LANXAL! Change thread title I'm not actually that much of a spaz, just wanted to get your attention.
Noble Templar Great. The best by quite far as it's relevant early and blocks pretty much everything while also attacking and killing most of the things it blocks. Oh and it's kind of a land. Plover Knights Seems pretty good. The only things I dislike about it is that it can only hit for 3, and that it can only be a fragile finisher. Templar is good early, Castle Raptors Probably worse than Plover Knights as it's normally only 4/4s that the bonus matters against. (And removal, eh Lanxal) Razor Golem Very good in the right deck, good in most white decks but doesn't really belong here. Totem-Guide Hartebeast Very good, extremely underrated. Passes the terminate test (!) and has a relevant (though I'm not going to pretend that it's efficient) body. Can get pretty huge though if you fetch an aura like Empyrial Armour or even Rancor Loxodon Mystic Irrelevant body, irrelevant ability, at least compared to the cost. Nope. Lairwatch Giant Only decent on defence. For 6. Dies to pretty much everything. Nope. Conclave Equenaut I don't know where it would be good, as in control convoke is irrelevant and in aggro you really want to be tapping to smash face as much as possible. I think that Plover Knights seems a ton better.
I only run Hartebeest and Templar myself (oh, and Razor Golem), and that seems like enough for now. I agree that that's pretty light, but white doesn't really need anything higher that 4cmc for aggro dudes and there are only so many I'd even consider running in control. Overall, very lackluster. Also, the only other one which you could run not mentioned so far is Kithkin Spellduster though it's probably just not big enough.
Oh, I'm not running masters commons but Shu Elite Companions looks a very little bit worse than Plover Knights. I'm probably overrating it, but an unblockable guy with decent power looks at least OK.
Welcome Catullo! The format is great, and is awesome and cheap draft practice, like you thought. The cards you mentioned though seem pretty much worse than 3/4s, which aren't even considered in the cube.
Sweet! That's exactly why I love heading these Pauper Cube projects. Go check my sig for the the other Pauper Cube resources. Always good to have another man on the Pauper boat.
Noble Templar--Pretty much irreplaceable. Pretty solid atack, huge butt and never gives your opponent a clear path to attack through. Land cycles as a bonus.
Plover Knights--It's alright. It's in my cube and I'm never all that excited to see it, but it's plenty solid in combat.
Castle Raptors--Much better than I gave it credit for initially, and it will be making my list.
Razor Golem--Huge, somewhat easy to cast, and has vigilance. Will be going in my list.
Totem-Guide Hartebeast--Seems too narrow. In my list, it interacts with 3% of the cube, so you have to draft it and at least one of the very few auras to be any good. If it were enchantment, I'd be all over it.
Loxodon Mystic--Gave it a shot from the get go of my Pauper cube and it has not done anything to date. Meeeeeeeeeeeh.
Lairwatch Giant--See Loxodon Mystic. A control only card I gave a chance, was only ever relevant once.
Conclave Equenaut--It's ok, but since I'm cutting the chaff from this section of my cube, this won't be making it in either.
I think this thread will be immensely helpful, once completed, especially if the influx of new Pauper cubes continues.
Oh, of course, thanks for reminding me Lanxal. Nevertheless, I think that Plover Knights takes the cake as it's less fragile when it's attacking, and both are normally very pathetic if they never do that. I know that's not an entirely watertight argument, but they're so close that running one over the other is always fine.
And yes, this thread is looking to be great. Already there are quite a few changes on the cards for my cube.
I'm glad that Templar's been used in every list, it's been really good. A huge toughness and vigilance is solid and it even has a relevant (soldier) creature type!
I'm not as much a fan of Plover Knights, it's another card that I think is pretty inefficient as first strike isn't very relevant unless it's stopping X/3s (usually ground pounders like Nessian Coursers.) I think that the Raptors' 2 defense is worth much more especially since it's toughness going away when tapped seems not too horrid a catch (unless it's against a red deck.)
Not really a fan of any of these. The aura searcher doesn't have many targets, even though white has a LOT of good auras (mainly based on shutting things down.)
Regarding the earlier discussion on Sanctum Gargoyle, it's a new addition, but I think that in theory, it's solid. Its body is pretty good (4 mana for a 2/3 flier) and its ability has at least the potential to be better than something like first strike on the 2/3 fliers with first strike. Granted, creatures die a LOT more than artifacts, but it should be able to be used well.
Regarding the discussion itself, I'm a fan. I pretty scrutinizingly evaluate cards for my commons cube but this has gotten me to give more of a look to the cards.
I'd like to add that although you do need to draft around it slightly, Hartebeest almost always has plenty of targets, there are only ever two types you want: pump and removal. Anyway, it's been good here.
How do you rate Castle Raptors vs Plover Knights? If you only had space for one, which would it be?
I would probably run Castle Raptors. For a 5 mana flyer, it doesn't really matter if it has first strike or not - it's good for the 4 mana flyers, but at this point you just want to murder them dead. So I'll take the more resilient one, thank you very much.
I'd say Hyena Umbra's easily the best umbra. Gives a decent boost (and first strike's surprisingly relevant) as well as making the creature umbra'ed. There aren't as many ways to punish someone for doing so (like Control Magic effects) but there are still good effects in UW like Pacifism and bounce like Into the Roil (so I'd likely side it out against those decks.)
I'm a fan of it, but yeah, it's definitely no Mana Tithe or Sunlance.
Arven, Mana Tithe and Force Spike are so good that my cube plays Daze too. Unless your opponent is always playing around these cards, you will catch them with their pants down more than enough times.
Mana Tithe is better here than in powered cubes, I'm pretty sure, not beacause the gameplay is heavier on mana (it isn't) but because we're not playing Mana Drain and Force of Will etc. I can't see me cutting it.
These are rather unexciting. I like the umbra more than most people, it seems (it makes any guy relevant, and normally they don't get to 2 for 1 you), but these really are the only cards you'd run in this slot.
I wouldn't touch Niveous Wisps with a ten foot pole. And Smite is pretty bad removal.
I think we can pretty much move on now. I'll give it two or three hours for final thoughts, and then go to the second CMC, where it's going to really heat up.
And yet Repel the Darkness is good? I'm not saying that it's great or anything (and I'd never run Smite) but for a strictly limited fodder card, it seems at least decent. Decent as in deserving of thought, probably not inclusion.
The effect is just somewhat small for the card, and that's not really acceptable in cube. I don't even run Repel the Darkness, but I accept that it's decent because it has a larger effect while still maintaining on-curve quality.
Repel is fine. None too exciting, but I use it more often than not in aggressive decks as an Overrun. It's certainly better than Wisps, but they aren't even in the same slot, so who cares?
AFAIK, Niveous Wisps is much more of a tempo card (like Panic Spellbomb/Goblin Shortcutter/Somnomancer) in fast decks (your 2/2 can't block, attack, you take 4) whereas Repel tends to act more like a Falter effect to end the game. Both have their places and while I'm not currently running wisps, I don't think it's garbage by any means.
Hey, I agree that it is not very good. But it's still a card to think about if you're building with a limited cardpool or whatever. I would put it in plenty of decks, aggro it's a means of forcing damage through and control it's a partial fog that cantrips, and you don't need to tap out for it. Midrange it's probably pretty bad though.
Shelter-- A very versatile card. Can obviously counter target removal spells when they are cast and can even make Pacifism and friends fall off of the targeted creature post enchanting. It's also good to swing through an opponent's defenses and even on the defensive when you want to save what would be a chump blocker for another turn or the swing back.
Pacifism--Not exciting or anything, but it's plenty solid against most creatures.
Journey to Nowhere--Better than Pacifism against creatures with noncombat related activated abilities(level up, Pingers etc). Worse against creatures with etb abilities, should your opponent find a way to deal with Journey.
Disenchant--Solid role filler. Hits 57 targets in my 360 card cube, that's nearly 16%. Very good.
Cho Manno's Blessing--Better than I originally gave it credit for, but the WW is rough. I probably need to find room for it.
Seal of Cleansing--Personally, I like this better than Disenchant. You give up casting at instant speed for casting it asap and keeping your mana open to play dudes or other spells. It's also "counterable" via other similar cards.
Puncturing Light--It has two conditions that have to be met, but there's no guesswork involved past that. The targeted creature will die(disruption and pumps aside, obviously), unlike Pacifism and friends which can give your opponent the time to dig for an answer to your removal.
Soul Parry--Doesn't seem worth it. It's like a Fog with more combat applications, but I don't think cubes should have room for this. Not terrible though.
Renewed Faith--Just not good. This effect isn't worth the mana in either case, imo.
Carom--I like this card, but I don't think it's good enough. I'm sure it can make combat tricky and has lead to blowouts before, but I don't think that will be the case normally. If it were 2 damage, even without the draw, I'd probably call it a staple. Funny how that works, isn't it? The effect is so tempting that I may very well give it a shot.
Judge Unworthy--Too many conditions to be met for me to like this. I'm sure it can be solid, but there are enough better removal spells, that I don't think this is necessary. It is comparable to Puncturing Light; in exchange for less guesswork, you get to scry. I prefer P Light.
Shelter is pretty fantastic as a cantripping counterspell. So many applications it's ridiculous. Pacifism is perhaps the worse of white's removal, but that's not like it's terrible. Solid as hell. Journey to Nowhere is just good as removal. Disenchant is good artifact and enchantment removal. Nothing to see here. Temporal Isolation is better than Pacifism, so I'm not sure why it's not run in every cube. Cho Manno's Blessing is like a permanent Shelter. The WW is annoying, but manageable. Seal of Cleansing is another one if you have the room. Which, most cubes should. Puncturing Light is conditional removal. Annoying conditional removal. Sadly, there's not much else, so it's filler. Soul Parry is a card I've been meaning to try out. I love Safe Passage, and this isn't so far off for a lower cost. Renewed Faith is, just, not good. No. Carom is interesting, but I'd need to test it before deciding anything. Judge Unworthy is going out of my cube. Yeah.
Personally, I think that Disenchant is better, simply because the opponent can play around Seal of Cleansing easier than around Disenchant. But, both are still solid cards.
I think the scry 3 really pushes Judge Unworthy above Puncturing Light. Most of the time, they're killing the same targets, so the Ponder-esque ability is pretty good.
Shelter The better of the two, if only because of the mana cost (though it's probably better anyway). Very versatile, cantrips even if it doesn't do much relevant.
Cho Manno's Blessing Not as good, but still very relevant. Doesn't seem to do a lot, but is an absolute house against monocolour and often X/U or X/G.
Journey and Isolation are both staples, for obvious reasons (flash, and exiling, for a low mana cost and small downsides)
Pacifism: Hardly exciting, but gets rid of a creature from combat for 1w, which is good enough. There aren't too many creatures that do much other than combat, but pingers, tappers and looters cant get touched.
Puncturing Light/Judge Unworthy: Personally, not dealing with fatties (which are rather uncomon, in most games) is not terrible, but having two conditions on either card is rough. Choose which one you like best, but the consistency of Light makes it my choice. Aside: I'd (Edit: almost :P) never target a 4/4 with Judge Unworthy, as in most decks the curve mostly ends at three with CMCs above that being more uncomon than normal)
I rank the three Disenchant>Seal of Cleansing>>Revoke Existence, and I'd run one or two, depending on cube size.
I wouldn't run Carom or Soul Parry, as they're too conditional for too small an effect.
Yeah, that was bad on my part. Obviously, if the creature needs to die, I'd try my luck. Though most of the time it's just going to not work, and that makes it miles worse than anything other than Puncturing Light in that slot.
Maybe dealing with 4 or greater power dudes on the odd occasion would give it the edge over Puncturing Light, but I'd need to test both a bunch to see if it did.
Also another weakness of Judge Unworthy that hasn't been mentioned is that Scrying to put a high(ish) cmc non-land card on the top is not necessarily what you want to do. In control decks, missing a land drop is very rough, and you might not want to draw that Breath of Life at all at this stage of the game, and Wall of Roots may be much more preferable. Not that this makes the scrying a bad thing, as it is almost always good, but scrying three with the additional condition is not nearly as good as scrying three normally.
Noble Templar Great. The best by quite far as it's relevant early and blocks pretty much everything while also attacking and killing most of the things it blocks. Oh and it's kind of a land.
Plover Knights Seems pretty good. The only things I dislike about it is that it can only hit for 3, and that it can only be a fragile finisher. Templar is good early,
Castle Raptors Probably worse than Plover Knights as it's normally only 4/4s that the bonus matters against. (And removal, eh Lanxal)
Razor Golem Very good in the right deck, good in most white decks but doesn't really belong here.
Totem-Guide Hartebeast Very good, extremely underrated. Passes the terminate test (!) and has a relevant (though I'm not going to pretend that it's efficient) body. Can get pretty huge though if you fetch an aura like Empyrial Armour or even Rancor
Loxodon Mystic Irrelevant body, irrelevant ability, at least compared to the cost. Nope.
Lairwatch Giant Only decent on defence. For 6. Dies to pretty much everything. Nope.
Conclave Equenaut I don't know where it would be good, as in control convoke is irrelevant and in aggro you really want to be tapping to smash face as much as possible. I think that Plover Knights seems a ton better.
I only run Hartebeest and Templar myself (oh, and Razor Golem), and that seems like enough for now. I agree that that's pretty light, but white doesn't really need anything higher that 4cmc for aggro dudes and there are only so many I'd even consider running in control. Overall, very lackluster. Also, the only other one which you could run not mentioned so far is Kithkin Spellduster though it's probably just not big enough.
Oh, I'm not running masters commons but Shu Elite Companions looks a very little bit worse than Plover Knights. I'm probably overrating it, but an unblockable guy with decent power looks at least OK.
Welcome Catullo! The format is great, and is awesome and cheap draft practice, like you thought. The cards you mentioned though seem pretty much worse than 3/4s, which aren't even considered in the cube.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Sweet! That's exactly why I love heading these Pauper Cube projects. Go check my sig for the the other Pauper Cube resources. Always good to have another man on the Pauper boat.
What are you talking about?
Castle Raptors Probably worse than Plover Knights as it's normally only 4/4s that the bonus matters against.
Don't forget burn. I always disregard noncombat effects when I evaluate creatures - like with Thermal Glider - but I've grown to not.
@Arven
I think we can still go with CMC. It'll be 0/1, 2, 3, 4+. It shouldn't pose that much of a problem.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Plover Knights--It's alright. It's in my cube and I'm never all that excited to see it, but it's plenty solid in combat.
Castle Raptors--Much better than I gave it credit for initially, and it will be making my list.
Razor Golem--Huge, somewhat easy to cast, and has vigilance. Will be going in my list.
Totem-Guide Hartebeast--Seems too narrow. In my list, it interacts with 3% of the cube, so you have to draft it and at least one of the very few auras to be any good. If it were enchantment, I'd be all over it.
Loxodon Mystic--Gave it a shot from the get go of my Pauper cube and it has not done anything to date. Meeeeeeeeeeeh.
Lairwatch Giant--See Loxodon Mystic. A control only card I gave a chance, was only ever relevant once.
Conclave Equenaut--It's ok, but since I'm cutting the chaff from this section of my cube, this won't be making it in either.
I think this thread will be immensely helpful, once completed, especially if the influx of new Pauper cubes continues.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
And yes, this thread is looking to be great. Already there are quite a few changes on the cards for my cube.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
I'm glad that Templar's been used in every list, it's been really good. A huge toughness and vigilance is solid and it even has a relevant (soldier) creature type!
I'm not as much a fan of Plover Knights, it's another card that I think is pretty inefficient as first strike isn't very relevant unless it's stopping X/3s (usually ground pounders like Nessian Coursers.) I think that the Raptors' 2 defense is worth much more especially since it's toughness going away when tapped seems not too horrid a catch (unless it's against a red deck.)
Not really a fan of any of these. The aura searcher doesn't have many targets, even though white has a LOT of good auras (mainly based on shutting things down.)
Regarding the earlier discussion on Sanctum Gargoyle, it's a new addition, but I think that in theory, it's solid. Its body is pretty good (4 mana for a 2/3 flier) and its ability has at least the potential to be better than something like first strike on the 2/3 fliers with first strike. Granted, creatures die a LOT more than artifacts, but it should be able to be used well.
Regarding the discussion itself, I'm a fan. I pretty scrutinizingly evaluate cards for my commons cube but this has gotten me to give more of a look to the cards.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
I'd like to add that although you do need to draft around it slightly, Hartebeest almost always has plenty of targets, there are only ever two types you want: pump and removal. Anyway, it's been good here.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Edit: Completely missed this:
I would probably run Castle Raptors. For a 5 mana flyer, it doesn't really matter if it has first strike or not - it's good for the 4 mana flyers, but at this point you just want to murder them dead. So I'll take the more resilient one, thank you very much.
WHITE NONCREATURE 0/1CMC
6 Sunlance
5 Hyena Umbra
5 Mana Tithe
Do we even need to discuss this?
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
How has Hyena Umbra been for everyone? Never tried it myself.
Mana Tithe is insane.
If someone gives feedback for Umbra, I think we could be good to move on.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
I'm a fan of it, but yeah, it's definitely no Mana Tithe or Sunlance.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
But that's getting off topic.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
These are rather unexciting. I like the umbra more than most people, it seems (it makes any guy relevant, and normally they don't get to 2 for 1 you), but these really are the only cards you'd run in this slot.
Niveous Wisps and Smite are the only others I can think of.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
I think we can pretty much move on now. I'll give it two or three hours for final thoughts, and then go to the second CMC, where it's going to really heat up.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Draft it on Cubetutor!
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
Draft it on Cubetutor!
6 Shelter
6 Pacifism
6 Journey to Nowhere
6 Disenchant
5 Temporal Isolation
4 Cho Manno's Blessing
3 Seal of Cleansing
2 Puncturing Light
1 Soul Parry
1 Renewed Faith
1 Carom
1 Judge Unworthy
My thoughts later.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Shelter-- A very versatile card. Can obviously counter target removal spells when they are cast and can even make Pacifism and friends fall off of the targeted creature post enchanting. It's also good to swing through an opponent's defenses and even on the defensive when you want to save what would be a chump blocker for another turn or the swing back.
Pacifism--Not exciting or anything, but it's plenty solid against most creatures.
Journey to Nowhere--Better than Pacifism against creatures with noncombat related activated abilities(level up, Pingers etc). Worse against creatures with etb abilities, should your opponent find a way to deal with Journey.
Disenchant--Solid role filler. Hits 57 targets in my 360 card cube, that's nearly 16%. Very good.
Temporal Isolation--Better than Pacifism, which is a good place to be.
Cho Manno's Blessing--Better than I originally gave it credit for, but the WW is rough. I probably need to find room for it.
Seal of Cleansing--Personally, I like this better than Disenchant. You give up casting at instant speed for casting it asap and keeping your mana open to play dudes or other spells. It's also "counterable" via other similar cards.
Puncturing Light--It has two conditions that have to be met, but there's no guesswork involved past that. The targeted creature will die(disruption and pumps aside, obviously), unlike Pacifism and friends which can give your opponent the time to dig for an answer to your removal.
Soul Parry--Doesn't seem worth it. It's like a Fog with more combat applications, but I don't think cubes should have room for this. Not terrible though.
Renewed Faith--Just not good. This effect isn't worth the mana in either case, imo.
Carom--I like this card, but I don't think it's good enough. I'm sure it can make combat tricky and has lead to blowouts before, but I don't think that will be the case normally. If it were 2 damage, even without the draw, I'd probably call it a staple. Funny how that works, isn't it? The effect is so tempting that I may very well give it a shot.
Judge Unworthy--Too many conditions to be met for me to like this. I'm sure it can be solid, but there are enough better removal spells, that I don't think this is necessary. It is comparable to Puncturing Light; in exchange for less guesswork, you get to scry. I prefer P Light.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Pacifism is perhaps the worse of white's removal, but that's not like it's terrible. Solid as hell.
Journey to Nowhere is just good as removal.
Disenchant is good artifact and enchantment removal. Nothing to see here.
Temporal Isolation is better than Pacifism, so I'm not sure why it's not run in every cube.
Cho Manno's Blessing is like a permanent Shelter. The WW is annoying, but manageable.
Seal of Cleansing is another one if you have the room. Which, most cubes should.
Puncturing Light is conditional removal. Annoying conditional removal. Sadly, there's not much else, so it's filler.
Soul Parry is a card I've been meaning to try out. I love Safe Passage, and this isn't so far off for a lower cost.
Renewed Faith is, just, not good. No.
Carom is interesting, but I'd need to test it before deciding anything.
Judge Unworthy is going out of my cube. Yeah.
Disenchant vs. Seal of Cleansing
Personally, I think that Disenchant is better, simply because the opponent can play around Seal of Cleansing easier than around Disenchant. But, both are still solid cards.
Puncturing Light vs. Judge Unworthy
I think the scry 3 really pushes Judge Unworthy above Puncturing Light. Most of the time, they're killing the same targets, so the Ponder-esque ability is pretty good.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Cho Manno's Blessing Not as good, but still very relevant. Doesn't seem to do a lot, but is an absolute house against monocolour and often X/U or X/G.
Pacifism: Hardly exciting, but gets rid of a creature from combat for 1w, which is good enough. There aren't too many creatures that do much other than combat, but pingers, tappers and looters cant get touched.
Puncturing Light/Judge Unworthy: Personally, not dealing with fatties (which are rather uncomon, in most games) is not terrible, but having two conditions on either card is rough. Choose which one you like best, but the consistency of Light makes it my choice. Aside: I'd (Edit: almost :P) never target a 4/4 with Judge Unworthy, as in most decks the curve mostly ends at three with CMCs above that being more uncomon than normal)
I wouldn't run Carom or Soul Parry, as they're too conditional for too small an effect.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Maybe dealing with 4 or greater power dudes on the odd occasion would give it the edge over Puncturing Light, but I'd need to test both a bunch to see if it did.
Also another weakness of Judge Unworthy that hasn't been mentioned is that Scrying to put a high(ish) cmc non-land card on the top is not necessarily what you want to do. In control decks, missing a land drop is very rough, and you might not want to draw that Breath of Life at all at this stage of the game, and Wall of Roots may be much more preferable. Not that this makes the scrying a bad thing, as it is almost always good, but scrying three with the additional condition is not nearly as good as scrying three normally.
Draft it on Cubetutor!