Some people like dragons. Those people suck. Dragons are big, unexciting fatties without subtlety or cleverness.
Me, I like shapeshifters.
So that's why, when I wanted to make a sweet deck around the shapeshifteriest general around, I figured the only want to abuse Scion of the Ur-Dragon properly was to combine him with Conspiracy so I'm not limited to the boring ol' dragons. Although I do keep around a few dragons in case I need to win without conspiracy.
This deck was murderously difficult to build, and probably to play, so I'm looking for all sorts of help in fine tuning
There are tons of tutors to ensure that you get conspiracy ASAP, since that provides your primary wincon. If you think counterspells pose a threat, fetch up vexing shusher. There are all sorts of sexy combos once you've got the combo online. Most combos involve activating scion's ability multiple times in reponse to each other. Then, as the abilities resolve, you can activate abilities until he hits his final form after the last activation. Ulamog, the Inifinte Gyre is your method to get your creatures shuffled back into your library for reuse. The fastest win against a single player is Cephalid Inkshrouder + Phage the Untouchableactivate scion twice, select inkshrouder on the first resolution, then discard a card for shroud + unblockability, and select phage on the second resolution. Presto! untargetable unblockable phage = much lulz.
Cool combos/reasons for cards:
All of these are Via scion + conspiracy, of course. Cephalid Inkshrouder + Phage the Untouchable = someone just lost the game. Admonition angel = exile with no return Infernal Denizen = snatch creatures with no downside Glen Elendra Archmage + Oran-Rief, the Vastwood = counter a spell every turn. shapesharer + amoeboid changeling = destroy an enemy general and another creature - usable without conspiracy too! ulamog, the infinite gyre/morphling/mistmeadow witch = evade most anything. You can choose morphling as the first creature you tutor and give it shroud until EOT, so it's protected from whatever. Ulamog is an easy response to wraths, etc. For nasty crap like hallowed burial you've got mistmeadow witch, or just counter it with archmage. Pulsemage Advocate + anything! = tutor up any creature you want in play (except phage, lol!), then pop it into play with advocate! in a multiplayer game you can make a friend by returning some crap to their hand, or give them stuff to smite your enemies. eternal witness + mistmeadow witch = unlimited recursion. zur the enchanter = tutors sterling grove to fetch conspiracy, or give your conspiracy shroud. and he gets you training grounds, which rapidly accelerates scion's capabilities. Stonehewer Giant = fetches greaves for permashroud, pariah's shield to combo with ulamog, or...sunforger!!! Sunforger = the recursion with ulamog gives infinite recursion. bant charm is the ultimate threat for your enemies, punish ignorance is the nastiest counterspell evar, Naya Charm gives another recursion engine, mirrorweave is just....oh god, my mind cannot begin to comprehend the possible permutations of having mirrorweave, scion, conspiracy, and shapesharer available. dear christ. And there's a few good tutors that are forge-able too. Crypt of Agadeem = potentially a very nice mana source with your ability to dump creatures in your graveyard.
What I need help with:
-What lands should I take out/change? I'm trying to make a semi-budget mana setup - no fetches/duals, but most else is fair game. I'd like to cut some utility lands for more fixing. Any ideas for a better mana setup?
-What other awesome creatures and combos can be used with scion?!?!?!
-Not sure if I have good enough of defense. I figure I can always tutor stinkweed imp if people are hating too much before my combo comes out, not many people will attack into a reusable suicide bomber.
-are there too many tutor creatures in the deck? some of them are castable, but stuff like dragon tyrant are there exclusively for tutoring.
-Are there any better tutors for conspiracy, or just all-around tutors? Before anyone suggests beseech the Queen, I don't like it because it's too slow. by 5 lands I should be dropping scion or conspiracy.
-mana-accelerant-wise, any other things i need to add? probably noble hierarch, now that I think about it, but other ideas are welcome. I haven't built a 5-color EDH deck before.
-any other sweet sunforger targets? I love sunforger and would love to make it a major part of my deck, since it's so easy for me to tutor up and start using.
This is really weird, I had a very similar idea recently because I love Conspiracy as a card and Scion of the Ur-Drago is one of the best generals that deals with particular creature types.
The build I had in mind was more piled high with Eldrazi that would shuffle themselves back in, with fewer utilities. I like your build more, though.
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BInfect BWDeath & Taxes UBRAffinity
RBurn UBRSac Land Tendrils UBRGOops, All Spells
WUGPhelddagrif GGGOmnath, Locus of Mana BBBXiahou Dun, the One-Eyed RRRAshling, the Pilgrim BBWTeysa, Scion of Orzhov UUUTalrand, Sky Summoner UUBVela the Night-Clad GGBVhati il-Dal RUWRuhan of the Fomori
Fun!
I built one of these.... but with the timespiral dragons. I would suggest Intet, the Dreamer and possibly Teneb, the Harvester as being rather abusable with that general and your toolbox of creatures. Granted.. they are dragons... but not boring ones.
As for land.. erm.. I ran a few basics and Terramorphic Expanse and now that new functional reprint of it. Cheap and deck thinning, LOL.
Legacy/Vintage GWREnchanted Eve (building) ~ BPoxy Pox
Standard WUMeow-Go~BU Infection
Casual BWAngel Doom ~ GRWWarpride ~ WGUStoic Control (ARG)
EDH BRGWUScion of the Ur-Dragon ~ BSiezan, The Perverter of Truth ~ W 8.5 Tails (needs work) All my Decks.
as well, you should throw Living Death in this deck :]
I'm pretty sure the combo does. when scion/archmage changes zones, it forgets that it was an archmage and becomes scion again, which is a green creature.
the counters cancel each other out, as per rule....something or other, look it up yourself.
resurrecting all my stuff is certainly a traditional way to win with scion, but I'm not into tradition. I can do that just as well without conspiracy. Shapeshifting ftw is way more fun imo, and the game should pretty much be a lock once you've got the machine going.
i knew someone was going to say that. I agree (although I've seen very few people actually use those cards, since they tend to draw massive hate) but frankly I'd have to neuter my manabase with a shovel to make it even moderately resilient to such things. I prefer the reliability of my nonbasic mana engine, even if it does get totally screwed by certain cards. Anyway, as long as scion is already in play I can always dragon tyrant the bastard into oblivion.
I'm pretty sure the combo does. when scion/archmage changes zones, it forgets that it was an archmage and becomes scion again, which is a green creature.
the counters cancel each other out, as per rule....something or other, look it up yourself.
I'm gonna side with Arrogant here - it doesn't work as stated.
If all you have is Glen Elendra Archmage and Oran-Rief, the Vastwood, you can counter one spell, and then the Archmage will persist back but cannot gain a +1/+1 counter because it isn't green.
If you use Scion of the Ur-Dragon and Conspiracy to turn Scion into an Glen Elendra Archmage, you can sac it for the counter ability, at which point Scion will persist back as long as you don't allow it to go to the Command Zone (a prime time for someone to activate Reito Lantern, if you ask me). When Scion returns as itself with a -1/-1 counter, you can indeed nullify the counter using Oran-Rief, but it is no longer an Archmage and can no longer counter things. Also, Archmage is now in your graveyard, so you can't tutor it up again unless you have a way to throw it back in your library, which requires another card. At this point, you are attempting a five-color, five-card combo, which will be near impossible to pull off in EDH, with all of the counterspells, creature removal, enchantment removal, and graveyard hate that gets run.
Besides, why would you bother with such a complicated combo when the way to abuse Glen Elendra Archmage is simply to combine it with Sage of Fables? It's a two card combo that lets you counter each non-creature spell for just U.
with conspiracy and scion on the board, searching for progenitus gives him pro everything... seems good.
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"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
I think the OP didn't get how Conspiracy works, it copies the creature TYPE (elf, gobbo, zombie...), not the creature name.
So Cephalid Inkshrouder doesn't give evasion to Phage, Glen Elandra + Oran Rief don't work as FunkyDragon stated, Ameboid Changeling does not destroy a legendary creature, and so on.
I like the idea of making Scion into a toolbox with Conspiracy, just wanted to state that the creature type things, but doesn't mess with it's name.
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"Now i lay you, down to rest, you'll never be more than second best" (Megadeth)
I think the OP didn't get how Conspiracy works, it copies the creature TYPE (elf, gobbo, zombie...), not the creature name.
So Cephalid Inkshrouder doesn't give evasion to Phage, Glen Elandra + Oran Rief don't work as FunkyDragon stated, Ameboid Changeling does not destroy a legendary creature, and so on.
I like the idea of making Scion into a toolbox with Conspiracy, just wanted to state that the creature type things, but doesn't mess with it's name.
I'm pretty sure that names have nothing to do with what he's trying to accomplish. The majority of things that he's attempting to do all involve multiple scion activations in order to stack a bunch of abilities onto it, as with the Inkshrouder + Phage example. Ameboid Changeling does in fact combo with Shapesharer to legend rule any targetable legendary creature.
I'm pretty sure that names have nothing to do with what he's trying to accomplish. The majority of things that he's attempting to do all involve multiple scion activations in order to stack a bunch of abilities onto it, as with the Inkshrouder + Phage example. Ameboid Changeling does in fact combo with Shapesharer to legend rule any targetable legendary creature.
Unfortunately, Inkshrouder + Phage doesn't work, either. This is a common error\oversight for newcomers to Scion: once you activate its ability, and let it resolve, it LOSES the ability until the next end step. So you can't copy Inkshrouder, attack (unblockable), then change into Phage for the win. Nice thought, but doesn't work. There's no way to stack it for these kinds of tricks. The best thing to do with multiple activations is get guys into the 'yard and reanimate them.
The best, cleverest, most awesome abuse of Conspiracy I have devised is [creatures] + Nissa Revane.
Unfortunately, Inkshrouder + Phage doesn't work, either. This is a common error\oversight for newcomers to Scion: once you activate its ability, and let it resolve, it LOSES the ability until the next end step. So you can't copy Inkshrouder, attack (unblockable), then change into Phage for the win. Nice thought, but doesn't work. There's no way to stack it for these kinds of tricks. The best thing to do with multiple activations is get guys into the 'yard and reanimate them.
Could you:
Attack
1. Stack scion ability 1
2. Stack scion ability 2
2nd scion ability resolves > Turn into Inkshrouder
-After this resolves you would need to respond to the first scion ability; the one still on the stack. I'm not sure if this is legal or not.
3. Respond to 'scion ability 1' with Inkshrouder's ability.
Or is it that as soon as the stack starts resolving, you can't respond to those triggers? Who plays by the rules anyway!? This is casual dammit; stack misinterpretations happen in a casual environment at 3 am.
@OP: why play inkshrouder when you could put Whispersilk Cloak on your general and then turn them into phage? Or play Mindslaver and make the blue player cast Bribery on you and select Phage.
Volrath's Shapeshifter is pretty excellent with all the creatures hitting your yard. You could also Scion this guy and be able to do all the stax effects you wanted because he keeps the shape changing ability.
After anything on the stack resolves, each player gets priority.
so you could:
1. Attack with Scion
2. Activate its ability, searching for Phage
3. Respond to the first activation by activating again searching for Inkshroud
4. Let the first trigger resolve. Scion becomes a copy of Inkshroud.
5. Respond to the resolution by discarding a card and giving Scion Shroud and Unblockability.
6. The first activation resolves, turning Scion into a Phage.
The only thing I'm unsure of is if Scion turning into Phage will overwrite all of his current abilities (Shroud/Unblockable) as part of becoming a "copy". If someone could clarify that would be good.
After anything on the stack resolves, each player gets priority.
so you could:
1. Attack with Scion
2. Activate its ability, searching for Phage
3. Respond to the first activation by activating again searching for Inkshroud
4. Let the first trigger resolve. Scion becomes a copy of Inkshroud.
5. Respond to the resolution by discarding a card and giving Scion Shroud and Unblockability.
6. The first activation resolves, turning Scion into a Phage.
The only thing I'm unsure of is if Scion turning into Phage will overwrite all of his current abilities (Shroud/Unblockable) as part of becoming a "copy". If someone could clarify that would be good.
Aha, I believe this way works. I wouldn't have thought to do it all during the attack step. I'm pretty sure the permanent changing names (and other attributes) from "Inkshrouder" to "Phage" wouldn't affect the fact that it (the permanent) has been given shroud\unblockable until EoT.
After anything on the stack resolves, each player gets priority.
so you could:
1. Attack with Scion
2. Activate its ability, searching for Phage
3. Respond to the first activation by activating again searching for Inkshroud
4. Let the first trigger resolve. Scion becomes a copy of Inkshroud.
5. Respond to the resolution by discarding a card and giving Scion Shroud and Unblockability.
6. The first activation resolves, turning Scion into a Phage.
The only thing I'm unsure of is if Scion turning into Phage will overwrite all of his current abilities (Shroud/Unblockable) as part of becoming a "copy". If someone could clarify that would be good.
If I understand rule 112.11 correctly, then Scion shouldn't lose unblockability when it changes to Phage:
Quote from Comp. Rules »
112.11. An effect that sets an object's characteristic, or simply states a quality of that object, is different from an ability granted by an effect. When an object "gains" or "has" an ability, that ability can be removed by another effect. If an effect defines a characteristic of the object ("[permanent] is [characteristic value]"), it's not granting an ability. (See rule 604.3.) Similarly, if an effect states a quality of that object ("[permanent]" is indestructible" or "[creature] is unblockable," for example), it's neither granting an ability nor setting a characteristic. (See rules 700.4 and 700.5.)
Scion remains the same object and that object was made unblockable by Inkshroud's ability until the end of the turn.
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Complaining about card prices accomplishes nothing. Read some Medina articles, learn to trade better, don’t act like the only way to do ANYTHING in this game is to price out decks and buy every single you ever need.
The nerve right? They don't suck nearly as bad as Angels.
Oh man. You better get that flame-retardant suit on quick! In the end, we all know Goblins are the greatest tribe, anyway.
Any creature that gives you a bomby effect when it dies seems good. Board getting wiped? Turn Scion into Seedguide Ash to propel you ahead several turns.
A new favorite from M11: Elixir of Immortality. It's just good. Especially in a Scion deck--protects from graveyard hate in a snap and lets you re-copy creatures again.
A new favorite from M11: Elixir of Immortality. It's just good. Especially in a Scion deck--protects from graveyard hate in a snap and lets you re-copy creatures again.
Wow, nice card, i think i missed it. It's even better than Feldon's Cane because: a) you get 5 life, b) it stays into your library and don't get exiled.
Really loved, i'll get a playset.
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"Now i lay you, down to rest, you'll never be more than second best" (Megadeth)
I'm gonna side with Arrogant here - it doesn't work as stated.
If all you have is Glen Elendra Archmage and Oran-Rief, the Vastwood, you can counter one spell, and then the Archmage will persist back but cannot gain a +1/+1 counter because it isn't green.
If you use Scion of the Ur-Dragon and Conspiracy to turn Scion into an Glen Elendra Archmage, you can sac it for the counter ability, at which point Scion will persist back as long as you don't allow it to go to the Command Zone (a prime time for someone to activate Reito Lantern, if you ask me). When Scion returns as itself with a -1/-1 counter, you can indeed nullify the counter using Oran-Rief, but it is no longer an Archmage and can no longer counter things. Also, Archmage is now in your graveyard, so you can't tutor it up again unless you have a way to throw it back in your library, which requires another card. At this point, you are attempting a five-color, five-card combo, which will be near impossible to pull off in EDH, with all of the counterspells, creature removal, enchantment removal, and graveyard hate that gets run.
Besides, why would you bother with such a complicated combo when the way to abuse Glen Elendra Archmage is simply to combine it with Sage of Fables? It's a two card combo that lets you counter each non-creature spell for just U.
All of these are Via scion + conspiracy, of course.
so yeah, i know it doesn't work with just archmage. The deck never intends to actually PLAY archmage, just turn scion into it.
you need scion + conspiracy + oran-rief (the entire deck is based around scion + conspiracy so the only additional thing you really need is oran-rief, and there's lots of tutors), but the rest of the combo does itself. scion tutors archmage, and ulamog, the infinitye gyre shuffles archmage back in. So your total cost is basically 4UG, but you can use ulamog whenever you want (and you'll probably be using it all the time to shuffle other stuff back in) to so it's really only 2UG. Not too shabby.
as far as graveyard hate like reito lantern, you would ofc kill reito lantern first, via a sunforgered bant charm or admonition angel or whatever. and if you're really paranoid, you can cast punish ignorance and then use naya charm (both cast and tutored off sunforger, which is tutored via stonehewer giant, which is tutored via scion) to return it to your hand so you can cast it from your hand in response to instant-speed graveyard hate. and even if the unimaginable happens and it gets shuffled in...you've got a ton of tutors so it shouldn't stay buried for long.
versus counterspells...well, it's all abilities and not a spell. Not very many people I've seen run stifle in EDH but that would definitely throw you off if they did.
versus creature removal, there's an easy way to avoid almost all of the instant-speed stuff, if you're worried...tutor up morphling first and use its shroud ability to protect scion until EOT (or it switches zones via archmage ofc).
vs enchantment removal, you should be sure to tutor up sunforger ASAP so you can naya charm is back, or use the eladamri's call to get eternal witness, or just use bant charm as a "if you kill my enchantment I'll bury your general (and then probably murder you with dragon tyrant)" sort of threat. or ofc just use countermagic.
@OP: why play inkshrouder when you could put Whispersilk Cloak on your general and then turn them into phage? Or play Mindslaver and make the blue player cast Bribery on you and select Phage.
Volrath's Shapeshifter is pretty excellent with all the creatures hitting your yard. You could also Scion this guy and be able to do all the stax effects you wanted because he keeps the shape changing ability.
whispersilk cloak works too, I liked the free equip ability and the haste on greaves more, though. The only time you need unblockability is when someone's about to get pwnt anyway, and as long as you've got greaves he's a flying + shroud attacker, so he'll still be able to get by many defenses without inkshrouder at all. also, it's useful to be able to discard stuff if you need to (namely fatties sitting uselessly in your hand). and finally, it's often more resilient...if you activate his tutor to find stonehewer giant, then activate the ability, they can respond with killspell. whereas, if you tutor for inkshrouder, if they respond with killspell you just respond with tutoring again (an FYI - you don't have to pick your tutor target until the ability RESOLVES). if they respond to the discard ability with killspell, you just respond with another discard.
But whispersilk is certainly a viable option too.
as far as mindslaver bribery...lol i hope that's a joke
cabal coffers is terrible in 5-color ofc, urborg is obviously quite good...can't remember why I didn't put it in. maybe i should. anyway, the reason i like crypt is (1) at worst, it's a cipt black land, and (2) since you can tutor whatever you want into your graveyard, you can use it to generate a lot of mana on subsequent turns...there are 7 black creatures in the deck (not including scion), so that's not too bad. It's not amazing but the deck's ability to toss whatever it likes into its graveyard makes it a potential goldmine for mana acceleration.
VS is one of my favorite cards but he's pointless in this deck, lol...the top card is probably the one you just tutored for, so he's just a copy of whatever he already was, unless you add in graveyard moving-around affects like tortured existence. I thought about dimir doppelganger but I don't like the idea of losing them permanently, or scion becoming not-scion permanently (until he changes zones at least).
I get the feeling you're just padding your postcount, but godo is pretty crap for the deck (as are most triggered ability creatures...and cip ability creatures) because scion won't be able to change shape again in the turn, so he'll just be a 3/3 attacking twice. I'll take dragon tyrant instead, thanks.
Oh man. You better get that flame-retardant suit on quick! In the end, we all know Goblins are the greatest tribe, anyway.
Any creature that gives you a bomby effect when it dies seems good. Board getting wiped? Turn Scion into Seedguide Ash to propel you ahead several turns.
A new favorite from M11: Elixir of Immortality. It's just good. Especially in a Scion deck--protects from graveyard hate in a snap and lets you re-copy creatures again.
goblins are slightly more interesting but still sorta boring for my tastes.
well, obviously any gy-effect creatures is bad to turn scion into since i need him in my general zone if the unthinkable happens and he dies.
elixir of immortality seems great in a dragon-based scion without ulamog, but ulamog is a lot more consistent in this deck since scion can tutor him.
thanks for all the comments guys! Time for more starcraft for me
well, obviously any gy-effect creatures is bad to turn scion into since i need him in my general zone if the unthinkable happens and he dies.
thanks for all the comments guys! Time for more starcraft for me
I realize you're not going for a reanimator-style deck, but you should think about dropping in a couple spells since you WILL have an opportunity to deliver smashing blows with them. Beacon of Unrest and Rise from the Grave are my favorites because they hit any graveyard. Zombify is also good since it's only B3. Reanimate is cheap and fast, obviously, though the life loss can hurt later.
I get the feeling you're just padding your postcount, but godo is pretty crap for the deck (as are most triggered ability creatures...and cip ability creatures) because scion won't be able to change shape again in the turn, so he'll just be a 3/3 attacking twice. I'll take dragon tyrant instead, thanks.
I was thinking about Godo's synergy with Conspiracy mostly. If your plan is to fetch and play conspiracy, then you could benefit from the extra attacks. But you're absolutely right that Dragon Tyrant outclasses him in face beating.
And I could never hope to pad my poor little post count on the meager 2 posts a year I get by with.
I realize you're not going for a reanimator-style deck, but you should think about dropping in a couple spells since you WILL have an opportunity to deliver smashing blows with them. Beacon of Unrest and Rise from the Grave are my favorites because they hit any graveyard. Zombify is also good since it's only B3. Reanimate is cheap and fast, obviously, though the life loss can hurt later.
well I've got that pulsemage advocate which is conveniently tutorable, I figured that was good enough. Can't target enemy GY's but given all the nasties in my deck it's probably fine. and the downside is virtually nonexistent in multiplayer...(1) there's probably plenty of useless crap in gys, and (2) you can usually get that person to temp ally with you, making it an advantage instead of a disadvantage. I probably can't use him every turn, but same is true of other reanimator spells.
I was thinking about Godo's synergy with Conspiracy mostly. If your plan is to fetch and play conspiracy, then you could benefit from the extra attacks. But you're absolutely right that Dragon Tyrant outclasses him in face beating.
And I could never hope to pad my poor little post count on the meager 2 posts a year I get by with.
hmm, what do you mean "synergy" with conspiracy? everyone is tutorable with conspiracy but I don't understand why he'd be any better than one of the more powerful attackers. And stonehewer is much better at tutoring equipment.
So I've finally gotten to playtest this thing after waiting all summer, and it actually did quite well, although I only got to use it in one multiplayer EDH game so far (the rest of the evening was an ungodly long game where I used my also-never-used-before sen triplets deck, which eventually pretty much ended in a tie because the combo players kept getting stopped by me and the other control player and no one could win and everyone was sick of it...anyway...).
at any rate, it won the game I got to use it in, which was pretty sweet, I think it could still use some tweaking, though. Once conspiracy and scion were online, he was essentially unstoppable. In order to get him safely "on", though, I had to wait until another player was in a dangerously powerful position, so everyone was eager for my help. Then once he took a dragon tyrant to the face, the savra player conveniently forced a sacrifice right after I played my academy rector enabling conspiracy and everyone quickly died to a phage'd scion.
I think the shusher provides adequate counter protection (few people will counter a tutor since they can counter the spell played from it instead, and once he's in my hand it's too late to do anything about it), but I still definitely fear early-game retaliation out of fear of my general. Obviously using another powerful player as an excuse to play it is ideal, but without that sort of thing happening I might not be able to play it safely, and end up getting beaten down. So basically I think I need more defense, especially if that defense can double as mana production or something else useful. alternately, I could keep the defense about the same, but put in more non-conspiracy tutors so I can fetch up my defensive pieces.
Any suggestions for powerful defensive pieces? I went through a lot of them but I may have missed some.
Me, I like shapeshifters.
So that's why, when I wanted to make a sweet deck around the shapeshifteriest general around, I figured the only want to abuse Scion of the Ur-Dragon properly was to combine him with Conspiracy so I'm not limited to the boring ol' dragons. Although I do keep around a few dragons in case I need to win without conspiracy.
This deck was murderously difficult to build, and probably to play, so I'm looking for all sorts of help in fine tuning
By Type:
1 Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Creatures (28)
1 Academy Rector
1 Admonition Angel
1 Amoeboid Changeling
1 Arcanis the Omnipotent
1 Azorius Guildmage
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Cephalid Inkshrouder
1 Dragon Tyrant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Infernal Denizen
1 Mageta the Lion
1 Mistmeadow Witch
1 Nicol Bolas
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Pulsemage Advocate
1 Quicksilver Dragon
1 Scourge of Kher Ridges
1 Shapesharer
1 Sphinx Ambassador
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Stonehewer Giant
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Withered Wretch
1 Wrexial, the Risen Deep
1 Zur the Enchanter
Enchantments (4)
1 Conspiracy
1 Mystic Remora
1 Sterling Grove
1 Training Grounds
1 Coalition Relic
1 Golgari Signet
1 Izzet Signet
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Mana Crypt
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Pariah's Shield
1 Scroll Rack
1 Simic Signet
1 Sol Ring
1 Spectral Searchlight
1 Sunforger
Instants (11)
1 Bant Charm
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Insidious Dreams
1 Mirrorweave
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Naya Charm
1 Punish Ignorance
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Wordly Tutor
Sorceries (5)
1 Brainspoil
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Sylvan Tutor
Lands (39)
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Boros Garrison
1 City of Brass
1 Crypt of Agadeem
1 Darkwater Catacombs
1 Dust Bowl
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Fetid Heath
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Grand Coliseum
1 Graven Cairns
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Khalni Garden
1 Kher Keep
1 Kor Haven
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Mirrodin's Core
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 River of Tears
1 Rupture Spire
1 Seaside Citadel
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Skycloud Expanse
1 Springjack Pasture
1 Sungrass Prairie
1 Tolaria West
1 Vivid Creek
1 Vivid Grove
1 Vivid Marsh
1 Vivid Meadow
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Yavimaya Hollow
By Role:
1 Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Enhancers (2)
1 Conspiracy
1 Training grounds
Dragons...feh! (6)
1 Amoeboid Changeling
1 Dragon Tyrant
1 Nicol Bolas
1 Quicksilver Dragon
1 Scourge of Kher Ridges
1 Shapesharer
Conspiracy targets (14)
1 Admonition Angel
1 Arcanis the Omnipotent
1 Azorius Guildmage
1 Cephalid Inkshrouder
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Infernal Denizen
1 Mageta the Lion
1 Morphling
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Sphinx Ambassador
1 Stonehewer Giant
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Withered Wretch
1 Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Tutors (15)
1 Academy Rector
1 Brainspoil
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Insidious Dreams
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Scroll Rack
1 Sterling Grove
1 Sylvan Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Zur the Enchanter
1 Bant Charm
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Mirrorweave
1 Mistmeadow Witch
1 Mystic Remora
1 Naya Charm
1 Pariah's Shield
1 Pulsemage Advocate
1 Punish Ignorance
1 Sunforger
1 Vexing Shusher
Acceleration (10)
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Coalition Relic
1 Golgari Signet
1 Izzet Signet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Simic Signet
1 Sol Ring
1 Spectral Searchlight
1 Weathered Wayfarer
Lands (39)
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Boros Garrison
1 City of Brass
1 Crypt of Agadeem
1 Darkwater Catacombs
1 Dust Bowl
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Fetid Heath
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Grand Coliseum
1 Graven Cairns
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Khalni Garden
1 Kher Keep
1 Kor Haven
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Mirrodin's Core
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 River of Tears
1 Rupture Spire
1 Seaside Citadel
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Skycloud Expanse
1 Springjack Pasture
1 Sungrass Prairie
1 Tolaria West
1 Vivid Creek
1 Vivid Grove
1 Vivid Marsh
1 Vivid Meadow
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Yavimaya Hollow
General Strategy:
Cool combos/reasons for cards:
All of these are Via scion + conspiracy, of course.
Cephalid Inkshrouder + Phage the Untouchable = someone just lost the game.
Admonition angel = exile with no return
Infernal Denizen = snatch creatures with no downside
Glen Elendra Archmage + Oran-Rief, the Vastwood = counter a spell every turn.
shapesharer + amoeboid changeling = destroy an enemy general and another creature - usable without conspiracy too!
ulamog, the infinite gyre/morphling/mistmeadow witch = evade most anything. You can choose morphling as the first creature you tutor and give it shroud until EOT, so it's protected from whatever. Ulamog is an easy response to wraths, etc. For nasty crap like hallowed burial you've got mistmeadow witch, or just counter it with archmage.
Pulsemage Advocate + anything! = tutor up any creature you want in play (except phage, lol!), then pop it into play with advocate! in a multiplayer game you can make a friend by returning some crap to their hand, or give them stuff to smite your enemies.
eternal witness + mistmeadow witch = unlimited recursion.
zur the enchanter = tutors sterling grove to fetch conspiracy, or give your conspiracy shroud. and he gets you training grounds, which rapidly accelerates scion's capabilities.
Stonehewer Giant = fetches greaves for permashroud, pariah's shield to combo with ulamog, or...sunforger!!!
Sunforger = the recursion with ulamog gives infinite recursion. bant charm is the ultimate threat for your enemies, punish ignorance is the nastiest counterspell evar, Naya Charm gives another recursion engine, mirrorweave is just....oh god, my mind cannot begin to comprehend the possible permutations of having mirrorweave, scion, conspiracy, and shapesharer available. dear christ. And there's a few good tutors that are forge-able too.
Crypt of Agadeem = potentially a very nice mana source with your ability to dump creatures in your graveyard.
What I need help with:
-What lands should I take out/change? I'm trying to make a semi-budget mana setup - no fetches/duals, but most else is fair game. I'd like to cut some utility lands for more fixing. Any ideas for a better mana setup?
-What other awesome creatures and combos can be used with scion?!?!?!
-Not sure if I have good enough of defense. I figure I can always tutor stinkweed imp if people are hating too much before my combo comes out, not many people will attack into a reusable suicide bomber.
-are there too many tutor creatures in the deck? some of them are castable, but stuff like dragon tyrant are there exclusively for tutoring.
-Are there any better tutors for conspiracy, or just all-around tutors? Before anyone suggests beseech the Queen, I don't like it because it's too slow. by 5 lands I should be dropping scion or conspiracy.
-mana-accelerant-wise, any other things i need to add? probably noble hierarch, now that I think about it, but other ideas are welcome. I haven't built a 5-color EDH deck before.
-any other sweet sunforger targets? I love sunforger and would love to make it a major part of my deck, since it's so easy for me to tutor up and start using.
Thanks for looking!
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
does not work.
as well, you should throw Living Death in this deck :]
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=259853
The build I had in mind was more piled high with Eldrazi that would shuffle themselves back in, with fewer utilities. I like your build more, though.
B Infect
BW Death & Taxes
UBR Affinity
R Burn
UBR Sac Land Tendrils
UBRG Oops, All Spells
WUG Phelddagrif
GGG Omnath, Locus of Mana
BBB Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
RRR Ashling, the Pilgrim
BBW Teysa, Scion of Orzhov
UUU Talrand, Sky Summoner
UUB Vela the Night-Clad
GGB Vhati il-Dal
RUW Ruhan of the Fomori
I built one of these.... but with the timespiral dragons. I would suggest Intet, the Dreamer and possibly Teneb, the Harvester as being rather abusable with that general and your toolbox of creatures. Granted.. they are dragons... but not boring ones.
As for land.. erm.. I ran a few basics and Terramorphic Expanse and now that new functional reprint of it. Cheap and deck thinning, LOL.
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I'm pretty sure the combo does. when scion/archmage changes zones, it forgets that it was an archmage and becomes scion again, which is a green creature.
the counters cancel each other out, as per rule....something or other, look it up yourself.
resurrecting all my stuff is certainly a traditional way to win with scion, but I'm not into tradition. I can do that just as well without conspiracy. Shapeshifting ftw is way more fun imo, and the game should pretty much be a lock once you've got the machine going.
i knew someone was going to say that. I agree (although I've seen very few people actually use those cards, since they tend to draw massive hate) but frankly I'd have to neuter my manabase with a shovel to make it even moderately resilient to such things. I prefer the reliability of my nonbasic mana engine, even if it does get totally screwed by certain cards. Anyway, as long as scion is already in play I can always dragon tyrant the bastard into oblivion.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
I'm gonna side with Arrogant here - it doesn't work as stated.
If all you have is Glen Elendra Archmage and Oran-Rief, the Vastwood, you can counter one spell, and then the Archmage will persist back but cannot gain a +1/+1 counter because it isn't green.
If you use Scion of the Ur-Dragon and Conspiracy to turn Scion into an Glen Elendra Archmage, you can sac it for the counter ability, at which point Scion will persist back as long as you don't allow it to go to the Command Zone (a prime time for someone to activate Reito Lantern, if you ask me). When Scion returns as itself with a -1/-1 counter, you can indeed nullify the counter using Oran-Rief, but it is no longer an Archmage and can no longer counter things. Also, Archmage is now in your graveyard, so you can't tutor it up again unless you have a way to throw it back in your library, which requires another card. At this point, you are attempting a five-color, five-card combo, which will be near impossible to pull off in EDH, with all of the counterspells, creature removal, enchantment removal, and graveyard hate that gets run.
Besides, why would you bother with such a complicated combo when the way to abuse Glen Elendra Archmage is simply to combine it with Sage of Fables? It's a two card combo that lets you counter each non-creature spell for just U.
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So Cephalid Inkshrouder doesn't give evasion to Phage, Glen Elandra + Oran Rief don't work as FunkyDragon stated, Ameboid Changeling does not destroy a legendary creature, and so on.
I like the idea of making Scion into a toolbox with Conspiracy, just wanted to state that the creature type things, but doesn't mess with it's name.
I'm pretty sure that names have nothing to do with what he's trying to accomplish. The majority of things that he's attempting to do all involve multiple scion activations in order to stack a bunch of abilities onto it, as with the Inkshrouder + Phage example. Ameboid Changeling does in fact combo with Shapesharer to legend rule any targetable legendary creature.
Unfortunately, Inkshrouder + Phage doesn't work, either. This is a common error\oversight for newcomers to Scion: once you activate its ability, and let it resolve, it LOSES the ability until the next end step. So you can't copy Inkshrouder, attack (unblockable), then change into Phage for the win. Nice thought, but doesn't work. There's no way to stack it for these kinds of tricks. The best thing to do with multiple activations is get guys into the 'yard and reanimate them.
The best, cleverest, most awesome abuse of Conspiracy I have devised is [creatures] + Nissa Revane.
Could you:
Attack
1. Stack scion ability 1
2. Stack scion ability 2
2nd scion ability resolves > Turn into Inkshrouder
-After this resolves you would need to respond to the first scion ability; the one still on the stack. I'm not sure if this is legal or not.
3. Respond to 'scion ability 1' with Inkshrouder's ability.
Or is it that as soon as the stack starts resolving, you can't respond to those triggers? Who plays by the rules anyway!? This is casual dammit; stack misinterpretations happen in a casual environment at 3 am.
@OP: why play inkshrouder when you could put Whispersilk Cloak on your general and then turn them into phage? Or play Mindslaver and make the blue player cast Bribery on you and select Phage.
Get rid of Crypt of Agadeem. It only gives you mana for the black creatures in your GY. You'd be better served with Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth and Cabal Coffers if that was the intent you were going for.
Volrath's Shapeshifter is pretty excellent with all the creatures hitting your yard. You could also Scion this guy and be able to do all the stax effects you wanted because he keeps the shape changing ability.
so you could:
1. Attack with Scion
2. Activate its ability, searching for Phage
3. Respond to the first activation by activating again searching for Inkshroud
4. Let the first trigger resolve. Scion becomes a copy of Inkshroud.
5. Respond to the resolution by discarding a card and giving Scion Shroud and Unblockability.
6. The first activation resolves, turning Scion into a Phage.
The only thing I'm unsure of is if Scion turning into Phage will overwrite all of his current abilities (Shroud/Unblockable) as part of becoming a "copy". If someone could clarify that would be good.
Also, you need Darksteel Ingot for sure and Reflecting Pool seems good and combos with the Vivid lands.
Edit: Also, Condemn and Oblation are good ways to tuck a general.
Aha, I believe this way works. I wouldn't have thought to do it all during the attack step. I'm pretty sure the permanent changing names (and other attributes) from "Inkshrouder" to "Phage" wouldn't affect the fact that it (the permanent) has been given shroud\unblockable until EoT.
Well done, sir. Conspiracy + Scion of the Ur-Dragon + Cephalid Inkshrouder + Phage the Untouchable = win.
If I understand rule 112.11 correctly, then Scion shouldn't lose unblockability when it changes to Phage:
Scion remains the same object and that object was made unblockable by Inkshroud's ability until the end of the turn.
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The nerve right? They don't suck nearly as bad as Angels.
Oh man. You better get that flame-retardant suit on quick!
Any creature that gives you a bomby effect when it dies seems good. Board getting wiped? Turn Scion into Seedguide Ash to propel you ahead several turns.
A new favorite from M11: Elixir of Immortality. It's just good. Especially in a Scion deck--protects from graveyard hate in a snap and lets you re-copy creatures again.
Wow, nice card, i think i missed it. It's even better than Feldon's Cane because: a) you get 5 life, b) it stays into your library and don't get exiled.
Really loved, i'll get a playset.
Sorry I would have posted it earlier but I've been frittering away my time on starcraft 2
so yeah, i know it doesn't work with just archmage. The deck never intends to actually PLAY archmage, just turn scion into it.
you need scion + conspiracy + oran-rief (the entire deck is based around scion + conspiracy so the only additional thing you really need is oran-rief, and there's lots of tutors), but the rest of the combo does itself. scion tutors archmage, and ulamog, the infinitye gyre shuffles archmage back in. So your total cost is basically 4UG, but you can use ulamog whenever you want (and you'll probably be using it all the time to shuffle other stuff back in) to so it's really only 2UG. Not too shabby.
as far as graveyard hate like reito lantern, you would ofc kill reito lantern first, via a sunforgered bant charm or admonition angel or whatever. and if you're really paranoid, you can cast punish ignorance and then use naya charm (both cast and tutored off sunforger, which is tutored via stonehewer giant, which is tutored via scion) to return it to your hand so you can cast it from your hand in response to instant-speed graveyard hate. and even if the unimaginable happens and it gets shuffled in...you've got a ton of tutors so it shouldn't stay buried for long.
versus counterspells...well, it's all abilities and not a spell. Not very many people I've seen run stifle in EDH but that would definitely throw you off if they did.
versus creature removal, there's an easy way to avoid almost all of the instant-speed stuff, if you're worried...tutor up morphling first and use its shroud ability to protect scion until EOT (or it switches zones via archmage ofc).
vs enchantment removal, you should be sure to tutor up sunforger ASAP so you can naya charm is back, or use the eladamri's call to get eternal witness, or just use bant charm as a "if you kill my enchantment I'll bury your general (and then probably murder you with dragon tyrant)" sort of threat. or ofc just use countermagic.
whispersilk cloak works too, I liked the free equip ability and the haste on greaves more, though. The only time you need unblockability is when someone's about to get pwnt anyway, and as long as you've got greaves he's a flying + shroud attacker, so he'll still be able to get by many defenses without inkshrouder at all. also, it's useful to be able to discard stuff if you need to (namely fatties sitting uselessly in your hand). and finally, it's often more resilient...if you activate his tutor to find stonehewer giant, then activate the ability, they can respond with killspell. whereas, if you tutor for inkshrouder, if they respond with killspell you just respond with tutoring again (an FYI - you don't have to pick your tutor target until the ability RESOLVES). if they respond to the discard ability with killspell, you just respond with another discard.
But whispersilk is certainly a viable option too.
as far as mindslaver bribery...lol i hope that's a joke
cabal coffers is terrible in 5-color ofc, urborg is obviously quite good...can't remember why I didn't put it in. maybe i should. anyway, the reason i like crypt is (1) at worst, it's a cipt black land, and (2) since you can tutor whatever you want into your graveyard, you can use it to generate a lot of mana on subsequent turns...there are 7 black creatures in the deck (not including scion), so that's not too bad. It's not amazing but the deck's ability to toss whatever it likes into its graveyard makes it a potential goldmine for mana acceleration.
VS is one of my favorite cards but he's pointless in this deck, lol...the top card is probably the one you just tutored for, so he's just a copy of whatever he already was, unless you add in graveyard moving-around affects like tortured existence. I thought about dimir doppelganger but I don't like the idea of losing them permanently, or scion becoming not-scion permanently (until he changes zones at least).
I get the feeling you're just padding your postcount, but godo is pretty crap for the deck (as are most triggered ability creatures...and cip ability creatures) because scion won't be able to change shape again in the turn, so he'll just be a 3/3 attacking twice. I'll take dragon tyrant instead, thanks.
it's not so much that they suck, as it is that they are big boring pieces of meat with nary a brain cell betwixt them.
ARRR!
goblins are slightly more interesting but still sorta boring for my tastes.
well, obviously any gy-effect creatures is bad to turn scion into since i need him in my general zone if the unthinkable happens and he dies.
elixir of immortality seems great in a dragon-based scion without ulamog, but ulamog is a lot more consistent in this deck since scion can tutor him.
thanks for all the comments guys! Time for more starcraft for me
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
I realize you're not going for a reanimator-style deck, but you should think about dropping in a couple spells since you WILL have an opportunity to deliver smashing blows with them. Beacon of Unrest and Rise from the Grave are my favorites because they hit any graveyard. Zombify is also good since it's only B3. Reanimate is cheap and fast, obviously, though the life loss can hurt later.
I was thinking about Godo's synergy with Conspiracy mostly. If your plan is to fetch and play conspiracy, then you could benefit from the extra attacks. But you're absolutely right that Dragon Tyrant outclasses him in face beating.
And I could never hope to pad my poor little post count on the meager 2 posts a year I get by with.
Your sig made that hilarious.
so I don't get a spam warning I have a scion and have been thinking about building a deck around it.
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well I've got that pulsemage advocate which is conveniently tutorable, I figured that was good enough. Can't target enemy GY's but given all the nasties in my deck it's probably fine. and the downside is virtually nonexistent in multiplayer...(1) there's probably plenty of useless crap in gys, and (2) you can usually get that person to temp ally with you, making it an advantage instead of a disadvantage. I probably can't use him every turn, but same is true of other reanimator spells.
hmm, what do you mean "synergy" with conspiracy? everyone is tutorable with conspiracy but I don't understand why he'd be any better than one of the more powerful attackers. And stonehewer is much better at tutoring equipment.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
at any rate, it won the game I got to use it in, which was pretty sweet, I think it could still use some tweaking, though. Once conspiracy and scion were online, he was essentially unstoppable. In order to get him safely "on", though, I had to wait until another player was in a dangerously powerful position, so everyone was eager for my help. Then once he took a dragon tyrant to the face, the savra player conveniently forced a sacrifice right after I played my academy rector enabling conspiracy and everyone quickly died to a phage'd scion.
I think the shusher provides adequate counter protection (few people will counter a tutor since they can counter the spell played from it instead, and once he's in my hand it's too late to do anything about it), but I still definitely fear early-game retaliation out of fear of my general. Obviously using another powerful player as an excuse to play it is ideal, but without that sort of thing happening I might not be able to play it safely, and end up getting beaten down. So basically I think I need more defense, especially if that defense can double as mana production or something else useful. alternately, I could keep the defense about the same, but put in more non-conspiracy tutors so I can fetch up my defensive pieces.
Any suggestions for powerful defensive pieces? I went through a lot of them but I may have missed some.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR