Talk about it this idea originated in The Official Cube Discussion Thread. This is a concept a can really get behind, and I have just about infinite free time so I can spear head and keep this project moving along at a reasonable rate. So without further ado...
The Premise: Design a set specifically built for cubing drafting.
Any idea's and input about the lay out, concepts, themes, and numbers of the Cube Set can be discussed, and i strongly encourage everyone to participate in helping to create a balanced limited environment for the set.
Stage One: The Basics
Number of cards - 50 of each colour, 30 multi, 40 land and artifacts
Colour/Artifact/Land break-down
Power level
Reprints (functional reprints?)
Colour concepts
something else I'm probably forgetting
Deadlines:
May 9th 11:59 PM, GMT -7 (west coast): Final colour break down determined.
May 16th 11:59 PM, GMT -7: Set skeleton, including colour themes and creature/spell ratios.
Just to be clear the idea isn't to design a set that is 100% full of cards that could be cubable, but is still a regular set, but to design a cube for which we can make new cards, correct?
To get the ball rolling, I think that starting at 360 cards would be fine, as we can always add new cards as we create them. The colour breakdown for a 360 card cube would be something like 45 of each colour, 50 artifacts, 45 lands and 40 multicolour cards. I think the custom card cube's power level should be about on par, or maybe slightly better then, a powered cube, only more balanced. Functional reprints are probably going to be necessities for cards like wrath of god, I would want to avoid using real cards though as the concept is more about creating an entire set of new cards to cube with.
60 cards of each color
65 artifacts
20 hybrid cards (2 of each color pair)
10 gold cards (1 of each color pair)
10 triple gold cards (1 for each shard & wedge)
10 triple gold hybrids (1 for each shard & wedge) Cards like Slave of Bolas
20 dual lands (2 cycles for each color)
15 utility lands
I definitely think we ought to use reprints.
As for color themes I think we should try to use wtlwf's general breakdown for aggro/control balance for the 5 colors and try to provide a couple of subthemes for each color.
First we should agree on the setsize, then on how many cards of each color/type there should be...
If it's 360 cards that's the goal then I think the following split should be fine:
50 White
30 Creatures
20 Other spells
60% Aggro
40% Control
50 Blue
20 Creatures
30 Other spells
25% Aggro
75% Control
50 Black
25 Creatures
25 Other spells
50% Aggro
50% Control
50 Red
20 Creatures
30 Other spells
75% Aggro
25% Control
50 Green
30 Creatures
20 Other spells
40% Aggro
60% Control
And then there's 110 cards left for Lands, Artifacts and multi.
This is just an example, but it shows how there's an even balance between creatures and other spells and between Aggro and Control, if you add all the colors together. That's an important design approach imo. An even balance leads to a funnier cube where more strategies are viable.
I agree that generic cards like Disenchant, Lightning Bolt, Counterspell, etc. Could very well end up in the list. I think flavour specific cards that make references to places in the game could be added as functional reprints.
After we hammer out the basic list of cards we could even do a forum cross over and get people from the Art thread and get some more flavour savvy people to give this set its own unique feel.
Would you want every card in this set/cube to be new? Some of the simple staples are timeless favourites for a reason: Naturalize, Disenchant, Duress, Lightning Bolt, Counterspell...
This set should still have those but any non-vanilla spell should be fresh. So no Stomphowler, Seal of Cleansing, Thoughtseize, Incinerate, Mana Drain...
I agree with this. We should allow some of the vanilla spells added in functional reprints into this cube.
All the ones you mention here, except Duress, that I don't think need to be added. Savannah Lions should also be on that list.
I agree that generic cards like Disenchant, Lightning Bolt, Counterspell, etc. Could very well end up in the list. I think flavour specific cards that make references to places in the game could be added as functional reprints.
After we hammer out the basic list of cards we could even do a forum cross over and get people from the Art thread and get some more flavour savvy people to give this set its own unique feel.
Personally I would want this set to have as generic a fantasy setting as possible. Think about how basic the fantasy setting was in Alpha. We had a bloodthirsty vampire that got bigger based off its victims. We had a fire breating Dragon. We had the classic white and black knight facing off against each other. It was so basic that anyone could understand it. It really did feel like we were summoning spells out of a DnD or Tolkien book. It's why from a flavor perspective Alpha is my favorite set.
I agree with this. We should allow some of the vanilla spells added in functional reprints into this cube.
All the ones you mention here, except Duress, that I don't think need to be added. Savannah Lions should also be on that list.
I could see Savannah Lions being replaced with any other creature from a flavor perspective. There is no reason that a 2/1 for w should be a lion. And this way we get to use new art.
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I don't agree on the flavor thing. One of my favorite aspects of the cube is that its a selection of spells from all different sets and not just one big pile of the same flavor. This doesn't need to be approachable because a. its not a real set. and b. I doubt many new players are ever going to see it. Why not have fun with it?
I'm also not big on including cards that were already made like bolt or naturalize. I feel like we could creatively come up with our own thing and shouldn't have to rely on other cards.
I don't agree on the flavor thing. One of my favorite aspects of the cube is that its a selection of spells from all different sets and not just one big pile of the same flavor. This doesn't need to be approachable because a. its not a real set. and b. I doubt many new players are ever going to see it. Why not have fun with it?
I'm also not big on including cards that were already made like bolt or naturalize. I feel like we could creatively come up with our own thing and shouldn't have to rely on other cards.
But something like lightning bolt is an elegant design and there's no good way to replace it. If there's a card that is exactly what we want for the cube we shouldn't kill it because it's already been done.
But something like lightning bolt is an elegant design and there's no good way to replace it. If there's a card that is exactly what we want for the cube we shouldn't kill it because it's already been done.
We could ofcourse do the new version of Lightning Bolt: Slug BoltR
Sorcery
~ deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
I would definitely like this to be mostly new cards, but I can understand some staple effects being too simple or direct to need an original card for. Excited about this project.
Creature // non-creature split between each color.
The split between aggro and control for each color.
Determine how we will do this. Should there be a month to finalize each color? And in what order should we do them? Each color at a time, or another approach?
I would definitely like this to be mostly new cards, but I can understand some staple effects being too simple or direct to need an original card for. Excited about this project.
I feel like its similar to going camping with an RV, shower, television, and stove. You can do it but its not really camping at that point. Why not go all out if you can? It would suck to be without some of the more powerful cube staples but it would be a lot of fun to come up with other designs and not have to worry about UU instantly meaning counterspell. I wouldn't mind trying to do without.
Edit.
@Bondafong - we should figure out how many different categories we want to include and how many of them are in a normalish cube. (ex: Reanimate spells, disenchant spells, counters, card draw, control magic effects, black removal, mass removal, ramp spells, ramp targets, etc etc) and then do it by rounds. Each round, we tackle one of those sections of the cube.
IIRC, when Reavnica block (EDIT: Zendikar block?) got designed, each of the guilds (EDIT: shards?) had a different design team and they met afterwards and mashed up their designs into a single file, going on from there.
We could do the same with the color sections.
Are we trying to make a set or a cube? Two very different animals.
edit. Also, I think it would be better if everyone submitted cards for each color, etc. Cubes are cool because the best cards come from all different sets, with all different designers. I would want that kind of feeling to be in this.
IIRC, when Reavnica block (EDIT: Zendikar block?) got designed, each of the guilds (EDIT: shards?) had a different design team and they met afterwards and mashed up their designs into a single file, going on from there.
I'm pretty sure that they did this with the five shards.
So what do we do with the staple effects when we don't "reprint" staple cards? We don't want them to be worse. It's still a cube, we want the best cards! Do we design replacements that Wizards could actually print, even if they are strictly better than existing cards? Wizards does the same thing, too: Grizzly Bears, Wild Mongrel...
So instead of chosing Naturalize we had something like:
Better than Rending Vines2G
Instant
Destroy target artifact or enchantment. Draw a card.
What I mean is: It will be hard to design cards with staple effects that are just as good / cubable as the actual staple cards without being strictly better than them.
What I mean is: It will be hard to design cards with staple effects that are just as good / cubable as the actual staple cards without being strictly better than them.
I was thinking of a cube design. Like a set, a cube is divided into color sections, so i don't see the problem.
Not every green card in a cube is made by the same team of people. Its spread out over the history of magic and designed by multiple teams. To make it exclusive to a certain group of people is limiting and goes against what a cube is. If someone with a more Kamigawa sensibility makes a great card for the cube, it should go in right next to the ravnicaish cards.
I sound like a broken record but I think it would be best to do it in rounds where you fill a quota for a certain card type that is usually in the cube. If our cube runs 5 reanimate spells, we do a round where people try and design the five best reanimation spells they would like to see in a cube.
I'm sure people can think up tons of burn spells, weenie spells, wrath spells, etc that they would love to see in a cube. We don't need to depend on staples to fill this thing with good ideas.
Creature // non-creature split between each color.
The split between aggro and control for each color.
Determine how we will do this. Should there be a month to finalize each color? And in what order should we do them? Each color at a time, or another approach?
360 sounds fine for a set size to me, but I'm not married to that. I just think that, for our first attempt at this, we might as well go as small as possible.
50 of each color
40 artifacts
40 lands(25 mana fixing and 15 utility)
30 gold cards(2 of each color pair for a total of 20 and 10 shard and wedge cards)
I don't know that we should have a set goal for number of creature to noncreature spells as much as we should have a goal for aggro to control support spells and go from there. No need to put restrictions like that on us; let's just make what the cube needs.
I also don't know that we should put a set time limit on each section, lest we should be making subpar cards trying to get the section finished in time, but I do think it should be pretty brisk and this group won't have any trouble with that. As far as the order goes, I think we could try to do them in order of WUBRG and then try to fill in the land and artifact gaps for what's needed, but we shouldn't refuse a good card that's suggested after its section has passed.
Card designing is probably my favorite Magic related thing after Cube and EDH, so I'm ready to get started.
I agree with the breakdown you two proposed, though I side with wtwlf123 on the tricolor question: In such a small cube, two color cards are sufficient.
How will the actual process work? Everyone posts a few card ideas and then we vote which ones to use?
50 each color
40 colorless
40 lands (3 fixing cycles, 10 utility)
30 multicolor (3 per pair, no tri/wedge)
I say up to 10% of the cube can be functional reprints of cards that currently exist, but the other 90% has to be brand new cards.
I like this breakdown for a 360 cube. People complain often enough that shard and wedge cards don't get picked often enough to make them influential in the draft and construction process. Unless they use hybrid costs ala Slave of Bolas, I wouldn't put them in the Cube Set (and then, they probably won't feel flavorful enough).
However, I wouldn't be opposed to running 48 of each color, 1 each color pair as true hybrid cards, and 3 per multicolor pair. Since we're designing the cards, they don't have to be crappy like some of the existing hybrid cards.
The Premise: Design a set specifically built for cubing drafting.
Any idea's and input about the lay out, concepts, themes, and numbers of the Cube Set can be discussed, and i strongly encourage everyone to participate in helping to create a balanced limited environment for the set.
Stage One: The Basics
Number of cards - 50 of each colour, 30 multi, 40 land and artifacts
Colour/Artifact/Land break-down
Power level
Reprints (functional reprints?)
Colour concepts
something else I'm probably forgetting
Important Project related links:
Set Name/Symbol - http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=241107
Modular Expansion Theory - http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=241081
White Creatures - http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=241081
[CSP] Set Size and Colour Breakdown - http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=241584
[CSP] Skeleton, Themes and Archetypes - http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=242057
All official project links will start with [CSP]
Deadlines:
May 9th 11:59 PM, GMT -7 (west coast): Final colour break down determined.
May 16th 11:59 PM, GMT -7: Set skeleton, including colour themes and creature/spell ratios.
To get the ball rolling, I think that starting at 360 cards would be fine, as we can always add new cards as we create them. The colour breakdown for a 360 card cube would be something like 45 of each colour, 50 artifacts, 45 lands and 40 multicolour cards. I think the custom card cube's power level should be about on par, or maybe slightly better then, a powered cube, only more balanced. Functional reprints are probably going to be necessities for cards like wrath of god, I would want to avoid using real cards though as the concept is more about creating an entire set of new cards to cube with.
450 cards
60 cards of each color
65 artifacts
20 hybrid cards (2 of each color pair)
10 gold cards (1 of each color pair)
10 triple gold cards (1 for each shard & wedge)
10 triple gold hybrids (1 for each shard & wedge) Cards like Slave of Bolas
20 dual lands (2 cycles for each color)
15 utility lands
I definitely think we ought to use reprints.
As for color themes I think we should try to use wtlwf's general breakdown for aggro/control balance for the 5 colors and try to provide a couple of subthemes for each color.
If it's 360 cards that's the goal then I think the following split should be fine:
50 White
This is just an example, but it shows how there's an even balance between creatures and other spells and between Aggro and Control, if you add all the colors together. That's an important design approach imo. An even balance leads to a funnier cube where more strategies are viable.
My Tribal cube
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My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
After we hammer out the basic list of cards we could even do a forum cross over and get people from the Art thread and get some more flavour savvy people to give this set its own unique feel.
I agree with this. We should allow some of the vanilla spells added in functional reprints into this cube.
All the ones you mention here, except Duress, that I don't think need to be added. Savannah Lions should also be on that list.
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
Personally I would want this set to have as generic a fantasy setting as possible. Think about how basic the fantasy setting was in Alpha. We had a bloodthirsty vampire that got bigger based off its victims. We had a fire breating Dragon. We had the classic white and black knight facing off against each other. It was so basic that anyone could understand it. It really did feel like we were summoning spells out of a DnD or Tolkien book. It's why from a flavor perspective Alpha is my favorite set.
I could see Savannah Lions being replaced with any other creature from a flavor perspective. There is no reason that a 2/1 for w should be a lion. And this way we get to use new art.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
I'm also not big on including cards that were already made like bolt or naturalize. I feel like we could creatively come up with our own thing and shouldn't have to rely on other cards.
Draft my cube!
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But something like lightning bolt is an elegant design and there's no good way to replace it. If there's a card that is exactly what we want for the cube we shouldn't kill it because it's already been done.
We could ofcourse do the new version of Lightning Bolt:
Slug Bolt R
Sorcery
~ deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
I feel like its similar to going camping with an RV, shower, television, and stove. You can do it but its not really camping at that point. Why not go all out if you can? It would suck to be without some of the more powerful cube staples but it would be a lot of fun to come up with other designs and not have to worry about UU instantly meaning counterspell. I wouldn't mind trying to do without.
Edit.
@Bondafong - we should figure out how many different categories we want to include and how many of them are in a normalish cube. (ex: Reanimate spells, disenchant spells, counters, card draw, control magic effects, black removal, mass removal, ramp spells, ramp targets, etc etc) and then do it by rounds. Each round, we tackle one of those sections of the cube.
Draft my cube!
Watch me stream!
Are we trying to make a set or a cube? Two very different animals.
edit. Also, I think it would be better if everyone submitted cards for each color, etc. Cubes are cool because the best cards come from all different sets, with all different designers. I would want that kind of feeling to be in this.
Draft my cube!
Watch me stream!
I'm pretty sure that they did this with the five shards.
So what do we do with the staple effects when we don't "reprint" staple cards? We don't want them to be worse. It's still a cube, we want the best cards! Do we design replacements that Wizards could actually print, even if they are strictly better than existing cards? Wizards does the same thing, too: Grizzly Bears, Wild Mongrel...
So instead of chosing Naturalize we had something like:
Better than Rending Vines 2G
Instant
Destroy target artifact or enchantment. Draw a card.
What I mean is: It will be hard to design cards with staple effects that are just as good / cubable as the actual staple cards without being strictly better than them.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I'm up to the challenge.
Draft my cube!
Watch me stream!
Not every green card in a cube is made by the same team of people. Its spread out over the history of magic and designed by multiple teams. To make it exclusive to a certain group of people is limiting and goes against what a cube is. If someone with a more Kamigawa sensibility makes a great card for the cube, it should go in right next to the ravnicaish cards.
I sound like a broken record but I think it would be best to do it in rounds where you fill a quota for a certain card type that is usually in the cube. If our cube runs 5 reanimate spells, we do a round where people try and design the five best reanimation spells they would like to see in a cube.
I'm sure people can think up tons of burn spells, weenie spells, wrath spells, etc that they would love to see in a cube. We don't need to depend on staples to fill this thing with good ideas.
Draft my cube!
Watch me stream!
360 sounds fine for a set size to me, but I'm not married to that. I just think that, for our first attempt at this, we might as well go as small as possible.
50 of each color
40 artifacts
40 lands(25 mana fixing and 15 utility)
30 gold cards(2 of each color pair for a total of 20 and 10 shard and wedge cards)
I don't know that we should have a set goal for number of creature to noncreature spells as much as we should have a goal for aggro to control support spells and go from there. No need to put restrictions like that on us; let's just make what the cube needs.
I also don't know that we should put a set time limit on each section, lest we should be making subpar cards trying to get the section finished in time, but I do think it should be pretty brisk and this group won't have any trouble with that. As far as the order goes, I think we could try to do them in order of WUBRG and then try to fill in the land and artifact gaps for what's needed, but we shouldn't refuse a good card that's suggested after its section has passed.
Card designing is probably my favorite Magic related thing after Cube and EDH, so I'm ready to get started.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
50 each color
40 colorless
40 lands (3 fixing cycles, 10 utility)
30 multicolor (3 per pair, no tri/wedge)
I say up to 10% of the cube can be functional reprints of cards that currently exist, but the other 90% has to be brand new cards.
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How will the actual process work? Everyone posts a few card ideas and then we vote which ones to use?
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I like this breakdown for a 360 cube. People complain often enough that shard and wedge cards don't get picked often enough to make them influential in the draft and construction process. Unless they use hybrid costs ala Slave of Bolas, I wouldn't put them in the Cube Set (and then, they probably won't feel flavorful enough).
However, I wouldn't be opposed to running 48 of each color, 1 each color pair as true hybrid cards, and 3 per multicolor pair. Since we're designing the cards, they don't have to be crappy like some of the existing hybrid cards.
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