I guess I will start this off, but not with a deck list.
I was looking through some RoE cards and I have been staring at Inquisition of Kozilek. I was not sure if it was really being tested or ran MB, but it seems like a really cheap and efficient way to keep our early game under our control.
General thoughts on this card?
Pros and Cons anyone?
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"Fun fact about me: I home brew my buddies meta deck. He went from having a much lower ranking then me to a significantly higher rating since I started doing this."
I feel a small mix between duress and inquisition. Duress hits the removal, walkers and inquisition hits the removal and a probably over half of the creatures. I run 2 inquisitions and a duress, with a second duress in the side for control. In the bit of testing I've done, I love the mix.
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Duress and Inquisition aren't the same card and don't do the same things - Duress plays out of the sideboard to kill combos and weaken control; Inquisition is there primarily to pull early plays out of the opponent's hand and kill tempo. Junk wants Inquisition vs fast decks and Duress vs slow ones, though I don't know that I'd count on hitting black mana early enough and often enough to make Inquisition reliable (Duress is still a reliable option because you can often cast it turn 3/4/5 and hit what you need to hit).
I cannot stand having to hit a black source on the first fetch to cast duress.
I would definately take duress over inquisition, since the last think I'm affraid off is a creature.
I'd rather be able to hit jace, elspeth,gideon, polymorph, day, removal, martial coup and mind sludge than those cards that hardly matter.
name at least 3 cards that you CAN take with inquisition that matter, that you can't take with duress?
Take in mind you play about 7-10 spot removal for creatures.
casting duress on the first turn is about as important as it is for jund to cast blightning on the third: not very.
well it's going to be all creatures, since duress takes any spell.
by your criterion the ones that matter are going to be the ones that are hard to kill in this deck: so white knight, black knight, zombie outlander, calcite snapper, valeron outlander, and deft dualist, ball lightning.
but basically the best creatures in standard with a small handful of exceptions. listing the exceptions is easier than listing the non exceptions: baneslayer, motwh, emeria angel, jwar jwar, malakir bloodwitch, vampire nocturnus, eldrazi, iona
Duress hits: Open the Vaults, Day of Judgment, Planeswalkers, Polymorph
Inquisition of Kozilek hits: Knight of the Reliquary, Ball Lightning, Goblin Guide, Knight of the White Orchid, Stoneforge Mystic, Sprouting Thrinax, Student of Warfare
You want Duress vs slower decks and combo decks. You want Inquisition versus much faster decks/aggro decks. Duress fits against combo because a turn 3-4 Duress is still extremely valuable; Inquisition probably has no place in Junk because we won't be casting it turn 1 or 2, when it has the most value.
Kozilek hits 30 pages of cards and duress hits 23.
I think Kozilek can be played main deck since it'll pretty much grasp any removal and/or any starter creatures of other decks.
Duress can be sided in against planeswalker control I guess but pithing needle might be better for that perhaps.
Right now I'm testing 4 kozileks and 4 tidehollow scullers main as well as 2 dauntless escorts.
I actually like dropping a hierarch and a kozilek during first 2 turns, it really creates a good game plan for the rest of the game. The knight seems to stay alive this way and if that happens we have better chances of winning.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity and boycotting overpriced singles. Sig this to join the cause for a more affordable Magic the Gathering.
I think kozi is more mainable than duress. Duress is more of a sideboard card against control. I plan to test a more control oriented WBG rock build soon running 4 of them. That experiment will have to wait until after the 5k this saturday in philly though.
We don't want Inquisition against control (we want Duress here), and we'd rather just side in more spot removal / sweepers against aggro, making Inquisition pretty inferior in my eyes.
It doesn't take any relevent Walkers, which is huge.
And what, pray tell, will you fine people take out for Duress/Inquisition? Either way and you are moving the deck from a black-lite to a more black-heavy version while diluting the fantastic creature base it already has. At that point you may as well move to more of a Rock or Creamy Rock deck (not that there is anything wrong with that, and is something I consider).
Either go full Rock or leave the deck as Junk. Neither Inquisition nor Duress are needed in Junk.
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Getting into Modern if you have any commons/uncommons you want to unload for cheap (everything before Zendikar needed). My trade list.
this to be the most retardic reasoning I've seen for a long time.
How many of the kozilek cards are even being played that matter?
things like aura gnarlid, bloodrite invoker, affa guard hound.
Yes, those are tremendously good targets.
The only targets that I would like to hit with inquisition that CANNOT be target with duress are.
- stoneforge mystic (you can still take down the equipment being fetched if it's not being played, end game this is irrelevant)
- knight of the reliquary. ( It's still only a creatures)
- Ball lightning. ( A good target, but I won't try if I take out a blightning and then pte the ball)
Things like the outlanders don't scare you since you play a variety of colors in both creatures and removal. Creatures with protection don't matter that much.
Except for malakir, since 1: she's big, 2, she flies, 3 she has protection from your fliers. ( the only thing that can stop her is a pulse or a motwh and I haven't see that one last a full 2 turns against jund.)
@ division: even those you mention to be hard, are actually "harder" since they should pose no problem at all.
2 damage vs a fat one is only "2"damage
None of them is stopping you from winning yet.
Black knight: GSS/Motw/pulse
white knight: anything except pulse
shroud: anything bigger. ( that should be no problem right?)
Ball lightning: this card hurts, but that's about keep. He could also have hit you with a blightning/hell's thunder. ( against this deck it's also good to hit a burnspell or slave of bolas)
So, unless your meta consists out of a terrible lot of naya allies, I wouldn't play inquisition.
For what it's worth aura gnarlid sees play in WG enchantress. It's a pretty good card, at least in that deck
So here is a matchup I will be facing for the first time this friday.
Bant.
How do you guys play against it?
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"Fun fact about me: I home brew my buddies meta deck. He went from having a much lower ranking then me to a significantly higher rating since I started doing this."
I've played it a few times and never had a problem with it. They run less removal than we do and I think that our creatures are at least on par, if not better, than theirs. Keep Rafiq off the board and I say you should have little trouble with it.
I haven't even seen a version with Sovereigns of Lost Alara so if that's what you see then keep that off the board as well. Removal is necessary against this deck.
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Getting into Modern if you have any commons/uncommons you want to unload for cheap (everything before Zendikar needed). My trade list.
Is there a build standard you guys have been using? Like WW uses Wes's build.
My junk I build off a list that looked pretty shaky and I adjusted it for me meta and I would like to re-evaluate it a bit
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"Fun fact about me: I home brew my buddies meta deck. He went from having a much lower ranking then me to a significantly higher rating since I started doing this."
At this point I dont think there is a standard build like there is for say jund. The only cards that everyone runs 4 of is knight of the reliquary and fetch lands.
His deck is the hardest for this style of deck IMO. It's br, with blightning. Like jund but with more creature removal. He played chandra, ob, percy, bolt, burst, nyxathid, banefire, terminate, tuktuk. I lost against him, but the games were close loss 0-2
Round 2 bye
Round 3 esper. Was so easy. Pridemages owned him, master of the wild hunt owned him, gideon owned him. Win 2-0
Round 4 boss naya with vengevine. My draws were better than his. Cobra and heirarch pulled me out of a mull down to 5. Vapors hurt him quite a bit, as did quasali pridemage. He was running next to no removal. Win 2-0
3-1 6th place out of about 20.
I am playing this in philly tomorrow, probably minus the vess for another mystic main.
Game 1: He has a fast opening with a Noble Hierarch into a War Monk into a Rafiq. I chump his double striking Monk with a Stoneforge Mystic until I draw into a removal and then a Baneslayer. I beat in with the Slayer, then he drops his own. I path it, he negates, so I path it again. Thank god I drew into so much removal, otherwise he'd have overrun me real fast. He ends up with a double Finest Hour on the board with a KotR and a War Monk. I topdeck a Pulse and nuke the Finest Hours. My KOTR eventually wins me the game, as it ends up being a 17/17 with lifelink from the Behemoth Sledge I fetched with Stoneforge Mystic.
Game 2: He has to mull to 6, my opening hand is Cobra, Path, Pulse, Doomblade, Elspeth and two fetch lands. Needless to say I curve out perfectly and pumped Cobras win me the game. This guy was a good pilot, he just got bad draws this game. I don't think he was running Conscription Mythic since I never saw Sovereigns either game.
Sidenote: During the match he says to his friend something to the extent of "I never expected to see this deck today". I think Junk now has rogue deck status in this meta.
1-0
Round 2 vs Polymorph:
Game 1: I have a good board and his deck is obvious when he drops an early Khalni Garden. I path his early guys, but he eventually resolves Polymorph and hits Emrakul. I have out 4 lands and Gideon, Emeria Angel, Noble Hierarch, and KOTR. Had I had one more land I could have outraced him by dropping Baneslayer then beating in with Emeria Angel / tokens and Slayer for the next two turns while birds chumped Emrakul. Sadly I don't hit the fifth land, and can't make tokens or drop the BSA, so I can't outrace him.
Game 2: He keeps a hand of Explore, See Beyond and lands (he tells me after). He eventually draws a Polymorph, but has no token to morph since I continually use my Pulses / Doom Blades / Paths on them. I know this because I Duressed the Polymorph away on turn 6 then proceeded to beat in for the win with Emeria Angel, Cobra and Mystic.
Game 3: I draw into 7 of my 9 removal spells, and he can't go off the whole time. He does end the game with 13 lands out, making him almost able to hardcast his Emrakul wincon.
2-0
Round 3 vs Aggro Vampires:
Game 1: I mull to 5 on the play and keep a hand of 2 Paths and 3 fetches. He drops a turn 1 Pulse Tracker, turn 2 Guul Draz Vampire and turn 3 Pulse Tracker. I get aggroed out before I can stabilize.
Game 2: I curve out perfectly, and his only removal seems to be Smother, so he can't fight past my wall of Emeria Angel and Elspeth tokens.
Game 3: I mull twice again, and almost stabilized here as well, since I have out a BSA and Elspeth. Instead of making an Elspeth token I jump the Baneslayer to gain 8 life and bring him fairly low. He has no cards in hand but he topdecks....Gatekeeper of Malakir. Damn. I proceed to sac my Slayer and get beat in by weenie vamps. I almost stabilize again with a Mystic and a KOTR, but he draws into a Nocturnus and flies over them with his army of bad cards.
2-1
Round 4 vs Jund:
Game 1: He mulls to 6 on the play and gets stuck on 3 lands. I go Hierarch, Cobra, KotR, Emeria Angel, GG.
Game 2: He's a good player but he made the key mistake of boarding out his creatures for removal, which is a big no-no against Junk, since I board in 7 more creatures here (3 Firewalkers, 2 Stags and 2 Slimes). We have a locked board when he drops a Bloodwitch and I drop a Slayer. I draw into a Pulse for the Witch and he draws into a Siege Gang for the Slayer. Thankfully I have a Firewalker out gaining me life, which was key here. Eventually my board grows and grows, and by the end of the match I have out almost every type of creature in my deck. He draws no business, and is forced to throw Blightnings at me even when I have no hand. It was a close game at first, but he stopped drawing business and I didn't. He was a good pilot, to be sure.
3-1
Round 5 vs Polymorph
Game 1: I get stuck without white mana, despite having 14 lands that get me white in my deck. He polymorphs and I scoop while staring at my Path in hand.
Game 2: I mull once, and keep a land of a Path, a Hierarch, a Slayer and a Borderland Ranger and two lands. However the lands don't add green, and I never see a third land the entire game. I draw into another Path and a Doom Blade, but it's no help. One swamp and one plains can only get you so far with a deck that needs green to accelerate. Like game 1, I was surprised my deck didn't give me one of my 14 green sources. Anyway, eventually he goes off and I concede.
3-2 (drop).
There were only 90 players at the event or so, so I could have kept going and hoped for a 5-2 record, however I was tired by this point from not sleeping in almost 24 hours and I had a friend who'd dropped earlier and was waiting around, so I figured leaving at 3-2 was fine. My losses involved lot of mulling and mana screws so I didn't feel like I was outplayed by the decks I lost to or anything like that (seriously though, aggro vamps? Who knew? :P)
Plus it was a nice way to check out the new meta post-ROE.
There was roughly:
30% Jund
30% U/W and Walker control builds
15% Polymorph
15% Mythic Bant
10% Everything else (Junk, Time Sieve, Eldrazi Green, RDW)
Yes I'm running 61 cards in the MD. It seemed to work out fine. I went from 23 to 24 lands and the games I didn't get mana hosed went really smoothly.
I'm glad I took out the Martial Coups for the Mystic package, as the Sledge was vital for winning me some matchups. Plus the Mystic is another body to chump / beat in with.
I boarded out Gideon every time, no exception. I don't know if I like him in this deck. I'll continue to test more.
How do you remember the details of the matches so well? Is one permitted to take notes during matches?
I will just note what I played with some general commentaries about the decks I saw and what I felt the problems with me deck were that led to me losing to them were. I can't give turn by turn summaries or even match by match in any good detail.
Philly Open 5-8-10
Round 1RWU planeswalker control:
I wished I had paid better attention to l3ds discussion of this deck earlier, because I didn't expect to get hammered so hard by it. One match I had solid board control but his 6 point martial coup was unrecoverable from. I had Lilly on the board and tutored for a pulse which would have been superb but he dropped Jace, Mindsulptor and fatesealed me which pretty much sealed the game for him. At least he ceded that his deck was pure netdeck. Didn't feel as bad losing with my own build to a netdeck :cool2:. I felt pretty brutalized by this deck overall. My sideboard was woefully inadequate to cope with this deck. loss 0-2
Round 2 Jund:
He was using no RoE cards whatsoever. He blightninged me turn 3 and 4 which was pretty bad. The second game I boarded in 3 grim disco, 3 stags, and 3 firewalkers. The discos I am very pleased with. They allowed for blightning recoveries and to pad myself against his removal. The second game was close but he ended up owning the board with 2 siege gangs and a bloodwitch. Gideon was really good at staving off my doom and allowing me to recover to play for the long game in the second match. I'd force him to attack gideon and often he didn't have enough on the board to deal 8 to him. Loss 0-2
round 3 Boss Naya:
I dont remember this match very well at all, other than that gideon was useful in assassinating his tapped knights. Loss 1-2. The final game I lost was utterly retarded. I had no green sources and a handful of 2 channelers, 1 knight, and 1 pulse, which could have allowed me to stay in the game or perhaps win.
Round 4 Esper Aggro: (he had it written on his deck box :D)
I don't remember this match very well either probably because I recieved a warning and overlooked some rules which I shouldn't have overlooked which embarassed me. His deck was master of etherium, lodestone golum, ethersworn cannonist, etherswarn shieldmage, o-ring, borderposts, doomblade, and vedalken outlander (much better build than the one I saw last fnm running ajudicator and no borderposts to pump master). Thats really all I recall. Ethersworn cannonist and golums were pains in the arse. Consuming vapors were good in this match. Win 2-1.
Round 5 Jund
I don't remember this match too well either, cept I've played the dude before locally. I mulled down to 6 one game and 5 the other which doesn't help against a deck running blightning. I saw none of the 8 cards I boarded in against him either. Once again malakir bloodwitch was a pain. Loss 0-2
Dropped after this. I was happy with my draft picks after this though. Got a realms uncharted, bear umbra, consuming vapors, and hellcarver demon which I think combined payed for the draft
I think my deck had inconsistencies from running too many 3 ofs and possibly from going up to 62 cards. The masters didn't seem to do anything for me when I got them. I have reservations about the mystic in general. I nearly always boarded sledge out because I felt that it was too slow against most of the decks. I might just run 2 or 3 collars. Even though the double black seems prohibitive I still stand by vess. The games where I played out were often games where I was tutoring for key cards at key moments. Unlike Ambassaror, I found all 3 of gideons abilities to be very useful. Mul daya channelers is still indeterminate. In playtest she was really good, and she was decent sometimes today, and not so much other times.
Consuming vapors is very good, but it is not so good against jund. The double steppe was extremely useful. More than once I activated a wildwood, and played a steppe giving him pro whatever flier they had, before sending him in the air with elspeth. I endorse running 2 steppe. With all this said, my play is rusty, and I mad poor decision. Post sideboard after seeing they had o-rings I often forgot to board in pridemage. I play too aggressively with the knights when there are times I should hold back to force them to waste their removal by fetching for steppes. Manlands were problematic for me which makes me think I could run 4 path to exile or even a tec edge.
I find the firewalker to be lackluster as is the stag at this current point in the meta. Firewalker is win vs RDW but against other decks running red it's meh. Against Jund it doesn't seem to do a whole lot. They can block with leech, beast, and pulse or otherwise play around it. The same goes for stag. It doesn't do anything against the decks that are being played when you need it to. Pro blue, ok they can't jace it, but they still have numerous other answers. It's ok against jund but it can be played around with their aggressive card advantage engine. It's ok against bant but only because of rhox war monk. These cards are nice in some situations but what we need are cards which are general and counteract the core engines of decks rather than situational nuisances. I feel that grim discovery is one such card: not only is it good against blightning, but it's good against jund in general because it allows you to compete with their card engine, and with their excellent removal. It's good against any deck running good spot removal or land hate, and it allows you to return fetches, and edges if you use them. Quasali pridemage is another such card. Enchantments are pervasive as are artifacts and many decks are reliant on them to function properly. I believe acidic slime is also such a card which is general and strikes at the heart of decks rather than at contingencies. Everything said about QPM applies to slime, and it also strikes their duals and man lands. I think wall of Luminarch ascension however is not such a card imo. In theory it's nice but in practice it just never seems to pan out. Especially with oblivion ring everywhere and control decks that playing more aggressively such as tapout and RWU, and not only that, its not even good against the bad control decks like jacerator. I can no longer settle for narrow situational cards in my sideboard like firewalker, stag, and ascension. Another problem is often deciding what to sideboard out. Also anyone who has been endorsing duress over cosi's inquisition, I am going to have to agree after playing against planeswalker control...
First off, noble hierarchs... just why? Apparently it's some sort of debate. You are running 3 colors, blue is not one of them, black is. I would much rather hit black every time than be stuck with a pulse in my hand and a noble hieararch on the field. Thanks blue mana for being worthless to me, but wait, I can hit you for 1 more damage a turn! And that doesn't even cover the fact that birds is a great chump blocker in the air from turn 1 to turn 100. Consistency wins games, noble hieararchs are cute, but worthless to Junk.
Moving right along. Consuming vapors is great. It absolutely murders tempo. Even if they only have one creature out, if you consuming vapors, you can be sure that they aren't going to play another creature the next turn. Or that maybe they'll play two, which you're fine with also.
Realms Uncharted is just silly in this deck. I always search for Terramorphic, March Flats, Verdant Cats, and a GW land. If they are smart, they'll give me the GW and the Terramorphic. Either way, you're dumping land into your graveyard for the knights, thinning your deck, getting extra fuel for cobras/emerias, and putting lands into your hand that can easily be tossed to blightning for more win. That being said, I run two. Three is maybe doable, but four is way too much.
I don't really find that Basilisk Collar is needed. My creatures are big and I pack lot's of removal. Behemoth Sledge is great for keeping up with aggro decks. In my opinion, 2 is the perfect number of sledges, so 1 sledge and 1 mystic. That way, if I draw them both, at least I have another body.
Sideboarding...
Jund:
-2 Elspeth
-3 Paths
+2 Vines of the Vastwood
+3 Celestial Purge
I usually don't have trouble with Jund preboard, and afterwards, it's even better. Why do I take out Elspeths and put in Vines? Because likely they've already seen Elspeth (which is a medium threat for Jund) and there's a very small chance they'd be expecting Vines. Don't underestimate Vines. Sometimes, for very heavy removal builds, I'll add in more Vines.
Planeswalker Control (and probably any heavy control type deck):
-1 Behemoth Sledge
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-3 Paths
+2 World Queller
+3 Identity Crisis
Against control, sledges are the first thing to go, and creature removal isn't far behind. Planeswalker Control is very unhappy about World Queller, it is a must answer for them. I usually bait them out with Queller and try playing the board really light until I'm sure that Crisis will land. Since I run birds, the 2 black isn't a problem. Once Identity Crisis hits, it is pretty much game over.
Sledges are useless as this is pretty much all or nothing. Vines for Pulses because they cost only 1g and they are instant. Polymorph? Oh ok, how about I Vines your token, thanks for playing. Tajuru Preservers are something I've been playing around with, so I don't have much on them yet, but they seem like they might be able to stall as long as you have Emerias or Elspeth out. Regardless, your top priority is stopping them casting Polymorph.
Naya:
I haven't faced a lot of Naya, but honestly, preboard Junk is pretty much designed to beat aggro decks like Naya. Just stall them with removal (Consuming Vapors is great here) until they run out of gas and you can stabilize. Just watch out for Naya Charm alpha strikes.
Bant:
-2 Elspeth
-1 other random card
+3 Vines
Again, they are probably running Elspeth or expecting her. They won't be expecting Vines. You run more removal and better removal, add in some Vines and your fatties have a lot longer shelf life than theirs. Just keep Rafiq off the field and you should be fine.
Vampires:
-3 Paths
+3 Purges
I've never had trouble with vampires. Save the Paths/Purges for Nocturnus and accept the hits from the weenies. You'll gain the life back, see Baneslayer, Sledge, and Consuming Vapors. They'll have to over extend to get around your superior creatures leaving them vulnerable to Pulse. Bloodwitch isn't fun, but with Vapors and Pulses main deck, you should be ok. Use Elspeth and Emerias to keep Gatekeeper useless.
If it's more of a MBC build, then you'll probably want to fit in some Identity Crisis, but I still wouldn't be overly worried. Against mono black, the only real threat is hand hate and the only sweeper you have to worry about is Consume the Meek, so you can pretty much dump your hand and be merrily on your way.
I think that's about everything, but really, I've had tons of fun piloting this deck (which my friends and I call "The Money"). It's more control oriented than the Junk builds with Leeches, but I think that in this environment it's definitely the way to go.
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I was looking through some RoE cards and I have been staring at Inquisition of Kozilek. I was not sure if it was really being tested or ran MB, but it seems like a really cheap and efficient way to keep our early game under our control.
General thoughts on this card?
Pros and Cons anyone?
UB - Tezzerator 2.0 - UB
8-3-0
(Decklist and blog updated 4/11/2011)
"Fun fact about me: I home brew my buddies meta deck. He went from having a much lower ranking then me to a significantly higher rating since I started doing this."
Plus, if if you feel like watching a few games: My Stream
I'm normally on most nights between 6pm-whenever.
casting duress on the first turn is about as important as it is for jund to cast blightning on the third: not very.
well it's going to be all creatures, since duress takes any spell.
by your criterion the ones that matter are going to be the ones that are hard to kill in this deck: so white knight, black knight, zombie outlander, calcite snapper, valeron outlander, and deft dualist, ball lightning.
but basically the best creatures in standard with a small handful of exceptions. listing the exceptions is easier than listing the non exceptions: baneslayer, motwh, emeria angel, jwar jwar, malakir bloodwitch, vampire nocturnus, eldrazi, iona
Inquisition of Kozilek hits: Knight of the Reliquary, Ball Lightning, Goblin Guide, Knight of the White Orchid, Stoneforge Mystic, Sprouting Thrinax, Student of Warfare
You want Duress vs slower decks and combo decks. You want Inquisition versus much faster decks/aggro decks. Duress fits against combo because a turn 3-4 Duress is still extremely valuable; Inquisition probably has no place in Junk because we won't be casting it turn 1 or 2, when it has the most value.
//gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?page=21&action=advanced&format=+[%22Standard%22">&cmc=+%3C=[3]&type=+![%22Land%22]"]http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?page=21&action=advanced&format=+[%22Standard%22]&cmc=+%3C=[3]&type=+![%22Land%22]
and
Here is a list all of the cards you can hit with duress:
//gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?page=22&action=advanced&format=+[%22Standard%22">&type=+![%22Land%22]+![%22Creature%22]"]http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?page=22&action=advanced&format=+[%22Standard%22]&type=+![%22Land%22]+![%22Creature%22]
Kozilek hits 30 pages of cards and duress hits 23.
I think Kozilek can be played main deck since it'll pretty much grasp any removal and/or any starter creatures of other decks.
Duress can be sided in against planeswalker control I guess but pithing needle might be better for that perhaps.
Right now I'm testing 4 kozileks and 4 tidehollow scullers main as well as 2 dauntless escorts.
I actually like dropping a hierarch and a kozilek during first 2 turns, it really creates a good game plan for the rest of the game. The knight seems to stay alive this way and if that happens we have better chances of winning.
It doesn't take any relevent Walkers, which is huge.
Either go full Rock or leave the deck as Junk. Neither Inquisition nor Duress are needed in Junk.
For what it's worth aura gnarlid sees play in WG enchantress. It's a pretty good card, at least in that deck
Bant.
How do you guys play against it?
UB - Tezzerator 2.0 - UB
8-3-0
(Decklist and blog updated 4/11/2011)
"Fun fact about me: I home brew my buddies meta deck. He went from having a much lower ranking then me to a significantly higher rating since I started doing this."
I haven't even seen a version with Sovereigns of Lost Alara so if that's what you see then keep that off the board as well. Removal is necessary against this deck.
im thinking of doing what some bant players do and running 2 steppes.
Is there a build standard you guys have been using? Like WW uses Wes's build.
My junk I build off a list that looked pretty shaky and I adjusted it for me meta and I would like to re-evaluate it a bit
UB - Tezzerator 2.0 - UB
8-3-0
(Decklist and blog updated 4/11/2011)
"Fun fact about me: I home brew my buddies meta deck. He went from having a much lower ranking then me to a significantly higher rating since I started doing this."
I'll post my results here afterwards, whether I do great or wash out horribly.
2 sejiri steppe
4 marsh flats
4 forest
3 plains
2 terramorphic expanse
4 stirring wildwood
2 swamp
2 mul daya channelers
3 noble heirarch
3 lotus cobra
3 baneslayer angel
4 emeria angel
2 master of the wild hunt
4 knight of the reliquary
1 stoneforge mystic
1 behemoth sledge
1 liliana vess
2 gideon jura
2 elspeth, knight-errant
3 path to exile
2 consuming vapors
3 maelstom pulse
2 kor firewalker
1 stoneforge mystic
2 day of judgement
2 consuming vapors
3 quasali pridemage
3 great sable stag
2 grim discovery
Round 1 vs red black control.
His deck is the hardest for this style of deck IMO. It's br, with blightning. Like jund but with more creature removal. He played chandra, ob, percy, bolt, burst, nyxathid, banefire, terminate, tuktuk. I lost against him, but the games were close loss 0-2
Round 2 bye
Round 3 esper. Was so easy. Pridemages owned him, master of the wild hunt owned him, gideon owned him. Win 2-0
Round 4 boss naya with vengevine. My draws were better than his. Cobra and heirarch pulled me out of a mull down to 5. Vapors hurt him quite a bit, as did quasali pridemage. He was running next to no removal. Win 2-0
3-1 6th place out of about 20.
I am playing this in philly tomorrow, probably minus the vess for another mystic main.
Round 1 vs Mythic Bant:
Game 1: He has a fast opening with a Noble Hierarch into a War Monk into a Rafiq. I chump his double striking Monk with a Stoneforge Mystic until I draw into a removal and then a Baneslayer. I beat in with the Slayer, then he drops his own. I path it, he negates, so I path it again. Thank god I drew into so much removal, otherwise he'd have overrun me real fast. He ends up with a double Finest Hour on the board with a KotR and a War Monk. I topdeck a Pulse and nuke the Finest Hours. My KOTR eventually wins me the game, as it ends up being a 17/17 with lifelink from the Behemoth Sledge I fetched with Stoneforge Mystic.
Game 2: He has to mull to 6, my opening hand is Cobra, Path, Pulse, Doomblade, Elspeth and two fetch lands. Needless to say I curve out perfectly and pumped Cobras win me the game. This guy was a good pilot, he just got bad draws this game. I don't think he was running Conscription Mythic since I never saw Sovereigns either game.
Sidenote: During the match he says to his friend something to the extent of "I never expected to see this deck today". I think Junk now has rogue deck status in this meta.
1-0
Round 2 vs Polymorph:
Game 1: I have a good board and his deck is obvious when he drops an early Khalni Garden. I path his early guys, but he eventually resolves Polymorph and hits Emrakul. I have out 4 lands and Gideon, Emeria Angel, Noble Hierarch, and KOTR. Had I had one more land I could have outraced him by dropping Baneslayer then beating in with Emeria Angel / tokens and Slayer for the next two turns while birds chumped Emrakul. Sadly I don't hit the fifth land, and can't make tokens or drop the BSA, so I can't outrace him.
Game 2: He keeps a hand of Explore, See Beyond and lands (he tells me after). He eventually draws a Polymorph, but has no token to morph since I continually use my Pulses / Doom Blades / Paths on them. I know this because I Duressed the Polymorph away on turn 6 then proceeded to beat in for the win with Emeria Angel, Cobra and Mystic.
Game 3: I draw into 7 of my 9 removal spells, and he can't go off the whole time. He does end the game with 13 lands out, making him almost able to hardcast his Emrakul wincon.
2-0
Round 3 vs Aggro Vampires:
Game 1: I mull to 5 on the play and keep a hand of 2 Paths and 3 fetches. He drops a turn 1 Pulse Tracker, turn 2 Guul Draz Vampire and turn 3 Pulse Tracker. I get aggroed out before I can stabilize.
Game 2: I curve out perfectly, and his only removal seems to be Smother, so he can't fight past my wall of Emeria Angel and Elspeth tokens.
Game 3: I mull twice again, and almost stabilized here as well, since I have out a BSA and Elspeth. Instead of making an Elspeth token I jump the Baneslayer to gain 8 life and bring him fairly low. He has no cards in hand but he topdecks....Gatekeeper of Malakir. Damn. I proceed to sac my Slayer and get beat in by weenie vamps. I almost stabilize again with a Mystic and a KOTR, but he draws into a Nocturnus and flies over them with his army of bad cards.
2-1
Round 4 vs Jund:
Game 1: He mulls to 6 on the play and gets stuck on 3 lands. I go Hierarch, Cobra, KotR, Emeria Angel, GG.
Game 2: He's a good player but he made the key mistake of boarding out his creatures for removal, which is a big no-no against Junk, since I board in 7 more creatures here (3 Firewalkers, 2 Stags and 2 Slimes). We have a locked board when he drops a Bloodwitch and I drop a Slayer. I draw into a Pulse for the Witch and he draws into a Siege Gang for the Slayer. Thankfully I have a Firewalker out gaining me life, which was key here. Eventually my board grows and grows, and by the end of the match I have out almost every type of creature in my deck. He draws no business, and is forced to throw Blightnings at me even when I have no hand. It was a close game at first, but he stopped drawing business and I didn't. He was a good pilot, to be sure.
3-1
Round 5 vs Polymorph
Game 1: I get stuck without white mana, despite having 14 lands that get me white in my deck. He polymorphs and I scoop while staring at my Path in hand.
Game 2: I mull once, and keep a land of a Path, a Hierarch, a Slayer and a Borderland Ranger and two lands. However the lands don't add green, and I never see a third land the entire game. I draw into another Path and a Doom Blade, but it's no help. One swamp and one plains can only get you so far with a deck that needs green to accelerate. Like game 1, I was surprised my deck didn't give me one of my 14 green sources. Anyway, eventually he goes off and I concede.
3-2 (drop).
There were only 90 players at the event or so, so I could have kept going and hoped for a 5-2 record, however I was tired by this point from not sleeping in almost 24 hours and I had a friend who'd dropped earlier and was waiting around, so I figured leaving at 3-2 was fine. My losses involved lot of mulling and mana screws so I didn't feel like I was outplayed by the decks I lost to or anything like that (seriously though, aggro vamps? Who knew? :P)
Plus it was a nice way to check out the new meta post-ROE.
There was roughly:
30% Jund
30% U/W and Walker control builds
15% Polymorph
15% Mythic Bant
10% Everything else (Junk, Time Sieve, Eldrazi Green, RDW)
My list is here:
2 Borderland Ranger
3 Emeria Angel
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Putrid Leech
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Behemoth Sledge
4 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Gideon Jura
3 Path to Exile
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
2 Sunpetal Grove
2 Swamp
3 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Acidic Slime
2 Duress
2 Great Sable Stag
2 Mold Shambler
2 Doom Blade
3 Kor Firewalker
NOTES:
Yes I'm running 61 cards in the MD. It seemed to work out fine. I went from 23 to 24 lands and the games I didn't get mana hosed went really smoothly.
I'm glad I took out the Martial Coups for the Mystic package, as the Sledge was vital for winning me some matchups. Plus the Mystic is another body to chump / beat in with.
I boarded out Gideon every time, no exception. I don't know if I like him in this deck. I'll continue to test more.
How do you remember the details of the matches so well? Is one permitted to take notes during matches?
I will just note what I played with some general commentaries about the decks I saw and what I felt the problems with me deck were that led to me losing to them were. I can't give turn by turn summaries or even match by match in any good detail.
Philly Open 5-8-10
Round 1RWU planeswalker control:
I wished I had paid better attention to l3ds discussion of this deck earlier, because I didn't expect to get hammered so hard by it. One match I had solid board control but his 6 point martial coup was unrecoverable from. I had Lilly on the board and tutored for a pulse which would have been superb but he dropped Jace, Mindsulptor and fatesealed me which pretty much sealed the game for him. At least he ceded that his deck was pure netdeck. Didn't feel as bad losing with my own build to a netdeck :cool2:. I felt pretty brutalized by this deck overall. My sideboard was woefully inadequate to cope with this deck. loss 0-2
Round 2 Jund:
He was using no RoE cards whatsoever. He blightninged me turn 3 and 4 which was pretty bad. The second game I boarded in 3 grim disco, 3 stags, and 3 firewalkers. The discos I am very pleased with. They allowed for blightning recoveries and to pad myself against his removal. The second game was close but he ended up owning the board with 2 siege gangs and a bloodwitch. Gideon was really good at staving off my doom and allowing me to recover to play for the long game in the second match. I'd force him to attack gideon and often he didn't have enough on the board to deal 8 to him. Loss 0-2
round 3 Boss Naya:
I dont remember this match very well at all, other than that gideon was useful in assassinating his tapped knights. Loss 1-2. The final game I lost was utterly retarded. I had no green sources and a handful of 2 channelers, 1 knight, and 1 pulse, which could have allowed me to stay in the game or perhaps win.
Round 4 Esper Aggro: (he had it written on his deck box :D)
I don't remember this match very well either probably because I recieved a warning and overlooked some rules which I shouldn't have overlooked which embarassed me. His deck was master of etherium, lodestone golum, ethersworn cannonist, etherswarn shieldmage, o-ring, borderposts, doomblade, and vedalken outlander (much better build than the one I saw last fnm running ajudicator and no borderposts to pump master). Thats really all I recall. Ethersworn cannonist and golums were pains in the arse. Consuming vapors were good in this match. Win 2-1.
Round 5 Jund
I don't remember this match too well either, cept I've played the dude before locally. I mulled down to 6 one game and 5 the other which doesn't help against a deck running blightning. I saw none of the 8 cards I boarded in against him either. Once again malakir bloodwitch was a pain. Loss 0-2
Dropped after this. I was happy with my draft picks after this though. Got a realms uncharted, bear umbra, consuming vapors, and hellcarver demon which I think combined payed for the draft
I think my deck had inconsistencies from running too many 3 ofs and possibly from going up to 62 cards. The masters didn't seem to do anything for me when I got them. I have reservations about the mystic in general. I nearly always boarded sledge out because I felt that it was too slow against most of the decks. I might just run 2 or 3 collars. Even though the double black seems prohibitive I still stand by vess. The games where I played out were often games where I was tutoring for key cards at key moments. Unlike Ambassaror, I found all 3 of gideons abilities to be very useful. Mul daya channelers is still indeterminate. In playtest she was really good, and she was decent sometimes today, and not so much other times.
Consuming vapors is very good, but it is not so good against jund. The double steppe was extremely useful. More than once I activated a wildwood, and played a steppe giving him pro whatever flier they had, before sending him in the air with elspeth. I endorse running 2 steppe. With all this said, my play is rusty, and I mad poor decision. Post sideboard after seeing they had o-rings I often forgot to board in pridemage. I play too aggressively with the knights when there are times I should hold back to force them to waste their removal by fetching for steppes. Manlands were problematic for me which makes me think I could run 4 path to exile or even a tec edge.
I find the firewalker to be lackluster as is the stag at this current point in the meta. Firewalker is win vs RDW but against other decks running red it's meh. Against Jund it doesn't seem to do a whole lot. They can block with leech, beast, and pulse or otherwise play around it. The same goes for stag. It doesn't do anything against the decks that are being played when you need it to. Pro blue, ok they can't jace it, but they still have numerous other answers. It's ok against jund but it can be played around with their aggressive card advantage engine. It's ok against bant but only because of rhox war monk. These cards are nice in some situations but what we need are cards which are general and counteract the core engines of decks rather than situational nuisances. I feel that grim discovery is one such card: not only is it good against blightning, but it's good against jund in general because it allows you to compete with their card engine, and with their excellent removal. It's good against any deck running good spot removal or land hate, and it allows you to return fetches, and edges if you use them. Quasali pridemage is another such card. Enchantments are pervasive as are artifacts and many decks are reliant on them to function properly. I believe acidic slime is also such a card which is general and strikes at the heart of decks rather than at contingencies. Everything said about QPM applies to slime, and it also strikes their duals and man lands. I think wall of Luminarch ascension however is not such a card imo. In theory it's nice but in practice it just never seems to pan out. Especially with oblivion ring everywhere and control decks that playing more aggressively such as tapout and RWU, and not only that, its not even good against the bad control decks like jacerator. I can no longer settle for narrow situational cards in my sideboard like firewalker, stag, and ascension. Another problem is often deciding what to sideboard out. Also anyone who has been endorsing duress over cosi's inquisition, I am going to have to agree after playing against planeswalker control...
T2:?
MWSTesting:URRuneflare Trap
My Trade Thread
4 Forest
4 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Sunpetal Grove
2 Swamp
2 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Sejiri Steppe
Creatures
4 Emeria Angel
4 Baneslayer Angel
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Path to Exile
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Consuming Vapors
2 Realms Uncharted
1 Behemoth Sledge
4 Identity Crisis
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Celestial Purge
2 World Queller
2 Tajuru Preserver
First off, noble hierarchs... just why? Apparently it's some sort of debate. You are running 3 colors, blue is not one of them, black is. I would much rather hit black every time than be stuck with a pulse in my hand and a noble hieararch on the field. Thanks blue mana for being worthless to me, but wait, I can hit you for 1 more damage a turn! And that doesn't even cover the fact that birds is a great chump blocker in the air from turn 1 to turn 100. Consistency wins games, noble hieararchs are cute, but worthless to Junk.
Moving right along. Consuming vapors is great. It absolutely murders tempo. Even if they only have one creature out, if you consuming vapors, you can be sure that they aren't going to play another creature the next turn. Or that maybe they'll play two, which you're fine with also.
Realms Uncharted is just silly in this deck. I always search for Terramorphic, March Flats, Verdant Cats, and a GW land. If they are smart, they'll give me the GW and the Terramorphic. Either way, you're dumping land into your graveyard for the knights, thinning your deck, getting extra fuel for cobras/emerias, and putting lands into your hand that can easily be tossed to blightning for more win. That being said, I run two. Three is maybe doable, but four is way too much.
I don't really find that Basilisk Collar is needed. My creatures are big and I pack lot's of removal. Behemoth Sledge is great for keeping up with aggro decks. In my opinion, 2 is the perfect number of sledges, so 1 sledge and 1 mystic. That way, if I draw them both, at least I have another body.
Sideboarding...
Jund:
-2 Elspeth
-3 Paths
+2 Vines of the Vastwood
+3 Celestial Purge
I usually don't have trouble with Jund preboard, and afterwards, it's even better. Why do I take out Elspeths and put in Vines? Because likely they've already seen Elspeth (which is a medium threat for Jund) and there's a very small chance they'd be expecting Vines. Don't underestimate Vines. Sometimes, for very heavy removal builds, I'll add in more Vines.
Planeswalker Control (and probably any heavy control type deck):
-1 Behemoth Sledge
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-3 Paths
+2 World Queller
+3 Identity Crisis
Against control, sledges are the first thing to go, and creature removal isn't far behind. Planeswalker Control is very unhappy about World Queller, it is a must answer for them. I usually bait them out with Queller and try playing the board really light until I'm sure that Crisis will land. Since I run birds, the 2 black isn't a problem. Once Identity Crisis hits, it is pretty much game over.
Polymorph:
-1 Behemoth Sledge
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-4 Maelstrom Pulse
+2 Tajuru Preserver
+4 Vines of Vastwood
Sledges are useless as this is pretty much all or nothing. Vines for Pulses because they cost only 1g and they are instant. Polymorph? Oh ok, how about I Vines your token, thanks for playing. Tajuru Preservers are something I've been playing around with, so I don't have much on them yet, but they seem like they might be able to stall as long as you have Emerias or Elspeth out. Regardless, your top priority is stopping them casting Polymorph.
Naya:
I haven't faced a lot of Naya, but honestly, preboard Junk is pretty much designed to beat aggro decks like Naya. Just stall them with removal (Consuming Vapors is great here) until they run out of gas and you can stabilize. Just watch out for Naya Charm alpha strikes.
Bant:
-2 Elspeth
-1 other random card
+3 Vines
Again, they are probably running Elspeth or expecting her. They won't be expecting Vines. You run more removal and better removal, add in some Vines and your fatties have a lot longer shelf life than theirs. Just keep Rafiq off the field and you should be fine.
Vampires:
-3 Paths
+3 Purges
I've never had trouble with vampires. Save the Paths/Purges for Nocturnus and accept the hits from the weenies. You'll gain the life back, see Baneslayer, Sledge, and Consuming Vapors. They'll have to over extend to get around your superior creatures leaving them vulnerable to Pulse. Bloodwitch isn't fun, but with Vapors and Pulses main deck, you should be ok. Use Elspeth and Emerias to keep Gatekeeper useless.
If it's more of a MBC build, then you'll probably want to fit in some Identity Crisis, but I still wouldn't be overly worried. Against mono black, the only real threat is hand hate and the only sweeper you have to worry about is Consume the Meek, so you can pretty much dump your hand and be merrily on your way.
I think that's about everything, but really, I've had tons of fun piloting this deck (which my friends and I call "The Money"). It's more control oriented than the Junk builds with Leeches, but I think that in this environment it's definitely the way to go.