[Deck] Bant

[Kevinliu]

Originally Posted by aaronc123

I have never liked using CounterTop in any color combinations. I guess that I may be too aggressive, but i could never get it consistently even with 4 and 4 copies. That is one of the great parts of this archetype, as i explained in the primer, one can adjust to his/her play style.

I'm not the greatest CTop player, but IMO, to get the "softlock" online and to have a better counterspell suite... the core should not have any Spell Snare Main board, and should have 4 tops and 4 Counterbalance Main. I feel that Qasali doesn't fit either, in the control build.

Something like this:


I think I like Counterspell over Daze in this type of shell. I feel that you don't want to lose tempo by bouncing Islands and you need to cast Counterbalance anyways.

Brining in Firespout or EE from the board and/or Spell Snare can strengthen up the Tribal matchups.

I agree with all your points.

I think counterspell is pretty solid in a countertop shell but sometimes daze can just be better since it's free. Also, since you play with Noble Hiearachs bouncing an island from casting a Daze for free isn't really all that bad.

[Warden]

Originally Posted by aaronc123

I have never liked using CounterTop in any color combinations. I guess that I may be too aggressive, but i could never get it consistently even with 4 and 4 copies. That is one of the great parts of this archetype, as i explained in the primer, one can adjust to his/her play style.

I'm not the greatest CTop player, but IMO, to get the "softlock" online and to have a better counterspell suite... the core should not have any Spell Snare Main board, and should have 4 tops and 4 Counterbalance Main. I feel that Qasali doesn't fit either, in the control build.

Something like this:


I think I like Counterspell over Daze in this type of shell. I feel that you don't want to lose tempo by bouncing Islands and you need to cast Counterbalance anyways.

Brining in Firespout or EE from the board and/or Spell Snare can strengthen up the Tribal matchups.

I totally agree with Kev. This is one of the best posts I've read in December (and I've been quietly looking at a LOT of stuff). I may not post much in this thread, but this is spot-on.

Question - Would you consider Clique to be in a more control-ish build? I looked at that core and thought the girls fit nicely. Especially if you're thinking of nixing Q.Pridemage for control-focused.

[Kevinliu]

Clique was played in the 4c countertop list that top 8 at GP columbus and I felt that deck was one of the most controlling aggro-control builds around. Clique provided as both a clock and a disruption spell in one package and seemed to be quite powerful with Jace 2.0 and counterbalance.

Although, clique can also be effective in tempo oriented aggro-control builds like New Horizons, Team America, and of course Tempo Bant. From playing experience, Vendillion Clique is quite good against blue based decks while not as good against red based decks like zoo and goblins. But people might play clique in the zoo matchup to try to gain card advantage of 2 to 1 by grabbing a creature from their hand and then the zoo player would attempt to remove the clique with a burn spell or a pte.

[Nefarsus]

Well I finally got my deck completed this past week! I got to play a few games on Thursday at my LGS. First I played my little brother who just got the Premium Fire and Lightning deck for Christmas. This wasn't a very fair match up so game 1 I kept a hand with a couple lands, 2 forces, 1 goyf, 1 top, and a Swords. Pretty slow game for me, not getting any good draws. Mid game I get CounterTop out. I end up losing a turn before I could have won. Haha. He ended up with good draws. He wins with Fireblast Reverberate, no counters in hand, hilarity ensues. We played several more games. He manages to beat me 3 or 4 out of 12 games. I manage Turn 4 Progenitus twice.

After that went to my LGS. Only 2 of the Legacy players show up. It's insanely packed. 29 people show up to draft. I managed to play one of them between his rounds. He has a Stax deck. I've read very little about other decks, and only know the basic idea of Stax.

Games 1 and 2 were completely rape for me. Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere lock me out. Game 2 I managed to start with Turn 1 and Hierarch, Turn 2 Goyf, Turn 3 Hierarch. He responds with Magus of the Tabernacle and Armageddon. I have no chance to recover. Game 3 I was doing a bit better, but the next draft round was called mid game so we had to stop.

The people watching us told me it was a bad match up for me, but damn that was so scary. My first real match and I was just completely wrecked. I still haven't put together a sideboard. For Stax obviously Krosan Grip would go in, Trygon Predator, Tormod's Crypt seem very useful as well. He was running Crucible/Wasteland. Is that match up just generally an uphill battle? I would like to go in next week with a better chance against that guy.

All in all, it was great to complete my first deck and actually get to use it. I managed to also acquire, 2 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Sword of Body and Mind, and 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor via trades. Going to try the Aggro and Excalibur versions out this week. I traded one of my FTV: Exiled sets for a Jace, and someone else is interested in doing the offer next Thursday. So I may just cave and buy a 3rd Jace to try a different control version out.

On a side note, the burns deck is a LOT better than the Slivers. Has some good Legacy singles in it. I recommend it to anyone, going to pick one up today for myself. My little brother is new to Magic and really enjoyed that deck so much. I've been trying to get him to play Legacy, and we looked into the Legacy Burn deck. He was very opposed to getting into Legacy just because of reading about decks that are capable of turn 1 wins. After looking at the Burn list, he changed his tune and should have all the needed cards by next week. Grim Lavamancer can be purchased for 6 each now. Getting a set for myself. My Legacy collection has grown so much these past 3 weeks. I can almost build Merfolk and Zoo now as well!

[aaronc123]

Originally Posted by Nefarsus

Well I finally got my deck completed this past week! I got to play a few games on Thursday at my LGS. First I played my little brother who just got the Premium Fire and Lightning deck for Christmas. This wasn't a very fair match up so game 1 I kept a hand with a couple lands, 2 forces, 1 goyf, 1 top, and a Swords. Pretty slow game for me, not getting any good draws. Mid game I get CounterTop out. I end up losing a turn before I could have won. Haha. He ended up with good draws. He wins with Fireblast Reverberate, no counters in hand, hilarity ensues. We played several more games. He manages to beat me 3 or 4 out of 12 games. I manage Turn 4 Progenitus twice.

After that went to my LGS. Only 2 of the Legacy players show up. It's insanely packed. 29 people show up to draft. I managed to play one of them between his rounds. He has a Stax deck. I've read very little about other decks, and only know the basic idea of Stax.

Games 1 and 2 were completely rape for me. Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere lock me out. Game 2 I managed to start with Turn 1 and Hierarch, Turn 2 Goyf, Turn 3 Hierarch. He responds with Magus of the Tabernacle and Armageddon. I have no chance to recover. Game 3 I was doing a bit better, but the next draft round was called mid game so we had to stop.

The people watching us told me it was a bad match up for me, but damn that was so scary. My first real match and I was just completely wrecked. I still haven't put together a sideboard. For Stax obviously Krosan Grip would go in, Trygon Predator, Tormod's Crypt seem very useful as well. He was running Crucible/Wasteland. Is that match up just generally an uphill battle? I would like to go in next week with a better chance against that guy.

All in all, it was great to complete my first deck and actually get to use it. I managed to also acquire, 2 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Sword of Body and Mind, and 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor via trades. Going to try the Aggro and Excalibur versions out this week. I traded one of my FTV: Exiled sets for a Jace, and someone else is interested in doing the offer next Thursday. So I may just cave and buy a 3rd Jace to try a different control version out.

On a side note, the burns deck is a LOT better than the Slivers. Has some good Legacy singles in it. I recommend it to anyone, going to pick one up today for myself. My little brother is new to Magic and really enjoyed that deck so much. I've been trying to get him to play Legacy, and we looked into the Legacy Burn deck. He was very opposed to getting into Legacy just because of reading about decks that are capable of turn 1 wins. After looking at the Burn list, he changed his tune and should have all the needed cards by next week. Grim Lavamancer can be purchased for 6 each now. Getting a set for myself. My Legacy collection has grown so much these past 3 weeks. I can almost build Merfolk and Zoo now as well!

Well, it takes a while to get used to playing CToP. Do you have the list of the deck you used?

Again, I'm not a good CToP player, in fact I dislike it a lot and I use the more aggro-based build. Any experienced CToP players have comments for Nefarsus?

At any rate, FYI, that Precon Burn deck isn't as good as the actual Legacy Burn deck. (i actually bought 4 Fire & Lightning decks myself and I am 1 FOIL Lava Spike away from a Foil Legacy Burn deck; as a side note LOL )

Anyways, the Burn Matchup should be managable. With CounterTop Online and a 2-drop, you can just about Counter 50% of their deck, give or take. My Immediate answers MD for burn is War monks, then, Spell Pirece/Snare Hydroblast comes in from the Board. If you are running Natural Order, Empyrial Archangel could be a beast from the board vs. Burn.

Finally, Stax is indeed a difficult matchup. Not impossible, but difficult. Being that you curve out at 4 probably, you need to get Noble Hierarch out really early and counter smokestack and Tanglewire.

[Nefarsus]

Originally Posted by aaronc123

Well, it takes a while to get used to playing CToP. Do you have the list of the deck you used?

I'm currently using this deck:

Deck
Creatures 14 4 Noble Hierarch 4 Tarmogoyf 2 Rhox War Monk 2 Qasali Pridemage 1 Dryad Arbor 1 Progenitus Instants - 19 4 Brainstorm 4 Force of Will 4 Daze 4 Swords to Plowshares 3 Ponder	Sorcery - 3 3 Natural Order Enchantment - 3 3 Counterbalance Artifact - 3 3 Sensei's Divining Top Land - 18 4 Tropical Island 3 Tundra 4 Misty Rainforest 2 Windswept Heath 2 Island 2 Forest 1 Plains

Originally Posted by aaronc123

Finally, Stax is indeed a difficult matchup. Not impossible, but difficult. Being that you curve out at 4 probably, you need to get Noble Hierarch out really early and counter smokestack and Tanglewire.

I never did see a Tanglewire get played, my biggest problems were Chalice and Trinisphere.

So I got to play some more games tonight. Played ANT 4 games. The guy didn't want to tell me what he was playing, even though when I first came in he asked what I had, and I had told him. I ended up going 2-2 against him. Late game Progenitus, and Turn 4 Progenitus ftw. After that I played U/B Merfolk. Got pretty beat there. 1-2. I don't have a sideboard completed yet, so that's going to make a huge difference. But they weren't sideboarding either. Well aside from ANT, who just Burning Wish into SB. I'll do a run down of all the games tonight or tomorrow when I get home.

All in all, it was fun to get some games in and really learning the opposition. ANT looks fun. It was cool watching it go off. Once a week to play Legacy is not enough though. Wish I could play more often. I hear there are a couple tournaments coming up in DC and Jersey. It'd be cool to get in a groove to enter those.

[Kevinliu]

Originally Posted by Nefarsus

I'm currently using this deck:






I never did see a Tanglewire get played, my biggest problems were Chalice and Trinisphere.

So I got to play some more games tonight. Played ANT 4 games. The guy didn't want to tell me what he was playing, even though when I first came in he asked what I had, and I had told him. I ended up going 2-2 against him. Late game Progenitus, and Turn 4 Progenitus ftw. After that I played U/B Merfolk. Got pretty beat there. 1-2. I don't have a sideboard completed yet, so that's going to make a huge difference. But they weren't sideboarding either. Well aside from ANT, who just Burning Wish into SB. I'll do a run down of all the games tonight or tomorrow when I get home.

All in all, it was fun to get some games in and really learning the opposition. ANT looks fun. It was cool watching it go off. Once a week to play Legacy is not enough though. Wish I could play more often. I hear there are a couple tournaments coming up in DC and Jersey. It'd be cool to get in a groove to enter those.

I'd like to ask you some questions Nefarsus. Hopefully you'll be able to benefit from them and I am not trying to criticize you or anything so don't worry.

In those games that you played, did you have to mulligan often?

Also, how did you lose the games against ANT? Couldn't assemble countertop in time or was there something else?

As for the ub merfolk matchup, yeah that matchup can be rather tough with their vials, merfolk lords and standstills if they are running them.

Overall, how do you like your deck? Is there anything you would change concerning the expected matchups for future tournaments and your play preference?

As for a sideboard you could try out something like this:

Sideboard
3 Stoneforge Mystic 2 Umezawa's Jitte 1 Sword of fire and ice 2 Krosan Grip 3 Spell pierce 2 Path to Exile 1 Relic of progenitus 1 Tormod's Crypt

[johnnychr]

How about the goblins matchup? How are the matchups for u?
My meta has lots of them...Is Tivadar's Crusade a solution?

[Kevinliu]

Originally Posted by johnnychr

How about the goblins matchup? How are the matchups for u?
My meta has lots of them...Is Tivadar's Crusade a solution?

Well, if your meta is full of goblins you should play blue elemental/hydroblasts in the board as well as maindecking 3-4 stoneforge mystics with a couple of umezawa's jittes and sword of fire and ice. Stoneforge mystic is just nutty against aggro.

[Badd Business]

I know Rhox War Monk is good vs. Zoo, but am I the only person thinking Knight of the Reliquary is a much better creature vs. everything else?

He's proven himself in the legacy format in multiple decks, and even if you can throw in 1-2 wastelands, it makes him worthwhile. Add to that a dryad arbor & natural order package, and he just seems to make the most sense.

[aaronc123]

Originally Posted by cbus05

I know Rhox War Monk is good vs. Zoo, but am I the only person thinking Knight of the Reliquary is a much better creature vs. everything else?

He's proven himself in the legacy format in multiple decks, and even if you can throw in 1-2 wastelands, it makes him worthwhile. Add to that a dryad arbor & natural order package, and he just seems to make the most sense.

Yeah, I run 3 and 3 in my current build, and 4 wastes

[rcknrll]

hi guys, im new in legacy and im starting to like this deck, but i dont know if it can be a budget, but still doesnt loose the competitiveness of the deck. thanks!

[aaronc123]

Originally Posted by rcknrll

hi guys, im new in legacy and im starting to like this deck, but i dont know if it can be a budget, but still doesnt loose the competitiveness of the deck. thanks!

You can try a budget build if you don't care about DCI ratings etc., incase it doesn't work out to great. The thing is... you need Force ow will to counter stuff on your turn 0. I guess you can just run conventional counterspells and hope you don't get matched against a Belcher/SA/Storm deck, but that is inevitable.

Tarmogoyf is also Hard to replace. Reason is, I have been absolutely mana-screwed before (Plains and Noble Hierarch out only) and was still able to win with an Exalted Goyf.

Card replacement Choices (I guess; untested):
click on spoiler

Spoiler:

budget options:
Tarmogoyf --> Quirion Dryad or Troll Ascetic or Werebear
Force of Will --> substitute Daze for it, then in Daze slots run Spell Pierce or Spell Snare or Counterspell
Noble Hierarch --> Birds or Paradise (you'll muss the exalted though)
Dual Lands --> Shocklands (e.g. Watery Grave; 3 life hurts with a fetch though)
Fetchlands --> can't really rep... Newer Island/plains/Forest Fetches from Zendikar (cheaper)

Rest of the deck should be cheap enough assuming your not runing Jace 2.0 (which there is no reps... maybe Jace 1.0 lol)

May I make a suggestion? I don't know your budget but I would say to try to invest in at least 4x Force of Will... even if you decide to play another deck with blue in it, most blue decks run that card

[JihadJoe]

Is it possible to run this deck to a good end without the counterbalance package?
I day 2'd GP columbus and ended up 74th overall.... I had an aggro bant/control deck with the NO combo in the board.

Ran 2 elspeth 2 jace. in the main and depending on control or aggro match up kept one in over the other brining in half the combo.


From my experience... this deck is explosive and can just go over the top. (i even beat survival vine on day 2)

[aaronc123]

You had CTop in it? Or did you run the straight aggro/control? I don't Like jace or elspeth without CTop package. To me they are too slow in a straight aggro build.

sidenote: How did bringing in NO PRO from the board work? I never liked doing that, b/c they assume you have that main anyways, the experienced players anyhow.

Check out my Pro Excalibur build towards the Primer. It's fun.