Ever since the introduction of Zendikar online we’ve become familiar with the interaction between Dark Depths and Vampire Hexmage. When the power of these became known people of course strove to find a place for it in eternal formats such as Legacy. While there have been several “fringe” or “rogue” builds that use this combination one version has actually stuck and proven to be competitive. This version was created by taking the basics of an Eva Green shell and working in the Dark Depths combo. This has proven to be a strong place for this due to the fact that Eva Green decks are black heavy and can still maintain a strong deck shell in addition to adding the combo.
Since there is no Eva Depths Primer that I know of I’m going to do my best to fill in the background information based upon the creation of the parent deck, Eva Green. For those looking for more information regarding Eva Green you can find the Primer by Avatar of Shadow at this link. The earliest ancestor of Eva Green is perhaps any number of mono black builds. There has been any number of variations on mono black decks even within the big three of Suicide Black, Mono Black Aggro, and Mono Black Control. Each of those types can be further categorized down to another set of smaller variants. However this all changed over time as the most influential card was printed, Tarmogoyf. This one card has the ability to change mono colored decks forever and even the infamously mono-blue Merfolk deck has started to add green in order to run him because he is just THAT good. With such a low casting cost and such a big power level it’s easy to see why people work so hard to work him into every deck. As time passed Eva lists gained more quality cards such as Maelstrom Pulse with Shards and then Verdant Catacombs in Zendikar.
As perhaps an obvious additional note the birth of Eva Green came about when we were introduced to Vampire Hexmage in Zendikar. This gives an edge in several instances outside of Dark Depths thanks to its ability to thin things such as Planeswalkers and Engineered Explosives. Now when one takes a look at any sub-variants of Eva Depths it really comes down to with or without Living Wish. Living Wish is a card that helps enable the deck to focus more on the actual combo, but it is often left out in order to make room for solid additions to the deck that help out when your combo gets shut down.
Personally I see many appeals to running Eva Depths. First off you have the ability to pull off the infamous Legacy combo where you win before turn 4. We all know decks that do this and rumor always goes on about how often this happens (while those familiar with the format know this is often exaggerated). However, the deck is able to maintain enough strength that when or if your combo is shut down you are able to still win the game in glorious fashion. Too many times have I seen combo decks where one card gets removed or countered and it is just game over for the deck. The Eva Green shell that is provided for this allows you to get strong control through land destruction as well as hand destruction and some devastating turn one plays through Dark Ritual.
Play History:
Now this deck isn’t nearly as popular as other decks, but it has made quite a few decent showings. I’ll be working on updating this any time new listings come up. Note that I’m big into MTGO so I’m going to add in successful showings it has online as well.
Paper: Eva Depths
6th Place Showing out of 29 Players on 2/7/10 by Cocevari Igor
Eva Depths
6th Place Showing out of 71 Players on 1/24/10 by Alex de Valle
Eva Depths
4th Place Showing out of 19 Players on 12/9/09 by Rob Brews
Eva Depths
7th Place Showing out of 55 Players on 11/15/09 by Juan Antonio Alvarez
Dark Depths
7th Place Showing out of 36 Players on 12/4/09 by Frederic Touchet
Dark Depths
2nd Place Showing out of 23 Players on 1/27/10 by Enrique Llano
MTGO: Eva Depths
A 3-1 showing by dubz1337 on 4/22/10 out of 32 Players.
Eva Depths
A 3-1 showing by JustSin on 6/15/10 out of 25 Players.
(Updated as of 6/15/10)
Personal Competitive Record: 15 - 7
Card Choices:
Creatures: Tarmogoyf - What really needs to be said about this guy? He alone is the reason the deck is running green and you cannot underestimate his power especially when placed in a discard deck that will quickly fill graves and pump your goyf. He is hands down a must for a full set in any variant of the deck. Dark Confidant - This is where the relation comes back to Suicide Black. While he has the potential to cost you a lot of life you're average mana curve is very low making him a safe play. While the game isn't really won based on hand advantage for Eva decks it becomes a bit more important to Eva Depths instead of Eva Green because of your ability to draw into the combo faster. I have before kept a one land hand based solely off of a Dark Ritual into Dark Confidant plus Thoughtseize. Vampire Hexmage - The Hexmage is an important part of Eva Depths because it is obviously half of your combo. If you're running an Eva Depths list with Living Wish then you should run only three copies in your main and put the fourth in your sideboard. If you're not running the Living Wishes then you should run a full set without question. There is also some value to Vampire Hexmage when it comes to stripping down Engineered Explosives or any Planeswalker (most likely Jace). Tombstalker - This guy can be a bit questionable, but I think it's a great addition to the deck because like Tarmogoyf he can be a fatty for cheap. When you're running a set of Dark Rituals and all those fetch lands you have a lot of opportunity to get him out early. However, he is still very heavily costed for a creature in this deck. It will be rare to hit him on Dark Confidant, but doing so will cost you the game probably 85% of the time. I suggest only running 2 copies max of this card, but he's not one to be overlooked. Troll Ascetic – This is a creature that is brought in sometimes instead of Tombstalkers. The benefit here is the shroud, regeneration, and in addition to a cheaper casting cost, but there is one big problem... double green. While you do run green in the deck you're so heavy black that getting double green is not something to hold your breath over. From experience I know that you can run into trouble getting that mark and it's easier to cast a creature for 8 then for 3 with double green. Gatekeeper of Malakir - Gatekeeper is a great option for creature control. There are other options such as Shriekmaw, but the drawback of Gatekeeper doesn't cause as much issue. For the most part he'll only be a small addition to the deck as perhaps a two of, but if you're expecting to face a heavier creature environment then upping it to three is a good idea. Vampire Nighthawk - The Nighthawk is a creature that is seen more in Eva Green then Eva Depths, but you can use this as a creature option when you need the extra life gain. There is some good to it through evasion, lifegain, deathtouch, and the +1 defense, but it's only real purpose is if you're having trouble keeping your life up. This can be an issue since you lose life through fetches, Thoughtseizes, and Dark Confidants, but hey no pain no gain I say!
*** Other consideration has out to Eternal Witness, Bloodghast, and Lord of Extinction. Witness can be a nice addition, but again you can have trouble with double green (it works as a nice sideboard option when running Living Wish). Bloodghast is another o-k choice, but it just really isn't strong enough to make the grade. If it could block then I'd be all for it, but without that ability they are just so underwhelming. Lord of Extinction is another interesting choice and can be powerful with all of the discard you have in deck, but with such a heavy casting cost it is also out of place, but if you just have to have it then perhaps it can also work as a sideboard option in Wish decks.
Discard Options: Hymn to Tourach - This card is the kingpin card behind the hand control in any black deck. For a simple two mana you force your opponent to lose two cards, but even better he (or she) has 0 control over what stays and what goes. With the use of Dark Ritual you get the chance to cast not only this, but Thoughtseize as well for the ideal hand control opener. Thoughtseize - There have been several discard spells given to us at the cost of one black and each has its place. Out of all the cards out there like this Thoughtseize probably has the easiest draw back. For only 2 life you get your choice of any nonland card. The only potentially better option would be Cabal Therapy, but you have to be able to name a card correctly in order to get the most out of it.
As mentioned Cabal Therapy deserves some consideration, but there are a lot of instances where it just won't be as good as Thoughtseize. If you don't correctly name a card then you've wasted a spell and then you won't always have opportunity to flash it back. It just seems like a lesser option to Thoughtseize. Other one cost options are Duress, which only hits noncreature spells, and the newer Inquisition of Kozilek. I don't think Inquisition will have a home over Thoughtseize because the 3cc restriction is a big one. I realize there is some debate about this due to a heavy number of key Legacy spells that fit in that stipulation, but why take another chance at not being able to force an opponent to lose a card?
Other Spells: Dark Ritual - This card is so important in so many ways. Obviously it can ramp you up to early spells, but it also gives you options to keep a hand that maybe a little land shy. Some may disagree with me on this one, but I'm a believer that every mono black deck should run this as a full set because of all the potential it brings to the board. Maelstrom Pulse - When running both black and green this is a no brainer. First off it lets you remove multiple targets as long as they are the same card and second off it is almost a Vindicate and we all know how powerful that is. There are times when you may prefer this slot to be used for Krosan Grip, but I am a fan of keeping grips in the sideboard. Then if you find yourself in a situation where you want to bring in the grips you have the option to do so without removing the pulses and thus double the artifact removal. Living Wish - Now I mentioned earlier that you basically decide from the start, with or without Wish. The point of running Wish is to be able to tutor up the parts of your combo when you draw a wish. Look at it this way... in deck you have 6 combo cards (three of each piece)... by adding Living Wish you up your count to 9 (three of each piece and three "wild cards" that fill in the blank). In addition you can use Living Wish to fetch things out of your sideboard such as Wasteland, The Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale, Eternal Witness, etc. Smallpox - There are several decks in both Eva Green and Eva Depths that use Smallpox and run the deck on that fine line between the Eva and Pox. Smallpox is an interesting addition to the deck and does add that additional control aspect, but personally I think it loses a bit of power due to the lack of Sinkhole. When you use Sinkhole, Wasteland, and Smallpox you are running much closer to the control of Pox instead of Eva, looking to capitalize on the reduction of your opponent's mana sources. Snuff Out/Smother - Both of these are options to bring in as creature control. A lot of Eva Green decks prefer to use (Snuff Out) because of the free cost and you can capitalize on the fact that most creatures in Legacy aren't black. However, I personally prefer the use of Smother because there are perhaps 99% of all the important Legacy creatures that are within the bounds of that 3cc restriction. Other options have been taken through Edicts, but I'm not a fan of non-targeted removal outside of Gatekeeper of Malakirs because you get a body to go with it.
**This section will be updated as needed. Last update 6/15/10.**
Additional Card Information:
Why Dark Confidant?
Unlike Eva Green, Depths lists run Dark Confidants. This is doable because of the overall low mana curve of the deck and is done so in order to draw into the combo pieces faster. Even Eva Green players will acknowledge that sometimes you run into a point where you hit top deck mode. In relation to all the life you may lose through Dark Confidants and Thoughtseizes decks will bring in Vampire Nighthawk to gain some life back.
Maelstrom Pulse or Pernicious Deed?
The answer to this is completely situational so I'll offer my opinion. To me I think Pernicious Deed is better off as a sideboard option for decks such as Merfolk perhaps. I say this because Eva Depths runs a relatively low mana curve and when you set off Pernicious Deed you're going to wipe your whole board 90% of the time. Now if you understand this and know your meta will need them main deck then absolutely make the change. I've just found personally Maelstrom Pulse is more then enough to answer what you'll come across in Game 1s.
**This is a deck ran by Rob Brews that brings in the heavy draw of Life from the Loam and cycling lands. This is also an example of Wishless Eva Depths.**
**This is the list I ran online for a 3-1 record. This is an online version without Living Wish, notice the lack of Sinkhole, after lots of testing and playing.**
Match-Ups:
ANT - Slightly Unfavorable
The key here is probably getting off a lot of early discard so you slow them down to a crawl. However, if you're running a deck that is a bit lighter on discard then you'll run into trouble with several dead cards such as Smother. You do get some advantage because they usually don't have any sideboard answer for the Dark Depths combo.
Goblins - Favorable
This can be a good match, but you have to be aware of one very important card, Warren Weirding. This is the biggest answer that Goblin decks have for the Dark Depths combo if you're not thinking about it. However, you do manage to gain an advantage with sideboarding thanks to Engineered Plague. You can also bring in Krosan Grip to deal with AEther Vials, but it really isn't important. With early discard and lots of creature hate main deck you can usually win this game.
Zoo - Slightly Favorable
Like Goblins you can have a strong match against Zoo thanks to the maindeck use of creature kill. However, you have to be careful because you are close to Suicide Black and do a lot of self damage. Sideboarding isn't a great choice here, but you may at least switch out a Thoughtseize or two for Krosan Grips against Umezawa's Jitte. EDIT: Ok so I've been told several times now I'm incorrect and that Zoo should be unfavorable, but I've never had a big issue with Zoo thanks to heavy creature control main deck, but figured it's worth mentioning.
LandStill - ???
I was unable to find someone to test against LandStill.
Death & Taxes - Highly Unfavorable
Now this game is winnable, but you have a lot of obstacles to overcome. First off you need to get rid of Karakas because it alone can deal with your 20/20 token. Next you have issues with Mangara of Corondor because it can remove everything. Then you get Swords to Plowshares to remove your token not to mention Oblivion Ring. Oh and then there is Flickerwisp as well. Death & Taxes is "no joke" and there is so much in the deck that totally shuts you down. The discard helps in the early game, but you'll still find yourself struggling in game 1. After that you get a bit of extra help by bringing in Krosan Grips and Pithing Needles to deal with AEther Vials or Mishra's Factory. I managed to get off a turn 2 Dark Depths only to run into Swords to Plowshares and if you think Death & Taxes can't do fast damage due to it being like White Weenie you're very wrong.
Reanimator - 5050
Now a big part of how you match against Reanimator is based on what you're running as far as hate goes. Any strong Reanimator deck with a good draw will win Game 1 against you almost 100% of the time. The key is after boarding to be able to find the hate when you need it. With my first version of the deck the two Extirpates just weren't always as strong as I needed them to be against Reanimator. You can win games through hitting Reanimation spells with discard, but the bottom line here is Iona, Shield of Emeria for black equals gg because you can't deal with it at all.
Dredge - 5050
This match is a lot like Reanimator where it depends on how things go after sideboarding. One thing I have been able to do against Dredge is use Maelstrom Pulse on the wide army of Zombie tokens thanks to the fact that several recent decks no longer run Flame-Kin Zealot. Discard isn't a great thing in this match because Dredge wants everything in the grave so all you're doing is assisting. The downside is that you can't just side out all your discard spells so you may just deal with a bit of wasted card room in the deck.
AggroLoam - ???
I was unable to find an AggroLoam deck to test against.
New Horizons - Slightly Unfavorable
Now New Horizons provides quite the heavy control base and has both Stifle as well as Swords to Plowshares. It isn't unwinnable however because if you get good discard and a fast draw you can still combo off in the early game. When sideboarding against this deck its important to know that the mana base of this deck is very fragile. So if you're running a version where you can recur Wasteland through Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds then you will be able to wreck them since they are heavy duals and then Wastelands as well as Horizon Canopy. Messing with your mana base is an important part of the New Horizons' strategy so if you gain an advantage there as well by reducing their effectiveness as land control through those additions. Keep an eye out for some lists use Karakas or Meddling Mage and those cause issues for Dark Depths as well. Another side option is to bring in Chokes, but until we get back Sinkhole it's hard to mess around with their mana as effectively as they do to us.
Merfolk - 5050
This is another tough call. I almost want to put it in the Slightly Favorable category, but it can be troublesome because of all the counters. Like I mentioned earlier you'd be surprised how Cursecatcher can really screw you up when you have to wait that extra turn to cast your early game spells. Where you get some advantage is that you have a lot in your sideboard to help you out. You have the potential to bring in Krosan Grip, Engineered Plague (though it's not so good when every creature is a lord), and Choke. There is some debate over whether Choke or Engineered Plague is a stronger choice against Merfolk, but you do have the potential to use both.
Dream Halls - Favorable
Now I've done some testing against Dream Halls and while it combos off you should be able to shut it down before that point. The key here is your discard again because if you can remove the key cards from your opponent's hand he's stuck. You do have to keep an eye out for Force of Will, but an early Hymn to Tourach that is hit with Force of Will is still a total loss of two cards from your opponent's hand. After sideboarding you want to make sure to bring in Krosan Grips to deal with a Dream Halls that might stick.
RDW/Burn/Sligh - Unfavorable
This is a pretty bad match up if you're not running a version with Kitchen Finks or Vampire Nighthawk for extra life gain. This is also a problem for Suicide Black because the bottom line is you're spending a lot of life between fetches, Dark Confidants, and Thoughtseizes. If you use Thoughtseize to remove a Burst Lightning spell you're just casting it for him. While lowering your life it makes it that much easier for Burn to finish you off. Unfortunately when missing white you don't get a chance for sideboard hate like Circle of Protection: Red to handle it.
CounterTop - Slightly Unfavorable
This can be a tough match because CounterTop has so much control to it outside of Counterbalance. Some discard early can be helpful, but you'll still find things like Stifle or Swords to Plowshares in your opponent's deck, which limits the Dark Depths combo. Obviously you'll want to bring in Krosan Grip as another answer for Counterbalance not to mention the only way to get rid of Sensei's Divining Top. Do note however, if you aren't aware, despite the fact that Krosan Grip is split second you still trigger Counterbalance when you cast it so there's a chance it could be countered.
Eldrazi Show - Favorable
After having faced the Show and Tell deck with Emrakul I have to say that I've found this to be a pretty favorable match. With the discard element you can peel away the combo pieces and the best answer to Emrakul is Gatekeeper of Malakir, which you'll want to make sure you hold onto for this situation or if they bring in Progenitus. As far as sideboarding I bring in Krosan Grip to deal with Sensei's Divining Top as well as Choke since they run heavy blues and Faerie Macabre as an reply for when Emrakul hits the grave.
F.A.Q.
What is the benefit to running Eva Depths over Eva Green?
The reason to run Eva Depths instead of a more traditional Eva Green build is simply to have an option to speed up the game through the combo win. The deck also maintains a strong aggro base when the combo is removed or not drawn.
Your list is running 24 lands andDark Rituals, isn't that a bit much?
At first this may seem like a lot of land/mana, but the truth of the matter is that you're usually running 3-4 copies of Dark Depths, which isn't a mana producing land. In addition to that I personally run 6 fetch lands, which also aren't mana producers. The Dark Rituals are incredibly important when looking to bypass things like Daze or just getting off great turn 1 plays.
Maelstrom Pulse or Pernicious Deed?
The answer to this is completely situational so I'll offer my opinion. To me I think Pernicious Deed is better off as a sideboard option for decks such as Merfolk perhaps. I say this because Eva Depths runs a relatively low mana curve and when you set off Pernicious Deed you're going to wipe your whole board 90% of the time. Now if you understand this and know your meta will need them main deck then absolutely make the change. I've just found personally Maelstrom Pulse is more then enough to answer what you'll come across in Game 1s.
Wow, all this work and nobody has posted anything? Terribly unfortunate.
What would you say is the main benefit of playing Eva Depths over a dedicated disruption into-beating-face strategy, similar to how Eva Green plays?
Could you comment on some of the card choices in the decks you posted? For instance, I notice all decks posted run Confidants, where Eva Green does not. What about Maelstrom Pulse vs. Pernicious Deed? Wishboard expansion/inclusion? The inclusion of Top?
It seems this deck can play both aggro and combo quite well, but doesn't necessarily excel at either one. While this deck has resiliency in the form of recursion/wishboard, it also means it's probably going to be slower than the average combo deck. In this, it relies on it's disruption quite a bit. I notice that you don't have any sideboard for combo. In your playtesting, has 3 Thoughtseize and 4 Hymn to Tourachs been enough? I'm not really worried about the aggro aspect as Eva Depths still plays almost the same beats that Eva Green does.
Thanks for the replies guys lemme do my best to answer your questions...
@Uncoordinated: I appreciate you getting the ball rolling here lol In my opinion the advantage to running this over a traditional Eva Green list is the fact that you have an opportunity to get a faster win. While Eva isn't really a "slow" deck you add the potential to get off the Dark Depths combo on turn 2 and if unchallenged then you win on turn 3. I've played some time with Eva Green and can't say I've ever managed a win off it on turn 3. In my opinion it is nice to have the additional threat that your opponent has to watch out for and then even with it disrupted you can still win.
If you give me a little while I'll update this to add some more information about those card choices you mentioned.
You'd be surprised how often you can get Dark Depths off on turn 2-4 thanks to Dark Rituals, but you do have to use Thoughtseize effectively to make sure you clear out any issues. In playing I have found that there are several times where I do want that fourth Thoughtseize, but I haven't found a way to really rearrange for it. I've considered dropping the Umezawa's Jitte because they aren't always helpful, but I'm not sure what I'd add in addition to the Thoughtseize.
@Practical Joke: I'm sorry you feel that way? lol I'm not basing this off of MWS my experience comes from many games out of MTGO Tournament games. I'm sure people will have something to say about how its different then paper, but that's an argument not worth either of our time.
You're probably right I could amend ANT to Slightly Unfavorable because my list is short one discard spell, but when you run a list with heavy discard you tare apart their hand and can beat them down before they can recover.
As far as Reanimator is concerned if I was going to change it I'd go more on the favorable side. I originally ran a list with Extirpate as my sideboard option for grave hate, but once I switched to Faerie Macabre I haven't lost a match to Reanimator. Every win has been 2-1 because like I said it's hard to win game 1. I plan to leave it as 5050 for now, but over time if I do notice more losses to Reanimator I'll make a change.
@Lorgalis: Thank you I appreciate the feedback. There are some struggles to this deck and yes there are a lot of things out of especially Death & Taxes that answer the Dark Depths win, but what I was trying to convey is that even when the combo gets shut down you still can win through your aggro options. If they Swords to Plowshares your 20/20 then you're now up to 40 life so it's really not so bad. Unlike other combo decks this one has the ability to survive when the combo is shut down.
Yes I have played Eva Green and enjoyed both. It is a tough call at times between the two, but I have to say personally I prefer this deck. The reason for this is because you have the ability, as I mentioned earlier, to win by turn 3 or 4 through Dark Depths, but the deck isn't so reliable on the combo.
I tried a version of this deck out at a local tournament, and the combo is nice, but dit is efinitely not needed for the win. Tombstalker is a bomb and can end games by itself (especially when people use all of their cards trying to stop the 20/20).
This deck is awkward because it wants to be control against aggro and aggro against control, without being really able to switch gears very easily.
Dystopia as a side board option. Good against new horizons and death and taxes. You would have to side out goyfs or at least hold them back until your opponents board was wiped. Also good against zoo
I apologize for a late response on these replies, but have been settling into a new job, but thank you all for the replies and keeping this primer from dropping out of sight (which I am concerned it will lol)
@Capt: Yes you've pretty much nailed how the deck runs. It definitely can be considered almost a kitchen sink like deck because it has a pretty nice balance of both elements. I do think Tombstalker makes for a great ending outside of the Depths combo, but it is also not necessary. The version I am currently running doesn't use them, but can still maintain the enough damage for the win beyond your combo.
@Elminister: Thanks for the compliment, I've done my best to format it in a way that can keep things clear and concise. I did add a section for card discussion under "Additional Card Information", but allow me to quote it to make it easier to find...
Maelstrom Pulse or Pernicious Deed?
The answer to this is completely situational so I'll offer my opinion. To me I think Pernicious Deed is better off as a sideboard option for decks such as Merfolk perhaps. I say this because Eva Depths runs a relatively low mana curve and when you set off Pernicious Deed you're going to wipe your whole board 90% of the time. Now if you understand this and know your meta will need them main deck then absolutely make the change. I've just found personally Maelstrom Pulse is more then enough to answer what you'll come across in Game 1s.
**This has also now been added to the F.A.Q. section at the bottom.**
@Clownbaby: Dystopia does hold some potential for a decent sideboard choice. Since the deck has roots in Suicide Black anyone running it should be OK with the idea that you're going to take self damage in the forms of Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant. That being said a card with a life upkeep isn't such a shock, but I would be worried about running the three together especially since that upkeep cost is cumulative. This is where Perish comes into play, however it does not help you really against Death & Taxes. Given the choice I'd personally bring in Pernicious Deeds instead because they give you options beyond color and creature limitations.
Not sure if there is enough white out there besides Death and Taxes to justify running gloom. It is funny to see the look on their face when you dark ritual it in on turn one though. I suppose it could be decent against white stax also
Edit: maybe against enchantress also and Mighty Quin
I'd much rather stack my sideboard with better options. I've managed to 2-0 a Death & Taxes recently so yes it's a bad match, but you still can manage with things like Pernicious Deed. It is one of those harder matches, but not so ruinous that I'd consider slighting myself against other more popular decks by being sideboard specific.
I run the depths with 4 Living Wish mainboard. I also run a singleton of karakas in my sideboard along with a single wasteland. This gives me nice outs even game one to a resolved Iona naming black or an Emrakul that was show and tell'd in. It is often fun to legend rule your opponents Karakas away with your own out of the board, and wasteland is almost a must to get rid of pesky opponents wastelands or Maze of Ith.
At the moment, I like maelstrom pulse better than pernicious deed because of the rise of humility lately(at least in the area I play due to the saturation of aggro decks). 3 is easier on the mana than 3 than 4. I feel like when I drop deed to early, it just gets eaten by a quasali pridemage.
Hrm, I see this and can't help but think this would fit in perfectly with the new rock style decks with Knight of the Reliquary (also known as Dark Horizons).
If you're playing living wish, it becomes quite easy to grab a hexmage..
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Knight of the Reliquary could certainly take the place of hyppies or nighthawks, just not sure if it would justify the manabase making it much harder to play turn 2 hymn/hexmage. It would allow the cut to 2 maindeck dark depths, and could also open up a few qasali pridemage in the main/sideboard for enchant and artifact hate. Could be named Onyx or Dark Rock or even Goth Rock or The Cult.
Anyways.....back to the deck. Still no feedback on Hyppie vs. Nighthawk?
Also, I am having trouble beating burn. Any suggestions?
I've been playing around with ideas like this for awhile now, the current meta seems almost perfect for this sort of deck, especially if you can mix it into dark horizons, but I haven't found the right balance yet.
On Hyppie vs Nighthawk : It's a meta choice. If your meta is aggro, nighthawk is amazing, especially if you play with jitte too. If you've got a control/combo meta, hyppie is much better. Hyppie can also swing things like the ANT match-up into your favor, as it prevents them from ever effectively refilling their hand after you initially rip it apart.
In Eva Green, I've been testing the creature base, and found that in my meta, I really don't like tombstalker that much, and Nantuko shade is pretty sub-par and too mana-hungry, by cutting the shades and reducing the tombstalker count, it's allowed me to run both nighthawk and hyppie and still have room for gatekeepers, though not in full sets. They may take longer to win the game for you, but they can really shut down match-ups and allow you to stabilize early.
A new living wish target for the deck should be a single Phyrexian Revoker on the sideboard. I feel like the thrun, the last troll could also be a sideboard target for an alt win con. He's not always going to be as good as tombstalker as a bomb from the board, but the control player might let the wish resolve thinking they can counter the threat you are going to find.
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A Primer By: JustSin
Introduction:
Ever since the introduction of Zendikar online we’ve become familiar with the interaction between Dark Depths and Vampire Hexmage. When the power of these became known people of course strove to find a place for it in eternal formats such as Legacy. While there have been several “fringe” or “rogue” builds that use this combination one version has actually stuck and proven to be competitive. This version was created by taking the basics of an Eva Green shell and working in the Dark Depths combo. This has proven to be a strong place for this due to the fact that Eva Green decks are black heavy and can still maintain a strong deck shell in addition to adding the combo.
Since there is no Eva Depths Primer that I know of I’m going to do my best to fill in the background information based upon the creation of the parent deck, Eva Green. For those looking for more information regarding Eva Green you can find the Primer by Avatar of Shadow at this link. The earliest ancestor of Eva Green is perhaps any number of mono black builds. There has been any number of variations on mono black decks even within the big three of Suicide Black, Mono Black Aggro, and Mono Black Control. Each of those types can be further categorized down to another set of smaller variants. However this all changed over time as the most influential card was printed, Tarmogoyf. This one card has the ability to change mono colored decks forever and even the infamously mono-blue Merfolk deck has started to add green in order to run him because he is just THAT good. With such a low casting cost and such a big power level it’s easy to see why people work so hard to work him into every deck. As time passed Eva lists gained more quality cards such as Maelstrom Pulse with Shards and then Verdant Catacombs in Zendikar.
As perhaps an obvious additional note the birth of Eva Green came about when we were introduced to Vampire Hexmage in Zendikar. This gives an edge in several instances outside of Dark Depths thanks to its ability to thin things such as Planeswalkers and Engineered Explosives. Now when one takes a look at any sub-variants of Eva Depths it really comes down to with or without Living Wish. Living Wish is a card that helps enable the deck to focus more on the actual combo, but it is often left out in order to make room for solid additions to the deck that help out when your combo gets shut down.
Personally I see many appeals to running Eva Depths. First off you have the ability to pull off the infamous Legacy combo where you win before turn 4. We all know decks that do this and rumor always goes on about how often this happens (while those familiar with the format know this is often exaggerated). However, the deck is able to maintain enough strength that when or if your combo is shut down you are able to still win the game in glorious fashion. Too many times have I seen combo decks where one card gets removed or countered and it is just game over for the deck. The Eva Green shell that is provided for this allows you to get strong control through land destruction as well as hand destruction and some devastating turn one plays through Dark Ritual.
Play History:
Now this deck isn’t nearly as popular as other decks, but it has made quite a few decent showings. I’ll be working on updating this any time new listings come up. Note that I’m big into MTGO so I’m going to add in successful showings it has online as well.
Paper:
Eva Depths
6th Place Showing out of 29 Players on 2/7/10 by Cocevari Igor
Eva Depths
6th Place Showing out of 71 Players on 1/24/10 by Alex de Valle
Eva Depths
4th Place Showing out of 19 Players on 12/9/09 by Rob Brews
Eva Depths
7th Place Showing out of 55 Players on 11/15/09 by Juan Antonio Alvarez
Dark Depths
7th Place Showing out of 36 Players on 12/4/09 by Frederic Touchet
Dark Depths
2nd Place Showing out of 23 Players on 1/27/10 by Enrique Llano
MTGO:
Eva Depths
A 3-1 showing by dubz1337 on 4/22/10 out of 32 Players.
Eva Depths
A 3-1 showing by JustSin on 6/15/10 out of 25 Players.
(Updated as of 6/15/10)
Personal Competitive Record: 15 - 7
Card Choices:
Creatures:
Tarmogoyf - What really needs to be said about this guy? He alone is the reason the deck is running green and you cannot underestimate his power especially when placed in a discard deck that will quickly fill graves and pump your goyf. He is hands down a must for a full set in any variant of the deck.
Dark Confidant - This is where the relation comes back to Suicide Black. While he has the potential to cost you a lot of life you're average mana curve is very low making him a safe play. While the game isn't really won based on hand advantage for Eva decks it becomes a bit more important to Eva Depths instead of Eva Green because of your ability to draw into the combo faster. I have before kept a one land hand based solely off of a Dark Ritual into Dark Confidant plus Thoughtseize.
Vampire Hexmage - The Hexmage is an important part of Eva Depths because it is obviously half of your combo. If you're running an Eva Depths list with Living Wish then you should run only three copies in your main and put the fourth in your sideboard. If you're not running the Living Wishes then you should run a full set without question. There is also some value to Vampire Hexmage when it comes to stripping down Engineered Explosives or any Planeswalker (most likely Jace).
Tombstalker - This guy can be a bit questionable, but I think it's a great addition to the deck because like Tarmogoyf he can be a fatty for cheap. When you're running a set of Dark Rituals and all those fetch lands you have a lot of opportunity to get him out early. However, he is still very heavily costed for a creature in this deck. It will be rare to hit him on Dark Confidant, but doing so will cost you the game probably 85% of the time. I suggest only running 2 copies max of this card, but he's not one to be overlooked.
Troll Ascetic – This is a creature that is brought in sometimes instead of Tombstalkers. The benefit here is the shroud, regeneration, and in addition to a cheaper casting cost, but there is one big problem... double green. While you do run green in the deck you're so heavy black that getting double green is not something to hold your breath over. From experience I know that you can run into trouble getting that mark and it's easier to cast a creature for 8 then for 3 with double green.
Gatekeeper of Malakir - Gatekeeper is a great option for creature control. There are other options such as Shriekmaw, but the drawback of Gatekeeper doesn't cause as much issue. For the most part he'll only be a small addition to the deck as perhaps a two of, but if you're expecting to face a heavier creature environment then upping it to three is a good idea.
Vampire Nighthawk - The Nighthawk is a creature that is seen more in Eva Green then Eva Depths, but you can use this as a creature option when you need the extra life gain. There is some good to it through evasion, lifegain, deathtouch, and the +1 defense, but it's only real purpose is if you're having trouble keeping your life up. This can be an issue since you lose life through fetches, Thoughtseizes, and Dark Confidants, but hey no pain no gain I say!
*** Other consideration has out to Eternal Witness, Bloodghast, and Lord of Extinction. Witness can be a nice addition, but again you can have trouble with double green (it works as a nice sideboard option when running Living Wish). Bloodghast is another o-k choice, but it just really isn't strong enough to make the grade. If it could block then I'd be all for it, but without that ability they are just so underwhelming. Lord of Extinction is another interesting choice and can be powerful with all of the discard you have in deck, but with such a heavy casting cost it is also out of place, but if you just have to have it then perhaps it can also work as a sideboard option in Wish decks.
Discard Options:
Hymn to Tourach - This card is the kingpin card behind the hand control in any black deck. For a simple two mana you force your opponent to lose two cards, but even better he (or she) has 0 control over what stays and what goes. With the use of Dark Ritual you get the chance to cast not only this, but Thoughtseize as well for the ideal hand control opener.
Thoughtseize - There have been several discard spells given to us at the cost of one black and each has its place. Out of all the cards out there like this Thoughtseize probably has the easiest draw back. For only 2 life you get your choice of any nonland card. The only potentially better option would be Cabal Therapy, but you have to be able to name a card correctly in order to get the most out of it.
As mentioned Cabal Therapy deserves some consideration, but there are a lot of instances where it just won't be as good as Thoughtseize. If you don't correctly name a card then you've wasted a spell and then you won't always have opportunity to flash it back. It just seems like a lesser option to Thoughtseize. Other one cost options are Duress, which only hits noncreature spells, and the newer Inquisition of Kozilek. I don't think Inquisition will have a home over Thoughtseize because the 3cc restriction is a big one. I realize there is some debate about this due to a heavy number of key Legacy spells that fit in that stipulation, but why take another chance at not being able to force an opponent to lose a card?
Other Spells:
Dark Ritual - This card is so important in so many ways. Obviously it can ramp you up to early spells, but it also gives you options to keep a hand that maybe a little land shy. Some may disagree with me on this one, but I'm a believer that every mono black deck should run this as a full set because of all the potential it brings to the board.
Maelstrom Pulse - When running both black and green this is a no brainer. First off it lets you remove multiple targets as long as they are the same card and second off it is almost a Vindicate and we all know how powerful that is. There are times when you may prefer this slot to be used for Krosan Grip, but I am a fan of keeping grips in the sideboard. Then if you find yourself in a situation where you want to bring in the grips you have the option to do so without removing the pulses and thus double the artifact removal.
Living Wish - Now I mentioned earlier that you basically decide from the start, with or without Wish. The point of running Wish is to be able to tutor up the parts of your combo when you draw a wish. Look at it this way... in deck you have 6 combo cards (three of each piece)... by adding Living Wish you up your count to 9 (three of each piece and three "wild cards" that fill in the blank). In addition you can use Living Wish to fetch things out of your sideboard such as Wasteland, The Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale, Eternal Witness, etc.
Smallpox - There are several decks in both Eva Green and Eva Depths that use Smallpox and run the deck on that fine line between the Eva and Pox. Smallpox is an interesting addition to the deck and does add that additional control aspect, but personally I think it loses a bit of power due to the lack of Sinkhole. When you use Sinkhole, Wasteland, and Smallpox you are running much closer to the control of Pox instead of Eva, looking to capitalize on the reduction of your opponent's mana sources.
Snuff Out/Smother - Both of these are options to bring in as creature control. A lot of Eva Green decks prefer to use (Snuff Out) because of the free cost and you can capitalize on the fact that most creatures in Legacy aren't black. However, I personally prefer the use of Smother because there are perhaps 99% of all the important Legacy creatures that are within the bounds of that 3cc restriction. Other options have been taken through Edicts, but I'm not a fan of non-targeted removal outside of Gatekeeper of Malakirs because you get a body to go with it.
Other Considerations:
Life from the Loam - Intended as a recurring option for your Dark Depths if removed.
Pernicious Deed - A fantastic mass removal option, I mean look how effective LandStill can be.
Crucible of Worlds - Another choice for bringing back lands.
Umezawa's Jitte - A plus against an aggro heavy meta (usually found in the sideboard).
Sensei's Divining Top - A decent addition in combination with Dark Confidant, but I'm not sold.
Sideboard Considerations:
Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus/Faerie Macabre - Not much question here, all are good options for grave removal.
Chalice of the Void - This can be an important answer for things like Stifle or Swords to Plowshares, which are killer against Eva Depths.
Leyline of the Void/Extirpate - More grave hate.
Choke - This brings about some debate in Merfolk over using Choke or Engineered Plague, but it's a good way to slow blue control.
Pithing Needle - This is a big answer in today's meta... from AEther Vial, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Pernicious Deed, Mutavault, etc.
Engineered Plague - A huge answer to tribal based decks such as Goblins, Elves, and Merfolk.
Perish - A good answer for creature heavy decks that use a lot of green.
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - You can use this as a prevention against creature heavy decks.
**This section will be updated as needed. Last update 6/15/10.**
Additional Card Information:
Why Dark Confidant?
Unlike Eva Green, Depths lists run Dark Confidants. This is doable because of the overall low mana curve of the deck and is done so in order to draw into the combo pieces faster. Even Eva Green players will acknowledge that sometimes you run into a point where you hit top deck mode. In relation to all the life you may lose through Dark Confidants and Thoughtseizes decks will bring in Vampire Nighthawk to gain some life back.
Maelstrom Pulse or Pernicious Deed?
The answer to this is completely situational so I'll offer my opinion. To me I think Pernicious Deed is better off as a sideboard option for decks such as Merfolk perhaps. I say this because Eva Depths runs a relatively low mana curve and when you set off Pernicious Deed you're going to wipe your whole board 90% of the time. Now if you understand this and know your meta will need them main deck then absolutely make the change. I've just found personally Maelstrom Pulse is more then enough to answer what you'll come across in Game 1s.
Why would you use Sensei's Divining Top?
Sensei's Divining Top is an addition made entirely for Dark Confidant in order to rearrange your draw to take minimum damage.
Decks:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vampire Hexmage
Other Spells:
3 Snuff Out
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Grim Discovery
4 Living Wish
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Dark Depths
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacomb
3 Wasteland
1 Tombstalker
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Yixilid Jailer
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Leyling of the Void
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Dark Depths
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Wasteland
**This is a deck version by Juan Antonio Alvarez that showcases the use of Smallpox in an Eva Depths list.**
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vampire Hexmage
3 Vampire Nighthawk
Other Spells:
2 Grim Discovery
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Living Wish
4 Sinkhole
3 Thoughtseize
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Umezawa’s Jitte
4 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Dark Depths
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Vampire Hexmage
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Choke
2 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Dark Depths
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
**This version was ran by Cocevari Igor and showcases a generic, non-Pox version of Eva Depths + Living Wish.**
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
1 Troll Ascetic
4 Vampire Hexmage
Other Spells:
4 Dark Ritual
2 Putrefy
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Life from the Loam
3 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
2 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
2 Lord of Extinction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Extirpate
1 Grave Consequences
2 Krosan Grip
2 Damnation
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Chalice of the Void
**This is a deck ran by Rob Brews that brings in the heavy draw of Life from the Loam and cycling lands. This is also an example of Wishless Eva Depths.**
4 Dark Confidant
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vampire Hexmage
3 Vampire Nighthawk
Other Spells:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Smother
3 Thoughtseize
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
4 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
2 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
4 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Choke
3 Engineered Plague
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Pithing Needle
**This is the list I ran online for a 3-1 record. This is an online version without Living Wish, notice the lack of Sinkhole, after lots of testing and playing.**
Match-Ups:
ANT - Slightly Unfavorable
The key here is probably getting off a lot of early discard so you slow them down to a crawl. However, if you're running a deck that is a bit lighter on discard then you'll run into trouble with several dead cards such as Smother. You do get some advantage because they usually don't have any sideboard answer for the Dark Depths combo.
Goblins - Favorable
This can be a good match, but you have to be aware of one very important card, Warren Weirding. This is the biggest answer that Goblin decks have for the Dark Depths combo if you're not thinking about it. However, you do manage to gain an advantage with sideboarding thanks to Engineered Plague. You can also bring in Krosan Grip to deal with AEther Vials, but it really isn't important. With early discard and lots of creature hate main deck you can usually win this game.
Zoo - Slightly Favorable
Like Goblins you can have a strong match against Zoo thanks to the maindeck use of creature kill. However, you have to be careful because you are close to Suicide Black and do a lot of self damage. Sideboarding isn't a great choice here, but you may at least switch out a Thoughtseize or two for Krosan Grips against Umezawa's Jitte. EDIT: Ok so I've been told several times now I'm incorrect and that Zoo should be unfavorable, but I've never had a big issue with Zoo thanks to heavy creature control main deck, but figured it's worth mentioning.
LandStill - ???
I was unable to find someone to test against LandStill.
Death & Taxes - Highly Unfavorable
Now this game is winnable, but you have a lot of obstacles to overcome. First off you need to get rid of Karakas because it alone can deal with your 20/20 token. Next you have issues with Mangara of Corondor because it can remove everything. Then you get Swords to Plowshares to remove your token not to mention Oblivion Ring. Oh and then there is Flickerwisp as well. Death & Taxes is "no joke" and there is so much in the deck that totally shuts you down. The discard helps in the early game, but you'll still find yourself struggling in game 1. After that you get a bit of extra help by bringing in Krosan Grips and Pithing Needles to deal with AEther Vials or Mishra's Factory. I managed to get off a turn 2 Dark Depths only to run into Swords to Plowshares and if you think Death & Taxes can't do fast damage due to it being like White Weenie you're very wrong.
Reanimator - 5050
Now a big part of how you match against Reanimator is based on what you're running as far as hate goes. Any strong Reanimator deck with a good draw will win Game 1 against you almost 100% of the time. The key is after boarding to be able to find the hate when you need it. With my first version of the deck the two Extirpates just weren't always as strong as I needed them to be against Reanimator. You can win games through hitting Reanimation spells with discard, but the bottom line here is Iona, Shield of Emeria for black equals gg because you can't deal with it at all.
Dredge - 5050
This match is a lot like Reanimator where it depends on how things go after sideboarding. One thing I have been able to do against Dredge is use Maelstrom Pulse on the wide army of Zombie tokens thanks to the fact that several recent decks no longer run Flame-Kin Zealot. Discard isn't a great thing in this match because Dredge wants everything in the grave so all you're doing is assisting. The downside is that you can't just side out all your discard spells so you may just deal with a bit of wasted card room in the deck.
AggroLoam - ???
I was unable to find an AggroLoam deck to test against.
New Horizons - Slightly Unfavorable
Now New Horizons provides quite the heavy control base and has both Stifle as well as Swords to Plowshares. It isn't unwinnable however because if you get good discard and a fast draw you can still combo off in the early game. When sideboarding against this deck its important to know that the mana base of this deck is very fragile. So if you're running a version where you can recur Wasteland through Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds then you will be able to wreck them since they are heavy duals and then Wastelands as well as Horizon Canopy. Messing with your mana base is an important part of the New Horizons' strategy so if you gain an advantage there as well by reducing their effectiveness as land control through those additions. Keep an eye out for some lists use Karakas or Meddling Mage and those cause issues for Dark Depths as well. Another side option is to bring in Chokes, but until we get back Sinkhole it's hard to mess around with their mana as effectively as they do to us.
Merfolk - 5050
This is another tough call. I almost want to put it in the Slightly Favorable category, but it can be troublesome because of all the counters. Like I mentioned earlier you'd be surprised how Cursecatcher can really screw you up when you have to wait that extra turn to cast your early game spells. Where you get some advantage is that you have a lot in your sideboard to help you out. You have the potential to bring in Krosan Grip, Engineered Plague (though it's not so good when every creature is a lord), and Choke. There is some debate over whether Choke or Engineered Plague is a stronger choice against Merfolk, but you do have the potential to use both.
Dream Halls - Favorable
Now I've done some testing against Dream Halls and while it combos off you should be able to shut it down before that point. The key here is your discard again because if you can remove the key cards from your opponent's hand he's stuck. You do have to keep an eye out for Force of Will, but an early Hymn to Tourach that is hit with Force of Will is still a total loss of two cards from your opponent's hand. After sideboarding you want to make sure to bring in Krosan Grips to deal with a Dream Halls that might stick.
RDW/Burn/Sligh - Unfavorable
This is a pretty bad match up if you're not running a version with Kitchen Finks or Vampire Nighthawk for extra life gain. This is also a problem for Suicide Black because the bottom line is you're spending a lot of life between fetches, Dark Confidants, and Thoughtseizes. If you use Thoughtseize to remove a Burst Lightning spell you're just casting it for him. While lowering your life it makes it that much easier for Burn to finish you off. Unfortunately when missing white you don't get a chance for sideboard hate like Circle of Protection: Red to handle it.
CounterTop - Slightly Unfavorable
This can be a tough match because CounterTop has so much control to it outside of Counterbalance. Some discard early can be helpful, but you'll still find things like Stifle or Swords to Plowshares in your opponent's deck, which limits the Dark Depths combo. Obviously you'll want to bring in Krosan Grip as another answer for Counterbalance not to mention the only way to get rid of Sensei's Divining Top. Do note however, if you aren't aware, despite the fact that Krosan Grip is split second you still trigger Counterbalance when you cast it so there's a chance it could be countered.
Eldrazi Show - Favorable
After having faced the Show and Tell deck with Emrakul I have to say that I've found this to be a pretty favorable match. With the discard element you can peel away the combo pieces and the best answer to Emrakul is Gatekeeper of Malakir, which you'll want to make sure you hold onto for this situation or if they bring in Progenitus. As far as sideboarding I bring in Krosan Grip to deal with Sensei's Divining Top as well as Choke since they run heavy blues and Faerie Macabre as an reply for when Emrakul hits the grave.
F.A.Q.
What is the benefit to running Eva Depths over Eva Green?
The reason to run Eva Depths instead of a more traditional Eva Green build is simply to have an option to speed up the game through the combo win. The deck also maintains a strong aggro base when the combo is removed or not drawn.
Your list is running 24 lands and Dark Rituals, isn't that a bit much?
At first this may seem like a lot of land/mana, but the truth of the matter is that you're usually running 3-4 copies of Dark Depths, which isn't a mana producing land. In addition to that I personally run 6 fetch lands, which also aren't mana producers. The Dark Rituals are incredibly important when looking to bypass things like Daze or just getting off great turn 1 plays.
Maelstrom Pulse or Pernicious Deed?
The answer to this is completely situational so I'll offer my opinion. To me I think Pernicious Deed is better off as a sideboard option for decks such as Merfolk perhaps. I say this because Eva Depths runs a relatively low mana curve and when you set off Pernicious Deed you're going to wipe your whole board 90% of the time. Now if you understand this and know your meta will need them main deck then absolutely make the change. I've just found personally Maelstrom Pulse is more then enough to answer what you'll come across in Game 1s.
Additional Reading:
* Eva Green Primer by: Avatar of Shadow
* Exploring the Depths by: JustSin
**Version last updated on 7/2/10**
Update Log:
- Added Eldrazi Show Matchup
- Changed ANT Matchup, Added Additional Card Info, Added FAQ, Added Additional Reading Section
- Added Pulse vs. Deed to F.A.Q., Added Personal Competitive Record
Deck List:
BMBCB
UBUB Control/TeachingsBU
Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!
Classic
BPoxB
Legacy
GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG
Monthly Academy Showcase!
An Introduction to Competitive Pauper! *Updated*
Pauper Meta Analysis & What Wizards Left Out!
Found at MTGO Academy!! Same Great Series, Same Great Content, Great New Home!! (yes that is me shamelessly trolling for more readers :))
Check me out on Twitter & Get a little MTGO Therapy
What would you say is the main benefit of playing Eva Depths over a dedicated disruption into-beating-face strategy, similar to how Eva Green plays?
Could you comment on some of the card choices in the decks you posted? For instance, I notice all decks posted run Confidants, where Eva Green does not. What about Maelstrom Pulse vs. Pernicious Deed? Wishboard expansion/inclusion? The inclusion of Top?
It seems this deck can play both aggro and combo quite well, but doesn't necessarily excel at either one. While this deck has resiliency in the form of recursion/wishboard, it also means it's probably going to be slower than the average combo deck. In this, it relies on it's disruption quite a bit. I notice that you don't have any sideboard for combo. In your playtesting, has 3 Thoughtseize and 4 Hymn to Tourachs been enough? I'm not really worried about the aggro aspect as Eva Depths still plays almost the same beats that Eva Green does.
@Uncoordinated: I appreciate you getting the ball rolling here lol In my opinion the advantage to running this over a traditional Eva Green list is the fact that you have an opportunity to get a faster win. While Eva isn't really a "slow" deck you add the potential to get off the Dark Depths combo on turn 2 and if unchallenged then you win on turn 3. I've played some time with Eva Green and can't say I've ever managed a win off it on turn 3. In my opinion it is nice to have the additional threat that your opponent has to watch out for and then even with it disrupted you can still win.
If you give me a little while I'll update this to add some more information about those card choices you mentioned.
You'd be surprised how often you can get Dark Depths off on turn 2-4 thanks to Dark Rituals, but you do have to use Thoughtseize effectively to make sure you clear out any issues. In playing I have found that there are several times where I do want that fourth Thoughtseize, but I haven't found a way to really rearrange for it. I've considered dropping the Umezawa's Jitte because they aren't always helpful, but I'm not sure what I'd add in addition to the Thoughtseize.
@Practical Joke: I'm sorry you feel that way? lol I'm not basing this off of MWS my experience comes from many games out of MTGO Tournament games. I'm sure people will have something to say about how its different then paper, but that's an argument not worth either of our time.
You're probably right I could amend ANT to Slightly Unfavorable because my list is short one discard spell, but when you run a list with heavy discard you tare apart their hand and can beat them down before they can recover.
As far as Reanimator is concerned if I was going to change it I'd go more on the favorable side. I originally ran a list with Extirpate as my sideboard option for grave hate, but once I switched to Faerie Macabre I haven't lost a match to Reanimator. Every win has been 2-1 because like I said it's hard to win game 1. I plan to leave it as 5050 for now, but over time if I do notice more losses to Reanimator I'll make a change.
@Lorgalis: Thank you I appreciate the feedback. There are some struggles to this deck and yes there are a lot of things out of especially Death & Taxes that answer the Dark Depths win, but what I was trying to convey is that even when the combo gets shut down you still can win through your aggro options. If they Swords to Plowshares your 20/20 then you're now up to 40 life so it's really not so bad. Unlike other combo decks this one has the ability to survive when the combo is shut down.
Yes I have played Eva Green and enjoyed both. It is a tough call at times between the two, but I have to say personally I prefer this deck. The reason for this is because you have the ability, as I mentioned earlier, to win by turn 3 or 4 through Dark Depths, but the deck isn't so reliable on the combo.
Deck List:
BMBCB
UBUB Control/TeachingsBU
Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!
Classic
BPoxB
Legacy
GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG
Monthly Academy Showcase!
An Introduction to Competitive Pauper! *Updated*
Pauper Meta Analysis & What Wizards Left Out!
Found at MTGO Academy!! Same Great Series, Same Great Content, Great New Home!! (yes that is me shamelessly trolling for more readers :))
Check me out on Twitter & Get a little MTGO Therapy
This deck is awkward because it wants to be control against aggro and aggro against control, without being really able to switch gears very easily.
Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
@Capt: Yes you've pretty much nailed how the deck runs. It definitely can be considered almost a kitchen sink like deck because it has a pretty nice balance of both elements. I do think Tombstalker makes for a great ending outside of the Depths combo, but it is also not necessary. The version I am currently running doesn't use them, but can still maintain the enough damage for the win beyond your combo.
@Elminister: Thanks for the compliment, I've done my best to format it in a way that can keep things clear and concise. I did add a section for card discussion under "Additional Card Information", but allow me to quote it to make it easier to find...
**This has also now been added to the F.A.Q. section at the bottom.**
@Clownbaby: Dystopia does hold some potential for a decent sideboard choice. Since the deck has roots in Suicide Black anyone running it should be OK with the idea that you're going to take self damage in the forms of Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant. That being said a card with a life upkeep isn't such a shock, but I would be worried about running the three together especially since that upkeep cost is cumulative. This is where Perish comes into play, however it does not help you really against Death & Taxes. Given the choice I'd personally bring in Pernicious Deeds instead because they give you options beyond color and creature limitations.
Deck List:
BMBCB
UBUB Control/TeachingsBU
Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!
Classic
BPoxB
Legacy
GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG
Monthly Academy Showcase!
An Introduction to Competitive Pauper! *Updated*
Pauper Meta Analysis & What Wizards Left Out!
Found at MTGO Academy!! Same Great Series, Same Great Content, Great New Home!! (yes that is me shamelessly trolling for more readers :))
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Edit: maybe against enchantress also and Mighty Quin
Deck List:
BMBCB
UBUB Control/TeachingsBU
Ha! My Pauper UG Post Deck Showed!
Classic
BPoxB
Legacy
GB Eva Depths (Primer By Me) BG
Monthly Academy Showcase!
An Introduction to Competitive Pauper! *Updated*
Pauper Meta Analysis & What Wizards Left Out!
Found at MTGO Academy!! Same Great Series, Same Great Content, Great New Home!! (yes that is me shamelessly trolling for more readers :))
Check me out on Twitter & Get a little MTGO Therapy
At the moment, I like maelstrom pulse better than pernicious deed because of the rise of humility lately(at least in the area I play due to the saturation of aggro decks). 3 is easier on the mana than 3 than 4. I feel like when I drop deed to early, it just gets eaten by a quasali pridemage.
I am interested in peoples argument of Hypnotic Specter vs Vampire Nighthawk
If you're playing living wish, it becomes quite easy to grab a hexmage..
Anyways.....back to the deck. Still no feedback on Hyppie vs. Nighthawk?
Also, I am having trouble beating burn. Any suggestions?
On Hyppie vs Nighthawk : It's a meta choice. If your meta is aggro, nighthawk is amazing, especially if you play with jitte too. If you've got a control/combo meta, hyppie is much better. Hyppie can also swing things like the ANT match-up into your favor, as it prevents them from ever effectively refilling their hand after you initially rip it apart.
In Eva Green, I've been testing the creature base, and found that in my meta, I really don't like tombstalker that much, and Nantuko shade is pretty sub-par and too mana-hungry, by cutting the shades and reducing the tombstalker count, it's allowed me to run both nighthawk and hyppie and still have room for gatekeepers, though not in full sets. They may take longer to win the game for you, but they can really shut down match-ups and allow you to stabilize early.
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
Tutors/Diggers (16)
4 Worldly Tutor
4 Living Wish
4 Crop Rotation
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Sensei's Divining top
Disruption (16)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Extirpate
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Malestrom Pulse
2 Pithing Needle
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Dark Depths
2 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Tombstalkers
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Dark Depths
1 Bojuko Bog
1 Karakas
1 Wasteland
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Krosan Grip
It's more tutor intensive