Before we get started, let me say that this is not a control deck. As good as Trygon Predator, Yavimaya Elder, and Tradewind Rider may be, they are usually too slow for an all-in combo deck like this. If these are the types of cards you are interested in, Miscalcul8tedRisk has an excellent primer on the "conventional" Momir Vig strategy here!
This is basically an elf combo deck that uses Momir Vig as a tutor and card advantage engine. Ideally, you ramp into your general as fast as possible (turn 3 or 4 consistently), then vomit your deck onto the table either that turn or the next and go infinite on the spot. So how do we accomplish this?
Use all that mana to cast Momir Vig. If you have something like Glimpse of Nature and some spare mana, cast it and go to Phase 3. If you have Mind Bend or any of its cousins and some spare mana, cast it and change Vig's second ability to "green," then go to Phase 3. If you have neither of these, use Momir Vig to tutor up Primordial Sage or Magus of the Future, then go to Phase 3 anyway.
Phase 3: Win the Game
Essentially, by circumventing Vig's second color requirement, you get a free Eladamri's Call whenever you cast a green creature spell. From here, you have several lines of play. Here are the main ones:
It happens; maybe you got hit by Sadistic Sacrament, or you got a few tutors out of Momir Vig before people caught on and he got Oblationed. You can always play this as a traditional elf deck, with blue for card draw. If you think this is going to happen, just try to churn out dudes and drop Joraga Warcaller.
Once upon a time, when Vig was inactive, I combo'd out late in the game using Sages of the Anima with Glimpse of Nature. It isn't reliable or anything, but never give up hope if you can keep the cards flowing.
Pros
+ Fast clock
+ Consistency through tutoring and redundancy
+ Gaddock Teeg doesn't bother us at all
+ Versatile win conditions
+ Lots of fun to play
So here it is, ready for community review. I'm not going to pretend like this is well-tuned or anything, or that I know how to play the deck optimally, but any EDH deck that combos off by turn 5 with a great deal of regularity has to have some potential. Any thoughts or ideas?
Those are both excellent suggestions. I wanted to have once slot dedicated to a bounce spell, and Venser is lots better than Selkie Hedge-Mage, who doesn't bounce something half the time. Man-O'-War was my other option, but Venser is more versatile, which is what a silver bullet slot needs.
IMO, Vig, tribal or not, should have as many utility bounce outlets available to it as possible. Venser, Man-O'-War, and Aether Adept included. Venser is much more versatile but keep in mind both Man-O'-War and the Adept sneak in under Aluren which is huge. The Hedge-Mage was garbage for me too, however.
I like the way that you approached the deck and in fact one of my initial design considerations for the deck way back when was to go all elf-ball with it but at the time it didn't have quite the toolbox that it does now (and it appears to be much more consistent by the looks of things).
I know it's a decent card on its own but upon closer inspection I think you'll notice that Wood Elves is a nombo with Momir Vig as are any green creatures with a search and shuffle ETB ability (but at least with those others you can elect not to search).
Also, Equilibrium is essentially Cloudstone #2 but can also be used defensively to bounce opposing creatures. Additionally you'll probably get more milage out of Opposition than even I can with my build and it absolutely wrecks in 1v1.
Hey miscalcul8tedrisk, thanks for the input! This is my first time ever playing Momir Vig, so it always helps to hear from someone with a lot of experience. I'm mostly just goldfishing it ATM, and I don't know if I can speed up the critical turn any more than I already have (more Sleight of Mind might be in order), so now I'm working on improving consistency and resiliency without sacrificing speed.
IMO, Vig, tribal or not, should have as many utility bounce outlets available to it as possible. Venser, Man-O'-War, and Aether Adept included. Venser is much more versatile but keep in mind both Man-O'-War and the Adept sneak in under Aluren which is huge. The Hedge-Mage was garbage for me too, however.
I like the way that you approached the deck and in fact one of my initial design considerations for the deck way back when was to go all elf-ball with it but at the time it didn't have quite the toolbox that it does now (and it appears to be much more consistent by the looks of things).
I'm honestly a little afraid to cram in a bunch of off-color, non-elves. This may be pure ignorance on my part, but why do you need so many different bounce spells in a fast combo deck like this? In this deck, the bounce has nothing to do with tempo -- Venser, Shaper Savant is there so I can tutor him up and flash him in EOT to deal with a problematic permanent (like Rule of Law, Sphere of Resistance, or Linvala, Keeper of Silence), then win the following turn. Man-O'-War might be helpful, but my first impression is that Aether Adept might be overkill.
And yes, the more elves they print, the better. I don't even think this deck would have been playable before Heritage Druid and such!
I know it's a decent card on its own but upon closer inspection I think you'll notice that Wood Elves is a nombo with Momir Vig as are any green creatures with a search and shuffle ETB ability (but at least with those others you can elect not to search).
Yeah, I found that out the hard way :(. But on the other hand, I really only use Wood Elves to get my Breeding Pool when I draw into him (pre-Vig), but otherwise I never tutor him up. He may get the axe eventually, but for now, he's fine. I guess if you're really desperate, the shuffle downside can be overcome with some Teferi timing shenanigans.
Also, Equilibrium is essentially Cloudstone #2 but can also be used defensively to bounce opposing creatures. Additionally you'll probably get more milage out of Opposition than even I can with my build and it absolutely wrecks in 1v1.
Multani's Acolyte is a slightly worse Elvish Visionary but still might be worthwhile.
Equilibrium was in here initially, but I removed it -- this might have been the wrong move. The way I figured, it was another wincon, and not much else. By the time I could tutor it up with Drift of Phantasms, I might as well tutor up Cloudstone Curio. It's worth testing, though.
Opposition looks great for buying time, tapping their lands EOT to set up a combo turn, and it's a must-counter for other blue decks. Another great card that is worth testing!
Thank you so much for your input, dude. You've been a tremendous help, and I hope to hear your thoughts after you give it a whirl or whatever.
One last thing I forgot to mention in the original post: the Future Sight/Sensei's Divining Top combo is in here too, so don't forget you have that option! The sad thing is, it's usually worse than the elf combo brokenness you have available.
Some thougts from my goldfish style testing (probably completely irrelevant, but anyway...):
Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain to draw into the searched creatures and smooth draws.
Windfall, Timetwister, Diminshing Returns, Time Reversal, Time Spiral for extra gravy in multiplayer. My initial thoughts on the deck were that it might be too easy to disrupt by just countering a key spell of two. Now there are 5 more to try to counter! Added Boseiju as well as it obviously worked well with these. Mystical Tutor too.
It's goldfishing very well so far. There are still more than enough creatures to make the combo work. Could be worth someone actually trying these cards in a game. Thoughts?
Some thougts from my goldfish style testing (probably completely irrelevant, but anyway...):
Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain to draw into the searched creatures and smooth draws.
Windfall, Timetwister, Diminshing Returns, Time Reversal, Time Spiral for extra gravy in multiplayer. My initial thoughts on the deck were that it might be too easy to disrupt by just countering a key spell of two. Now there are 5 more to try to counter! Added Boseiju as well as it obviously worked well with these. Mystical Tutor too.
It's goldfishing very well so far. There are still more than enough creatures to make the combo work. Could be worth someone actually trying these cards in a game. Thoughts?
Thanks for taking the time to test it; all of my "testing" so far has been goldfishing as well, and while I haven't updated this thread in the past few days, I've been tweaking the deck a lot.
I like the idea of the Brainstorm effects, mainly because the least consistent part of the deck is having lands in your opening hand (though I still think 31 or 32 is the correct number). The real trick is finding room!
Honestly, I think the deck has too many win conditions, so maybe let's start there. I've boiled it down to this: if you can get Momir Vig "online" and then play and activate Heritage Druid, you can win on the spot. Other cards in hand, like Earthcraft or Lightning Greaves, enable alternate routes to victory, but Heritage Druid and Magus of the Future let you go off without any additional help. With that in mind, let's take out some of the "win more" cards and borderline creatures:
Now we have some breathing room. In addition to your idea of the cantrips, at least one Timetwister effect, and Mystical Tutor, here are some cards I'd like to fit in:
Crop Rotation (because Gaea's Cradle is bonkers) Sleight of Mind (one of these in your opener makes a turn 4 win realistic!)
And we can fill in the gaps with cheap/free countermagic (Pact of Negation, Force of Will, maybe even Intervene) and more mana elves (even Heart Warden is quite playable). Do these changes sound reasonable to you? The deck would become slightly more reliant on its general, but at the same time it becomes more focused and more difficult to stop. If we decided to make it a bit slower and more versatile, I think that's when utility like Skyshroud Poacher would really shine. It's unclear which strategy is better overall, though.
I'm excited to see where this deck will go. As with most of my decks, it was mainly just a thought experiment, but I find myself winning on turn 4 30% of the time and turn 5 about 50-60% of the time, assuming one free mulligan. That's ridiculous. I hope you'll continue to help me out on this, because your input is much appreciated!
You'll notice I really trimmed the non mana producing creatures. Seems fine still but I might have gone too far. I guess 7 twister effects might be a tad too much. I like all but Time Reversal and Diminishing Returns though.
First, a joke: What's the most broken tool that's banned or restricted in most forums?
Necropostance.
Sorry Viper. (There is a massive update in the OP, though)
Because Narglfrob mentioned it in a recent thread, I've turned my attention back to this deck. I've been slowly collecting bits and pieces I need for this deck over the past month or two, and it's about half way there without me having to spend a dime. I might bite the bullet and sink the $20 needed to finish it out (without Rofellos and fetchlands, of course).
This deck still has tons of potential, but because I'm not really sure where to start when it comes to optimization, here's what I did: except for a few key silver bullet creatures, I took out all the counterspells and stuff and instead focused on making the combo as fast and consistent as possible. My reasoning is that once the core of the deck is streamlined, it will be easier to tell what is necessary and what isn't so we can slot in spells dedicated for protection. I also finally got around to updating the decklists with the changes discussed above.
In essence, by cutting the unnecessary wincons and midrange control-ish stuff, we made room for maximum mana dorkage and card filtering. I came across Primordial Sage and it turned out to be unbelievably good -- it also cuts us some slack on the manabase, as it's essentially a green Magus of the Future, which used to be the most important card in the deck. I haven't actually tested Timetwister with Mystical Tutor yet, but I'm working on it. And Sancho was correct: the cantrips are wonderful. Come to think of it, they always are.
The deck gets occasional turn 4 kills, clockwork turn 5 kills, and at the latest turn 6 unless you kept a terrible opening hand. With Primordial Sage in the deck, Vig can now allow you to tutor into the entire combo provided you draw a green creature, which is a given. Without countermagic, it's more fragile than ever, but it's also faster than ever, and more consistent than any combo deck in the format (IMO). I could use some help tuning this, if anyone's interested.
This deck looks really awesome. Is this using the 1v1 banlist? Either way more fast mana might be nice here. My first thought was Elvish Spirit Guide which can be a tutor with Vig in a pinch as well. Chrome Mox seems like another good option since it can boost your mana and you can just imprint the second Mind Bend effect card or random Brainstorms that you don't need. It's also essentially a "free" add since you could cut a land for it.
I'd suggest that, too. It works really well in my Vig deck, especially with Skyshroud Poacher or Imperious Perfect. You basically don't even need Vig at that point.
Stealing or altering someone's mana doubling effect//color based removal could be useful, but a naturalize on a stick is better in case of emergencies.
If you're using it to allow Vig to utilize both tutor triggers, i would still think countermagic is the way to go. Protect Vig first - you can take your time with winning, and if someone happens to have an instant-speed wipe, if you've overextended (which seems to be the nature of the deck) then being able to stop it is really relevant.
Straight up counter-magic seems infinitely superior to color alteration.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
I'd suggest that, too. It works really well in my Vig deck, especially with Skyshroud Poacher or Imperious Perfect. You basically don't even need Vig at that point.
That is awesome. Why did I not realize it before? Once you get Momir Vig online, Intruder Alarm will probably always play second fiddle to Cloudstone Curio, but the Alarm is also very good without Momir Vig. The Skyshroud Poacher combo is amazing, too. In it goes!
Quote from Donald »
This deck looks really awesome. Is this using the 1v1 banlist? Either way more fast mana might be nice here. My first thought was Elvish Spirit Guide which can be a tutor with Vig in a pinch as well. Chrome Mox seems like another good option since it can boost your mana and you can just imprint the second Mind Bend effect card or random Brainstorms that you don't need. It's also essentially a "free" add since you could cut a land for it.
I didn't really build this deck with either banlist in mind; it just happened to be legal by all standards, which is cool.
I've tried Elvish Spirit Guide before. I only drew it twice, but I hated it both times. It ability is useful, but it's a pain to cast when I actually need to tutor with Vig. Fast mana in general seems like a good idea, though, from Chrome Mox to Sol Ring to Mana Crypt. All of these can probably replace lands, so that's not too difficult. I guess that also means we're using the multiplayer banlist. Thanks for the suggestions!
Quote from Gaka »
Confirming the deck works and unless you have instant speed disruption, there isn't a whole lot you can do about it.
Stealing or altering someone's mana doubling effect//color based removal could be useful, but a naturalize on a stick is better in case of emergencies.
If you're using it to allow Vig to utilize both tutor triggers, i would still think countermagic is the way to go. Protect Vig first - you can take your time with winning, and if someone happens to have an instant-speed wipe, if you've overextended (which seems to be the nature of the deck) then being able to stop it is really relevant.
Straight up counter-magic seems infinitely superior to color alteration.
Trygon Predator's role is fulfilled by Viridian Zealot and Venser, Shaper Savant. It's nice that Predator is both colors, but the other two are faster, more versatile, and one of them also has a relevant creature type.
The Glamerdye effects are used exclusively for changing Momir Vig's second ability. In this deck, they are almost exactly the same as Glimpse of Nature copies 2-6, and they are absolutely stellar because they allow you to combo out of nowhere, without wasting a turn or two tutoring up Primordial Sage or Magus of the Future.
Example: that game we played, if I had any one of these effects in hand, I would have combo'd off on turn 4 instead of turn 5, and since I played first, that could make a huge difference between my board getting Wrath'd or not. Tutoring Primordial Sage to the top and passing the turn also blatantly telegraphs my intentions (though most people don't stop long enough to realize the combo). To sum up, Glamerdye itself is easily the worst of the bunch, but even it is great to see in my opening hand.
However, cramming the deck full of countermagic and just relying on Magus of the Future and Primordial Sage is an interesting thought. The deck would probably turn from a fast turn 4/turn 5 kill into a slower turn 7/turn 8/turn 9 kill that always requires 2 turns to set up. I don't know if controlling the entire table for that long is feasible, but it's worth a shot. My guess is that the "optimal" build of this deck will have a healthy balance of Glimpse effects and cheap countermagic backup. Force of Will seems like an auto-include.
With that in mind, here are what I deem the worst cards in the deck:
Clone -- I still use it to combo out occasionally, but I bet if I took more time to think about it, it really wouldn't be necessary. Lys Alana Huntmaster does this better, too. Clone also gets rid of pesky legends, but so does Venser, Shaper Savant.
Joraga Warcaller -- He's useful as a backup plan, but that's it. Because he at least tutors when you play him with Vig, he's never a dead card, but he's less useful than any of the mana dorks.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir -- Clunky and dead a little more than half the time I draw him, but he's a useful silver bullet and just straight-up wins games occasionally. I'm just not sure ATM, but if this deck goes for a more mid-game approach, I can see him being an all-star.
Sages of the Anima -- Same as Teferi. Useful at times, just awkward everywhere else. The longer the game goes, the better this guy gets, quickly restocking your hand after you get hit by a Wrath of God.
EDIT:
Here's the first game I goldfished with the new changes:
Turn 1: Tropical Island, Mana Crypt, Lightning Greaves
Turn 2: Island, Venser, Shaper Savant, bounce opponent's land
Turn 3: Forest, Heart Warden and tap, Elvish Archdruid and tap, Seeker of Skybreak and tap to retap Archdruid, Wirewood Symbiote, bounce Seeker of Skybreak to untap Archdruid, cast Momir Vig, Simic Visionary. 1 card in hand, which is Seeker of Skybreak.
Turn 4: Draw and play a land, Seeker of Skybreak tutoring Primordial Sage, tap Archdruid and Seeker (8 green mana), bounce Seeker with the Symbiote, tap everything for mana mana (GGGGGGGGGGGGGGU2 floating), sac Heart Warden to draw Primordial Sage, cast Primordial Sage, cast Seeker of Skybreak, win the game. Because of Venser, this was essentially our opponent's turn 2 or 3.
So, I threw this deck together yesterday before heading out to play EDH. I had goldfished it in MWS and found that what you said is absolutely correct: It goes off around turn five very consistantly.
What I found when playing a real, live opponant is, they don't want to let you combo out at all! Playing with 3 other people at the table, I could not get to a point where I could combo out.
Primordial Sage was Swords to Plowshares'd, Sleight of Mind was Counterspelled. The board was Wrathed, etc. When I went to bring Primordial back with Witness, my graveyard was Tormod'd.
I only played one game with it so I am not sure, but this deck might be better in a 1 vs 1 matchup.
Also, Riftsweeper might be a good addition to the arsenal. With the bounce, we would be able to rescue any and all creatures that get RFG'd,
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Current EDH Generals: WAvacyn, Angel of Hope|UAzami, Lady of Scrolls|B| Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|GEzuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UBGrimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RGUlasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WBGhost Council of Orzhova|BGGlissa, the Traitor|GUExperiment Kraj|URMelek, Izzet Paragon RWJor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBRKaalia of the Vast|GWBGhave, Guru of Spores|UBRMarchesa, the Black Rose
Retired WDarien, King of Kjeldor|RJaya Ballard, Task Mage|RNorin the Wary|GBMomir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRGSliver Overlord
you know. i built Vig. but i think i like this virsion a lot better. i'm stealing this deck list.
also, what about wall of blossoms and all the other U/G cantrips?
I'm not gonna lie, that makes me really happy. If I've inspired other people to adopt the idea, then as a deckbuilder I'd say mission accomplished. Plus, with other people putting their own ideas into the deck, we're sure to find improvements that make it more of a serious contender.
IDK about Wall of Blossoms and its ilk, but my guess is that those non-elf slots would be better served shoring up the deck's weaknesses (which are still being investigated). But who knows? We'll keep it in mind.
Quote from Gavvin »
So, I threw this deck together yesterday before heading out to play EDH. I had goldfished it in MWS and found that what you said is absolutely correct: It goes off around turn five very consistantly.
What I found when playing a real, live opponant is, they don't want to let you combo out at all! Playing with 3 other people at the table, I could not get to a point where I could combo out.
Primordial Sage was Swords to Plowshares'd, Sleight of Mind was Counterspelled. The board was Wrathed, etc. When I went to bring Primordial back with Witness, my graveyard was Tormod'd.
I only played one game with it so I am not sure, but this deck might be better in a 1 vs 1 matchup.
Also, Riftsweeper might be a good addition to the arsenal. With the bounce, we would be able to rescue any and all creatures that get RFG'd,
Sorry to hear it didn't work out. It sounds like your playgroup recognizes the red flags cards like Primordial Sage and Sleight of Mind should throw up and reacts appropriately, which is impressive for not having seen the deck do its thing beforehand. I think countermagic and other protection will be even more important once people start catching on.
Out of curiosity, do you feel like you could have won that game via the fast combo route if you had something like Force of Will or Pact of Negation in hand? On the other hand, what if you went against the grain and played conservatively, attempting to win in the mid- or late-game after some resources were spent? I'm just trying to get a feel for the direction we need to take the deck.
I wouldn't give up on it just yet, though! Using the Cockatrice program, I've played the deck in four multiplayer games (against combinations of 2 and 3 opponents) and combo'd out in all of them. However, only half of them went as planned. I won the first game around turn 10 because the Zur player got cocky with his Necropotence + Solitary Confinement + Armageddon setup. I won the second on turn 7 after Momir Vig ate some removal spells. I won the third (against the same opponents) because even though they knew it was coming, they were 1 turn too slow to Wrath the board. I won the last game on turn 5 because of the sheer unknown factor.
Yes, I think a Force of Will or Pact of Negation might have allowed me to win. I was always one turn away from doing silly things and winning.
I really like the concept of this deck, as I had tried Elf Trial before and could not get it to work (Elves just aren't broken like Goblins). I even looked at Momir Vig as a general to provide card advantage, I just didn't look far enough. Kudos to you for seeing the possibilities!
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Current EDH Generals: WAvacyn, Angel of Hope|UAzami, Lady of Scrolls|B| Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|GEzuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UBGrimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RGUlasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WBGhost Council of Orzhova|BGGlissa, the Traitor|GUExperiment Kraj|URMelek, Izzet Paragon RWJor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBRKaalia of the Vast|GWBGhave, Guru of Spores|UBRMarchesa, the Black Rose
Retired WDarien, King of Kjeldor|RJaya Ballard, Task Mage|RNorin the Wary|GBMomir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRGSliver Overlord
Thanks to DarkKnightCavalier For the awesome banner! Currently Playing: RWUZedruuRWU (G/U)Momir Vig(G/U) Works In Progress WBGGhaveWBG RUGRikuRUG GRStonebrowGR RWBrionRW
Er, maybe it's nothing like a Niv-Mizzet deck. Whatever. Momir Vig is the combo, and he's your general, hence the name.
1 Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Mana Dudes (23)
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Arbor Elf
1 Boreal Druid
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Heritage Druid
1 Nettle Sentinel
1 Quirion Elves
1 Quirion Explorer
1 Leaf Gilder
1 Heart Warden
1 Bloom Tender
1 Devoted Druid
1 Priest of Titania
1 Seeker of Skybreak
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Fyndhorn Elder
1 Greenweaver Druid
1 Wirewood Channeler
1 Elvish Harbinger
Utility Dudes (19)
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Spellskite
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Multani's Acolyte
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Lys Alana Huntmaster
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Skyshroud Poacher
1 Magus of the Future
1 Primordial Sage
1 Regal Force
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Terastodon
1 Glimpse of Nature
1 Mind Bend
1 Whim of Volrath
1 Sleight of Mind
1 Concordant Crossroads
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Thousand-Year Elixir
1 Intruder Alarm
1 Cloudstone Curio
1 Food Chain
Noncreature Support (14)
1 Vitalize
1 Mobilize
1 Crop Rotation
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Pact of Negation
1 Timetwister
1 Natural Order
Mana (32)
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Chrome Mox
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Polluted Delta
1 Breeding Pool
1 Tropical Island
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Flooded Grove
1 Gaea's Cradle
10 Forest
7 Island
Before we get started, let me say that this is not a control deck. As good as Trygon Predator, Yavimaya Elder, and Tradewind Rider may be, they are usually too slow for an all-in combo deck like this. If these are the types of cards you are interested in, Miscalcul8tedRisk has an excellent primer on the "conventional" Momir Vig strategy here!
This is basically an elf combo deck that uses Momir Vig as a tutor and card advantage engine. Ideally, you ramp into your general as fast as possible (turn 3 or 4 consistently), then vomit your deck onto the table either that turn or the next and go infinite on the spot. So how do we accomplish this?
Phase 1: Ramp
Except for anomalies like Urborg Elf, You are literally running every marginally playable green mana elf in the game. Your early turns should be filled with Llanowar Elves, Joraga Treecallers, and Fyndhorn Elders. It's also okay to Brainstorm or Sensei's Divining Top here.
Phase 2: Activate Momir Vig
Use all that mana to cast Momir Vig. If you have something like Glimpse of Nature and some spare mana, cast it and go to Phase 3. If you have Mind Bend or any of its cousins and some spare mana, cast it and change Vig's second ability to "green," then go to Phase 3. If you have neither of these, use Momir Vig to tutor up Primordial Sage or Magus of the Future, then go to Phase 3 anyway.
Phase 3: Win the Game
Essentially, by circumventing Vig's second color requirement, you get a free Eladamri's Call whenever you cast a green creature spell. From here, you have several lines of play. Here are the main ones:
1. The Heritage Druid plan
Tutor up Heritage Druid, then Nettle Sentinel, then all of your 1-mana guys to ramp up green mana. Eventually you can cast Lys Alana Huntmaster (Clone works as well), then a bunch of 2-mana guys. Orochi Leafcaller into blue mana, then Drift of Phantasms into Cloudstone Curio for infinite mana into Tidespout Tyrant for the win.
2. The "Big Tapper" plan
If you have an active Priest of Titania, Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, Elvish Archdruid, or Wirewood Channeler, it is often easier to just abuse these guys (and gals) with Quirion Ranger and Wirewood Symbiote than to go through the trouble of Heritage Druid. These guys also go infinite with Umbral Mantle, which is easy to tutor out with Drift of Phantasms.
What If I Can't Go Infinite?
It happens; maybe you got hit by Sadistic Sacrament, or you got a few tutors out of Momir Vig before people caught on and he got Oblationed. You can always play this as a traditional elf deck, with blue for card draw. If you think this is going to happen, just try to churn out dudes and drop Joraga Warcaller.
Don't forget you can also just do the Sensei's Divining Top + Magus of the Future thing. Yeah, that was totally unintentional, but totally welcome.
Once upon a time, when Vig was inactive, I combo'd out late in the game using Sages of the Anima with Glimpse of Nature. It isn't reliable or anything, but never give up hope if you can keep the cards flowing.
Pros
+ Fast clock
+ Consistency through tutoring and redundancy
+ Gaddock Teeg doesn't bother us at all
+ Versatile win conditions
+ Lots of fun to play
Cons
- Lots of shuffling, long turns
- Aven Mindcensor, Linvala, Keeper of Silence, Grinning Totem, and Wrath of God suck hard
- Heavy reliance on general (though not 100% necessary)
- Low land count = unfriendly mulligans
So here it is, ready for community review. I'm not going to pretend like this is well-tuned or anything, or that I know how to play the deck optimally, but any EDH deck that combos off by turn 5 with a great deal of regularity has to have some potential. Any thoughts or ideas?
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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Couple suggestions:
Bloom Tender is a pretty good mana dude (-Quirion Elves?)
Venser, Shaper Savant is a nice option to have available
My Current EDH Decks
WUBRG Lorwyn Block Horde of Notions WUBRG
UG Momir Vig Glimpse Combo UG
UW "Rasputin Dreamcrusher" Control UW
Bloom Tender is great stuff too. The more mana dudes, the better. It replaces Joiner Adept, who has been obsoleted by Orochi Leafcaller.
Thanks for the suggestions! Any more ideas?
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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IMO, Vig, tribal or not, should have as many utility bounce outlets available to it as possible. Venser, Man-O'-War, and Aether Adept included. Venser is much more versatile but keep in mind both Man-O'-War and the Adept sneak in under Aluren which is huge. The Hedge-Mage was garbage for me too, however.
I like the way that you approached the deck and in fact one of my initial design considerations for the deck way back when was to go all elf-ball with it but at the time it didn't have quite the toolbox that it does now (and it appears to be much more consistent by the looks of things).
I know it's a decent card on its own but upon closer inspection I think you'll notice that Wood Elves is a nombo with Momir Vig as are any green creatures with a search and shuffle ETB ability (but at least with those others you can elect not to search).
Also, Equilibrium is essentially Cloudstone #2 but can also be used defensively to bounce opposing creatures. Additionally you'll probably get more milage out of Opposition than even I can with my build and it absolutely wrecks in 1v1.
Multani's Acolyte is a slightly worse Elvish Visionary but still might be worthwhile.
I'll give the deck a more thorough analysis later on, but that's what I saw from my first look. Hope that helps.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
I'm honestly a little afraid to cram in a bunch of off-color, non-elves. This may be pure ignorance on my part, but why do you need so many different bounce spells in a fast combo deck like this? In this deck, the bounce has nothing to do with tempo -- Venser, Shaper Savant is there so I can tutor him up and flash him in EOT to deal with a problematic permanent (like Rule of Law, Sphere of Resistance, or Linvala, Keeper of Silence), then win the following turn. Man-O'-War might be helpful, but my first impression is that Aether Adept might be overkill.
And yes, the more elves they print, the better. I don't even think this deck would have been playable before Heritage Druid and such!
Yeah, I found that out the hard way :(. But on the other hand, I really only use Wood Elves to get my Breeding Pool when I draw into him (pre-Vig), but otherwise I never tutor him up. He may get the axe eventually, but for now, he's fine. I guess if you're really desperate, the shuffle downside can be overcome with some Teferi timing shenanigans.
Multani's Acolyte is freaking awesome. I think it will replace Imperious Perfect, which doesn't actually do much of anything for me.
Equilibrium was in here initially, but I removed it -- this might have been the wrong move. The way I figured, it was another wincon, and not much else. By the time I could tutor it up with Drift of Phantasms, I might as well tutor up Cloudstone Curio. It's worth testing, though.
Opposition looks great for buying time, tapping their lands EOT to set up a combo turn, and it's a must-counter for other blue decks. Another great card that is worth testing!
Thank you so much for your input, dude. You've been a tremendous help, and I hope to hear your thoughts after you give it a whirl or whatever.
One last thing I forgot to mention in the original post: the Future Sight/Sensei's Divining Top combo is in here too, so don't forget you have that option! The sad thing is, it's usually worse than the elf combo brokenness you have available.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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Btw: i'm also currently building a vig deck (irl), different theme though (think search for emrakul)
My Current EDH Decks
WUBRG Lorwyn Block Horde of Notions WUBRG
UG Momir Vig Glimpse Combo UG
UW "Rasputin Dreamcrusher" Control UW
Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain to draw into the searched creatures and smooth draws.
Windfall, Timetwister, Diminshing Returns, Time Reversal, Time Spiral for extra gravy in multiplayer. My initial thoughts on the deck were that it might be too easy to disrupt by just countering a key spell of two. Now there are 5 more to try to counter! Added Boseiju as well as it obviously worked well with these. Mystical Tutor too.
It's goldfishing very well so far. There are still more than enough creatures to make the combo work. Could be worth someone actually trying these cards in a game. Thoughts?
Thanks for taking the time to test it; all of my "testing" so far has been goldfishing as well, and while I haven't updated this thread in the past few days, I've been tweaking the deck a lot.
I like the idea of the Brainstorm effects, mainly because the least consistent part of the deck is having lands in your opening hand (though I still think 31 or 32 is the correct number). The real trick is finding room!
Honestly, I think the deck has too many win conditions, so maybe let's start there. I've boiled it down to this: if you can get Momir Vig "online" and then play and activate Heritage Druid, you can win on the spot. Other cards in hand, like Earthcraft or Lightning Greaves, enable alternate routes to victory, but Heritage Druid and Magus of the Future let you go off without any additional help. With that in mind, let's take out some of the "win more" cards and borderline creatures:
- Mana Reflection
- Mind Over Matter
- Aluren (really unnecessary)
- Future Sight (Sleight of Mind is so much better)
- Trygon Predator
- Nulltread Gargantuan
- Gilt-Leaf Archdruid
Now we have some breathing room. In addition to your idea of the cantrips, at least one Timetwister effect, and Mystical Tutor, here are some cards I'd like to fit in:
Crop Rotation (because Gaea's Cradle is bonkers)
Sleight of Mind (one of these in your opener makes a turn 4 win realistic!)
And we can fill in the gaps with cheap/free countermagic (Pact of Negation, Force of Will, maybe even Intervene) and more mana elves (even Heart Warden is quite playable). Do these changes sound reasonable to you? The deck would become slightly more reliant on its general, but at the same time it becomes more focused and more difficult to stop. If we decided to make it a bit slower and more versatile, I think that's when utility like Skyshroud Poacher would really shine. It's unclear which strategy is better overall, though.
I'm excited to see where this deck will go. As with most of my decks, it was mainly just a thought experiment, but I find myself winning on turn 4 30% of the time and turn 5 about 50-60% of the time, assuming one free mulligan. That's ridiculous. I hope you'll continue to help me out on this, because your input is much appreciated!
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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The deck as it is currently configured:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/momir-vig-edh-6/
Although it's changing on a regular basis!
You'll notice I really trimmed the non mana producing creatures. Seems fine still but I might have gone too far. I guess 7 twister effects might be a tad too much. I like all but Time Reversal and Diminishing Returns though.
Crop Rotation seems like a good call. Sylvan Scrying as well?
Great find on Heart Warden! Never seen him before. Any other mana elves I'm missing?
Maybe Dispel and Pact of Negation as the disruption cards? Not sure I like Intervene.
I'm still not sure on the win conditions. Are Tidespout Tyrant and Wirewood Hivemaster enough?
Necropostance.
Sorry Viper. (There is a massive update in the OP, though)
Because Narglfrob mentioned it in a recent thread, I've turned my attention back to this deck. I've been slowly collecting bits and pieces I need for this deck over the past month or two, and it's about half way there without me having to spend a dime. I might bite the bullet and sink the $20 needed to finish it out (without Rofellos and fetchlands, of course).
This deck still has tons of potential, but because I'm not really sure where to start when it comes to optimization, here's what I did: except for a few key silver bullet creatures, I took out all the counterspells and stuff and instead focused on making the combo as fast and consistent as possible. My reasoning is that once the core of the deck is streamlined, it will be easier to tell what is necessary and what isn't so we can slot in spells dedicated for protection. I also finally got around to updating the decklists with the changes discussed above.
- Nulltread Gargantuan
- Trygon Predator
- Timberwatch Elf
- Wood Elves
- Farhaven Elf
- Gilt-Leaf Archdruid
- Murkfiend Liege
- Earthcraft
- Aluren
- Future Sight
- Temporal Fissure
- Elvish Promenade
- Mind Over Matter
- Mana Reflection
+ Sleight of Mind
+ Alter Reality
+ Glamerdye
+ Heart Warden
+ Leaf Gilder
+ Greenweaver Druid
+ Mul Daya Channelers
+ Primordial Sage
+ Skyshroud Poacher
+ Joraga Warcaller
+ Crop Rotation
+ Brainstorm
+ Ponder
+ Preordain
In essence, by cutting the unnecessary wincons and midrange control-ish stuff, we made room for maximum mana dorkage and card filtering. I came across Primordial Sage and it turned out to be unbelievably good -- it also cuts us some slack on the manabase, as it's essentially a green Magus of the Future, which used to be the most important card in the deck. I haven't actually tested Timetwister with Mystical Tutor yet, but I'm working on it. And Sancho was correct: the cantrips are wonderful. Come to think of it, they always are.
The deck gets occasional turn 4 kills, clockwork turn 5 kills, and at the latest turn 6 unless you kept a terrible opening hand. With Primordial Sage in the deck, Vig can now allow you to tutor into the entire combo provided you draw a green creature, which is a given. Without countermagic, it's more fragile than ever, but it's also faster than ever, and more consistent than any combo deck in the format (IMO). I could use some help tuning this, if anyone's interested.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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I'd suggest that, too. It works really well in my Vig deck, especially with Skyshroud Poacher or Imperious Perfect. You basically don't even need Vig at that point.
I think i would keep Trygon Predator over Glamerdye//other color manipulation.
Stealing or altering someone's mana doubling effect//color based removal could be useful, but a naturalize on a stick is better in case of emergencies.
If you're using it to allow Vig to utilize both tutor triggers, i would still think countermagic is the way to go. Protect Vig first - you can take your time with winning, and if someone happens to have an instant-speed wipe, if you've overextended (which seems to be the nature of the deck) then being able to stop it is really relevant.
Straight up counter-magic seems infinitely superior to color alteration.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
I didn't really build this deck with either banlist in mind; it just happened to be legal by all standards, which is cool.
I've tried Elvish Spirit Guide before. I only drew it twice, but I hated it both times. It ability is useful, but it's a pain to cast when I actually need to tutor with Vig. Fast mana in general seems like a good idea, though, from Chrome Mox to Sol Ring to Mana Crypt. All of these can probably replace lands, so that's not too difficult. I guess that also means we're using the multiplayer banlist. Thanks for the suggestions!
Trygon Predator's role is fulfilled by Viridian Zealot and Venser, Shaper Savant. It's nice that Predator is both colors, but the other two are faster, more versatile, and one of them also has a relevant creature type.
The Glamerdye effects are used exclusively for changing Momir Vig's second ability. In this deck, they are almost exactly the same as Glimpse of Nature copies 2-6, and they are absolutely stellar because they allow you to combo out of nowhere, without wasting a turn or two tutoring up Primordial Sage or Magus of the Future.
Example: that game we played, if I had any one of these effects in hand, I would have combo'd off on turn 4 instead of turn 5, and since I played first, that could make a huge difference between my board getting Wrath'd or not. Tutoring Primordial Sage to the top and passing the turn also blatantly telegraphs my intentions (though most people don't stop long enough to realize the combo). To sum up, Glamerdye itself is easily the worst of the bunch, but even it is great to see in my opening hand.
However, cramming the deck full of countermagic and just relying on Magus of the Future and Primordial Sage is an interesting thought. The deck would probably turn from a fast turn 4/turn 5 kill into a slower turn 7/turn 8/turn 9 kill that always requires 2 turns to set up. I don't know if controlling the entire table for that long is feasible, but it's worth a shot. My guess is that the "optimal" build of this deck will have a healthy balance of Glimpse effects and cheap countermagic backup. Force of Will seems like an auto-include.
With that in mind, here are what I deem the worst cards in the deck:
Wirewood Hivemaster -- Cool and fun, but I never tutor for it and the tokens are never really relevant. Lys Alana Huntmaster does it better. Intruder Alarm replaces this guy.
Clone -- I still use it to combo out occasionally, but I bet if I took more time to think about it, it really wouldn't be necessary. Lys Alana Huntmaster does this better, too. Clone also gets rid of pesky legends, but so does Venser, Shaper Savant.
Joraga Warcaller -- He's useful as a backup plan, but that's it. Because he at least tutors when you play him with Vig, he's never a dead card, but he's less useful than any of the mana dorks.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir -- Clunky and dead a little more than half the time I draw him, but he's a useful silver bullet and just straight-up wins games occasionally. I'm just not sure ATM, but if this deck goes for a more mid-game approach, I can see him being an all-star.
Sages of the Anima -- Same as Teferi. Useful at times, just awkward everywhere else. The longer the game goes, the better this guy gets, quickly restocking your hand after you get hit by a Wrath of God.
For the moment, let's try:
- Wirewood Hivemaster
- Clone
- Forest
- Island
+ Intruder Alarm
+ Sol Ring
+ Mana Crypt
+ Chrome Mox
EDIT:
Here's the first game I goldfished with the new changes:
Turn 1: Tropical Island, Mana Crypt, Lightning Greaves
Turn 2: Island, Venser, Shaper Savant, bounce opponent's land
Turn 3: Forest, Heart Warden and tap, Elvish Archdruid and tap, Seeker of Skybreak and tap to retap Archdruid, Wirewood Symbiote, bounce Seeker of Skybreak to untap Archdruid, cast Momir Vig, Simic Visionary. 1 card in hand, which is Seeker of Skybreak.
Turn 4: Draw and play a land, Seeker of Skybreak tutoring Primordial Sage, tap Archdruid and Seeker (8 green mana), bounce Seeker with the Symbiote, tap everything for mana mana (GGGGGGGGGGGGGGU2 floating), sac Heart Warden to draw Primordial Sage, cast Primordial Sage, cast Seeker of Skybreak, win the game. Because of Venser, this was essentially our opponent's turn 2 or 3.
This deck is stupid. ^^
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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also, what about wall of blossoms and all the other U/G cantrips?
What I found when playing a real, live opponant is, they don't want to let you combo out at all! Playing with 3 other people at the table, I could not get to a point where I could combo out.
Primordial Sage was Swords to Plowshares'd, Sleight of Mind was Counterspelled. The board was Wrathed, etc. When I went to bring Primordial back with Witness, my graveyard was Tormod'd.
I only played one game with it so I am not sure, but this deck might be better in a 1 vs 1 matchup.
Also, Riftsweeper might be a good addition to the arsenal. With the bounce, we would be able to rescue any and all creatures that get RFG'd,
W Avacyn, Angel of Hope|U Azami, Lady of Scrolls|B | Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|G Ezuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WB Ghost Council of Orzhova|BG Glissa, the Traitor|GU Experiment Kraj|UR Melek, Izzet Paragon
RW Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBR Kaalia of the Vast|GWB Ghave, Guru of Spores|UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
Retired
WDarien, King of Kjeldor|R Jaya Ballard, Task Mage|R Norin the Wary|GB Momir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRG Sliver Overlord
I'm not gonna lie, that makes me really happy. If I've inspired other people to adopt the idea, then as a deckbuilder I'd say mission accomplished. Plus, with other people putting their own ideas into the deck, we're sure to find improvements that make it more of a serious contender.
IDK about Wall of Blossoms and its ilk, but my guess is that those non-elf slots would be better served shoring up the deck's weaknesses (which are still being investigated). But who knows? We'll keep it in mind.
Sorry to hear it didn't work out. It sounds like your playgroup recognizes the red flags cards like Primordial Sage and Sleight of Mind should throw up and reacts appropriately, which is impressive for not having seen the deck do its thing beforehand. I think countermagic and other protection will be even more important once people start catching on.
Out of curiosity, do you feel like you could have won that game via the fast combo route if you had something like Force of Will or Pact of Negation in hand? On the other hand, what if you went against the grain and played conservatively, attempting to win in the mid- or late-game after some resources were spent? I'm just trying to get a feel for the direction we need to take the deck.
I wouldn't give up on it just yet, though! Using the Cockatrice program, I've played the deck in four multiplayer games (against combinations of 2 and 3 opponents) and combo'd out in all of them. However, only half of them went as planned. I won the first game around turn 10 because the Zur player got cocky with his Necropotence + Solitary Confinement + Armageddon setup. I won the second on turn 7 after Momir Vig ate some removal spells. I won the third (against the same opponents) because even though they knew it was coming, they were 1 turn too slow to Wrath the board. I won the last game on turn 5 because of the sheer unknown factor.
Riftsweeper is cool. I'll throw it in the sideboard (where I keep possible includes) just in case Swords to Plowshares or Sadistic Sacrament or whatever prove to be consistently problematic.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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I really like the concept of this deck, as I had tried Elf Trial before and could not get it to work (Elves just aren't broken like Goblins). I even looked at Momir Vig as a general to provide card advantage, I just didn't look far enough. Kudos to you for seeing the possibilities!
W Avacyn, Angel of Hope|U Azami, Lady of Scrolls|B | Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|G Ezuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WB Ghost Council of Orzhova|BG Glissa, the Traitor|GU Experiment Kraj|UR Melek, Izzet Paragon
RW Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBR Kaalia of the Vast|GWB Ghave, Guru of Spores|UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
Retired
WDarien, King of Kjeldor|R Jaya Ballard, Task Mage|R Norin the Wary|GB Momir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRG Sliver Overlord
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
i suppose you're right. i see it's perpose now
1. Silhana Starfletcher. Just another way to get blue mana.
2. Sylvok Explorer. Another Quirion Explorer. and i just dont like Mul Daya Channelers.
3. Presence of Gond + Intruder Alarm = Infinate elf tokens
Thanks to DarkKnightCavalier For the awesome banner!
Currently Playing:
RWUZedruuRWU
(G/U)Momir Vig(G/U)
Works In Progress
WBGGhaveWBG
RUGRikuRUG
GRStonebrowGR
RWBrionRW
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.