There's been a few Grand Arbiter decklists, but a lot of them focused too much on the general. I tried to avoid too much of a dependence on the general, as he is prone to getting killed too quickly for my liking.
There isn't too much of a consistent game plan to the deck, beyond running good stuff from blue/white. Usually wins by combo, kicked Rite, or just sheer CA. I'm trying to to maximize the power level and efficiency of each card, which really boils down to a single card discussion over what's a more powerful card. I try to avoid cards that only work well in a combo and outside of it, have little impact.
I'm using the recommended banlist, since I don't have a consistent playgroup. It's just a lot easier to go with a more universal banlist that everyone uses and more or less acknowledges.
Presently debating whether I want to stick Isochron Scepter+ relevant spell package back in or not.
Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Duplicant is a great utility piece, and gives you an added dimension in the Lark combo (RFGing all of their creatures).
I also like Windborn Muse as an additional Propaganda; the fact that it flies is actually relevant frequently, at least in my experience.
I also find Weathered Wayfarer to be an all star, but I play significantly more artifact mana than you do (due to Cataclysm, etc.), so YMMV.
I've played with Duplicant in the deck, but I ultimately dropped it for Slow Motion instead. Duplicant is good, but most of the time, I was just using it to remove generals and creatures. It wasn't bad, but Slow Motion won out because the latter is a lot harder to get rid of, manages to recur it self and generate more overall advantage by usually coming back to my hand. I might try it again, should I ever manage to find something to cut for it.
I really don't like the idea of Windborn Muse, as it seems a bit too excessive and is more vulnerable as a creature. If I were to run another Propaganda like effect, I'd probably run Pendrell Mists or War Tax or the new Angelic Arbiter.
Weathered Wayfarer I didn't like, just because it relies solely on my opponent consistently having more lands than me, and becomes significantly less effective as a draw late game, compared to a fetchland or Top or Jace.
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
And for my reference as much as anyone else, a changelog to keep track of changes and to see where this is going. Some very minor edits this time around. M11 gave us some new toys.
OUT: Mindbreak Trap- Just really, really not doing it for me. While having the ability to say 'No' to Brain Freeze, Tendrils or Grapeshot or any number of combos that can plan a large number of spells, it just hasn't quite been getting there, especially when compared to what goes in for it.
Condemn- Out because I can snag Brittle Effigy with Tezzeret and Trinket. And cause it makes me wait till they swing to put to the bottom, which isn't bad. I'm not too sure about this, so it may just go back in if I can find something to cut.
IN: Sun Titan- Pretty awesome card. Mostly used for recurring lands, but can be pretty handy in bringing back Aura of Silence or anything else my opponents may have blown up. Overall, just a nasty card to land.
Crystal Ball-More card and library manipulation is good. Not the same as Top, but better than Darksteel Pendant; scry is a very different thing than just rearranging your top three cards. It lets you dig a little deeper, if you need to, and works well with things like Future sight.
May drop Helm of Awakening for Etherium Sculptor- functionally, they're almost the same in facilitating the combo. The thing about Helm, is that it negates my general's effect, which I don't like. The only difference between the two is that Helm makes everything less, and is harder to get rid of compared to Sculptor, which makes only my artifacts less. I don't know. Thoughts, anyone?
Also considering Duplicant and Angelic Arbiter, but I'm not sure what to take out for those two cards to make room, or how well they'd fit overall. It really just boils down to the individual power level on the cards now, IMO.
Still toying with going back to the Stax based build, since it is a pretty good deck still. But experience shows that it is not good if you want to play more than one game with someone, and tends to be a bit unfun for the opponent(s).
Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
You could use Cloud Key or Stone Calendar in the Helm slot if you don't want to help your opponent out. The latter costs a bunch to play, but this deck seems on the slow side anyways, and Key is just a harder to remove sculptor.
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I'd like Stone Calendar, since it does make everything cheaper, but the main issue is that I can't tutor for it immediately with Tezzeret if I needed it right then. I'll give Cloud Key a try, through it is a lot more limited but is still tutorable.
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
I am in the process of testing multiple builds with Grand Arbiter and the best I can come up with is not stax or combo based. Just like a straight up U/W control deck with some slight prison elements, and I am pretty much just playing every good blue and white card.
What variant of Stax are you trying? The version I built and then dismantled basically just ran tutors at ever instance to get Smokestack/Winter Orb/some other lock piece out, and worked to slowly grind. The only issue is that Winter Orb tends to...not make friends. Yeah.
It sounds like you came to a similar version of what I have- basically just a U/W good stuff list, that just tries to maximize the power level of the individual cards. How's your list working out, and what do you have in it compared to mine (if you don't mind me asking)?
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Out- Pithing Needle-This gets the cut because while it is useful, it does require having some knowledge before hand of what to name, etc. and etc. You can argue that you can just tutor for it later and name something that is on the board, except the impact it has then is negligible. Naming generals can be useful, if and only if the general is the sort to rely on activated abilities.
So, it gets the axe for being subpar in many situations.
Slow Motion- I still stand by this card and think it is a phenomenal card. That said, it gets cut and replaced for being the weakest of the lot and less flexible than Spellbomb. I still believe it is a good card and would like to run it, but the fact stands that there just isn't enough space.
Recurring Insight - Much like the case of Slow Motion. I think it's a great card- the only issue I had with it is that it relies on what your opponent has in hand to be optimal. In some games, it'd draw me 13 cards. In other games, it'd sitting in my hand and useless; it averaged about 4.5 cards.
The high CMC is also an issue- EDH is a slower format, but when on the case if I am mana screwed or really need to dig for an answer, I feel like it comes down to slow.
In- Jace Beleren- An odd choice to replace Recurring Insight with, I'll admit. Mostly, there is the possible issue of how it could cancel out Jace TMS and how it helps my opponents more than it helps me. Except, I'm not planning to get him off to his ultimate or keep him alive or anything as such. He says '1UU- Draw 3 cards' to me, and as such, an opponent is rarely going to waste an attack on killing him if he's bound to die very soon.
The lowering of the curve is also very useful, and the interactions with Sun Titan equate to both board and card advantage. Again, this is a test run, so it is possible that he may or may not stick around.
AEther Spellbomb- The replacement for Slow Motion. It's a lot more flexible in what it can do. It won't kill an opposing general or creature outright, but it can bounce a creature, save my own creatures, cycle, and be recurred via Sun Titan.
Oh, and Trinket Mage can tutor for it.
Meekstone- Pithing Needle's replacement. A little worse since the errata changed 2 to 3, but it is effective in slowing down a lot of decks that don't rely on smaller creatures. Of course, it is a double edged sword since it potentially can also slow down my own creatures, but the general benefits it offers outweigh the downsides. In essence, a pseudo-Wrath, or a major deterrent to attacking.
I'm toying with the idea of trying Ixidron as a sort of pseudo permanent non-lethal Wrath effect, but the fact it also turns my creatures into 2/2s with no hope of coming back makes me somewhat hesitant. Thoughts or ideas?
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Monthly update, wohoo. More changes than usual this time and overhauled some of the card choices.
IN
[CARD]
Minamo, School at Water's Edge[/CARD]- Functionally an Island at worst, I finally jumped on the train for this card mostly because I disliked having less fetchland targets. It hasn't turned out badly, to say the least- it does function much as an Island in many cases, but also lets me untap Maze of Ith, Kor Haven or Arcanis the Omnipotent, all which can severely affect the game state.
Crystal Shard- I realized a while ago that I was mostly using Sakashima for his ability to repeat CIP effects, which this card does just as well. It's also an artifact, making it harder to kill, has a cheaper cost, and can also function to save my own creatures.
It sort of became an easy choice from there.
Enlightened Tutor- I really don't know why I haven't been playing this card. I think I just somehow managed to forget about the fact that it did exist? Tutoring for artifacts or enchantments, sign me up.
Talisman of Progress- Not nearly as powerful in the league of Grim Monolith or Sol Ring, but it does give me colored mana should I need it, can be used immediately without any mana commitment and doesn't require me to pay 4 on my upkeep to untap it.
Desertion- The main reason why I haven't been playing this card is because, well. I couldn't ever decide what I should cut for it, so I finally decided to just test it out and see how it did work out. In essence, it's a counter that functions much like Draining Whelk- a 2 for 1.
Forcefield- See the case of Enlightened Tutor. I just kind of forgot it existed.
This card doesn't need justifying here.
OUT
Jace Beleren- I'm not sure how I feel about this, because the need for cheaper card draw is useful. But Forcefield is too good not to play.
Brainstorm- I really didn't like cutting this card, but when it comes down to it, it just doesn't do enough to warrant it over Desertion. Drawing three and rearranging the cards is good- see Jace TMS. The difference is that Jace can repeat this effect, and Brainstorm can't without outside help.
Mana Vault- The clause that I can only untap it on my upkeep by paying for effectively made it a one shot trick that usually remained tapped for the rest of the game, barring drawing Tezzeret. It's not a bad card- it just rarely did too much good.
Crystal Ball- Enlightened Tutor lets me go fetch Top. Or any number of useful enchantments or artifacts.
Island- Just kind of got replaced by a better Island.
Sakashima, the Impostor- Crystal Shard gives me more flexibility if I really want to repeat CIP effects more.
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Slight update with Scars. Nothing too interesting for this deck, except for Venser, and possibly Clone Shell, but other than that...Nah.
In
Venser, the Sojourner-He's shiny. And ultimately, doesn't actually do anything on his own- he does make for useful interactions with Lark and some of the other creatures, and provides a sort of semi-vigilance or untaps lands if I really need to. I don't care much for his -1 ability, but it's more of his ultimate that makes him good in my eyes.
Out
Crystal Shard- Venser does more of what this card did, except now I can't save my creatures at instant speed. However, I can still let them dodge my own Wrath effects.
Tempted to find some room for Duplicant, but I'm unsure as to what I should cut to make room for it. Likewise, may replace Court Hussar with Sea Gate Oracle due to the lack of dying when for the CIP trigger with Venser.
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
IN
Celestial Colonnade
Mind Stone
Blatant Thievery
OUT
Scalding Tarn
Grim Monolith
Meekstone
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Some more edits due mostly to Flying Spaghetti Monster getting the axe. Made me have to shift some cards around.
OUT
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Petrified Field
Helm of Awakening
Brain Freeze
IN
Winding Canyons
Wurmcoil Engine
Spelljack
Duplicant
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Just a thought... have you considered Sage of Fables? With all the wizards you're running she can be really good card draw, and a little pump bonus, but the best thing is that she gives Glen Elendra Archmage Infinite Negates. Maybe put it in for Nevs Disk since you said the disk hadn't really been of use.
And maybeMulldrifter over Court Hussar? Better blocker as it flies, and recurs with the same spells/combos that Hussar does.
Did you mean Glacial Wall (as you put with lands) or Glacial Fortress? I'm assuming you meant Fortress.
And I don't know what I'd cut for it, but Wall of Denial is hard to leave out of any UW control deck. And it's recurrable with Lark, Karmic, or Sun Titan. Maybe Force Field? They're both for defense and I think the wall would be stronger/more recurrable.
Guile and dovescape are really fun in any blue/white deck
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Originally Posted by Massive Marc
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
My personal opinion is you need more draw, more land, more focus. I counted 41 mana producers. Unless your general stays alive and lets your spells cost less, I am confidant you are noticing mana problems. I would go up to 44 mana producers with at least 38 land. I dont see a reason for the artifact land. There is zero benefit and they can be swept by a board wipe effect. It also seems that your deck may have problems with early planeswalkers.
Jace's Ingenuity - more draw is good
Stroke of Genius - more draw is good
Opportunity - more draw is good
Ancestral Visions - more draw is good
All the missing fetchlands - good with top if nothing else
Amnesia - gg against slower decks
O Ring - good generic answer
Pithing Needle - good generic answer
Brainstorm - Smooths out draws
Ponder - Smooths out draws
Preordain - Smooths out draws
Baneslayer Angel - Just a beating that they must answer
Serra Ascendent - I've never played with this but it should be cool
Force of Will - One of the best counterspells ever.
Gilded Drake - Stealing generals is good. Also can steal a fatty with counter backup cause its low cmc.
Cards I would consider removing:
Mirror Entity - you dont play that many creatures to make this worthwhile
Body Double - baneslayer is better
Court Hussar - brainstorm is better
Blatant Thievery - slow
Ancient Den
Seat of the Synod
Tezzeret - doesnt seem that great in your deck.
Momentary Blink - Narrow. Id rather play a straight up counter like faerie trickery or forbid.
Remand - Rather play a straight up counter. This card shines in tempo decks.
Memory Lapse - Same as remand.
Spelljack - Can be very good or can blow balls depending on the color of the spell you jack. I'm not a fan of cards that are situationally good.
Originally Posted by Massive Marc
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
@Blackjack68: I actually haven't looked at Sage of Fables yet- my main contest with it is that it doesn't do anything on its own and relies on me to have another wizard floating around my hand, which doesn't always work out well. The Disk may or may not be cut for Oblivion Stone, since stone is more easily fetched with Tezzeret, but we'll see.
Mulldrifter actually would be an amazing replacement for Court Hussar. Huh.
Hah, yeah, I meant fortress. Fixed now.
Wall of Denial was considered, but the problem I had with it was is that it rarely did much beyond block a general once (like Rafiq) while Forcefield doesn't in as much stop general damage/damage but make it very difficult to kill via damage. If I were to play a wall, I'd rather play Mnemonic Wall.
@Napoleon: Guile got cut for Spelljack, which made Dovescape less than useful. Mostly because there'd always be a Pridemage/Aura of Silence on board whenever I would get the cards in hand, and Guile by itself gets targeted very quickly.
@simbayu: Blackjack and Napoleon covered a lot of that, actually. Isochron Scepter with a majority of those spells provides continual CA after the first initial turn. A lot of the cards you did list, though, I've tested and played with in the beginning stages of the deck, but cut them simply because they didn't do enough on their own, or there were more powerful and useful cards I could play in their spot.
I actually haven't had mana issues as of yet. I did have a higher count of fetchlands before, but I cut them due to the fact I often found myself without basics to fetch with them, which would require me to play more basic lands versus fetchlands. As it is, five seems to be a little more than enough at most times.
Gilded Drake is something I've had on the side for a while, and would probably slip itself in if I could find something to replace it with, possibly Blatant Thievery.
The key point of Tezzeret is that he works to ramp me and thin out the deck of artifact lands (also Trinket Mage targets if I'm in need of a color). Mostly, though, is that he rarely ever dies or gets attacked. Most of the other walkers, aside from the original Jace, tend to suffer death very quickly. No one tends to care about Tezzeret as much, for whatever reason.
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Of the three, Consecrated Sphinx is probably the only one I'm adding. It's a bit like Arcanis, except it doesn't require you to tap it and doesn't protect itself. It doesn't require haste to make it's ability useful, though, and will win the game if it stick around.
Blatant Thievery was shifted to list for more multiplayer formatted cards in exchange for Sphinx.
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Sorry about that- I thought I had updated it with NPH/M12. It's now fully updated to its current form. My build is much more designed around being a largely reactive while just generally attempting to maximize the power level per card.
Some of the cards I'm still on the fence on are-
Rite of Replication- It's a bit like clone, but towards later on in the game kicking it can be pretty backbreaking. The problem is that it's only sorcery and reliant on another deck to play powerful creatures.
Preacher- Kind of a Bribery, only white and 2 less and a creature. Mostly I like him solely because Sun Titan can recur him, but it's arguable which is better.
Altar of Dementia- This or Blasting Station are both functionally the same as a sac outlet to take advantage of various interactions. I prefer Altar since if my opponents are playing Eldrazi, I can mill myself till I get the full lark combo arranged.
Jace Beleren- He basically replaced Court Hussar simply because it forces attention away from me and to him. Draw-wise, he draws me more cards on average than Hussar and functions much the same with Sun Titan.
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EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Have you had a chance to try out phantasmal image? I've been playing a similar list to Wafo-Tapa's and let's just say that Sun titan + Phantasmal Image + tec edge/wasteland/stripmine is just insane.
I've been playing around with Phantasmal Image, since it is just a two mana Clone, but there's also the difficulty of what I'd remove in favor for it. I'm a big fan of it, it's just that trying to determine what should be removed in favor for it is more difficult than it should be.
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
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There isn't too much of a consistent game plan to the deck, beyond running good stuff from blue/white. Usually wins by combo, kicked Rite, or just sheer CA. I'm trying to to maximize the power level and efficiency of each card, which really boils down to a single card discussion over what's a more powerful card. I try to avoid cards that only work well in a combo and outside of it, have little impact.
I'm using the recommended banlist, since I don't have a consistent playgroup. It's just a lot easier to go with a more universal banlist that everyone uses and more or less acknowledges.
Presently debating whether I want to stick Isochron Scepter+ relevant spell package back in or not.
1 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Instants:
1 Dismiss
1 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Cryptic Command
1 Desertion
1 Condescend
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Remand
1 Spell Crumple
1 Mana Drain
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Momentary Blink
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Intuition
1 Path to Exile
1 Counterspell
1 Spelljack
1 Rite of Replication
1 Debt of Loyalty
Sorcery:
1 Wrath of God
1 Austere Command
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Hallowed Burial
1 Terminus
Enchantments:
1 Propaganda
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Aura of Silence
1 Future Sight
1 Rhystic Study
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
Artifact:
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Mindslaver
1 Mind Stone
1 Sol Ring
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Azorius Signet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Forcefield
1 Altar of Dementia
Creatures:
1 Reveillark
1 Duplicant
1 Trinket Mage
1 Body Double
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Draining Whelk
1 Karmic Guide
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sun Titan
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Gilded Drake
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Snapcaster Mage
7 Island
5 Plains
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Winding Canyons
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Wasteland
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Arid Mesa
1 Academy Ruins
1 Nimbus Maze
1 Ancient Den
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Maze of Ith
1 Kor Haven
1 Tundra
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolaria West
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Temple of Enlightenment
1 Marsh Flats
1 Mystic Gate
Below are some cards that exist solely for the multiplayer situations.
Blatant Thievery
Luminate Primordial
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
I also like Windborn Muse as an additional Propaganda; the fact that it flies is actually relevant frequently, at least in my experience.
I also find Weathered Wayfarer to be an all star, but I play significantly more artifact mana than you do (due to Cataclysm, etc.), so YMMV.
I've played with Duplicant in the deck, but I ultimately dropped it for Slow Motion instead. Duplicant is good, but most of the time, I was just using it to remove generals and creatures. It wasn't bad, but Slow Motion won out because the latter is a lot harder to get rid of, manages to recur it self and generate more overall advantage by usually coming back to my hand. I might try it again, should I ever manage to find something to cut for it.
I really don't like the idea of Windborn Muse, as it seems a bit too excessive and is more vulnerable as a creature. If I were to run another Propaganda like effect, I'd probably run Pendrell Mists or War Tax or the new Angelic Arbiter.
Weathered Wayfarer I didn't like, just because it relies solely on my opponent consistently having more lands than me, and becomes significantly less effective as a draw late game, compared to a fetchland or Top or Jace.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
OUT:
Mindbreak Trap- Just really, really not doing it for me. While having the ability to say 'No' to Brain Freeze, Tendrils or Grapeshot or any number of combos that can plan a large number of spells, it just hasn't quite been getting there, especially when compared to what goes in for it.
Condemn- Out because I can snag Brittle Effigy with Tezzeret and Trinket. And cause it makes me wait till they swing to put to the bottom, which isn't bad. I'm not too sure about this, so it may just go back in if I can find something to cut.
IN:
Sun Titan- Pretty awesome card. Mostly used for recurring lands, but can be pretty handy in bringing back Aura of Silence or anything else my opponents may have blown up. Overall, just a nasty card to land.
Crystal Ball-More card and library manipulation is good. Not the same as Top, but better than Darksteel Pendant; scry is a very different thing than just rearranging your top three cards. It lets you dig a little deeper, if you need to, and works well with things like Future sight.
May drop Helm of Awakening for Etherium Sculptor- functionally, they're almost the same in facilitating the combo. The thing about Helm, is that it negates my general's effect, which I don't like. The only difference between the two is that Helm makes everything less, and is harder to get rid of compared to Sculptor, which makes only my artifacts less. I don't know. Thoughts, anyone?
Also considering Duplicant and Angelic Arbiter, but I'm not sure what to take out for those two cards to make room, or how well they'd fit overall. It really just boils down to the individual power level on the cards now, IMO.
Still toying with going back to the Stax based build, since it is a pretty good deck still. But experience shows that it is not good if you want to play more than one game with someone, and tends to be a bit unfun for the opponent(s).
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
It sounds like you came to a similar version of what I have- basically just a U/W good stuff list, that just tries to maximize the power level of the individual cards. How's your list working out, and what do you have in it compared to mine (if you don't mind me asking)?
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Out-
Pithing Needle-This gets the cut because while it is useful, it does require having some knowledge before hand of what to name, etc. and etc. You can argue that you can just tutor for it later and name something that is on the board, except the impact it has then is negligible. Naming generals can be useful, if and only if the general is the sort to rely on activated abilities.
So, it gets the axe for being subpar in many situations.
Slow Motion- I still stand by this card and think it is a phenomenal card. That said, it gets cut and replaced for being the weakest of the lot and less flexible than Spellbomb. I still believe it is a good card and would like to run it, but the fact stands that there just isn't enough space.
Recurring Insight - Much like the case of Slow Motion. I think it's a great card- the only issue I had with it is that it relies on what your opponent has in hand to be optimal. In some games, it'd draw me 13 cards. In other games, it'd sitting in my hand and useless; it averaged about 4.5 cards.
The high CMC is also an issue- EDH is a slower format, but when on the case if I am mana screwed or really need to dig for an answer, I feel like it comes down to slow.
In-
Jace Beleren- An odd choice to replace Recurring Insight with, I'll admit. Mostly, there is the possible issue of how it could cancel out Jace TMS and how it helps my opponents more than it helps me. Except, I'm not planning to get him off to his ultimate or keep him alive or anything as such. He says '1UU- Draw 3 cards' to me, and as such, an opponent is rarely going to waste an attack on killing him if he's bound to die very soon.
The lowering of the curve is also very useful, and the interactions with Sun Titan equate to both board and card advantage. Again, this is a test run, so it is possible that he may or may not stick around.
AEther Spellbomb- The replacement for Slow Motion. It's a lot more flexible in what it can do. It won't kill an opposing general or creature outright, but it can bounce a creature, save my own creatures, cycle, and be recurred via Sun Titan.
Oh, and Trinket Mage can tutor for it.
Meekstone- Pithing Needle's replacement. A little worse since the errata changed 2 to 3, but it is effective in slowing down a lot of decks that don't rely on smaller creatures. Of course, it is a double edged sword since it potentially can also slow down my own creatures, but the general benefits it offers outweigh the downsides. In essence, a pseudo-Wrath, or a major deterrent to attacking.
I'm toying with the idea of trying Ixidron as a sort of pseudo permanent non-lethal Wrath effect, but the fact it also turns my creatures into 2/2s with no hope of coming back makes me somewhat hesitant. Thoughts or ideas?
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
IN
[CARD]
Minamo, School at Water's Edge[/CARD]- Functionally an Island at worst, I finally jumped on the train for this card mostly because I disliked having less fetchland targets. It hasn't turned out badly, to say the least- it does function much as an Island in many cases, but also lets me untap Maze of Ith, Kor Haven or Arcanis the Omnipotent, all which can severely affect the game state.
Crystal Shard- I realized a while ago that I was mostly using Sakashima for his ability to repeat CIP effects, which this card does just as well. It's also an artifact, making it harder to kill, has a cheaper cost, and can also function to save my own creatures.
It sort of became an easy choice from there.
Enlightened Tutor- I really don't know why I haven't been playing this card. I think I just somehow managed to forget about the fact that it did exist? Tutoring for artifacts or enchantments, sign me up.
Talisman of Progress- Not nearly as powerful in the league of Grim Monolith or Sol Ring, but it does give me colored mana should I need it, can be used immediately without any mana commitment and doesn't require me to pay 4 on my upkeep to untap it.
Desertion- The main reason why I haven't been playing this card is because, well. I couldn't ever decide what I should cut for it, so I finally decided to just test it out and see how it did work out. In essence, it's a counter that functions much like Draining Whelk- a 2 for 1.
Forcefield- See the case of Enlightened Tutor. I just kind of forgot it existed.
This card doesn't need justifying here.
OUT
Jace Beleren- I'm not sure how I feel about this, because the need for cheaper card draw is useful. But Forcefield is too good not to play.
Brainstorm- I really didn't like cutting this card, but when it comes down to it, it just doesn't do enough to warrant it over Desertion. Drawing three and rearranging the cards is good- see Jace TMS. The difference is that Jace can repeat this effect, and Brainstorm can't without outside help.
Mana Vault- The clause that I can only untap it on my upkeep by paying for effectively made it a one shot trick that usually remained tapped for the rest of the game, barring drawing Tezzeret. It's not a bad card- it just rarely did too much good.
Crystal Ball- Enlightened Tutor lets me go fetch Top. Or any number of useful enchantments or artifacts.
Island- Just kind of got replaced by a better Island.
Sakashima, the Impostor- Crystal Shard gives me more flexibility if I really want to repeat CIP effects more.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
In
Venser, the Sojourner-He's shiny. And ultimately, doesn't actually do anything on his own- he does make for useful interactions with Lark and some of the other creatures, and provides a sort of semi-vigilance or untaps lands if I really need to. I don't care much for his -1 ability, but it's more of his ultimate that makes him good in my eyes.
Out
Crystal Shard- Venser does more of what this card did, except now I can't save my creatures at instant speed. However, I can still let them dodge my own Wrath effects.
Tempted to find some room for Duplicant, but I'm unsure as to what I should cut to make room for it. Likewise, may replace Court Hussar with Sea Gate Oracle due to the lack of dying when for the CIP trigger with Venser.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
As also for an update, some minor changes:
IN
Celestial Colonnade
Mind Stone
Blatant Thievery
OUT
Scalding Tarn
Grim Monolith
Meekstone
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
OUT
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Petrified Field
Helm of Awakening
Brain Freeze
IN
Winding Canyons
Wurmcoil Engine
Spelljack
Duplicant
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
And maybe Mulldrifter over Court Hussar? Better blocker as it flies, and recurs with the same spells/combos that Hussar does.
Did you mean Glacial Wall (as you put with lands) or Glacial Fortress? I'm assuming you meant Fortress.
And I don't know what I'd cut for it, but Wall of Denial is hard to leave out of any UW control deck. And it's recurrable with Lark, Karmic, or Sun Titan. Maybe Force Field? They're both for defense and I think the wall would be stronger/more recurrable.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
Jace's Ingenuity - more draw is good
Stroke of Genius - more draw is good
Opportunity - more draw is good
Ancestral Visions - more draw is good
All the missing fetchlands - good with top if nothing else
Amnesia - gg against slower decks
O Ring - good generic answer
Pithing Needle - good generic answer
Brainstorm - Smooths out draws
Ponder - Smooths out draws
Preordain - Smooths out draws
Baneslayer Angel - Just a beating that they must answer
Serra Ascendent - I've never played with this but it should be cool
Force of Will - One of the best counterspells ever.
Gilded Drake - Stealing generals is good. Also can steal a fatty with counter backup cause its low cmc.
Cards I would consider removing:
Mirror Entity - you dont play that many creatures to make this worthwhile
Body Double - baneslayer is better
Court Hussar - brainstorm is better
Blatant Thievery - slow
Ancient Den
Seat of the Synod
Tezzeret - doesnt seem that great in your deck.
Momentary Blink - Narrow. Id rather play a straight up counter like faerie trickery or forbid.
Remand - Rather play a straight up counter. This card shines in tempo decks.
Memory Lapse - Same as remand.
Spelljack - Can be very good or can blow balls depending on the color of the spell you jack. I'm not a fan of cards that are situationally good.
I don't think you're getting what he's doing here. Mirror Entity and Body Double are there because they are part of an infinite combo.
He chose a lot of the countermagic that he did (like memory lapse and remand) because the cost allows him to imprint them on the isochron scepter.
Momentary Blink isn't there to remove an opponents creature, it's to blink his own for its etb abilities like card draw, tutoring, and recursion.
And spelljack allows you to play the exiled spell without paying, so any colors are fine.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Isochron Scepter + Memory Lapse = OP
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
Mulldrifter actually would be an amazing replacement for Court Hussar. Huh.
Hah, yeah, I meant fortress. Fixed now.
Wall of Denial was considered, but the problem I had with it was is that it rarely did much beyond block a general once (like Rafiq) while Forcefield doesn't in as much stop general damage/damage but make it very difficult to kill via damage. If I were to play a wall, I'd rather play Mnemonic Wall.
@Napoleon: Guile got cut for Spelljack, which made Dovescape less than useful. Mostly because there'd always be a Pridemage/Aura of Silence on board whenever I would get the cards in hand, and Guile by itself gets targeted very quickly.
@simbayu: Blackjack and Napoleon covered a lot of that, actually. Isochron Scepter with a majority of those spells provides continual CA after the first initial turn. A lot of the cards you did list, though, I've tested and played with in the beginning stages of the deck, but cut them simply because they didn't do enough on their own, or there were more powerful and useful cards I could play in their spot.
I actually haven't had mana issues as of yet. I did have a higher count of fetchlands before, but I cut them due to the fact I often found myself without basics to fetch with them, which would require me to play more basic lands versus fetchlands. As it is, five seems to be a little more than enough at most times.
Gilded Drake is something I've had on the side for a while, and would probably slip itself in if I could find something to replace it with, possibly Blatant Thievery.
The key point of Tezzeret is that he works to ramp me and thin out the deck of artifact lands (also Trinket Mage targets if I'm in need of a color). Mostly, though, is that he rarely ever dies or gets attacked. Most of the other walkers, aside from the original Jace, tend to suffer death very quickly. No one tends to care about Tezzeret as much, for whatever reason.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Of the three, Consecrated Sphinx is probably the only one I'm adding. It's a bit like Arcanis, except it doesn't require you to tap it and doesn't protect itself. It doesn't require haste to make it's ability useful, though, and will win the game if it stick around.
Blatant Thievery was shifted to list for more multiplayer formatted cards in exchange for Sphinx.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Some of the cards I'm still on the fence on are-
Rite of Replication- It's a bit like clone, but towards later on in the game kicking it can be pretty backbreaking. The problem is that it's only sorcery and reliant on another deck to play powerful creatures.
Preacher- Kind of a Bribery, only white and 2 less and a creature. Mostly I like him solely because Sun Titan can recur him, but it's arguable which is better.
Altar of Dementia- This or Blasting Station are both functionally the same as a sac outlet to take advantage of various interactions. I prefer Altar since if my opponents are playing Eldrazi, I can mill myself till I get the full lark combo arranged.
Jace Beleren- He basically replaced Court Hussar simply because it forces attention away from me and to him. Draw-wise, he draws me more cards on average than Hussar and functions much the same with Sun Titan.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections