That's the thing about the 3CMC section - nothing that exciting, as this is where commons begin to fail. I'm on the fence about Apex Hawks, but I do think that Kabuto Moth is solid. The +2 toughness is insanely important. It's a 2/4 blocker on the defence, and can screw up combat maths for your opponent either way. I'd say it is far from cuttable.
I think Cohort, Hookmaster, and the Gliders are plenty exciting. Splashable dudes that go for the throat. I'm not understanding the hate against Apex Hawks; it's never meant to be amazing, just versatile.
Out of the two Gliders, I think Thermal Glider is better just because there is just so much more burn that it protects from. I'll probably be adding it, but not Nightwind. Edit: Adding it for Dawnglare.
Yeah, I think the versatility of a early game + late game threat is what makes Apex Hawks popular. It's not at all amazing, but it's a nice 18 - 22th inclusion. Cuttable, at the least.
Yeah, it's how many people run each card. I don't think a top X was what anyone had in mind, but it's possibly doable, just not with the way we are currently evaluating these.
Arven's rankings look pretty spot on. Though it's kind of sad, as in blue for instance you're deciding which tier one creatures to play and not even going near the tier two ones. And that's blue creatures.
Opal Champion is not bad. Seriously stop with this browbeat type talk about it. I can concede that Opal Gargoyle isn't exactly threating even if you play it at its best time, and so I removed it, but Opal Guardian is a 3/3 first striker. Do you think your opponent wants you to have that, no of course not, but do they also want you to keep beating them with you turn 1 and turn 2 creatures? Not really. It applies major pressure.
You are really underestimating what the higher versions of the sleepers can do. Your opponent doesn't control anything, they just either take a slightly less beating or take a whole lot more beating. Either way, they have to choose how much of a beating they are going to take, not if they are going to take a beating or not. That is a key point that is being missed.
IMO this creature would absolutely thrash a red deck.
You're talking about this seal of creature as though you are always the beatdown or like your opponent couldn't just use a removal spell on one your early dudes until they could drawn into more removal or until they could play a creature that would trump a 3/3 first striker. I'd rather have a Battle Hurda or Daru Lancer(which really is a beast) most times over the enchantment. 3/3 first strikers are very good and all, but it having suspend for as long as your opponent can afford it makes it bad. Browbeat at least does something the turn you play it; your opponent can't play around it and counter it with a Seal of Primordium or some such effect.
How about when you aren't the beatdown in a particular board state? How about when your opponent has matched your creatures with removal, or bigger dudes, and they are swinging with the team? Are you glad to draw a blank enchantment then?
The creature itself is great--better than Opal Guardian for sure, but the enchantment it starts as sucks, imo.
I have many problems with Opal Guardian, some of which Drahcir has already touched on.
1. Neither Opal creature can ever be played optimally, because they're too "on curve" as creatures. Opal Guardian on T4+ is hardly anything to brag about, and neither is Opal Champion T5+. You speak as if the opponent has to make a choice immediately, but they don't; usually, it'll take at least two or so turns that they can't stall without hurting themselves too badly for it to matter.
2. They only work in a small window of opportunity. Even landing the Champion a turn later than normal makes it infinitely worse.
3. Opal Champion gives you nothing immediately for your mana investment. Wasting all your mana on a turn gives you a blank enchantment, and if they find a way to deal with you, you've effectively negated your own T3 for your opponent.
Maybe it's not as bad as we think it is, since Pauper is inherently creature-centric and a 3/3 first striker is nothing to scoff at, but it's still not cubeworthy.
Are we cool with moving on? Or should we stay and thrash it out a bit more?
I think both sides are misvaluing the card. Most of the time, you're going to get it to a 3/3 within a few turns and it's going to be very good, whether or not you get it down T3. It's hardly terrible in topdeck mode as it'll get to be a 3/3 as soon as being on the defence is relevant, but the one place where it really is pretty damn terrible is when they're at all more aggressive than you. Using 2w at sorcery speed for a creature that can't block the next turn, at the very least, is hard to justify against aggo often.
I think that this undoes however good it may be anywhere else, as it seems like it's rarely brilliant.
Guardian of the Guildpact--There is a reason this is run so often. It's nearly impossible to kill with removal or in combat. It's a little slow when trying to curve out in an aggressive deck, but the insurance that it won't die and it will connect 95% of the time makes it worth it.
Kor Sanctifiers--Stupid, stupid good. Card advantage in white is good, card advantage on a creature is just what the color needed.
Cenn's Enlistment--Looks better than what I originally gave it credit for, but it seems a little slow. I like it a lot more than Raise the Alarm, so that's something at least.
Skyhunter Patrol--Obviously good on offense or defense.
Heavy Ballista--I had it in my initial list, but it never performed. Rattlesnake cards just aren't very good. This reminds me of the Opal cycle, but better because at least this can attack next turn or block the turn you play it.
Coalition Honor Guard--I will say this is probably better than I originally gave it credit for, especially if you are facing down pingers. Still not sure if it's needed as it's a pretty slow/small/evasionless creature for a kind of clunky cost; aggro decks would probably do fine just running a better creature for the slot and control decks should have enough card advantage or answers to protect their own finishers.
Cloud Crusader--Same as Skyhunter Patrol.
Assault Griffin--It's a fine attacker, but the 2 toughness means it dies to tons of removal and can take out very few viable creatures in combat without dying. It's not terrible or anything, so if you feel you need it, feel ok about playing it.
Sanctum Gargoyle--If this is not a blank as often as it should be, you are playing too many artifacts in your cube--that means including bad artifacts.
Join the Ranks--Just bad. The entire reason I give Raise the Alarm any consideration at all is because it's two mana, and Cenn's is a fine choice because of the inevitability it can provide. If this gave a 2/2 and a 1/1, I'd probably be game.
Daru Lancer--Is really solid and I shouldn't be the only one running this. It's the pauper Exalted Angel and will dominate most combat steps when flipped over.
Ballynock Trapper--Overcosted, yet mainly meant for aggro, somehow. I'm sure it can perform admirably if you have a decent start and are playing mostly white spells, but it doesn't do much outside of that.
Mystic Zealot--I don't think this will be worth it when you need it to be most times. Maybe in WU or WB, where you can get counters, draw, and removal in the gy before you play this, but I think I'd prefer something more consistent. Still though, a 3/5 flyer for 4 is pretty mean, so I say you should give it a shot and try to be really honest about its performance.
Yes, but most people who run it run the other four Golems, so we just lump them together into Colorless. Plus, it's a headache to try to place in a CMC.
I'd put them all in their prospective colors and see if they have the stuff to compete for slots, personally. I put my thoughts on the Zealot with the rest of them.
@ Sscchhmueptfter: Razor Golem does not have First Strike. Also, along with Guardian, and Enlistment, I'd pick Sanctifiers over the Golem.
I'm inclined to agree with the Mystic Zealot judgment.
It's annoying, because there are obviously people who are in the "Heavy Ballista is awesome" camp, but aren't here to argue their case.
Let me go find some quotes.
Edit: Huh. Couldn't find any. /shrugs
My curve is screwed with too many white creatures in 4CMC, so I'm going to cut Heavy Ballista when we move onto spells.
I enjoy the ballistica. Equip them and they can really cause some nasty tricks with blocking into tapping or what you can pull when you have a first striker on the board.
Aside from that both skyhunter patrol and cloud crusader can be just insta road blocks to red and black aggro. the toughness of 3 puts them out of range of alot of the burn, but make great equippers. Then if you are in a mirror match against whites flyers or blues flyers they embarrass them.
Daru Lancer is hard for me to get behind, because for 6 mana, or 3 + 4 the next time I expect a flyer, or at least vigilance on this guy.
The trapper I had in mine, only because I had buyback spells.
Guardian of the Guildpact This and sanctifiers are easily the best two. He can win games all on his own. Kor Sanctifiers Great card advantage and a reasonable body, too. Cenn’s Enlistment An odd card, as it's either a curve-topper in aggro that does nothing much unless you're behind, or it's an awkward card in control that eats up land drops. Despite that, it manages to be a pretty solid card. Skyhunter Patrol Not as good as people seem to think. Sure, it's good on defence, but not even as good as the 2/4 flier which isn't on the list at all. Heavy Ballista Dominates some games. Thing is, that's not good enough at 4 cmc for such a small, fragile body. Coalition Honor Guard Good. Blanking a removal spell of theirs long enough to win you the game... wins you the game Cloud Crusader See Skyhunter Assault Griffin Much too fragile to be worth it at all. Sanctum Gargoyle Join the Ranks No. Daru Lancer 7's a lot of mana to pay for anything that doesn't pass the terminate test. I'm iffy on him as he seems really good if he survives but he's hardly white's Garthan Raiders (or even Zombie Cutthroat, probably) Ballynock Trapper Too slow for aggro, too unreliable for control. Probably pretty good for midrange, but that's about it. Mystic Zealot probably not. The fact that it's terrible before threshold really limits its worth.
I realize that I'm being pretty tough in the judgment, but I only run 4 myself and that's been enough.
Dominates some games. Thing is, that's not good enough...
I love cube.
Trapper is ridiculous when you have him in play, but it's the 'getting into play' part that's the problem.
Cenn's Enlistment is ridiculous ridiculous ridiculous. It's good enough on T4, and it's just insane if you even get one Retrace off it. Drawing lands you don't need is suprisingly common in the lategame. Or maybe that's just me. (That sounded snappish and condescending. Sorry if it does.)
Not a lot of choice up in this end. You've got Shu Elite Companions if you have an unblockable itch, but it's not very good.
I'm quite interested in how good/bad Hartebeeste is. Anyone?
I'll post my thoughts later.
Also, now we're winding to the end of the White Creatures section, I'll like everyone's thoughts. This project, useful or no? Should we keep going or do you guys think it'll sink fast?
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Yeah, I think the versatility of a early game + late game threat is what makes Apex Hawks popular. It's not at all amazing, but it's a nice 18 - 22th inclusion. Cuttable, at the least.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
I'll keep Nightwind Glider on the back and wait until we finish white. Then I'll make a decision.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
You are really underestimating what the higher versions of the sleepers can do. Your opponent doesn't control anything, they just either take a slightly less beating or take a whole lot more beating. Either way, they have to choose how much of a beating they are going to take, not if they are going to take a beating or not. That is a key point that is being missed.
IMO this creature would absolutely thrash a red deck.
How about when you aren't the beatdown in a particular board state? How about when your opponent has matched your creatures with removal, or bigger dudes, and they are swinging with the team? Are you glad to draw a blank enchantment then?
The creature itself is great--better than Opal Guardian for sure, but the enchantment it starts as sucks, imo.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
1. Neither Opal creature can ever be played optimally, because they're too "on curve" as creatures. Opal Guardian on T4+ is hardly anything to brag about, and neither is Opal Champion T5+. You speak as if the opponent has to make a choice immediately, but they don't; usually, it'll take at least two or so turns that they can't stall without hurting themselves too badly for it to matter.
2. They only work in a small window of opportunity. Even landing the Champion a turn later than normal makes it infinitely worse.
3. Opal Champion gives you nothing immediately for your mana investment. Wasting all your mana on a turn gives you a blank enchantment, and if they find a way to deal with you, you've effectively negated your own T3 for your opponent.
Maybe it's not as bad as we think it is, since Pauper is inherently creature-centric and a 3/3 first striker is nothing to scoff at, but it's still not cubeworthy.
Are we cool with moving on? Or should we stay and thrash it out a bit more?
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
I think that this undoes however good it may be anywhere else, as it seems like it's rarely brilliant.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
White Creatures 4CMC
6 Guardian of the Guildpact
5 Kor Sanctifiers
5 Cenn’s Enlistment
4 Skyhunter Patrol
3 Heavy Ballista
3 Coalition Honor Guard
3 Cloud Crusader
2 Assault Griffin
1 Sanctum Gargoyle
1 Join the Ranks
1 Daru Lancer
1 Ballynock Trapper
The most interesting section, since there are many options and few spots.
I need to revamp this, I believe. I need to cut Assault Griffin and Join the Ranks.
Thoughts on Mystic Zealot? I want this to be good so badly.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Guardian of the Guildpact--There is a reason this is run so often. It's nearly impossible to kill with removal or in combat. It's a little slow when trying to curve out in an aggressive deck, but the insurance that it won't die and it will connect 95% of the time makes it worth it.
Kor Sanctifiers--Stupid, stupid good. Card advantage in white is good, card advantage on a creature is just what the color needed.
Cenn's Enlistment--Looks better than what I originally gave it credit for, but it seems a little slow. I like it a lot more than Raise the Alarm, so that's something at least.
Skyhunter Patrol--Obviously good on offense or defense.
Heavy Ballista--I had it in my initial list, but it never performed. Rattlesnake cards just aren't very good. This reminds me of the Opal cycle, but better because at least this can attack next turn or block the turn you play it.
Coalition Honor Guard--I will say this is probably better than I originally gave it credit for, especially if you are facing down pingers. Still not sure if it's needed as it's a pretty slow/small/evasionless creature for a kind of clunky cost; aggro decks would probably do fine just running a better creature for the slot and control decks should have enough card advantage or answers to protect their own finishers.
Cloud Crusader--Same as Skyhunter Patrol.
Assault Griffin--It's a fine attacker, but the 2 toughness means it dies to tons of removal and can take out very few viable creatures in combat without dying. It's not terrible or anything, so if you feel you need it, feel ok about playing it.
Sanctum Gargoyle--If this is not a blank as often as it should be, you are playing too many artifacts in your cube--that means including bad artifacts.
Join the Ranks--Just bad. The entire reason I give Raise the Alarm any consideration at all is because it's two mana, and Cenn's is a fine choice because of the inevitability it can provide. If this gave a 2/2 and a 1/1, I'd probably be game.
Daru Lancer--Is really solid and I shouldn't be the only one running this. It's the pauper Exalted Angel and will dominate most combat steps when flipped over.
Ballynock Trapper--Overcosted, yet mainly meant for aggro, somehow. I'm sure it can perform admirably if you have a decent start and are playing mostly white spells, but it doesn't do much outside of that.
Mystic Zealot--I don't think this will be worth it when you need it to be most times. Maybe in WU or WB, where you can get counters, draw, and removal in the gy before you play this, but I think I'd prefer something more consistent. Still though, a 3/5 flyer for 4 is pretty mean, so I say you should give it a shot and try to be really honest about its performance.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Kor Sanctifiers is versatile, card advantage on a stick, and another answer to enchantments. Must I say more?
Cenn's Enlistment is ridiculous. Every bad topdeck turns into critters. For the same reason Oona's Grace is good, this card is insane.
Skyhunter Patrol/Cloud Crusader is just very solid. You may not want to run both, both run at least one.
I think Heavy Ballista is solid, but not as ridiculous as everyone says. It's not completely cuttable, but not staple either.
Coalition Honor Guard is really one of those cards that depends on the rest of the cube. I'll have to try it out; seems solid enough.
Assault Griffin is fragile, but a good beater. It's outclassed by too much for a 2-toughness creature, though.
Sanctum Gargoyle is way too linear.
Join the Ranks is bad without more Allies.
Daru Lancer seems very interesting. I have room to try it out.
Ballynock Trapper is solid as a rock but way too slow. Sad.
And seriously, thoughts on Mystic Zealot?
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
@ Sscchhmueptfter: Razor Golem does not have First Strike. Also, along with Guardian, and Enlistment, I'd pick Sanctifiers over the Golem.
Edit: Think I'll try the flagbearer guy over Knight of Sursi and Cenn's Enlistment over Breath of Life.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
It's annoying, because there are obviously people who are in the "Heavy Ballista is awesome" camp, but aren't here to argue their case.
Let me go find some quotes.
Edit: Huh. Couldn't find any. /shrugs
My curve is screwed with too many white creatures in 4CMC, so I'm going to cut Heavy Ballista when we move onto spells.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Aside from that both skyhunter patrol and cloud crusader can be just insta road blocks to red and black aggro. the toughness of 3 puts them out of range of alot of the burn, but make great equippers. Then if you are in a mirror match against whites flyers or blues flyers they embarrass them.
Daru Lancer is hard for me to get behind, because for 6 mana, or 3 + 4 the next time I expect a flyer, or at least vigilance on this guy.
The trapper I had in mine, only because I had buyback spells.
Guardian of the Guildpact This and sanctifiers are easily the best two. He can win games all on his own.
Kor Sanctifiers Great card advantage and a reasonable body, too.
Cenn’s Enlistment An odd card, as it's either a curve-topper in aggro that does nothing much unless you're behind, or it's an awkward card in control that eats up land drops. Despite that, it manages to be a pretty solid card.
Skyhunter Patrol Not as good as people seem to think. Sure, it's good on defence, but not even as good as the 2/4 flier which isn't on the list at all.
Heavy Ballista Dominates some games. Thing is, that's not good enough at 4 cmc for such a small, fragile body.
Coalition Honor Guard Good. Blanking a removal spell of theirs long enough to win you the game... wins you the game
Cloud Crusader See Skyhunter
Assault Griffin Much too fragile to be worth it at all.
Sanctum Gargoyle
Join the Ranks No.
Daru Lancer 7's a lot of mana to pay for anything that doesn't pass the terminate test. I'm iffy on him as he seems really good if he survives but he's hardly white's Garthan Raiders (or even Zombie Cutthroat, probably)
Ballynock Trapper Too slow for aggro, too unreliable for control. Probably pretty good for midrange, but that's about it.
Mystic Zealot probably not. The fact that it's terrible before threshold really limits its worth.
I realize that I'm being pretty tough in the judgment, but I only run 4 myself and that's been enough.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
I love cube.
Trapper is ridiculous when you have him in play, but it's the 'getting into play' part that's the problem.
Cenn's Enlistment is ridiculous ridiculous ridiculous. It's good enough on T4, and it's just insane if you even get one Retrace off it. Drawing lands you don't need is suprisingly common in the lategame. Or maybe that's just me. (That sounded snappish and condescending. Sorry if it does.)
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
WHITE CREATURES 5+CMC
5 Noble Templar
4 Plover Knights
4 Castle Raptors
3 Razor Golem
2 Totem-Guide Hartebeast
1 Loxodon Mystic
1 Lairwatch Giant
1 Conclave Equenaut
Not a lot of choice up in this end. You've got Shu Elite Companions if you have an unblockable itch, but it's not very good.
I'm quite interested in how good/bad Hartebeeste is. Anyone?
I'll post my thoughts later.
Also, now we're winding to the end of the White Creatures section, I'll like everyone's thoughts. This project, useful or no? Should we keep going or do you guys think it'll sink fast?
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2