Recently, a friend of mine had a run in with an online shop based on the fact that they thought he was doing online speculative buying. I wont go into detail, and you can read the entry about it here:
There was a rebuttal blog post made, by a party not involved with the issue above, which i found well written, and worth a read as well. Its located here:
What are your opinions on the subject? I encourage well thought out responses, none of that internet garbage that's so common like "wow that site sucks" and then no support for your statement. Of course someone will do that and think its cute. Don't. You just make yourself look like an uneducated individual.
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Capitalization is the difference between "Helping your Uncle Jack off his horse", and helping your uncle jack off his horse.
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I agree with the op shops that cancel orders and relist have no integrity. Sell what you offered at the price you offered it, then change your prices if needed. Dont cmplain about margins on completed sales you most likely already turned a profit on. That makes you no better then the speculators you claim are praying on you IMO
If the store had a policy up on the site that said they could cancel orders, they can cancel orders. Fine print sucks, but in this society fine print still counts and technically you should have read everything first if you wanted to be sure that things go down the way you think they do. A company doesn't have to do business with you if it doesn't want to. It can't discriminate based on race, age, gender, or handicapped status, but it can darn well discriminate you for another reason, especially if it's clearly in the interest of the store turning maximum profits. The U.S. legal system has upheld cases like a landlord refusing to allow an individual to rent from him because that individual was a lawyer. The basis didn't have to do with a protected status, it had to do with something else, (a lawyer is more likely to litigate over stuff like asbestos or other mishaps), so it was the landlord's right to do so. Picc's "already turned a profit on" is not proper thinking, businesses can only be expected to behave like businesses, and that means maximum profit. If a business stops trying to maximize profits it stops existing so it's unfair to expect it to do anything else.
It's a store, they can do what they want. You can boycott them if you want too, that's your choice. They haven't done anything unethical or unfair though, so I'm not sure why you're here trying to libel them.
Just to be clear, I'm not taking an "antispeculator" side here, there's nothing wrong with speculating either, and I encourage you to go try to catch another online store off guard.
I agree with the op. If I'm running a shop and I'm selling a card that I have 20 of for .5 each and someone wants all 20, then I will be a happy man. These shops seem to be avoiding doing the leg work of keeping up with values of cards. A store that will cancel an order for something so small and not much $ shows alot. They expect us all to lay down like dogs and take this kind of disrespect? Not in today's day and age.
Also a bad idea is to roast people for their opinion of the appropriateness of the post in question when your entire defense is based on your opinion of the appropriateness of the post.
The store's only mistake was actually getting into the argument with you instead of saying "whatever, neg me, I don't care. I won't transact a deal I am not comfortable with"
A store can sell to speculators or not sell to speculators. If you don't like their practices, don't buy from them. Capitalism makes this easy
If they make a speculator quit buying, they might profit off of that anyway. You'll leave those 20 Renegade Doppelgangers lying around in the store more often and they'll get to sell them to locals for more significant profits.
Sure it must be hard for them to keep up the the future sale prices of all the cards, but if you are worried about that, then don't sell online where things happen at a much faster pace. Just sell in store and sell the main money making singles online so that you don't have to monitor as many cards.
The point here isn't that they canceled him for being a speculator. They canceled him on suspicion of it, not of proof. He ordered a large amount. For all they know, he's ordering for himself and four friends instead of making four separate orders.
This type of attitude isn't acceptable. It's the type of store that's likely as not to refund a single card purchase and up the price and say just the same. They're just trying to gouge the customer, and that shows when he comments at the end on their prices compared that of their competitors.
@popsofctown While I agree with your statement had this been a first sale issue, being that he had already successfully bought an even larger quantity of Armarment Masters from the same shop with no issue, it was bad business practice to decide to enforce their fine print after the card in question had done well. What happens when the next person goes and does a speculative buy on cards? Will it be refunded while they hold to their "store policies"? I think the real question is "did the card perform well in a recent tournament?" As I stated in the first blog, if you don't want to lose profit to speculators, get some of your own to work for you, and keep your prices updated early to avoid this. As far as ethics go, that's a gray area in this situation. Good business ethics/customer relations were violated and damaged here, and in this instance word got out and has spread. He's cost himself far more in future possibilities than hes made not completing the sale for the advertised price.
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Capitalization is the difference between "Helping your Uncle Jack off his horse", and helping your uncle jack off his horse.
Read my article series Endless Horizons every Tuesday on Quietspeculation.com and follow me on twitter, @MTGstephenmoss
I don't see it as crappy, actually. They refused to sell cheap to someone who quite obviously was buying to sell expensive. They refused to let you play the market. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have cancelled had you just bought a few of the Renegade Doppelgangers. It is their right to keep their stock, and in the best interests of their clientele. TrollAndToad has been doing this same thing with the Elspeth Vs Tezzeret, every day someone comes in and tries to buy the 10+ sets they have. The following day, they're all back in stock, with 1 or 2 sets less. Its been going on for over a week now, every day. It is their right, and in the best interest of their customers to sell said sets to SEVERAL people, rather than someone who hogs them to resell more expensive. Live with it.
Wow this is pretty bad...
Now I know why so many people have respect and order from places like Starcity Games.
See? Just the fact that I mentioned their site here on this forum can tell a lot about what a company is doing right for their image.
Sure, some say that their prices are high and I tend to agree with that sentiment occasionally, but at least stores like them, ABU, strikezone, and others I'm sure that I haven't listed don't pull this sort of B.S.
If a store agrees to something, it is probably in their best interest to see it through, (or to borrow the old saying; "the customer is always right") because it's paramount to satisfy customers to get return business and to gain notoriety, especially in today internet savvy world.
It may be just me, but it seems that if a store is going to complain about selling their cards for profit (as obviously they would have listed any cards on their website at a price that previously would have been of no detriment to them.) , just not as much, then maybe they shouldn't sell on the internet...
(Although for the arguments sake, I think that the store had a right to refuse your order if they had a previously stated policy about it. However it is still a **** move and I just wouldn't order there again in the future.)
They haven't done anything unethical or unfair though, so I'm not sure why you're here trying to libel them.
If I need/want 30 copies of a card and I find a store that has them, I purchase them. They cancel my order for no real reason? That is very unfair. What did I do wrong? What did the original person do wrong? Nothing.
Also a bad idea is to roast people for their opinion of the appropriateness of the post in question when your entire defense is based on your opinion of the appropriateness of the post.
Gotta love the hypocrisy. An online card shop, based on the ideas of capitalism and a free market, rejects an order because the buyer could make a profit. I hope this guy goes bankrupt, among other tragedies.
@popsofctown While I agree with your statement had this been a first sale issue, being that he had already successfully bought an even larger quantity of Armarment Masters from the same shop with no issue, it was bad business practice to decide to enforce their fine print after the card in question had done well. What happens when the next person goes and does a speculative buy on cards? Will it be refunded while they hold to their "store policies"? I think the real question is "did the card perform well in a recent tournament?" As I stated in the first blog, if you don't want to lose profit to speculators, get some of your own to work for you, and keep your prices updated early to avoid this. As far as ethics go, that's a gray area in this situation. Good business ethics/customer relations were violated and damaged here, and in this instance word got out and has spread. He's cost himself far more in future possibilities than hes made not completing the sale for the advertised price.
I see that as being a good way to tick off an individual customer and lose him, but it's still not wrong. In light of this company's written policy, ordering cards amounts to a request to buy that many cards, a request they can decline for whatever reason they want. The fact it's based off of a tournament result doesn't really affect anyone's rights or obligations here.
I do see that they were basically lying to you when they said they wanted to hold stock for local customers, but that is not an offense on the same scale you and those that agree with you accuse the store of.
In any event, I'm not sure where the question is here. Dude ordered from a site that states they have the right to cancel any order any time for any reason. Granted, canceling an order has its consequences (dissapointed customer etc) but sometimes fulfilling the order has worse consequences. From a pure business standpoint, the choice is theirs, and if you chose to order from a store that reserves the right to cancel, then you took your chances. They canceled, they don't get your money, you don't get your cards, life goes on. It would be quite another story if that policy weren't posted, but being that it is posted, sorry, but no one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy from them. Take your business to another store that will fulfill the order and move on with life.
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@ebonclaw The issue didn't start until the last e-mail they sent. Business 101, the customer is right. looking at the possible long term fallout vs the short term loss, they made a fundamental business error which has cost them far more than the possible $10 (and only that much if someone else buys them out at their current price right now)
@popsofctown The person with the issue wasn't me I just brought it up to the public eye that this happened. I believe the individual it happened to does have an account here though.
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Capitalization is the difference between "Helping your Uncle Jack off his horse", and helping your uncle jack off his horse.
Read my article series Endless Horizons every Tuesday on Quietspeculation.com and follow me on twitter, @MTGstephenmoss
Then that's their choice to make that business error, and their right as stated by their posted policy. It may or may not be a bad business choice, but they aren't violating any posted policies here. If it's a bad choice, fine, whatever, that's their problem, not the speculator's.
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I'm afraid that's a little too simplistic. The customer is not, in fact, always right, but the customer does always have the right to be treated fairly. Even if fairly means the customer doesn't get to exploit a lag on the price gun on the secondary market.
I was thinking about it more last night. Seems to me this could all be avoided in the future if the store only posts say 2 playsets of a given rare for sale online (since thats what they offered to sell him anyway) then re stalks their online store.
Now all that said rejecting a order for $10 of potential profit is just silly imo. Sure its posted policy but honestly its not like he ordered 22 imperial recruters for that price. A couple hundred in potential sales might be worth offending a customer for but not $10.
It's very hard for what is the most part a one man show to keep up with pricing trends. A large store like SCG has price increases built in. They may only show 8 online when they have 80, but if you buy those 8 the prices will go up automatically for the next 8. That's how cards get to be $80 during spoiler season because people want them.
The biggest issue with wanting to keep cards in stock is for people who want to order a whole deck. Are you going to give him your $300 order for a whole deck since he's out of 1 50c card? Maybe, maybe not.
I talked to my LGS owner who supports himself online and he cancels large orders he can't trust also. (He told me of a couple of orders in the several thousand dollar range that he canceled, but he didn't indicate he would do it over 20 cards). He indicated that he got burned on Eye of Ugin pretty hard, but I know he shipped the cards.
Heath adds a lot to the MTG community. Perhaps he should have bit the bullet on this one, and perhaps chasing the guy's email down was a little berrating rather than just let it slide. In my nearly 13 years of experience with the online MTG market I know its fickle. Perhaps this deck is the next thing, but perhaps that card is a dud. I had at least two people speculate on my Lodestone Golems when I was selling WWK. I shipped them all at $3.50 each despite that being somewhat below the going market. I don't regret it, but then I only had 12 up for sale at a time.
My point is that for every time you get speculated on there are other times where the speculator looses, especially when the deck is a one hit wonder.
If anything this is Heath's way of saying "I'll fill orders that are only 4-8 of each card".
@MTGVeteran. I don't think you did anything wrong with your order, or writing about your experience. I wouldn't bring up ChannelFireball into it as a model of customer service though, considering they are the store that pioneered the 'takeback if we don't like the price' system. Just go down to market street and read the comments on ChannelFireball. Now maybe they changed that since thier ebay feedback was so bad thier first account got shut down, but I personally have plenty of other stores I'd buy from first.
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All in all, I think nobody was/did anything particularly wrong, but either way it's uncouth no matter which way you shake it.
On one hand you should sell your cards under the stock you post under the price you post up to the very last one available no matter what. So even though the shop owner has every legal right to refuse the purchase, it's still an uncouth maneuver.
But on the other hand, there is no reasonable excusable reason why you NEED 30 copies of a renegade doppleganger. So although you have every right to purchase every copy under the sun of a certain card until you have 100+ of that card in your collection, you are also hoarding cards and it's generally looked down upon (at least in my area) for someone to purchase all of ANYTHING that would normally be of a significant stock. Such as someone who buys an entire case of booster boxes of a freshly released set. They are hoarding all of the new cards that the brick and mortar shop just got in, and preventing anybody else from that area to be able to reasonable compete because they would keep buying all the boosters.
So case in point, just because you CAN buy all the copies of a single card, doesn't mean you should. And just because you CAN refuse a perfectly legitimate sale, doesn't mean you should.
Instead of wasting your time arguing with the store about renigging a transaction, he should spend his time finding the next store that would accept it.
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http://mtgwar.blogspot.com/2010/08/cape-fear-games-fails.html
There was a rebuttal blog post made, by a party not involved with the issue above, which i found well written, and worth a read as well. Its located here:
http://donsmagicandsundry.blogspot.com/2010/08/case-against-speculation-of-any-volume.html
What are your opinions on the subject? I encourage well thought out responses, none of that internet garbage that's so common like "wow that site sucks" and then no support for your statement. Of course someone will do that and think its cute. Don't. You just make yourself look like an uneducated individual.
Read my article series Endless Horizons every Tuesday on Quietspeculation.com and follow me on twitter, @MTGstephenmoss
Currently looking to buy miscut Homelands, (my wife thinks I'm crazy too).
Semper Gumby (Always Flexible)
It's a store, they can do what they want. You can boycott them if you want too, that's your choice. They haven't done anything unethical or unfair though, so I'm not sure why you're here trying to libel them.
Just to be clear, I'm not taking an "antispeculator" side here, there's nothing wrong with speculating either, and I encourage you to go try to catch another online store off guard.
A store can sell to speculators or not sell to speculators. If you don't like their practices, don't buy from them. Capitalism makes this easy
Sure it must be hard for them to keep up the the future sale prices of all the cards, but if you are worried about that, then don't sell online where things happen at a much faster pace. Just sell in store and sell the main money making singles online so that you don't have to monitor as many cards.
This type of attitude isn't acceptable. It's the type of store that's likely as not to refund a single card purchase and up the price and say just the same. They're just trying to gouge the customer, and that shows when he comments at the end on their prices compared that of their competitors.
My helpdesk should you need me.
Read my article series Endless Horizons every Tuesday on Quietspeculation.com and follow me on twitter, @MTGstephenmoss
Now I know why so many people have respect and order from places like Starcity Games.
See? Just the fact that I mentioned their site here on this forum can tell a lot about what a company is doing right for their image.
Sure, some say that their prices are high and I tend to agree with that sentiment occasionally, but at least stores like them, ABU, strikezone, and others I'm sure that I haven't listed don't pull this sort of B.S.
If a store agrees to something, it is probably in their best interest to see it through, (or to borrow the old saying; "the customer is always right") because it's paramount to satisfy customers to get return business and to gain notoriety, especially in today internet savvy world.
It may be just me, but it seems that if a store is going to complain about selling their cards for profit (as obviously they would have listed any cards on their website at a price that previously would have been of no detriment to them.) , just not as much, then maybe they shouldn't sell on the internet...
(Although for the arguments sake, I think that the store had a right to refuse your order if they had a previously stated policy about it. However it is still a **** move and I just wouldn't order there again in the future.)
Thanks to Rivenor @ //forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663"/"> Miraculous Recovery for the Sig!
If I need/want 30 copies of a card and I find a store that has them, I purchase them. They cancel my order for no real reason? That is very unfair. What did I do wrong? What did the original person do wrong? Nothing.
I see that as being a good way to tick off an individual customer and lose him, but it's still not wrong. In light of this company's written policy, ordering cards amounts to a request to buy that many cards, a request they can decline for whatever reason they want. The fact it's based off of a tournament result doesn't really affect anyone's rights or obligations here.
I do see that they were basically lying to you when they said they wanted to hold stock for local customers, but that is not an offense on the same scale you and those that agree with you accuse the store of.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
@popsofctown The person with the issue wasn't me I just brought it up to the public eye that this happened. I believe the individual it happened to does have an account here though.
Read my article series Endless Horizons every Tuesday on Quietspeculation.com and follow me on twitter, @MTGstephenmoss
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
I'm afraid that's a little too simplistic. The customer is not, in fact, always right, but the customer does always have the right to be treated fairly. Even if fairly means the customer doesn't get to exploit a lag on the price gun on the secondary market.
Now all that said rejecting a order for $10 of potential profit is just silly imo. Sure its posted policy but honestly its not like he ordered 22 imperial recruters for that price. A couple hundred in potential sales might be worth offending a customer for but not $10.
Currently looking to buy miscut Homelands, (my wife thinks I'm crazy too).
Semper Gumby (Always Flexible)
Armament masters sell pretty high these days.
The biggest issue with wanting to keep cards in stock is for people who want to order a whole deck. Are you going to give him your $300 order for a whole deck since he's out of 1 50c card? Maybe, maybe not.
I talked to my LGS owner who supports himself online and he cancels large orders he can't trust also. (He told me of a couple of orders in the several thousand dollar range that he canceled, but he didn't indicate he would do it over 20 cards). He indicated that he got burned on Eye of Ugin pretty hard, but I know he shipped the cards.
Heath adds a lot to the MTG community. Perhaps he should have bit the bullet on this one, and perhaps chasing the guy's email down was a little berrating rather than just let it slide. In my nearly 13 years of experience with the online MTG market I know its fickle. Perhaps this deck is the next thing, but perhaps that card is a dud. I had at least two people speculate on my Lodestone Golems when I was selling WWK. I shipped them all at $3.50 each despite that being somewhat below the going market. I don't regret it, but then I only had 12 up for sale at a time.
My point is that for every time you get speculated on there are other times where the speculator looses, especially when the deck is a one hit wonder.
If anything this is Heath's way of saying "I'll fill orders that are only 4-8 of each card".
@MTGVeteran. I don't think you did anything wrong with your order, or writing about your experience. I wouldn't bring up ChannelFireball into it as a model of customer service though, considering they are the store that pioneered the 'takeback if we don't like the price' system. Just go down to market street and read the comments on ChannelFireball. Now maybe they changed that since thier ebay feedback was so bad thier first account got shut down, but I personally have plenty of other stores I'd buy from first.
On one hand you should sell your cards under the stock you post under the price you post up to the very last one available no matter what. So even though the shop owner has every legal right to refuse the purchase, it's still an uncouth maneuver.
But on the other hand, there is no reasonable excusable reason why you NEED 30 copies of a renegade doppleganger. So although you have every right to purchase every copy under the sun of a certain card until you have 100+ of that card in your collection, you are also hoarding cards and it's generally looked down upon (at least in my area) for someone to purchase all of ANYTHING that would normally be of a significant stock. Such as someone who buys an entire case of booster boxes of a freshly released set. They are hoarding all of the new cards that the brick and mortar shop just got in, and preventing anybody else from that area to be able to reasonable compete because they would keep buying all the boosters.
So case in point, just because you CAN buy all the copies of a single card, doesn't mean you should. And just because you CAN refuse a perfectly legitimate sale, doesn't mean you should.