My only issue against them is that they're by default a mythic rare card. Flavor wise it doesn't make any sense for them to be anything less than that but that means they'll just end up typically being the most expensive cards in a set, or at least relatively high compared to other cards.
It's annoying when all the decks are basically played around them, and basically if you can't get rid of one you lose. It's, they either pro-long the game or shorten the game crucially. People who don't want to spend 300 dollars on MtG are already at a disadvantage.. Some of them are just ridiculous.. at least be more mana.
It's annoying when all the decks are basically played around them, and basically if you can't get rid of one you lose. It's, they either pro-long the game or shorten the game crucially. People who don't want to spend 300 dollars on MtG are already at a disadvantage.. Some of them are just ridiculous.. at least be more mana.
Planeswalkers have been around since Lorwyn. The dominant deck from Lorwyn - Faeries - didn't run Planeswalkers. The dominant deck from Shards - Jund - didn't particularly require them; though some builds have run Garruk, Bloodbraid Elf is just so much better as a 4-drop. Vampires don't play around Planeswalkers. The only current top deck that can be said to have planeswalkers as a required core is possibly UW control.
Bear in mind: The easiest way to remove planeswalkers is by burning the opponent or by attacking. If you can neither burn the opponent directly nor attack him, you've probably already lost.
I think that the card type is interesting and fun. I wish it were better integrated with some of the older effects in Magic, but I think that over time we'll see support for it stabilize on a decent level.
Is it me or were Planeswalkers much more reasonable when they just came out with Lorwyn?
They were much much more cautious with the design of them since they didn't want them to be auto-includes and it was a brand new experimental card type. Not being Mythic kept their price in check too.
Now Planeswalkers are too strong and seem to have replaced most deck spots traditionally held by Enchantments and Artifacts... This I really don't like. I don't see them fixing this issue unless they drastically reduce the power levels and make them on par with Lorwyn walkers again.
Just another new element to mix up the game. I'm very happy with them, they're a solid addition in my opinion.
EDIT: At Sporvan
1. There wasn't any mythics when they first released
2. What kept their price down was multiple printings
3. They are now mythic if being reprint in a core set
4. It's not like they're not allowed to expand on the card design, and test different power levels. Let's please not have this turn into a Jace 2.0 discussion.
I only dislike Planeswalkers because they tend to be head-and-shoulders above everything else. They are so much better than other cards that they tank the values of entire sets and warp formats around them.
This is obviously unhealthy and seems to be the result of trial-and-error powerlevel tweaking by R&D. I suspect in a few years' time we'll see either fewer (or no more) Planeswalkers or overall weaker Planeswalkers.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
I didn't like them at first b/c they were fairly confusing and required about a paragraph of rules text (which, of course, wasn't even on the card...also a problem.)
I'm generally ok with them now but I think they totally outclass any other card type. That is a bit of a problem.
1) Cards like Oblivion Ringabsolutely help but it's very difficult to envision answers this efficient in all the other colors. If only has access to things like this, seems to me we have a rather stark imbalance among the colors. (and their playability across formats)
I suspect they are working on ways to bring them back down a notch across all colors. Planeswalker-centric removal. If they do not do this, I predict a MAJOR uproar in Standard the next 3-5 years, way things are currently going. People are having a harder and harder time just keeping up with the price tag. And 'kids' (who are the ones they need to keep this game going) are basically shut out.
2) They also drive up the cost of deckbuilding considerably for anyone who is interested in playing with non-garbage.
If they can't (and they really can't) control the prices of PW's on secondary market, they need to start printing WAY more removal options at common rarity to help people find a way to win without resorting to crap like SuperFriends.dec. You can still play that deck if you want to, and have the $ to do so, but give the rest of us some ways to still play around them.
Planeswalkers are only a tiny percentage of cards outside of decks like Superfriends, current UW control, and Lord of the Rings, though. Planeswalker specific removal would have to be pushed hard to be worth more than a sideboard slot.
Smiting of Bolas B
Instant
Destroy target planeswalker.
Aether WarpU
Counter target planeswalker spell.
Draw a card.
Exile W
Enchantment
When Exile enters the battlefield, exile target planeswalker.
When Exile leaves the battlefield, return the exiled card to the battlefield.
Otherworldly Flare R
Instant
Deal 2 damage to target player.
If Otherworldly Flare would damage a planeswalker, it deals 6 damage instead.
Super Naturalize G
Instant
Destroy target noncreature, nonland permanent. Its controller gains 5 life.
Really, look at the artifact/enchantment destruction and you'll see that this is the kind of power level you'd need to make tournament spikes play specific planeswalker removal. Hell, even creature removal has to cost 1-2 mana to see play right now. Lightning Bolt, Burst Lightning, Searing Blaze, Path to Exile, Terminate, Essence Scatter, Journey to Nowhere, Doom Blade, etc. Hexmage only costs 2 mana and deals with planeswalkers, level up, random jank, and is a 2/1, first strike. So, is this what people really want to see printed, though? Planeswalker specific removal means the ultimate storyline characters getting singled out and blown away for a single mana. That might not even be enough, though. Pithing Needle effectively reads "Destroy target planeswalker and all copies your opponent plays this game" outside of Oblivion Ring/Maelstrom Pulse. It also hoses other nonplaneswalker permanents and still doesn't see much play.
I enjoy Planeswalkers a lot. I don't feel they are overpowered compared to artifacts or enchantments because you need either removal or creatures to block to keep them around for a reasonable time. One Nissa's Chosen or Soldier token won't keep back more than one creature. And you can always just directly burn them anyway, something decks might actually main deck (as opposed to Naturalize or friends).
However, I do think that because of the existence of Planeswalkers, the good artifacts or enchantments that people are expecting aren't being made. Who wouldn't run an artifact that brainstormed every turn? Now it's 'balanced' in that it can be destroyed by half the cards in the game, rather than a small subset that black doesn't get. In this way, I think Planeswalkers have been beneficial. Maybe the Structure card type idea from Ravnica would have been better for this role, but Planeswalkers fill it well.
I actually enjoy planeswalkers. My only argument with them is that we don't need five new ones for each block. Slow down the amount of new planeswalkers revealed. Maybe one per set, giving you three per block. Mainly because its such a shame to see such useful cards rotate out so quick and it would limit options of planeswalkers to use that would overpower some decks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Firm believer that Net-decks are the root of a great number of ills in the game of Magic.
I love the Planeswalkers. I love the flavor they each have and the flavor Wizards brought that into to how you were a Planeswalker. Think about it. You're supposed to be a Planeswalker literally casting spells and bringing creatures from different planes to do your bidding.
Well, you're a Planeswalker than can summon other Planeswalkers to do your bidding -- how does that sound for a change, to be somewhat like a god?
I actually enjoy planeswalkers. My only argument with them is that we don't need five new ones for each block. Slow down the amount of new planeswalkers revealed. Maybe one per set, giving you three per block. Mainly because its such a shame to see such useful cards rotate out so quick and it would limit options of planeswalkers to use that would overpower some decks.
That's the method they're using at the moment.
My only problem is with the mythic rarity, balance is an issue with all magic cards.
I hate walkers because there arent enough of them. After cracking many packs, I get a few but not enough of a single one. it makes building a deck for them hard.
don't like them, they are bad characters implemented into cards just to appeal children, and they need more hosers like vindicate or innocent blood for walkers.
^ This.
Seems like a last-ditch effort as a way to boost sales. I believe they busted the game wide open and limit the deck design capabilities as they now become an almost default deck-building base. Kind of like when mechanics in certain sets force players to make decks around them (Dredge, Storm and Affinity come to mind).
The game would have been better off without them if you ask me. How many planeswalkers can they make before it becomes completely diluted?
'buster
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
I like the walkers, there is nothing wrong with them, with the exception of jace, the mind sculptor. I though wizards learned their lesson with tarmogoyf not to print broken cards.
I don't even think gideon is broken. He just happens to combo well with jace. By himself, he does exactly what he is supposed to, and he is my favorite planeswalker in terms of power level and flavor.
I believe that I have enough social competence to slip into a party or two, potentially wooing some attractive females that would not mind spending the evening performing the booty dance on me.
I think the 'walkers tend to be good designs, and are good for the game. They are fun to use and race against. The lack of 'walker specific removal isn't a bad thing. Every color can hit them with dudes, and the colors have varying degrees of support to help those creatures punch through.
If you've fallen behind to the point that you can't put pressure on an opponent's walker, it is pretty likely that any threat would have helped widen the gap.
I like them. I think they do a great job of being the face of Magic. They just need to be put out there more. They need to be printed as more commonly available Promos than just at Mythic Rarity in the set they were printed in.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That was pretty interesting. But dropping a warship on me is cheating. Take it back!
I just hate that their last ability usually says this on the text "You win the game". Man, that's not even fun. Garruk is alright. And you're limited to what? Blue and white and maybe a select few cards in black to really take care of planeswalkers... To see a lot of decks have their many focal point be, 1 or 2 cards that being planeswalkers is when you know they are broken
I didn't like them at first b/c they were fairly confusing and required about a paragraph of rules text (which, of course, wasn't even on the card...also a problem.)
I'm generally ok with them now but I think they totally outclass any other card type. That is a bit of a problem.
1) Cards like Oblivion Ringabsolutely help but it's very difficult to envision answers this efficient in all the other colors. If only has access to things like this, seems to me we have a rather stark imbalance among the colors. (and their playability across formats)
I suspect they are working on ways to bring them back down a notch across all colors. Planeswalker-centric removal. If they do not do this, I predict a MAJOR uproar in Standard the next 3-5 years, way things are currently going. People are having a harder and harder time just keeping up with the price tag. And 'kids' (who are the ones they need to keep this game going) are basically shut out.
2) They also drive up the cost of deckbuilding considerably for anyone who is interested in playing with non-garbage.
If they can't (and they really can't) control the prices of PW's on secondary market, they need to start printing WAY more removal options at common rarity to help people find a way to win without resorting to crap like SuperFriends.dec. You can still play that deck if you want to, and have the $ to do so, but give the rest of us some ways to still play around them.
My name is Surging Chaos, and I cosign this post. I couldn't have said this any better. Major kudos to you Morphling.
I don't see all this fuss over planeswalkers when bascially every single color has a 1 mana spell that takes care of them:
Pithing Needle. Not only does it disable the planeswalker on board but shuts off every duplicate your opponent draws.
Pithing Needle only disables planeswalkers temporarily, and only one at a time. It's not a terrible answer or anything, but having a permanent answer to dealing with planeswalkers that is accessable to everyone would greatly ameliorate things.
I just hate that their last ability usually says this on the text "You win the game". Man, that's not even fun. Garruk is alright. And you're limited to what? Blue and white and maybe a select few cards in black to really take care of planeswalkers... To see a lot of decks have their many focal point be, 1 or 2 cards that being planeswalkers is when you know they are broken
But you get time to deal with that ultimate before it can happen, and you can prevent them from reaching that point. In regards to their finishing moves, planewalkers are more answerable than something like a pumped Banefire.
My Trades!
Keep the novel ideas, 'novel', so to speak.
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
My Trades!
LOL
Planeswalkers have been around since Lorwyn. The dominant deck from Lorwyn - Faeries - didn't run Planeswalkers. The dominant deck from Shards - Jund - didn't particularly require them; though some builds have run Garruk, Bloodbraid Elf is just so much better as a 4-drop. Vampires don't play around Planeswalkers. The only current top deck that can be said to have planeswalkers as a required core is possibly UW control.
Bear in mind: The easiest way to remove planeswalkers is by burning the opponent or by attacking. If you can neither burn the opponent directly nor attack him, you've probably already lost.
I think that the card type is interesting and fun. I wish it were better integrated with some of the older effects in Magic, but I think that over time we'll see support for it stabilize on a decent level.
They were much much more cautious with the design of them since they didn't want them to be auto-includes and it was a brand new experimental card type. Not being Mythic kept their price in check too.
Now Planeswalkers are too strong and seem to have replaced most deck spots traditionally held by Enchantments and Artifacts... This I really don't like. I don't see them fixing this issue unless they drastically reduce the power levels and make them on par with Lorwyn walkers again.
EDIT: At Sporvan
1. There wasn't any mythics when they first released
2. What kept their price down was multiple printings
3. They are now mythic if being reprint in a core set
4. It's not like they're not allowed to expand on the card design, and test different power levels. Let's please not have this turn into a Jace 2.0 discussion.
This is obviously unhealthy and seems to be the result of trial-and-error powerlevel tweaking by R&D. I suspect in a few years' time we'll see either fewer (or no more) Planeswalkers or overall weaker Planeswalkers.
Or better rares. But probably not.
I'm generally ok with them now but I think they totally outclass any other card type. That is a bit of a problem.
1) Cards like Oblivion Ring absolutely help but it's very difficult to envision answers this efficient in all the other colors. If only has access to things like this, seems to me we have a rather stark imbalance among the colors. (and their playability across formats)
I suspect they are working on ways to bring them back down a notch across all colors. Planeswalker-centric removal. If they do not do this, I predict a MAJOR uproar in Standard the next 3-5 years, way things are currently going. People are having a harder and harder time just keeping up with the price tag. And 'kids' (who are the ones they need to keep this game going) are basically shut out.
2) They also drive up the cost of deckbuilding considerably for anyone who is interested in playing with non-garbage.
If they can't (and they really can't) control the prices of PW's on secondary market, they need to start printing WAY more removal options at common rarity to help people find a way to win without resorting to crap like SuperFriends.dec. You can still play that deck if you want to, and have the $ to do so, but give the rest of us some ways to still play around them.
Fully-powered 600-Card "Dream Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/dreamcube
450-Card "Artificer's Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/artificer
Cubing in Indianapolis...send me a PM!!
Smiting of Bolas B
Instant
Destroy target planeswalker.
Aether WarpU
Counter target planeswalker spell.
Draw a card.
Exile W
Enchantment
When Exile enters the battlefield, exile target planeswalker.
When Exile leaves the battlefield, return the exiled card to the battlefield.
Otherworldly Flare R
Instant
Deal 2 damage to target player.
If Otherworldly Flare would damage a planeswalker, it deals 6 damage instead.
Super Naturalize G
Instant
Destroy target noncreature, nonland permanent. Its controller gains 5 life.
Really, look at the artifact/enchantment destruction and you'll see that this is the kind of power level you'd need to make tournament spikes play specific planeswalker removal. Hell, even creature removal has to cost 1-2 mana to see play right now. Lightning Bolt, Burst Lightning, Searing Blaze, Path to Exile, Terminate, Essence Scatter, Journey to Nowhere, Doom Blade, etc. Hexmage only costs 2 mana and deals with planeswalkers, level up, random jank, and is a 2/1, first strike. So, is this what people really want to see printed, though? Planeswalker specific removal means the ultimate storyline characters getting singled out and blown away for a single mana. That might not even be enough, though. Pithing Needle effectively reads "Destroy target planeswalker and all copies your opponent plays this game" outside of Oblivion Ring/Maelstrom Pulse. It also hoses other nonplaneswalker permanents and still doesn't see much play.
However, I do think that because of the existence of Planeswalkers, the good artifacts or enchantments that people are expecting aren't being made. Who wouldn't run an artifact that brainstormed every turn? Now it's 'balanced' in that it can be destroyed by half the cards in the game, rather than a small subset that black doesn't get. In this way, I think Planeswalkers have been beneficial. Maybe the Structure card type idea from Ravnica would have been better for this role, but Planeswalkers fill it well.
Firm believer that Net-decks are the root of a great number of ills in the game of Magic.
Well, you're a Planeswalker than can summon other Planeswalkers to do your bidding -- how does that sound for a change, to be somewhat like a god?
That's the method they're using at the moment.
My only problem is with the mythic rarity, balance is an issue with all magic cards.
Tribal: Zombies.
Five color staircase is in development.
^ This.
Seems like a last-ditch effort as a way to boost sales. I believe they busted the game wide open and limit the deck design capabilities as they now become an almost default deck-building base. Kind of like when mechanics in certain sets force players to make decks around them (Dredge, Storm and Affinity come to mind).
The game would have been better off without them if you ask me. How many planeswalkers can they make before it becomes completely diluted?
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
I don't even think gideon is broken. He just happens to combo well with jace. By himself, he does exactly what he is supposed to, and he is my favorite planeswalker in terms of power level and flavor.
RUG Riku, Two is Better Than One
UB [PRIMER] Wrexial, Classic Control
RG Radha, Ramp's Theme Goes With Everything
If you've fallen behind to the point that you can't put pressure on an opponent's walker, it is pretty likely that any threat would have helped widen the gap.
Moderator Help Desk
Sales Thread
Pithing Needle. Not only does it disable the planeswalker on board but shuts off every duplicate your opponent draws.
My Trades!
My name is Surging Chaos, and I cosign this post. I couldn't have said this any better. Major kudos to you Morphling.
Pithing Needle only disables planeswalkers temporarily, and only one at a time. It's not a terrible answer or anything, but having a permanent answer to dealing with planeswalkers that is accessable to everyone would greatly ameliorate things.
But you get time to deal with that ultimate before it can happen, and you can prevent them from reaching that point. In regards to their finishing moves, planewalkers are more answerable than something like a pumped Banefire.
Moderator Help Desk
Sales Thread