend to find that most of my opponents' creatures end up in their graveyard, so I'd probably be playing Animate Dead and brethren instead. However, the problem with relying on your opponents' creatures is that it means you can't kill them, which screws up threat prioritisation immensely. Plus, all the creatures there serve an additional function.
Also, I've found draw+discard spells (ex: Compulsive Research, Thirst for Knowledge) are usually better than the more expensive draw in dralnu for obvious reasons.
Basically, keep in mind that blue decks (especially dralnu) can afford to reduce thier average converted mana cost alot because of all the card advantage. I suggest you do so in this list.
Every card doesn't need a huge effect when you're in blue, Brainstorm and Ponder work wonders at 1 cmc!!!
You know, you might have a point there. I've sort of been brainwashed about multiplayer EDH, but in a deck like this which aims to combo out as fast as possible, cheap might be better. Something else to think about and test.
Not really that keen on either of them. Evacuation is an instant, yes, but it's more expensive and only actually Wraths when I'm comboing and don't need the Wrath. And Into the Roil is just a wannabe Cryptic, and really doesn't impact the game enough.
Frantic Search is a pretty neat draw effect, works well with Dralnu and pretty much reads 0: Draw 2 cards.
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UB - Tezzerator 2.0 - UB
8-3-0
(Decklist and blog updated 4/11/2011)
"Fun fact about me: I home brew my buddies meta deck. He went from having a much lower ranking then me to a significantly higher rating since I started doing this."
I've been a bit slow updating this deck (partly because it doesn't exactly mirror the Dralnu deck I use most of the time - this deck is too mean for casual play), but I need someone to disabuse me of a terrible idea that I can't help but be captivated by: Mirror of Fate. It seems very good at giving you even more out of your Warps, but it is so, so risky...I'm torn. I really think I have an unhealthy attraction to unplayable cards.
I've been a bit slow updating this deck (partly because it doesn't exactly mirror the Dralnu deck I use most of the time - this deck is too mean for casual play), but I need someone to disabuse me of a terrible idea that I can't help but be captivated by: Mirror of Fate. It seems very good at giving you even more out of your Warps, but it is so, so risky...I'm torn. I really think I have an unhealthy attraction to unplayable cards.
You better be able to win after you cast it. With all those extra turns, you are going to run out of cards very fast.
I think it is criminal that you are playing Blue in Mutliplayer and not playing Rhystic Study.
Seriously...this is a really cool deck. Have you had any updates?
I play a modified version of viperesque's list. I ran it for about 10 games today, winning either 5 or 6 of them (can't exactly remember). I played mostly against 3-color goodstuff lists, like Karrthus, Sedris, and Intet. I felt pretty confident in most of the games, although multiplayer is always an unpredictable beast. I could have easily won all 10 games if they hadn't peeled, but I could have also conversely lost all 10 if I didn't get the draws that I did.
The major changes that I made to the list were cutting down on the Relearn cards, a few Time Walks, and some of the other utility spells to put in a ton more acceleration. The deck is mana hungry and Dralnu's true strength doesn't really show until you reach a certain threshold of mana sources. Granted it might just be the meta I play in (tons of ramp), this deck can really take advantage of coming out the gates faster because all of its important plays have a very high curve. I also inserted Emrakul, the Aeons Torn as my finisher of choice. He's both on-theme and is good enough to let people know you're the real deal, especially after they see you've assembled the Beacon/Portal combo.
In a vacuum you could just warp, play lands, and relearn to do it again, but people are putting a lot of pressure on you and denying mana and card drawing constantly, so I've tried to move the deck in a more pro-active direction. A warp by itself is pretty mediocre in terms of raw value, and a Relearn-type card is even more mediocre without good targets. Unfortunately, as a reactive deck, you'll mostly only have counters and draw, both of which are also not that great to return, considering the former is usually 1-for-1s and the latter doesn't need to happen so often. You need more answers or threats!
Here are a few bullets on how I felt about playing Dralnu tonight:
-Time Walks are alright in the right situations, but are really bad until you have a lot of mana. Only when you have sufficient amounts of mana are you able to walk, play Dralnu, and walk again with extra mana to spare. Sounds simple right? Not when there's people blowing up all your mana with Terastadons! It's imperative to ramp consistently, hence I run tons of mana rocks to make sure I can keep up with the green decks or just be able to combo out earlier. I also cut Capture of Jingzhou and Walk the Aeons. Like I said, the cards just aren't good until you have tons of mana available to abuse Dralnu.
-The list as it is has a bit of difficulty handling the early game, especially if people try to throw some explosive stuff at you (LD, artifact destruction, a fast general). A lot of the fatter creatures, like Mindleech Mass, Tidespout Tyrant, Myojin of Night's reach just haven't been pulling their weight in here. They don't play the defensive role well enough, which is something the deck really needs in order to buy time in the early game. Clones are an idea.
-I've been wanting to put more ways to protect Dralnu into the deck, but I almost can't justify it. I'm currently only running Lightning Greaves and Thousand-Year Elixir, but I might be itching for one more. The deck as it is doesn't rely on Dralnu much until you win, but when you're out of gas, he's definitely a huge boon - big enough that it'd be nice to play him mid game and not be worried about losing him over and over again. It's not so much the lich effect that bothers me, it's not having haste and praying no one else topdecks that's the problem. Even Strider Harness would be good here (as loose as that sounds).
-My Intuition piles are almost never for 3 Time Walks. Judging from multiple gamestates, that was just never the optimal play. My 3 picks are almost always Knowledge Exploitation, Blatant Thievery, and Bribery (or All is Dust). They are the most powerful cards in the deck for sure, especially if Emrakul is still flying around the table. When there's more opponents, sure it's okay to go for some more mild stuff, but as a rule of thumb, going with the former two cards is never wrong for the pile. The other really insane card in this deck, although it comes online much later, is Time Stretch. I haven't lost a game where I resolved this card.
-We are a tad bit spot-removal light. I'd probably like to see two more slots dedicated to instant-speed removal, or at least removal with some sorts of utility (such as Chainer's Edict). I run a few more counterspells than viperesque, mostly because I want to be absolutely sure that I'll be able to stop cards that ruin my mana or even just steal something to use for myself (ie. Spelljack + Desertion). Running a few more counters also gives more value to Dralnu in the mid-game, since you can just run him out there and protect him with whatever is in your graveyard.
-What this deck needs is some more pro-active action. Cards like Knowledge Exploitation and Blatant Thievery really turn the tide of the game and I think it's what Dralnu needs to keep up. I've done a lot of digging, but I'm still unsure of what else we can add to the deck in order to give it more "oomph". As it stands, I still think the concept is really good, but I want to try and find more use out of Dralnu as well as control the state of the board a bit better. I've had at least 3 gamestates today where everyone has exhausted their resources and are in topdeck mode. Even though I run Dralnu out there, maybe FoF twice, I am still not hitting enough meaty threats.
-My MVPs tonight go to Time Stretch, Tezzeret the Seeker, Thada Adel, and Knowledge Exploitation! I think these four cards mentioned really encompass the strengths of this deck: walking for multiple turns to allow yourself to set up; ramping up adequately and finding your Planar Portal with those extra turns; Thada Adel is one of those "oomph" cards that I'm talking about, allowing you to pro-actively propel yourself forward; and Knowledge Exploitation has basically allowed me to turn the game around as yet ANOTHER "oomph" card.
I don't want to post a list yet because it's still very organic. I'm going to play again tomorrow night during/after FNM, so I want to see if we can get some discussion going about how we can give the deck more versatility and "oomph" so that it can handle more and more situations. I think a good place to start is looking for powerful creatures (like Thada Adel), mini engines (wizard package?), or are there any other instants/sorceries that can turn the tide like Blatant Thievery does?
I'm really tired, sorry if this post was really sucky.
Reins of Power is pretty techy in a Dralnu list. "What's that? Fireball for twenty? Well thanks!"
Plus it's just really good in general. Add some Phyrexian Tower style saccy lands and use it to kill things. Pinch a token hoard and blow somebody out of the water. It's just really, really versatile.
Turnabout works really well, too. It's ramp, Mana Short and Deluge all in one, plus it's able to untap Dralnu in a pinch as well as about a thousand other plays.
Well...currently I am still in the understanding stages of this deck and I am still trying to learn the ins and the outs of how the deck works...then I will start making changes to adapt this deck to my play style. As it is...here is the way that I have won the majority of my matches.
1. Have either Relearn or Call to Mind in hand and the other in the graveyard.
With the crazy amount of tutors in this deck...plus Flashback on a Stick...this is not hard to achieve. I find the early game to be rather slow but...7UUUUU really isn't that hard to come up with in this deck. My opponents have typically had between 5 and 6 turns before I combo out.
Am I missing any other obvious combos?
@Viper,
As far as Rhystic Study goes...I think you could easily cut a land from the deck. 40 Lands is rather high I think. Plus it solves your card draw problem. I have found this to be my first tutor target 99% of the time. Draw 4 cards a turn...sure...why not.
@MCR,
I would be interested to see your list. It sounds like you are preparing more for 1v1 though. If you are wanting to get haste for Dralnu, Lich Lord...add in Expedition Map (Which should be in here anyway) and Hall of the Bandit Lord.
As far as the Time Walks not being good until you have mana...I mainly use them as, "Draw a card and play an extra land." Until I search out the above combo that I listed.
Well...currently I am still in the understanding stages of this deck and I am still trying to learn the ins and the outs of how the deck works...then I will start making changes to adapt this deck to my play style. As it is...here is the way that I have won the majority of my matches.
1. Have either Relearn or Call to Mind in hand and the other in the graveyard.
With the crazy amount of tutors in this deck...plus Flashback on a Stick...this is not hard to achieve. I find the early game to be rather slow but...7UUUUU really isn't that hard to come up with in this deck. My opponents have typically had between 5 and 6 turns before I combo out.
Am I missing any other obvious combos?
@Viper,
As far as Rhystic Study goes...I think you could easily cut a land from the deck. 40 Lands is rather high I think. Plus it solves your card draw problem. I have found this to be my first tutor target 99% of the time. Draw 4 cards a turn...sure...why not.
@MCR,
I would be interested to see your list. It sounds like you are preparing more for 1v1 though. If you are wanting to get haste for Dralnu, Lich Lord...add in Expedition Map (Which should be in here anyway) and Hall of the Bandit Lord.
As far as the Time Walks not being good until you have mana...I mainly use them as, "Draw a card and play an extra land." Until I search out the above combo that I listed.
@Loop
I'm not quite sure I follow that one. Cast Through Time doesn't let you go infinite, as the rebound exiles the card the second time you play it. I mean, you'll take a ton of turns, don't get me wrong, but the REAL infinite combo you're looking for in this deck is Beacon of Tomorrows + Planar Portal. It takes 14 mana to assemble and will guarantee that no one else at the table ever takes another turn again. This is another reason why I personally feel there should be a handful more of acceleration cards in here.
I can combo out quickly in a vacuum no problem too, but I play in a group that has fairly strong decks with lots of answers and proactive threats to keep me down from going nuts. I suppose using warps as a way to play a land and draw a card is okay, but I still think that you should run more acceleration in order to really abuse those turns and move up 2-3 mana instead of just 1. I'll probably put Capture of Jingzhou back in (I don't actually own one, so it'll be Walk the Aeons, but optimally Capture).
@My List
It's pretty similar to viperesque's list. Minus lands, Relearns, and plus mana acceleration. I made some changes to the draw - no Recurring Insight or Moonlight Bargain, went for Rhystic Study and Opportunity instead. I'll post a revised list after I play more games tonight. I've been talking to LennonMarx about my list and he's offered a few good suggestions that I'm going to try out.
6/15/2010: If you cast a card from exile this way, it will go to your graveyard when it resolves or is countered. It won't go back to exile.
I toyed with cast through time in my Dralnu deck but found it to be too slow and an infinite amount of turns unnecessary, although i may try it again now that i am trimming out more of my high end spells
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EDH
Azusa
Norin
Saffi Peasant EDH
Psychatog In Progress
Tibor and Lumia
Oh yea you're right, derp derp I was thinking of Eye of the Storm (which I had also tried). I like Cast Through Time because if your opponents let it stick, it's going to be a huge pain in the arse eventually.
Thanks for the list. I was sold on Arcum, Oona, Erayo, Karn being the most fun decks (I'll probably find Karn still to be my favorite EDH hero of choice) but Dralnu in this shell/playstyle seems BADASS!
What do you do against burn? Just rely on counters/bounce? I'm going to build something similar, possibly put some infinite storm engine and go off with Mind's Desire, Yawgwill, Necropotence etc. Dralnu is just insane if he's safe in play!
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I like designing decks and I am primarily a control player. Using Drain to fight Workshops is like using Exclude to fight Dark Confidant.
What do you do against burn? Just rely on counters/bounce? I'm going to build something similar, possibly put some infinite storm engine and go off with Mind's Desire, Yawgwill, Necropotence etc. Dralnu is just insane if he's safe in play!
I managed to play the deck a few more times and I came across even more observations. The first is that this deck is absurdly powerful in a multi-player format, especially if there are few blue players. The main problem now, as viperesque has mentioned, is the fact that every game ends virtually the same way: me going infinite with Planar Portal / Beacon of Tomorrows. Pretty much the ONLY requirement is having the 14 mana - the rest happens by itself. Usually I'll begin the game by tutoring for lots of ramp (which is a concept that all variants of this deck should adopt btw), followed by a Time Stretch. This card is CRUCIAL, because it is the only one that allows you to set up into the Beacon/Portal combo while you only have 10 mana. Essentially you gain 4 more turns, because you'll play Dralnu the next and flash it back the turn after. This allows ample time to play mana, draw cards, and either walk some more or find your infinite pieces.
I managed to pull the combo win many, many times, even against some very potent generals. The deck doesn't really look like it's doing anything until you're ready to go off, which is the reason it's so deadly and can afford to run such little amounts of removal. It's gotten to the point where the players in my group have begun to just target my mana sources to prevent me from ever reaching my goal of 14 mana! Just take heed those of you that want to build this deck - I can now understand why viperesque prefers to neuter this deck before taking it into a more casual group.
So all this said, what changes should be made to the deck itself? Well, since my list is still undergoing several tests, I won't post it just yet. I will, however, talk about a few key points that you might want to emphasize in your own list.
Mana Acceleration
You have no idea how important this is. I run ~15 mana rocks/accelerants to make sure I can quickly push forward. I also play a significantly smaller number of lands than most people would be comfortable with in a control deck (~34). Before you call blasphemy, you're going to need to hear me out. This deck cannot function properly unless you have the mana to abuse the walks. When you walk, draw a card, and play a land, you're not getting much value of out of it. It's when you walk, draw two cards, play a land, and two mana accelerants that you're talking about major gas. This brings you significantly closer to your end goal of comboing out. So playing mana accelerants helps you out immensely, but how are you playing so many cards every turn? Here's how we accomplish this...
Types of Card Draw
I used to think that I wanted BIG draw spells that I could flashback using Dralnu. However, further playing with this deck proved the opposite. Your hand is generally filled with either expensive sorcery spells, clunky counterspells, or mana. You don't need big draw spells unless you're digging to stay alive. What you DO need is a way to abuse time walks, and the answer to that is arena and Future Sight effects. In this way, you are truly able to build your foundation at an extremely accelerated pace. But not only are you drawing more cards, you're drawing LESS lands and able to play more mana artifacts, further abusing your Future Sight cards. There were a few times that I actually Time Stretched on like turn 4 or something ridiculous like that. Therefore, instead of cards like Rhystic Study (yes it's good, but there is better for this deck), think instead about Graveborn Muse and Magus of the Future.
Useless Stuff
I've also been cutting a lot of fat creatures. I dropped Tidespout Tyrant now because he just never did enough for me. If I had Future Sight/Top going, I'd probably win anyways without his help - and I certainly never wanted to tap out for him. You might call me crazy, but I've been eying Black Myojin and Teferi now too. It might be different because I play in a metagame with significantly less blue, so their value diminishes somewhat. Black Myojin is a great way to screw other players over, but this deck doesn't really care for that. Since you can combo out at any time, you don't really care what they're capable of.
I'm going to be playing this deck again towards the end of the week. Gonna make some big changes to the list again to try and make it much more streamlined - will return with a list you guys can check out.
Also in response to crz87's question: burn is pretty irrelevant here, as fzian has commented. If you're really scared, just don't play Dralnu until you're ready to win. I also run Riptide Laboratory as a failsafe plan against mono R decks, but generally I won't run him out there unless I can walk first or am in dire need of gas.
If you don't care about the body, Cabal Conditioning may be slightly better in this deck than the Myojin of Night's Reach, especially since you're not running Crystal Shard, although neither may be what you're after.
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1 Time Warp
1 Temporal Manipulation
1 Capture of Jingzhou
1 Walk the Aeons
1 Beacon of Tomorrows
1 Time Stretch
1 Cast Through Time
1 Mirari
1 Twincast
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Relearn
1 Call to Mind
1 Planar Portal
1 Liliana Vess
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Personal Tutor
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Intuition
1 Sol Ring
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Dimir Signet
1 Coalition Relic
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Rewind
1 Damnation
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 All is Dust
1 Commandeer
1 Hinder
1 Capsize
1 Cryptic Command
1 Decree of Pain
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Myojin of Night's Reach
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Mindleech Mass
1 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
1 Visara the Dreadful
1 Avatar of Woe
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Moonlight Bargain
1 Recurring Insight
1 Honden of Seeing Winds
1 Arcanis the Omnipotent
1 Future Sight
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Acquire
1 Forcefield
1 Memory Plunder
1 Knowledge Exploitation
1 Bribery
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
1 Underground Sea
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Tolaria West
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Academy Ruins
15 Island
14 Swamp
My main concern with the deck is that I might not be running enough card drawing, but other than that, I'm quite pleased with it. Thoughts, comments, beratings?
Some suggestions:
Traumatize, Entomb
Oh, and Lighthouse Chronologist is right on theme
My Current EDH Decks
WUBRG Lorwyn Block Horde of Notions WUBRG
UG Momir Vig Glimpse Combo UG
UW "Rasputin Dreamcrusher" Control UW
Thank you!
I actually took this out ages ago, because it wasn't working as well I would have liked it to. The problem is that I don't tend to actually have Dralnu out very much, because he gets killed very quickly. Usually I cast him only if I have Greaves, or if I'm in the middle of a turn-taking spree and need him to add more. However, since I've souped the deck up considerably since that point, I might try it again.
You know, I never even noticed that this could fetch noncreatures. Definitely worth testing.
I know, and I really want to fit it in. But the list is already really, really tight. I've had to throw out quite a few cards I really wanted to keep already, and since this guy is useless when I'm actually going off, he was one of them.
Speaking of which, are there any cards in the list that I should actually get rid of, and have been too blind to notice up to this point? I really need breathing room to add more stuff.
Yes, I might. I love Shadowmage, but you're right that he is a reasonable candidate for cutting.
I can do my best.
Pretty much all of the fatty "lover of turns" are cuttable. IMO cards like Sower of Temptation, Puppeteer Clique, Rise from the Grave, and Treachery are alot better because you can make use of your opponents stronger green and white creatures at a discounted price.
Also, I've found draw+discard spells (ex: Compulsive Research, Thirst for Knowledge) are usually better than the more expensive draw in dralnu for obvious reasons.
Basically, keep in mind that blue decks (especially dralnu) can afford to reduce thier average converted mana cost alot because of all the card advantage. I suggest you do so in this list.
Every card doesn't need a huge effect when you're in blue, Brainstorm and Ponder work wonders at 1 cmc!!!
My Current EDH Decks
WUBRG Lorwyn Block Horde of Notions WUBRG
UG Momir Vig Glimpse Combo UG
UW "Rasputin Dreamcrusher" Control UW
That seems like its only doing what his general already does. Granted you cant always count on having your general all the time still... Not doing anything his deck doesn't already have.
Into the Roil and or Evacuation might be fun to run.
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[Modern] Allies
You know, you might have a point there. I've sort of been brainwashed about multiplayer EDH, but in a deck like this which aims to combo out as fast as possible, cheap might be better. Something else to think about and test.
Also, it gets shut down very quickly. There's always stuff flying into my yard, and one random land or artifact will make it useless for a while.
Not really that keen on either of them. Evacuation is an instant, yes, but it's more expensive and only actually Wraths when I'm comboing and don't need the Wrath. And Into the Roil is just a wannabe Cryptic, and really doesn't impact the game enough.
Anyway, quick update:
-Dread
-Island
+Call to Mind
+Drowned Catacomb
Now to figure out the draw package.
UB - Tezzerator 2.0 - UB
8-3-0
(Decklist and blog updated 4/11/2011)
"Fun fact about me: I home brew my buddies meta deck. He went from having a much lower ranking then me to a significantly higher rating since I started doing this."
You better be able to win after you cast it. With all those extra turns, you are going to run out of cards very fast.
Seriously...this is a really cool deck. Have you had any updates?
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
I play a modified version of viperesque's list. I ran it for about 10 games today, winning either 5 or 6 of them (can't exactly remember). I played mostly against 3-color goodstuff lists, like Karrthus, Sedris, and Intet. I felt pretty confident in most of the games, although multiplayer is always an unpredictable beast. I could have easily won all 10 games if they hadn't peeled, but I could have also conversely lost all 10 if I didn't get the draws that I did.
The major changes that I made to the list were cutting down on the Relearn cards, a few Time Walks, and some of the other utility spells to put in a ton more acceleration. The deck is mana hungry and Dralnu's true strength doesn't really show until you reach a certain threshold of mana sources. Granted it might just be the meta I play in (tons of ramp), this deck can really take advantage of coming out the gates faster because all of its important plays have a very high curve. I also inserted Emrakul, the Aeons Torn as my finisher of choice. He's both on-theme and is good enough to let people know you're the real deal, especially after they see you've assembled the Beacon/Portal combo.
In a vacuum you could just warp, play lands, and relearn to do it again, but people are putting a lot of pressure on you and denying mana and card drawing constantly, so I've tried to move the deck in a more pro-active direction. A warp by itself is pretty mediocre in terms of raw value, and a Relearn-type card is even more mediocre without good targets. Unfortunately, as a reactive deck, you'll mostly only have counters and draw, both of which are also not that great to return, considering the former is usually 1-for-1s and the latter doesn't need to happen so often. You need more answers or threats!
Here are a few bullets on how I felt about playing Dralnu tonight:
-Time Walks are alright in the right situations, but are really bad until you have a lot of mana. Only when you have sufficient amounts of mana are you able to walk, play Dralnu, and walk again with extra mana to spare. Sounds simple right? Not when there's people blowing up all your mana with Terastadons! It's imperative to ramp consistently, hence I run tons of mana rocks to make sure I can keep up with the green decks or just be able to combo out earlier. I also cut Capture of Jingzhou and Walk the Aeons. Like I said, the cards just aren't good until you have tons of mana available to abuse Dralnu.
-The list as it is has a bit of difficulty handling the early game, especially if people try to throw some explosive stuff at you (LD, artifact destruction, a fast general). A lot of the fatter creatures, like Mindleech Mass, Tidespout Tyrant, Myojin of Night's reach just haven't been pulling their weight in here. They don't play the defensive role well enough, which is something the deck really needs in order to buy time in the early game. Clones are an idea.
-I've been wanting to put more ways to protect Dralnu into the deck, but I almost can't justify it. I'm currently only running Lightning Greaves and Thousand-Year Elixir, but I might be itching for one more. The deck as it is doesn't rely on Dralnu much until you win, but when you're out of gas, he's definitely a huge boon - big enough that it'd be nice to play him mid game and not be worried about losing him over and over again. It's not so much the lich effect that bothers me, it's not having haste and praying no one else topdecks that's the problem. Even Strider Harness would be good here (as loose as that sounds).
-My Intuition piles are almost never for 3 Time Walks. Judging from multiple gamestates, that was just never the optimal play. My 3 picks are almost always Knowledge Exploitation, Blatant Thievery, and Bribery (or All is Dust). They are the most powerful cards in the deck for sure, especially if Emrakul is still flying around the table. When there's more opponents, sure it's okay to go for some more mild stuff, but as a rule of thumb, going with the former two cards is never wrong for the pile. The other really insane card in this deck, although it comes online much later, is Time Stretch. I haven't lost a game where I resolved this card.
-We are a tad bit spot-removal light. I'd probably like to see two more slots dedicated to instant-speed removal, or at least removal with some sorts of utility (such as Chainer's Edict). I run a few more counterspells than viperesque, mostly because I want to be absolutely sure that I'll be able to stop cards that ruin my mana or even just steal something to use for myself (ie. Spelljack + Desertion). Running a few more counters also gives more value to Dralnu in the mid-game, since you can just run him out there and protect him with whatever is in your graveyard.
-What this deck needs is some more pro-active action. Cards like Knowledge Exploitation and Blatant Thievery really turn the tide of the game and I think it's what Dralnu needs to keep up. I've done a lot of digging, but I'm still unsure of what else we can add to the deck in order to give it more "oomph". As it stands, I still think the concept is really good, but I want to try and find more use out of Dralnu as well as control the state of the board a bit better. I've had at least 3 gamestates today where everyone has exhausted their resources and are in topdeck mode. Even though I run Dralnu out there, maybe FoF twice, I am still not hitting enough meaty threats.
-My MVPs tonight go to Time Stretch, Tezzeret the Seeker, Thada Adel, and Knowledge Exploitation! I think these four cards mentioned really encompass the strengths of this deck: walking for multiple turns to allow yourself to set up; ramping up adequately and finding your Planar Portal with those extra turns; Thada Adel is one of those "oomph" cards that I'm talking about, allowing you to pro-actively propel yourself forward; and Knowledge Exploitation has basically allowed me to turn the game around as yet ANOTHER "oomph" card.
I don't want to post a list yet because it's still very organic. I'm going to play again tomorrow night during/after FNM, so I want to see if we can get some discussion going about how we can give the deck more versatility and "oomph" so that it can handle more and more situations. I think a good place to start is looking for powerful creatures (like Thada Adel), mini engines (wizard package?), or are there any other instants/sorceries that can turn the tide like Blatant Thievery does?
I'm really tired, sorry if this post was really sucky.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Plus it's just really good in general. Add some Phyrexian Tower style saccy lands and use it to kill things. Pinch a token hoard and blow somebody out of the water. It's just really, really versatile.
Turnabout works really well, too. It's ramp, Mana Short and Deluge all in one, plus it's able to untap Dralnu in a pinch as well as about a thousand other plays.
Also, not playing Rhystic Study is criminal.
1. Have either Relearn or Call to Mind in hand and the other in the graveyard.
2. Play Cast Through Time + Time Warp <---Or any other Time Walk.
3. Loop for infinite.
With the crazy amount of tutors in this deck...plus Flashback on a Stick...this is not hard to achieve. I find the early game to be rather slow but...7UUUUU really isn't that hard to come up with in this deck. My opponents have typically had between 5 and 6 turns before I combo out.
Am I missing any other obvious combos?
@Viper,
As far as Rhystic Study goes...I think you could easily cut a land from the deck. 40 Lands is rather high I think. Plus it solves your card draw problem. I have found this to be my first tutor target 99% of the time. Draw 4 cards a turn...sure...why not.
@MCR,
I would be interested to see your list. It sounds like you are preparing more for 1v1 though. If you are wanting to get haste for Dralnu, Lich Lord...add in Expedition Map (Which should be in here anyway) and Hall of the Bandit Lord.
As far as the Time Walks not being good until you have mana...I mainly use them as, "Draw a card and play an extra land." Until I search out the above combo that I listed.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
@Loop
I'm not quite sure I follow that one. Cast Through Time doesn't let you go infinite, as the rebound exiles the card the second time you play it. I mean, you'll take a ton of turns, don't get me wrong, but the REAL infinite combo you're looking for in this deck is Beacon of Tomorrows + Planar Portal. It takes 14 mana to assemble and will guarantee that no one else at the table ever takes another turn again. This is another reason why I personally feel there should be a handful more of acceleration cards in here.
I can combo out quickly in a vacuum no problem too, but I play in a group that has fairly strong decks with lots of answers and proactive threats to keep me down from going nuts. I suppose using warps as a way to play a land and draw a card is okay, but I still think that you should run more acceleration in order to really abuse those turns and move up 2-3 mana instead of just 1. I'll probably put Capture of Jingzhou back in (I don't actually own one, so it'll be Walk the Aeons, but optimally Capture).
@My List
It's pretty similar to viperesque's list. Minus lands, Relearns, and plus mana acceleration. I made some changes to the draw - no Recurring Insight or Moonlight Bargain, went for Rhystic Study and Opportunity instead. I'll post a revised list after I play more games tonight. I've been talking to LennonMarx about my list and he's offered a few good suggestions that I'm going to try out.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
I toyed with cast through time in my Dralnu deck but found it to be too slow and an infinite amount of turns unnecessary, although i may try it again now that i am trimming out more of my high end spells
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Tibor and Lumia
Good call though.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
What do you do against burn? Just rely on counters/bounce? I'm going to build something similar, possibly put some infinite storm engine and go off with Mind's Desire, Yawgwill, Necropotence etc. Dralnu is just insane if he's safe in play!
Using Drain to fight Workshops is like using Exclude to fight Dark Confidant.
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[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
Not usually and probably not directly, but there is Wildfire, Masticore, Sword of Fire and Ice, et. al.
I managed to play the deck a few more times and I came across even more observations. The first is that this deck is absurdly powerful in a multi-player format, especially if there are few blue players. The main problem now, as viperesque has mentioned, is the fact that every game ends virtually the same way: me going infinite with Planar Portal / Beacon of Tomorrows. Pretty much the ONLY requirement is having the 14 mana - the rest happens by itself. Usually I'll begin the game by tutoring for lots of ramp (which is a concept that all variants of this deck should adopt btw), followed by a Time Stretch. This card is CRUCIAL, because it is the only one that allows you to set up into the Beacon/Portal combo while you only have 10 mana. Essentially you gain 4 more turns, because you'll play Dralnu the next and flash it back the turn after. This allows ample time to play mana, draw cards, and either walk some more or find your infinite pieces.
I managed to pull the combo win many, many times, even against some very potent generals. The deck doesn't really look like it's doing anything until you're ready to go off, which is the reason it's so deadly and can afford to run such little amounts of removal. It's gotten to the point where the players in my group have begun to just target my mana sources to prevent me from ever reaching my goal of 14 mana! Just take heed those of you that want to build this deck - I can now understand why viperesque prefers to neuter this deck before taking it into a more casual group.
So all this said, what changes should be made to the deck itself? Well, since my list is still undergoing several tests, I won't post it just yet. I will, however, talk about a few key points that you might want to emphasize in your own list.
Mana Acceleration
You have no idea how important this is. I run ~15 mana rocks/accelerants to make sure I can quickly push forward. I also play a significantly smaller number of lands than most people would be comfortable with in a control deck (~34). Before you call blasphemy, you're going to need to hear me out. This deck cannot function properly unless you have the mana to abuse the walks. When you walk, draw a card, and play a land, you're not getting much value of out of it. It's when you walk, draw two cards, play a land, and two mana accelerants that you're talking about major gas. This brings you significantly closer to your end goal of comboing out. So playing mana accelerants helps you out immensely, but how are you playing so many cards every turn? Here's how we accomplish this...
Types of Card Draw
I used to think that I wanted BIG draw spells that I could flashback using Dralnu. However, further playing with this deck proved the opposite. Your hand is generally filled with either expensive sorcery spells, clunky counterspells, or mana. You don't need big draw spells unless you're digging to stay alive. What you DO need is a way to abuse time walks, and the answer to that is arena and Future Sight effects. In this way, you are truly able to build your foundation at an extremely accelerated pace. But not only are you drawing more cards, you're drawing LESS lands and able to play more mana artifacts, further abusing your Future Sight cards. There were a few times that I actually Time Stretched on like turn 4 or something ridiculous like that. Therefore, instead of cards like Rhystic Study (yes it's good, but there is better for this deck), think instead about Graveborn Muse and Magus of the Future.
Useless Stuff
I've also been cutting a lot of fat creatures. I dropped Tidespout Tyrant now because he just never did enough for me. If I had Future Sight/Top going, I'd probably win anyways without his help - and I certainly never wanted to tap out for him. You might call me crazy, but I've been eying Black Myojin and Teferi now too. It might be different because I play in a metagame with significantly less blue, so their value diminishes somewhat. Black Myojin is a great way to screw other players over, but this deck doesn't really care for that. Since you can combo out at any time, you don't really care what they're capable of.
I'm going to be playing this deck again towards the end of the week. Gonna make some big changes to the list again to try and make it much more streamlined - will return with a list you guys can check out.
Also in response to crz87's question: burn is pretty irrelevant here, as fzian has commented. If you're really scared, just don't play Dralnu until you're ready to win. I also run Riptide Laboratory as a failsafe plan against mono R decks, but generally I won't run him out there unless I can walk first or am in dire need of gas.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain