Here's my take on Shirei. It's such an exciting deck to play, I missed seeing it on the first page. Well, mine's a little different. Mostly, I try to keep in effects that I can run cheap and at instant speed so the deck can scale easily against many opponents. Oh, and it really likes being the bad guy.
Of course, like any Shirei, the deck is packed to the teeth with various synergies. There's also a number of choices I haven't seen in too many deck variations, as well as some notable cards not included in my build. I'll try to get to them in later discussion, as I'm running out of time.
Why Junk Diver over Myr Retriever? Does the flying matter at all?
I'm really not a fan of Junktroller. Heap Doll is much better at scouring opponents' yards, and the Troller's ability to recur your own stuff is barely relevant in my experience.
Lack of Pentavus/Triskelavus is really confusing. I win most of the time off the back of one of these guys.
Not a suggestion, but Dimir House Guard is clever. Something I might have to consider. Spawning Pool is another one I missed and should probably use.
What's with Shred Memory? Seems like all it can get is another tutor and some fairly underwhelming stuff. I guess you might want to cast it occasionally, but still. Machinations is a bit more relevant I guess, but at that cost wouldn't you rather just go for Diabolic Tutor?
Skulltap and Plunge into Darkness are not very good. Sure, they're sac outlets, but you have enough of those, and their effects are too marginal for the cost compared to other things you could be running.
Yeah, Pentavus is a game-winner in this deck. It is a win-con, a source of sacrifice fodder, and a sacrifice outlet.
You play a lot of interesting cards. I like Black Market.
I'm not a fan of Dark Ritual in most EDH decks, and I'm not sure it works here. Also, Sign in Blood is probably better than Skull Tap. I also like Nevinyrral's Disk. Yes, O-Stone is better, but recur-able wrath (via junk diver or myr retriever) is pretty sweet.
Junktroller's been on my list of things to cut for a while now. Tapping just isn't fast enough, but gy hate is very relevant. So relevant that tapping isn't fast enough. Heap doll is a great suggestion.
I actually don't think I have a myr retriever, but I'll be keeping track of chump blocks diver makes and keep it in mind. It's probably a pretty negligible difference, and chaining creatures with ashnod's altar is fuuuuun. ;D
I don't run pent/trisk just because they either suck too much mana to run effectively or the mana's not there and their ability's as unwieldy as a tap ability. I actually just cut Trisk when I realized Dimir House Guard fetches Marsh Flitter for a total cmc 7 token engine that runs much more fluidly. Though, that's not usually first choice...
I also like house guard's synergy with Cadaver Imp. Oo la la. And man lands like Spawning Pool run great with Dust Bowl.
I wouldn't run the transmute effects if I didn't cast them. Both of those can shut certain decks down. However, I don't discount the cmc2 slot, either. Lightning Greaves usually comes first, but if I've got a sick draw engine going, or better, a pilgrim's eye engine going, scroll rack takes it. Also, abyssal gatekeeper cleans up large multiplayer boards quick- it's an easy cmc 2 soft lock.
I have to disagree with your assessment of plunge. Occasionally the lifegain has saved my game, but that's just icing on the cake. Fishing deep into your deck at instant speed is nothing to scoff at, and it always pulls up something nice. Even if you do only use it for some quick lifegain and only dig a bit, it still outclasses bottle gnomes and deathgreeter on versatility alone. I'm usually OK with exiling a bunch of cards.
I could see your case for skulltap though. I actually took arena out for this, as I like the instant gratification, but I'm realizing Phyrexian Arena's much more castable before Shirei's out, and better in the long run.
Solemn simulacrum, well, I like him but he still seems underwhelming as a cmc 4 in this deck. As ramp, well I'd like to keep pre-shirei ramp at 3 or less, and post-shirei ramp explosive and unrefined. The draw 1 just doesn't do it for me I guess.
To get my instant gratification back though I'm throwing in a Mind's Eye.
So I'm at:
-Junktroller
-skulltap
+Heap doll
+Phyrexian Arena
Yeah, Pentavus is a game-winner in this deck. It is a win-con, a source of sacrifice fodder, and a sacrifice outlet.
You play a lot of interesting cards. I like Black Market.
I'm not a fan of Dark Ritual in most EDH decks, and I'm not sure it works here. Also, Sign in Blood is probably better than Skull Tap. I also like Nevinyrral's Disk. Yes, O-Stone is better, but recur-able wrath (via junk diver or myr retriever) is pretty sweet.
I think I'm good on sweepers. The meta's heavy on them and abyssal gatekeeper does me good. If I start having trouble with artifacts maybe I'll try the disk.
You might be right about ritual. It can be card disadvantage. It hasn't done me wrong, and I've always gotten a little extra mile or shirei recast out of it, though, so I'm not sure. I don't seem to miss it in games without, though, so I guess it could go.
Man, I forgot to say earlier, but isn't Viscera Seer so awesome? When I saw they had printed that, it was like, wow, birthday-christmas for Shirei.
Your Cadaver Imp + Dimir House guard is an intriguing idea. I wondered about Cadaver Imp; usually I don't want stuff returning to my hand. I play Apprentice Necromancer to recur stuff from the yard.
Viscera Seer was made for this deck! Unbelievably broken. Ensuring every card you draw for the rest of the game is relevant for a low 1 mana initial investment? Yes please.
New playgroups unfamiliar with Shirei often stare in awe, mouth agape, at the utter jank turned utterly brokenly awesome by Shirei's unique ability.
I know putting cards in hand is typically slower than in play, I figured shirei would keep most p1 creatures running and apprentice necromancer's ability wouldn't do much good for larger power creatures in the yard. To return my p1 creatures to play I have a Coffin Queen as well.
Returning cards to your hand can also be good for Scroll Rack, Insidious Dreams, Mindlash Sliver, Mindless Automaton's discard ability, and for Demonic Collusion's buyback, though I recently cut that. It's good to keep in mind, though.
Yeah, I cut Mindlash Sliver and Insidious Dreams. Mindlash because it made me a target and I like other discard effects better (like Noxious Toad and Nezumi Bone-Reader), and Insidious Dreams because I run enough tutors already and I'd rather have draw like Phyrexian Arena.
Your deck is slightly different from mine though. You play more cards that can cripple players or end games (Contamination, Death Cloud), whereas I play more draw (Phyrexian Arena, Mind's Eye).
How has Reassembling Skeleton worked for you? I thought about it, but then I wondered if his ability would just be redundant with Shirei. I like Nether Traitor because he can produce mana with Ashnod's Altar or machine gun with Attrition, and I wonder if R. Sekeleton might have some similar shenanigans?
Reassembling Skeleton's solid. I recommend him as that bit of carefree sac fodder you can abuse when Shirei, or even any creature, isn't on the table. I've stolen many games after a sweeper effect using this guy as an engine for keeping players down. And yes, you can still abuse shenanigans like Attrition and Infernal Tribute, they're just a teensy bit more expensive. You can also ramp a bit with Pawn of Ulamog, if you don't mind waiting a bit. Eldrazi spawn tokens don't empty from your mana pool as phases end (obviously, lol).
I've though about Nezumi in place of Ravenous Rats, but doesn't that make you just as much of a target? I like the rats since they scale to the number of opponents I have well, but Nezumi has the potential to keep up with players running a bunch of card draw effects... though at sorcery speed I find it's little difference.
Yeah, I think you can play targeted discard more politically. You can use it to punish players that go after you, or to attack someone drawing a large amount. Basically, you can justify it to the table. Also, it is a sacrifice outlet, so it can turn on Grave Pact. I just think it has more synergy than Rav Rats, which need Shirei and another sac outlet to be worthwhile. I mean, Nezumi isn't great, and when they print some other good creature for this deck, it's definitely on the "possible cut" list.
I'm definitely crossign my fingers for some more sick artifact creatures in Scars.
I think I'm going to hold onto my rats and skeleton. Nezumi and Traitor seem like they'd be good running alongside trisk/pent, but I'm not looking to do that ATM.
Decklist updated. Trying out phyrexian altar. It seems useful pre and post Shirei. We shall see...
So I've made some slight changes, but I don't think I'm happy with Phyrexian Altar, and rather than going back to Beseech the Queen, think I'm actually looking to draw MORE cards instead of ramp, but I was wondering what other Shirei players' thoughts were on these cards.
Walking Atlas... I'm thinking probably not, but wondering if anyone's given it a shot.
Explorer's Scope Potentially a happy middle-ground between ramp and draw. I like it in some of my other decks, and it could work well with Viscera Seer and Scroll Rack. Graveborn Muse Arena #2? Oath of Lim-Dul Potentially dangerous... I think I kind of like that, though. Carnage Altar Has some more synergy with the deck, but a little pricey to operate. Greed Necropotence #2? I'm not sure about this one. Plus, well, I don't actually have this card.
Words of Waste The other option, getting rid of cards, potentially at instant speed. Definitely my style...
I think I'm mostly between the Scope, Oath, Altar, and Words. Scope seems the most politics-neutral, followed by the altar. Oath seems like a death wish but I might try pulling it off. Currently running Carnage Altar.
& honestly I think the deck could use a little more discard, as all of it's currently victim's choice discard I really want to capitalize on it as a control option. Noxious toad #3 could turn the deck into quite the beast, and though it's a paid discard and doesn't trigger gravepact, it does have potential to keep up with decks that run a lot of recurring draw effects.
Also, Thawing Glaciers. Yay or nay? It's no pilgrim's eye... but it's also not bad. Do you think it's worth it? I think I've decided to focus on a deadly mid-game over trying to get an explosive start. The ramp just seems a touch out of reach, as I love all the tricks and synergy the cards I have are making.
I think I've decided to focus on a deadly mid-game over trying to get an explosive start.
I'm shuffling your post around a bit, but it's probably worth pointing out before I dive in that my deck is built around the end-game, and tends not to even try to win before about turn 20 or so. My advice is given from that experience.
Nezumi and Traitor seem like they'd be good running alongside trisk/pent, but I'm not looking to do that ATM.
Traitor is just great. It makes another Clamp outlet, can get silly with Altar, and gives you double duty out of any given sac outlet. And it also pings! Too versatile not to have.
So I've made some slight changes, but I don't think I'm happy with Phyrexian Altar, and rather than going back to Beseech the Queen, think I'm actually looking to draw MORE cards instead of ramp, but I was wondering what other Shirei players' thoughts were on these cards.
Well, first I have to say that I like Phyrexian Altar. It's not quite Ashnod's, but it's still pretty good as a second copy thereof.
Walking Atlas... I'm thinking probably not, but wondering if anyone's given it a shot.
I did, briefly. As in every other format, it just sits there. I mean, if we could have access to all the good W/G land search around, then it might do something, but it doesn't right now.
Explorer's Scope Potentially a happy middle-ground between ramp and draw. I like it in some of my other decks, and it could work well with Viscera Seer and Scroll Rack. Graveborn Muse Arena #2? Oath of Lim-Dul Potentially dangerous... I think I kind of like that, though. Carnage Altar Has some more synergy with the deck, but a little pricey to operate. Greed Necropotence #2? I'm not sure about this one. Plus, well, I don't actually have this card.
I think I'm mostly between the Scope, Oath, Altar, and Words. Scope seems the most politics-neutral, followed by the altar. Oath seems like a death wish but I might try pulling it off. Currently running Carnage Altar.
Scope doesn't do enough. It may be cheap, but all it does is ramp you every 2.5 turns. Individual impact is way more important than cost, so I'd steer well clear of it. Muse is fine as Arena #2. Bit more fragile, but not that bad. Oath is capable of backfiring so massively that I wouldn't touch it. I'd much rather go for Greed.
Words of Waste The other option, getting rid of cards, potentially at instant speed. Definitely my style...
& honestly I think the deck could use a little more discard, as all of it's currently victim's choice discard I really want to capitalize on it as a control option. Noxious toad #3 could turn the deck into quite the beast, and though it's a paid discard and doesn't trigger gravepact, it does have potential to keep up with decks that run a lot of recurring draw effects.
From my perspective, the deck needs less discard, so I'm not going to comment.
Also, Thawing Glaciers. Yay or nay? It's no pilgrim's eye... but it's also not bad. Do you think it's worth it?
Absolutely worth it. At least, it is in my deck. More mana is always a good thing, and it cancels out its own tempo loss reasonably soon.
The ramp just seems a touch out of reach, as I love all the tricks and synergy the cards I have are making.
What exactly do you mean?
Also, what's with the wishboard? Does anyone actually use the sideboard rule?
Yes, well what I mean by the ramp being just out of reach is, well, it's just out of reach for trying to rush an early win. Steady land drops seem to be the way to go, and broken card draw ensures those. I seem to have all the mana I want without Phyrexian Altar in the mid-late game. I just can't help but think there's a quicker deck in here if I just cut some fun out. Fun wins, though.
You might be right about the discard... I need to remind myself to keep casual sometimes.
You make some fair points on Traitor. 50% more sacs/turn sounds nice, but the other benefits don't seem quite like enough. How big are your games, usually? To me it just seems like he'll exhaust my mana before we get halfway 'round the table if I'm reanimating him 3 or 4 times a turn. & the silliness with altar and pawn would sure help that, but by then I'd need another piece to sink that mana into, & if I have that I'm probably doing well enough as it is. He sounds good, but I can't imagine the case where he'd be the missing cog to work my engines. He'd just make them run a little harder for some mana. I don't know what I'd cut for that sort of effect.
After 1 game I can already tell I like carnage altar. Oath, muse, and scope are out of the running.
& lol yes we play boards. It was a new idea in the group. I haven't given the board much thought though, I mostly just like having the 'drazi there right now. It wasn't too hard taking expunge out.
Plus, this way I'll always have a few cards to swap for some of the more broken cards some playgroups might not go for (necropotence).
Yes, well what I mean by the ramp being just out of reach is, well, it's just out of reach for trying to rush an early win. Steady land drops seem to be the way to go, and broken card draw ensures those. I seem to have all the mana I want without Phyrexian Altar in the mid-late game. I just can't help but think there's a quicker deck in here if I just cut some fun out. Fun wins, though.
See, my deck is designed purely for fun, at the absolute expensive of speed. If I want a fast win, I'll whip out Uril.
But if you want some ramp that is a bit more reliable than the Altar, why not just run Thran Dynamo or some such? It's not a sac outlet, but it gets you to 8 mana turn 5, and that's respectable.
You might be right about the discard... I need to remind myself to keep casual sometimes.
You make some fair points on Traitor. 50% more sacs/turn sounds nice, but the other benefits don't seem quite like enough. To me it just seems like he'll exhaust my mana before we get halfway 'round the table if I'm reanimating him 3 or 4 times a turn. & the silliness with altar and pawn would sure help that, but by then I'd need another piece to sink that mana into, & if I have that I'm probably doing well enough as it is. He sounds good, but I can't imagine the case where he'd be the missing cog to work my engines. He'd just make them run a little harder for some mana. I don't know what I'd cut for that sort of effect.
Running harder for mana is exactly what he does most of the time, but he also has such silly interactions with Clamp, Black Market and so forth. Given the fairly strong Tutor package you're going with, he is great as a best option for these. You're also running something of a paucity of Clamp engines (I count only 5 creatures you can abuse it with), and upping that number is always good.
How big are your games, usually?
We mostly play 4, sometimes 3 or 5.
& lol yes we play boards. It was a new idea in the group. I haven't given the board much thought though, I mostly just like having the 'drazi there right now. It wasn't too hard taking expunge out.
Interesting. How do they change games? I've never had any experience with them.
I usually count 7 clamp creatures, er, with scarecrow/queen's reanimation targets.
There's also some other hoops I can jump through but that's besides the point. You could be right about clamp. Usually reassembling skeleton makes me happy as a clamp engine target that can run solo with my engines, but having doubles never hurt. I might have to test him out... Jeez. Do you think 36 lands is light? Lol. Actually, maybe it'll be Butcher, whom I can safely hide from bribery in my new wishboard.
Bottle Gnomes cut. I knew they wouldn't last.
I like the wishboard. I know my friend is running cunning wish. I gave him the idea to make a janky isochron scepter toolbox and he loved it. I'm enjoying the versatile wincons & answer package myself. Well, in theory more than practice... I am starting to wonder if it took some of the challenge out of construction, but I'll run with it for now. It will let me test more options at least.
And I wouldn't ever agree to more than the recommended 10 cards/board. I can see it being a little too versatile.
Tonight I ran the game with the Nether Spirit. I had it in my opening hand first game, and it actually made me a little happy. I saw it as an early sacrifice I could make pre-sherei, much like Reassembling Skeleton, that I could bring back at any time. A slightly better chance at a disruptive opening hand is always good to have.
He performed well for the early match. Around the time my Black Market was exploding, yet before I had any significant creatures on board, he was a welcome outlet for a bit of that mana. Granted, only my main phase, it was enough to make a difference.
Late game I was less interested in him. Overall, satisfied. I didn't get too much of that brokenness, except for maybe pumping the market, but I see that potential and even without it I think he's a keeper.
Other than that the only change I've made is Ashen-Skin Zubera over Ravenous Rats for instant-speed discard over time. I think it's the better choice as I'm going with my mid-game package over my early-game package, and with all the sac outlets the difference at casting time is negligible, whilst the discard timing is much much more broken with the Zubera. Small notes: It also Scullclamps with Plagued Rusalka's help, and on the offhand chance I kill a buddy's changeling (Usually a Lin Sivvi or a Sliver Overlord at the table) bonus!
I'm also thinking of running Filth in my board for the mirror and finishing the game with Urborg/Swampwalk. Thoughts?
It's too much of an absolute bomb in the deck, especially as a lock with Mind's Eye. I'm even halfway considering the 3rd piece to an absolute blowout combo, Geth's Grimoire, which I've put into the sideboard.
It's too much of an absolute bomb in the deck, especially as a lock with Mind's Eye. I'm even halfway considering the 3rd piece to an absolute blowout combo, Geth's Grimoire, which I've put into the sideboard.
While this seems powerful, I feel that it detracts from the deck in that it has nothing to do with Shirei, combination s that work without Shirei are fine, but the individual cards should be included to work with him.
Hm... A fair point. Geth's Grimoire is too winmore... If I've got the lock I've got the lock I've got the lock. It doesn't interact with the theme of the deck, though, which I'm convinced is creating overwhelming card advantage. I'm thinking words of waste is still gold. It doesn't work with Shirei directly, but it plays well enough off his ability to generate card advantage... not just Mind's Eye or other draw spells. I'll still keep the geth's in the wishboard for my dream combo, though... Lol.
Ive just recently got into EDH and i have to say that its a great part of magic!
After trying some generals i stuck for this guy, due to its interactions with all of the creatures. Alltho i went a different route than OP, playing less creatures and more of drain spells with bösium strip , this deck really fits my playstyle.
I like your decklist here but i dont like to play with that many creatures, maybe i ahve to when my friends adapt to this deck and find cards against me
What really annoys me for most of the time is that i see myself spending Demonic, vampiric and Tainted Pact to just find creatures. Where i feel that i should use them to find cards such as drain life, corrupt and other game-ending spells.
Another thing that annoys me is that buried alive and entomb is pretty much useless because of the non-recursive interaction with Shirei. What use do you have for entomb?, just asking here.
May i also add that Tabernacle is a great card to use for sacrificing your creatures in earlygame, with a Shirei fiered out via sol ring or mana vault. (i took that route instead)
This can set a early lock on your opponent via thoughtpicker witch and annoying blockers.
Edit= a great use for entomb/buried alive is the synergy with Corpse Dance , combine this with a sacrifice outlet and you got endless simulacrums and duplicants. This have been a plan b/c if shirei got picked off too many times, and im missing coffers in play.
Hello!
Most of the time, I use Entomb to get Reassembling Skeleton, which allows me to abuse my sac outlets as early as turn 3, without waiting up for Shirei. Shutting the board down with a turn 3 Contamination might get some chairs flown at your head, but I still think it's worth it. He also has a little more resiliency than Sherei, as he won't get countered, and if he's destroyed his casting cost doesn't go up at all. We can also protect him from RFG effects with our sac outlets like High Market, and he protects himself from graveyard hate. I agree, though, that Burried Alive would be pretty useless, as it just doesn't have enough targets.
In the later stages of the game I can use entomb with a little more versatility, maybe grabbing the Nether Traitor or grabbing something for my other recursion engines, whether it be Crucible of Worlds, Coffin Queen, Myr Retriever, Cadaver Imp, or Scarecrone. It's also good for sinking our Necropotence in case of Mindslaver, though that's rarely a concern as slaver's going to devastate our board position regardless of whether 'potence is out or not. I've been happy with Entomb as long as I've run it... but given that it's my favorite tutor in the history of magic... I might be a little biased.
I like your ideas of using Bosium Strip and Corpse Dance, but I don't think they'd fit this build so well. The strength with most of the creatures and Shirei is I can abuse them every turn, not just my own, whether I'm up against 4 opponents or 10 opponents. This means the deck actually explodes with advantage the more we're up against. 3 opponents, 4 turns to 1 we play. 9 opponents, 10 turns to 1 we play. It's just absolutely sick, and that's why I love Shirei EDH. There may not be a lot to protect Shirei, but with the strong tutor package we've got skills to grab protection for him at every CMC before he drops... Thoughtpicker Witch, Lightning Greaves, Contamination, and Shield of Kaldra, specifically. I've also considered adding Whispersilk Cloak, but it hasn't been necessary. Imp's Mischief would probably go in before that.
I would be very interested in seeing your creature package, and how many players you usually put your deck up against? I've been considering bringing this deck to a 1v1 tournament, obviously with some major changes meant for targeting a single player, and probably a larger ramp package.
I love that Grimoire combo. Definitely gonna get those cards to throw into a monoblack deck...in time, I hope it to be Umezawa. I'll likely still be hoping, though.
Haha, yeah. I decided it's worth paying half my life for.
Opponent draws a card. Pay 1 for Mind's Eye, Pay 1 for Words of Waste... each opponent discards, draw 5 from Geth's or... no.. pay 5 with Words of Waste, and draw 25 cards, and your opponents have noooothiiiiing! All on your opponent's draw step.
Unfortunately, my opponents rarely have 25 cards to discard... haha. I guess it's not a bad problem to have.
Toshiro Umezawa looks like a fun general, I've never seen him played before. I enjoy him in a graveyard-matters themed "fat stack" I have. I was thinking of making a deck that could actually swap between him and Kiku, Night's Flower as generals, as I often enjoy the design challenge of making decks that swap generals.
You're right about Carnage Altar. It's near the top of my list of cuts right now... I've been running it over Syphon Mind lately, but I might just have enough card draw power without it to test another utility.
I've been making slot of changes while testing this deck recently and found out I was only running 99... Yawgmoth's Will has taken that slot and Demonic Collusion is in the board. I might just have to put Butcher of Malakir back in mainboard over altar... or another solution to artifacts/enchantments, or syphon mind which is good, or I might test Imp's mischief.
I agree the crucible/mine lock is lame. I avoid it early game... But I am proud of my repeatable nonbasic Dust Bowl/Spawning Pool synergy with Shirei, as killing nonbasics is always acceptable.
And yes, thoughtpicker witch is my favorite "lock" in the deck. So underestimated, so so powerful. Combine with any other recurring disruption or soft lock you have and filtering relevant cards out just gets easier and easier.
Edit: I just found an Insidious Bookworms and thought to myself some recurring random instant-speed discard wouldn't be too bad either.
Thanks! I'm glad you like the thread. There are a few good Shirei lists bumping around the site that helped me find my choices. I seem to remember seeing lists by viperesque, Big Jim, and haoban who've made some input here, too. We should start a Shirei Player's club or something... Lol.
Thrull Surgeon is great, but I just wish I could find him outside of his sorcery speed limitation. It seems highly unlikely that'll happen, though.
I'm liking Tainted Pact more and more as I consider it. It has a lot of potential for such a low cost... Likely better than most blue instant-speed draws. I'd be a little nervous to lower my nonbasic count to get better use of it, but it's still probably worthwhile right now.
I also tried Nirkana Revenant at one point, too, but just wasn't satisfied. I took Pawn of Ulamog over her for the ability to generate and save "mana" through phases and turns, and just having some tokens to abuse isn't bad.
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale would butcher said eldrazi tokens... but not too much. Jow's it working for you? I could see it hosing a lot if decks that like creatures and/or tokens. I feel I have to try that one out in here... definitely.
I'm still testing with the Thawing Glaciers. I think they've been helping out with hitting drops, which gives the deck more stability for our midgame. Fetching nonbasics is good for coffers, too, as I'm running a lot of nonbasic utility lands. Right now Urborg fixes more black than Coffers sometimes.
Somehow... explaining this reminded me how Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds will work with my crucible of worlds... (yay). Maybe I'll even consider some off-color fetches. I've been ignoring them as slow, negligible filtering...
Plague Wind is alright, but usually it's not the sweeper for this deck. When we want a creature sweeper, it means ours aren't working their magic, or more often, we've lost board position. At this point Damnation does everything we'd want out of Plague Wind. However, when I'm backed into this kind of corner, there's only one sweeper in the game of Magic I want.
I love this card. No other sweeper will do. I find the deck can capitalize much more on a Decree of Pain than any other sweeper. The cycling is relevant, the card advantage is amazing, and the few times I've dropped it with a Black Market out have made it exceptionally brilliant... especially if it lands a yawgwin in your hand.
I'm glad I'm not the only guy who thinks pawn is awesome in this deck.
I got to play with Tabernacle a little bit, and have to say I like it a lot. It puts more pressure on decks that might have answers to some of our early plays to tap out or give away what's in their hand. It didn't really interfere with Pawn, either, just slowed him down... it wasn't problematic though.
I'm not sold on the brooch's necessity, as usually the witch can sift out the instants... just seems like a weaker, less versatile, and slower version of thoughtpicker witch in the lock. I do see how a double of her is never bad, and it probably helps a lot besides maintaining the lock, so I'm going to give it a slot in the sideboard. If I can abuse it it'll be worth a death wish, I'm thinking.
5 Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
Creatures 22
1 Thoughtpicker Witch
1 Viscera Seer
1 Mindlash Sliver
1 Plagued Rusalka
1 Heap Doll
1 Insidious Bookworms
2 Abyssal Gatekeeper
2 Ashen-Skin Zubera
2 Reassembling Skeleton
2 Myr Retriever
3 Pawn of Ulamog
3 Noxious Toad
3 Bone Shredder
3 Cadaver Imp
3 Pilgrim's Eye
3 Coffin Queen
3 Scarecrone
4 Dimir House Guard
4 Mindless Automaton
4 Marsh Flitter
5 Stuffy Doll
6 Triskelion
Artifacts 18
1 Expedition Map
1 Meekstone
1 Blade of the Bloodchief
1 Sol Ring
1 Skullclamp
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Nim Deathmantle
2 Scroll Rack
2 Jet Medallion
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Oblivion Stone
3 Ashnod's Altar
3 Sculpting Steel
4 Shield of Kaldra
4 Smokestack
4 Helm of Possession
5 Mind's Eye
Enchantments 9
3 Attrition
3 Contamination
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Necropotence
3 Infernal Tribute
3 Words of Waste
4 Grave Pact
5 Death Pits of Rath
5 Black Market
5 Liliana Vess
Instants 4
1 Entomb
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Shred Memory
4 Insidious Dreams
Sorceries 9
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Bitter Ordeal
3 Death Cloud
3 Pox
3 Death Wish
3 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Dimir Machinations
8 Decree of Pain
Lands 36
0 Reliquary Tower
0 Volrath's Stronghold
0 Crypt of Agadeem
0 Deserted Temple
0 Petrified Field
0 Blinkmoth Nexus
0 Mystifying Maze
0 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
0 Spawning Pool
0 Phyrexian Tower
0 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
0 Cabal Coffers
0 Cabal Pit
0 High Market
0 Dust Bowl
0 Bojuka Bog
0 Miren, the Moaning Well
0 Vesuva
0 Strip Mine
0 Thawing Glaciers
0 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
0 Terramorphic Expanse
0 Evolving Wilds
0 Wasteland
0 Swamp (x12)
2 Exsanguinate
2 Genesis Chamber
2 Nether Traitor
2 Thrull Surgeon
2 Gate to Phyrexia
3 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Phyrexian Altar
4 Leyline of the Void
5 Demonic Collusion
7 Butcher of Malakir
Of course, like any Shirei, the deck is packed to the teeth with various synergies. There's also a number of choices I haven't seen in too many deck variations, as well as some notable cards not included in my build. I'll try to get to them in later discussion, as I'm running out of time.
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
You play a lot of interesting cards. I like Black Market.
I'm not a fan of Dark Ritual in most EDH decks, and I'm not sure it works here. Also, Sign in Blood is probably better than Skull Tap. I also like Nevinyrral's Disk. Yes, O-Stone is better, but recur-able wrath (via junk diver or myr retriever) is pretty sweet.
Junktroller's been on my list of things to cut for a while now. Tapping just isn't fast enough, but gy hate is very relevant. So relevant that tapping isn't fast enough. Heap doll is a great suggestion.
I actually don't think I have a myr retriever, but I'll be keeping track of chump blocks diver makes and keep it in mind. It's probably a pretty negligible difference, and chaining creatures with ashnod's altar is fuuuuun. ;D
I don't run pent/trisk just because they either suck too much mana to run effectively or the mana's not there and their ability's as unwieldy as a tap ability. I actually just cut Trisk when I realized Dimir House Guard fetches Marsh Flitter for a total cmc 7 token engine that runs much more fluidly. Though, that's not usually first choice...
I also like house guard's synergy with Cadaver Imp. Oo la la. And man lands like Spawning Pool run great with Dust Bowl.
I wouldn't run the transmute effects if I didn't cast them. Both of those can shut certain decks down. However, I don't discount the cmc2 slot, either. Lightning Greaves usually comes first, but if I've got a sick draw engine going, or better, a pilgrim's eye engine going, scroll rack takes it. Also, abyssal gatekeeper cleans up large multiplayer boards quick- it's an easy cmc 2 soft lock.
I have to disagree with your assessment of plunge. Occasionally the lifegain has saved my game, but that's just icing on the cake. Fishing deep into your deck at instant speed is nothing to scoff at, and it always pulls up something nice. Even if you do only use it for some quick lifegain and only dig a bit, it still outclasses bottle gnomes and deathgreeter on versatility alone. I'm usually OK with exiling a bunch of cards.
I could see your case for skulltap though. I actually took arena out for this, as I like the instant gratification, but I'm realizing Phyrexian Arena's much more castable before Shirei's out, and better in the long run.
Solemn simulacrum, well, I like him but he still seems underwhelming as a cmc 4 in this deck. As ramp, well I'd like to keep pre-shirei ramp at 3 or less, and post-shirei ramp explosive and unrefined. The draw 1 just doesn't do it for me I guess.
To get my instant gratification back though I'm throwing in a Mind's Eye.
So I'm at:
-Junktroller
-skulltap
+Heap doll
+Phyrexian Arena
And I want:
+Swamp
+Mind's Eye
I think I'm good on sweepers. The meta's heavy on them and abyssal gatekeeper does me good. If I start having trouble with artifacts maybe I'll try the disk.
You might be right about ritual. It can be card disadvantage. It hasn't done me wrong, and I've always gotten a little extra mile or shirei recast out of it, though, so I'm not sure. I don't seem to miss it in games without, though, so I guess it could go.
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
Your Cadaver Imp + Dimir House guard is an intriguing idea. I wondered about Cadaver Imp; usually I don't want stuff returning to my hand. I play Apprentice Necromancer to recur stuff from the yard.
New playgroups unfamiliar with Shirei often stare in awe, mouth agape, at the utter jank turned utterly brokenly awesome by Shirei's unique ability.
I know putting cards in hand is typically slower than in play, I figured shirei would keep most p1 creatures running and apprentice necromancer's ability wouldn't do much good for larger power creatures in the yard. To return my p1 creatures to play I have a Coffin Queen as well.
Returning cards to your hand can also be good for Scroll Rack, Insidious Dreams, Mindlash Sliver, Mindless Automaton's discard ability, and for Demonic Collusion's buyback, though I recently cut that. It's good to keep in mind, though.
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
Your deck is slightly different from mine though. You play more cards that can cripple players or end games (Contamination, Death Cloud), whereas I play more draw (Phyrexian Arena, Mind's Eye).
How has Reassembling Skeleton worked for you? I thought about it, but then I wondered if his ability would just be redundant with Shirei. I like Nether Traitor because he can produce mana with Ashnod's Altar or machine gun with Attrition, and I wonder if R. Sekeleton might have some similar shenanigans?
I've though about Nezumi in place of Ravenous Rats, but doesn't that make you just as much of a target? I like the rats since they scale to the number of opponents I have well, but Nezumi has the potential to keep up with players running a bunch of card draw effects... though at sorcery speed I find it's little difference.
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
I think I'm going to hold onto my rats and skeleton. Nezumi and Traitor seem like they'd be good running alongside trisk/pent, but I'm not looking to do that ATM.
Decklist updated. Trying out phyrexian altar. It seems useful pre and post Shirei. We shall see...
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
Walking Atlas... I'm thinking probably not, but wondering if anyone's given it a shot.
Explorer's Scope Potentially a happy middle-ground between ramp and draw. I like it in some of my other decks, and it could work well with Viscera Seer and Scroll Rack.
Graveborn Muse Arena #2?
Oath of Lim-Dul Potentially dangerous... I think I kind of like that, though.
Carnage Altar Has some more synergy with the deck, but a little pricey to operate.
Greed Necropotence #2? I'm not sure about this one. Plus, well, I don't actually have this card.
Words of Waste The other option, getting rid of cards, potentially at instant speed. Definitely my style...
I think I'm mostly between the Scope, Oath, Altar, and Words. Scope seems the most politics-neutral, followed by the altar. Oath seems like a death wish but I might try pulling it off. Currently running Carnage Altar.
& honestly I think the deck could use a little more discard, as all of it's currently victim's choice discard I really want to capitalize on it as a control option. Noxious toad #3 could turn the deck into quite the beast, and though it's a paid discard and doesn't trigger gravepact, it does have potential to keep up with decks that run a lot of recurring draw effects.
Also, Thawing Glaciers. Yay or nay? It's no pilgrim's eye... but it's also not bad. Do you think it's worth it? I think I've decided to focus on a deadly mid-game over trying to get an explosive start. The ramp just seems a touch out of reach, as I love all the tricks and synergy the cards I have are making.
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
I'm shuffling your post around a bit, but it's probably worth pointing out before I dive in that my deck is built around the end-game, and tends not to even try to win before about turn 20 or so. My advice is given from that experience.
Traitor is just great. It makes another Clamp outlet, can get silly with Altar, and gives you double duty out of any given sac outlet. And it also pings! Too versatile not to have.
Well, first I have to say that I like Phyrexian Altar. It's not quite Ashnod's, but it's still pretty good as a second copy thereof.
I did, briefly. As in every other format, it just sits there. I mean, if we could have access to all the good W/G land search around, then it might do something, but it doesn't right now.
Scope doesn't do enough. It may be cheap, but all it does is ramp you every 2.5 turns. Individual impact is way more important than cost, so I'd steer well clear of it. Muse is fine as Arena #2. Bit more fragile, but not that bad. Oath is capable of backfiring so massively that I wouldn't touch it. I'd much rather go for Greed.
From my perspective, the deck needs less discard, so I'm not going to comment.
Absolutely worth it. At least, it is in my deck. More mana is always a good thing, and it cancels out its own tempo loss reasonably soon.
What exactly do you mean?
Also, what's with the wishboard? Does anyone actually use the sideboard rule?
Yes, well what I mean by the ramp being just out of reach is, well, it's just out of reach for trying to rush an early win. Steady land drops seem to be the way to go, and broken card draw ensures those. I seem to have all the mana I want without Phyrexian Altar in the mid-late game. I just can't help but think there's a quicker deck in here if I just cut some fun out. Fun wins, though.
You might be right about the discard... I need to remind myself to keep casual sometimes.
You make some fair points on Traitor. 50% more sacs/turn sounds nice, but the other benefits don't seem quite like enough. How big are your games, usually? To me it just seems like he'll exhaust my mana before we get halfway 'round the table if I'm reanimating him 3 or 4 times a turn. & the silliness with altar and pawn would sure help that, but by then I'd need another piece to sink that mana into, & if I have that I'm probably doing well enough as it is. He sounds good, but I can't imagine the case where he'd be the missing cog to work my engines. He'd just make them run a little harder for some mana. I don't know what I'd cut for that sort of effect.
After 1 game I can already tell I like carnage altar. Oath, muse, and scope are out of the running.
& lol yes we play boards. It was a new idea in the group. I haven't given the board much thought though, I mostly just like having the 'drazi there right now. It wasn't too hard taking expunge out.
Plus, this way I'll always have a few cards to swap for some of the more broken cards some playgroups might not go for (necropotence).
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
But if you want some ramp that is a bit more reliable than the Altar, why not just run Thran Dynamo or some such? It's not a sac outlet, but it gets you to 8 mana turn 5, and that's respectable.
You might be right about the discard... I need to remind myself to keep casual sometimes.
Running harder for mana is exactly what he does most of the time, but he also has such silly interactions with Clamp, Black Market and so forth. Given the fairly strong Tutor package you're going with, he is great as a best option for these. You're also running something of a paucity of Clamp engines (I count only 5 creatures you can abuse it with), and upping that number is always good.
We mostly play 4, sometimes 3 or 5.
Interesting. How do they change games? I've never had any experience with them.
There's also some other hoops I can jump through but that's besides the point. You could be right about clamp. Usually reassembling skeleton makes me happy as a clamp engine target that can run solo with my engines, but having doubles never hurt. I might have to test him out... Jeez. Do you think 36 lands is light? Lol. Actually, maybe it'll be Butcher, whom I can safely hide from bribery in my new wishboard.
Bottle Gnomes cut. I knew they wouldn't last.
I like the wishboard. I know my friend is running cunning wish. I gave him the idea to make a janky isochron scepter toolbox and he loved it. I'm enjoying the versatile wincons & answer package myself. Well, in theory more than practice... I am starting to wonder if it took some of the challenge out of construction, but I'll run with it for now. It will let me test more options at least.
And I wouldn't ever agree to more than the recommended 10 cards/board. I can see it being a little too versatile.
Updating list.
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
He performed well for the early match. Around the time my Black Market was exploding, yet before I had any significant creatures on board, he was a welcome outlet for a bit of that mana. Granted, only my main phase, it was enough to make a difference.
Late game I was less interested in him. Overall, satisfied. I didn't get too much of that brokenness, except for maybe pumping the market, but I see that potential and even without it I think he's a keeper.
Other than that the only change I've made is Ashen-Skin Zubera over Ravenous Rats for instant-speed discard over time. I think it's the better choice as I'm going with my mid-game package over my early-game package, and with all the sac outlets the difference at casting time is negligible, whilst the discard timing is much much more broken with the Zubera. Small notes: It also Scullclamps with Plagued Rusalka's help, and on the offhand chance I kill a buddy's changeling (Usually a Lin Sivvi or a Sliver Overlord at the table) bonus!
I'm also thinking of running Filth in my board for the mirror and finishing the game with Urborg/Swampwalk. Thoughts?
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
Words of Waste maindecked over Syphon Mind.
It's too much of an absolute bomb in the deck, especially as a lock with Mind's Eye. I'm even halfway considering the 3rd piece to an absolute blowout combo, Geth's Grimoire, which I've put into the sideboard.
So, what do you guys think of Words of Waste + Mind's Eye + Geth's Grimoire?
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
While this seems powerful, I feel that it detracts from the deck in that it has nothing to do with Shirei, combination s that work without Shirei are fine, but the individual cards should be included to work with him.
Gathering Magic
Goblin Artisans
Channel Fireball
Daily MTG Making Magic
Daily MTG Latest Developments
MTG Color Pie
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
Hello!
Most of the time, I use Entomb to get Reassembling Skeleton, which allows me to abuse my sac outlets as early as turn 3, without waiting up for Shirei. Shutting the board down with a turn 3 Contamination might get some chairs flown at your head, but I still think it's worth it. He also has a little more resiliency than Sherei, as he won't get countered, and if he's destroyed his casting cost doesn't go up at all. We can also protect him from RFG effects with our sac outlets like High Market, and he protects himself from graveyard hate. I agree, though, that Burried Alive would be pretty useless, as it just doesn't have enough targets.
In the later stages of the game I can use entomb with a little more versatility, maybe grabbing the Nether Traitor or grabbing something for my other recursion engines, whether it be Crucible of Worlds, Coffin Queen, Myr Retriever, Cadaver Imp, or Scarecrone. It's also good for sinking our Necropotence in case of Mindslaver, though that's rarely a concern as slaver's going to devastate our board position regardless of whether 'potence is out or not. I've been happy with Entomb as long as I've run it... but given that it's my favorite tutor in the history of magic... I might be a little biased.
I like your ideas of using Bosium Strip and Corpse Dance, but I don't think they'd fit this build so well. The strength with most of the creatures and Shirei is I can abuse them every turn, not just my own, whether I'm up against 4 opponents or 10 opponents. This means the deck actually explodes with advantage the more we're up against. 3 opponents, 4 turns to 1 we play. 9 opponents, 10 turns to 1 we play. It's just absolutely sick, and that's why I love Shirei EDH. There may not be a lot to protect Shirei, but with the strong tutor package we've got skills to grab protection for him at every CMC before he drops... Thoughtpicker Witch, Lightning Greaves, Contamination, and Shield of Kaldra, specifically. I've also considered adding Whispersilk Cloak, but it hasn't been necessary. Imp's Mischief would probably go in before that.
I would be very interested in seeing your creature package, and how many players you usually put your deck up against? I've been considering bringing this deck to a 1v1 tournament, obviously with some major changes meant for targeting a single player, and probably a larger ramp package.
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
I didn't know Words of Waste hit everyone, though. SWEET. I was sick of getting Mind Twisted.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Opponent draws a card. Pay 1 for Mind's Eye, Pay 1 for Words of Waste... each opponent discards, draw 5 from Geth's or... no.. pay 5 with Words of Waste, and draw 25 cards, and your opponents have noooothiiiiing! All on your opponent's draw step.
Unfortunately, my opponents rarely have 25 cards to discard... haha. I guess it's not a bad problem to have.
There are some generals that fit Geth's better. Nath of the Gilt-Leaf comes to mind, or Greel, Mind Raker.
Toshiro Umezawa looks like a fun general, I've never seen him played before. I enjoy him in a graveyard-matters themed "fat stack" I have. I was thinking of making a deck that could actually swap between him and Kiku, Night's Flower as generals, as I often enjoy the design challenge of making decks that swap generals.
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
I've been making slot of changes while testing this deck recently and found out I was only running 99... Yawgmoth's Will has taken that slot and Demonic Collusion is in the board. I might just have to put Butcher of Malakir back in mainboard over altar... or another solution to artifacts/enchantments, or syphon mind which is good, or I might test Imp's mischief.
I agree the crucible/mine lock is lame. I avoid it early game... But I am proud of my repeatable nonbasic Dust Bowl/Spawning Pool synergy with Shirei, as killing nonbasics is always acceptable.
And yes, thoughtpicker witch is my favorite "lock" in the deck. So underestimated, so so powerful. Combine with any other recurring disruption or soft lock you have and filtering relevant cards out just gets easier and easier.
Edit: I just found an Insidious Bookworms and thought to myself some recurring random instant-speed discard wouldn't be too bad either.
Oh, & since you mentioned lifegain sac outlets, you might be interested in Deathgreeter, Bottle Gnomes, or Death Cultist.
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
Thrull Surgeon is great, but I just wish I could find him outside of his sorcery speed limitation. It seems highly unlikely that'll happen, though.
I'm liking Tainted Pact more and more as I consider it. It has a lot of potential for such a low cost... Likely better than most blue instant-speed draws. I'd be a little nervous to lower my nonbasic count to get better use of it, but it's still probably worthwhile right now.
Null Brooch looks like a good find, too. Interesting tech with that Bottled Cloister, and that cloister goes great with Mindslicer.
I also tried Nirkana Revenant at one point, too, but just wasn't satisfied. I took Pawn of Ulamog over her for the ability to generate and save "mana" through phases and turns, and just having some tokens to abuse isn't bad.
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale would butcher said eldrazi tokens... but not too much. Jow's it working for you? I could see it hosing a lot if decks that like creatures and/or tokens. I feel I have to try that one out in here... definitely.
I'm still testing with the Thawing Glaciers. I think they've been helping out with hitting drops, which gives the deck more stability for our midgame. Fetching nonbasics is good for coffers, too, as I'm running a lot of nonbasic utility lands. Right now Urborg fixes more black than Coffers sometimes.
Somehow... explaining this reminded me how Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds will work with my crucible of worlds... (yay). Maybe I'll even consider some off-color fetches. I've been ignoring them as slow, negligible filtering...
Plague Wind is alright, but usually it's not the sweeper for this deck. When we want a creature sweeper, it means ours aren't working their magic, or more often, we've lost board position. At this point Damnation does everything we'd want out of Plague Wind. However, when I'm backed into this kind of corner, there's only one sweeper in the game of Magic I want.
Decree of Pain
I love this card. No other sweeper will do. I find the deck can capitalize much more on a Decree of Pain than any other sweeper. The cycling is relevant, the card advantage is amazing, and the few times I've dropped it with a Black Market out have made it exceptionally brilliant... especially if it lands a yawgwin in your hand.
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
I got to play with Tabernacle a little bit, and have to say I like it a lot. It puts more pressure on decks that might have answers to some of our early plays to tap out or give away what's in their hand. It didn't really interfere with Pawn, either, just slowed him down... it wasn't problematic though.
I'm not sold on the brooch's necessity, as usually the witch can sift out the instants... just seems like a weaker, less versatile, and slower version of thoughtpicker witch in the lock. I do see how a double of her is never bad, and it probably helps a lot besides maintaining the lock, so I'm going to give it a slot in the sideboard. If I can abuse it it'll be worth a death wish, I'm thinking.
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm