Of course it won't, but there are very few cards that aren't instant speed removal that Turn Aside deals with, and there are quite a few cards that Dispel deals with that Turn Aside can't, (counters especially, burn to the face, instant speed ramp, draw spells, Dark Ritual, pump, Shelter). I can probably work out numbers, but there are many more targets for Dispel and they are probably, on average, better and more likely to be countered by such a conditional counter.
Ah - I misunderstood you before; excellent points. I think I will test with Turn Aside a bit more, but perhaps it should ultimately be taken out of my cube or replaced with Dispel instead (or possibly even Daze if I get my hands on one). I've already got a bunch of ideas from this thread and other people's pauper cube lists so I'm going to be making a big overhaul of my own cube soon.
Ah - I misunderstood you before; excellent points. I think I will test with Turn Aside a bit more, but perhaps it should ultimately be taken out of my cube or replaced with Dispel instead (or possibly even Daze if I get my hands on one). I've already got a bunch of ideas from this thread and other people's pauper cube lists so I'm going to be making a big overhaul of my own cube soon.
Oh, if you haven't got access to all of the good counterspells, then what I said pretty much goes out the window. You're not running Daze, Arcane Denial or Exclude (which is the best in the entire cube, IMO, but I think I'm alone in that view), so you're going to have to run something that isn't quite up to that level.
Really quickly, this is how I would rate the counterspells, if it helps
And that's when things get shaky. That was real quick, so I've probably missed quite a few and the ones in the middle are rather shaky, but you get the general idea. Feel free to disagree, of course, but there may be a few cards you may have overlooked in there.
6 Narcolepsy Pretty much a Pacifism in Blue, but maybe better. Blue is tight, yes, but it really likes these kinds of cards.
6 Memory Lapse Great tempo counter, I wouldn't think about cutting it. Wastes their mana and negates a draw, I really like it.
6 Mana Leak One of the best counterspells, period. Run it.
5 Think Twice I should probably be running this over Inspiration. Definitely.
5 Miscalculation Good, but not Mana Leak good. The times that they have 3 up seems more often than the times that Mana Leak is useless, but honestly anything near as good as Leak is still a staple.
5 Into the Roil A four mana spell, really, but a very good one. A catchall that gives tempo and doesn't cost a card.
5 Impulse Good library manipulation. Really, run it.
3 Withdraw This card has been stellar here. It's great early when you can bounce two dudes for the small cost of UU, but lategame it's still useful to bounce one of their guys and return a 187 creature you control, it happens surprisingly often. Also can be used to save one of your guys and gain tempo at the same time.
3 See Beyond Far and away worse than Lat-Nam's Legacy, and there's not much point running both.
2 Treasure Hunt a decent draw spell, but different people have very different views on it. I don't think it's worth it.
2 Snap Not worth the card, in my opinion.
2 Remove Soul I think that it's worth one spot. Not amazing, but not bad and it's almost always going to have a target.
2 Essence Scatter
1 Train of Thought Really expensive for mass draw, and casting it for 4 is lacklustre. I don't like it.
1 Spreading Seas Sometimes a blowout. One draft there were three people playing 3 colours, this just wins games. Still, damn inconsistent.
1 Lat-Nam's Legacy A really interesting card, it seems like it really could give quite a lot of virtual card advantage for 1u, without having to tap mana during your main phase. Thoughts?
1 Ice Cage Given the number of pingers and tappers, I don't think it's worth it.
1 Deprive Costing a land makes it worse than the competition. Alexi's Cloak Much worse than Cho-Manno's Blessing, much too narrow in my opinion. Confound I'm really not sure, seems better than Alexis Cloak and possibly worth it as a limited Shelter. Thoughts?
Haha I did notice the counterspell, thought I'll add it in at the end, then totally forgot. Totally missed Arcane Denial though
Counterspell In case you don't know anything about magic, hard counters for two are broken in half. Arcane Denial Is a great card. It's decent simply for the fact that you can counter one of your own spells to draw three cards, but really splashable blue counterspells are great, especially with so many blue tempo cards. It's actually deceptively good in control, too, as it helps you lock them out of the game by building up your metaphorical fortress and the two cards they get don't do too much to stop this. I know it seems like a terrible cost to pay, but it really is very good. Courier's Capsule: Is lacklustre blue draw. Inspiration and Divination are similar in power level, so if it's necessary, run it, but it's hardly amazing.
Narcolepsy--It's blue removal and it's pretty solid at that. Just don't do what I've done and swing directly into the enchanted creature before the opponent's next upkeep. Mental lapse.
Memory Lapse--A great tempo counter that answers any spell, no questions asked. The fact that they will draw the card again is totally set off by the fact that you only had to keep 1U up to answer anything they played.
Mana Leak--Possibly my favorite Pauper legal counterspell. It's splashable and good at pretty much any stage in the game. Even late in the game when the opponent can afford to pay 3 after a spell, you wait and catch them when they try to play 2 spells in a turn.
Counterspell--It's simple and efficient. That's all I can say for it.
Think Twice--Not the most exciting card, but it's card advantage at instant speed, at common rarity, and for relatively little mana investment.
Miscalculation--Even with Cycling, I prefer this much less than Mana Leak, but it's still good long into the game as a counter and if you are so behind that you don't need a counter, it cycles to help dig for that out. This should be in every list.
Into the Roil--It's versatile and can attain card parity. It's usually used at 4 mana, but being able to cast it for 2 in a pinch is nice.
Impulse--Digging 4 cards at instant speed is huge and is pretty much the closest thing we have to a tutor. If you didn't find what you were looking for, counting your next draw step, you dug 5 cards deep. On turn 2 that is 15.6% of your deck and that's huge--it only gets better the later the game goes.
Arcane Denial--My second favorite counter in the cube and is unbelievably good. Sure, it's card disadvantage, but being able to counter anything--literally anything for 2 splashable mana and know that spell is gone(unlike Memory Lapse) is amazing. It's definitely one of those cards you have to play with to understand how good it is and so everyone should as soon as possible. I didn't use to be a believer.
Withdraw--This card is the nuts. It's such a huge tempo swing for such a small cost. Also, like Rubin8or said, it's still very good if used on an etb creature of your own and something of the opponent's. You will be able to double bounce opposing creatures more games than you won't with this and that's a good place to be in.
See Beyond--Just bad. 2 mana, sorcery speed, 0 net card advantage. Imagine being low on cards, or god forbid, topdecking and then you draw this while trying to dig for an out...I'd rather run Divination over this because the extra card will probably save you a lot more times than skimming on 1 mana will probably get you.
Treasure Hunt--So bad. Sure, sometimes you'll rip 6 cards with this badboy, but then others it'll just cycle...at sorcery speed. There are certainly worse cards you could run, but it's just not worth the slot.
Snap--Don't like it. Being free does not make this worth a card.
Remove Soul--Not exciting, but it's a solid role filler and it will always have a target. It's obviously worse than ever other viable 1U counterspell, but still good enough to run.
Spreading Seas--There will be times that this is very good, but those won't outweight the number of times it is weak. U is too tight for cards like this.
Lat-Nam's Legacy--Better than See Beyond and worse than every other Pauper viable card draw. Virtual card advantage is ok with Brainstorm and a shuffle effect because it's 1 mana and draws 3 cards...I'll continue to pass on this.
Ice Cage--This card seems more awkward than it really is. Sure, there are pingers and tappers in Pauper limited, but there is something to be said for the fact that it not only stops attackers and blockers, but it stops those very same pingers and tappers. Most of the effects that would target the enchanted creature would render it useless anyway, but obviously exceptions apply. I have been surprisingly fine with this card.
Deprive--We don't need so many hard counters that this should be used. It's hard to describe to some people just how bad this card can be and usually is. Daze is fine because it is free. This not only requires you to keep UU up for whatever your opponent plays, but you better hope you aren't already on the fences, because skipping a land drop won't help that situation.
Courier's Capsule--I like it better than See Beyond, Treasure Hunt, Train of Thought, and probably Lat-Nam's Legacy. That said, I don't really like it enough that I could cut anything that's not already getting cut.
Alexi's Cloak--It's ok, but U just has so many better options. A G version of this at common could very well make the cut(ok, maybe not).
Confound--This is the card Turn Aside wishes it was. It not only protects your own creatures, but can be used to negate opposing pump spells including Armadillo Claok and the like. Definitely a card to keep your eye on and I may try it out in the future.
Narcolepsy is removal for blue. Seriously. Memory Lapse is a great tempo card. There's not really anything else to say. Mana Leak is tied 1st place for best counterspell with Counterspell. And that's a great place to be. Counterspell is... well, I just said it, so tilt your head up a bit. Think Twice is deceptively good. 5 mana for 2 cards isn't the best thing, but throw in instant speed and cut up the spell into two and suddenly it's very, very solid. Miscalculation is good, but not as good as the other counters. Flexibility saves it, but even so, the times it does what it's mean to a counters a spell are much fewer than Mana Leak. Into the Roil is just good. Cantrippin' bounce will do that to you. Impulse is just, ridiculous. 4 cards deep in not bad at all. Arcane Denial is good, but requires skill and courage to play with. I've drafted this twice and played about 20 games with it in my deck. Only about half the time do I have the balls to play it. Withdraw is awesome good. Ridiculously versatile and even at it's worst, it's still good. See Beyond is pretty bad. I'll be cutting it soon. Treasure Hunt is ditto. Snap is ditto. Remove Soul is good for the same reason Exclude is the best counterspell (opinions may vary). Not the best, but still solid as a rock. Essence Scatter is the same. Train of Thought is very expensive. Probably will cut it soon. Spreading Seas is pretty bad. Lat-Nam's Legacy is interesting, but ultimately I don't think it'll cut the mustard. Ice Cage is no Narcolepsy. It's too unreliable to be worth it. It's not terrible, but definitely under the line of cubeable. Deprive is pretty weak for a counterspell. There are a lot of better ones out there. Courier's Capsule
The bounce: Into the Roil can replace itself, so clearly a winner. Withdraw can also give random blowouts and will make your opponents in games 2 and 3 afraid to tap down everything at any point in the game. Snap - interesting effect and I like Cloud of Faeries for the untap, but I think playing a creature on your turn and having mana free for countering on there turn is better than bouncing and doing the same. Maybe if this card cycled too it would be worth it.
The draw: Think Twice amazing versatility drawing at instant speed. Early it lets you keep mana open for a counter threat (real or perceived) and then still be able to do something with that mana if your opponent didn't play anything, late it is like a Mysteries of the Deep. Also gives you value even if you have to pitch it to something like Liliana's Specter. Impulse - wow, that's some digging. Needs to get one for my cube. See Beyond is better than I think people are giving it credit for, and better than Lat-Nam's Legacy IMHO. See Beyond early can help you get lands if you're short and play them that turn instead of waiting until next turn. If I need an answer late game, I'd much rather rip the See Beyond as well as it digs for an answer right then and there instead of waiting until next upkeep. Lat-Nam's Legacy is also a dead card if drawn as a top-deck, since you need another card to pitch in order to draw the two. I think Lat-Nam's Legacy might be better for counter heavy builds that don't want to tap out on their turn, but I prefer See Beyond overall. Courier's Capsule is okay - not a card you're ever excited about, but solid filler when putting a draft deck together. Treasure Hunt may not be amazing compared to the other cards here, but has the potential for some pretty hilarious draws - which I think is part of what cube construction should be about! Train of Thought is neat, but I think is trumped by all the draw listed above.
The "removal": Narcolepsy is great. The only thing it doesn't really shut down is pingers. I've never been a big fan of Ice Cage. If you want an effect like this, Sleeping Potion might be better, since it at least taps the creature as well in case they have some way to target and get rid of it.
Other: Spreading Seas had it's moments in Standard, but not really powerful in cube. Too many better cards that could take its place, as Drahcir has already noted. Eel Umbra wasn't on anyone's lists, but the flash makes it a nice trick worth considering: you can use it to kill an opponent's creature (that blocked or was blocked), save your creature from death (totem armor - potentially twice!) or sneak in some extra damage. There's a lot of ways you can get two for ones with this card - I hear blue likes cards like this.
On Ice Cage vs Sleeping potion: I don't think that always tapping the creature is worth the fact that it can play activated abilities. Granted, there aren't that many activated abilities without a t, but things like Wall of Roots and Benevolent Bodyguard make it at best, better, while how much worse it is at its worse is probably rather irrelevant anyway, as it's pretty much a dead card either way.
I definitely like Legacy a lot more than See Beyond, but maybe there's just more instant speed control here. Instant speed is really a pretty large bonus on a 2cmc spell.
Rushing River I personally prefer Undo and Withdraw to this, but I recognize that this goes after non-creature permanents as well. Generally speaking though, I feel like in a pauper cube the permanents you really have to be worried about are creatures (since the enchantments and artifacts generally are in support of creatures), so I feel like this should only be included after Undo and Withdraw if one feels the cube needs additional bounce.
Frantic Search I think this is pretty amazing in the early game and good in the mid-game. If you've got this card in your deck, you've got to play smart and hold cards back so its not a dead draw if you rip it late.
Compulsive Research Good in all stages of the game - digs deeper that Divination for the same cost and potentially nets you the same number of total cards.
Repulse Cantripping bounce seems good. Perhaps I should be running this too.
Oona's Grace Being able to cycle any land for 2U is pretty good.
Exclude Cantripping creature counter also seems good.
Capsize I think this card is amazing. This card can be such a beating late game lock down when you can buy it back and do it every turn. It's insane in my friend's powered cube - I haven't seen it in action in my pauper cube yet. It also effectively prevents your opponent from using creature enchantments and equipment late game.
Rethink I think Convolute is a better card than this. Most cards in cube cost four or less, so generally the X in Rethink will be less than or equal to 4. Even when needing to counter a spell of CMC 5 or 6, the chances that the opponent will have 4 or more untapped lands untapped are slim. Rethink is bad late game as you simply can't stop spells with CMC of 1, 2 or possibly even 3.
False Demise this card just doesn't feel blue to me. I think it'd be good in a re-animator type deck and with creatures that enter the battlefield. Still - it feels like this card should be black.
Divination staple card drawing. Not exciting, but not bad either.
Aether Tradewinds Some interesting tricks are possible with this card - it kind of needs to be built around though and needs some other cards to support it.
Number Crunch I don't play Un cards, but this one seems way too easy to keep getting back.
Quick side question that is sort of on topic since we're talking about blue, non-creature spells: does anyone know of a blue common "Control Magic"-type spell at the common slot? I haven't been able to find any.
6 Rushing River My favourite bounce spell here, it's obviously a good card. Beats out undo by far, in my opinion, because of the instant speed and ability to bounce non-creatures too.
6 Frantic Search Simply great card, card quality for no mana.
5 Undo I'm not currently running this. There's probabaly something worse in my blue noncreature section, so it's quite likely it'll come in. However, double blue and sorcery speed both hurt it a whole lot.
5 Compulsive Research Really good. You should be running it.
4 Repulse Good card, complements Into the Roil and Repeal as the staple bounce-draw cards. I like it probably less than Repeal but more than Into the Roil, because having three up really isn't an issue at most stages of the game. 4 Oona’s Grace How has this been playing for people? It seems to me that the decks that could potentially abuse it most would be the decks that it's worst in, as these decks need a rather large amount of land. Still unsure, though.
4 Exclude Why isn't this a 6? This is my favourite counterspell in the cube, and, in my opinion, justifiably so as it is blue, splashable, card advantage and countermagic. Four of the best traits of cards in the cube, right there.
4 Capsize I won't first pick anything over capsize. Nothing. Not Faith's Fetters, not Pestilence, not Guardian of the Guildpact, not Rolling Thunder, not Crypt Rats, nor Rancor or Sprout Swarm, not Vulshok Morningstar. Well, that's not exactly true because drafting often involves not picking the best card P1P1.
2 Rethink Convolute is better. And bad.
2 False Demise Interesting, but it seems rather narrow. It can save a creature of yours or, along with removal, Mind Control one of their dudes. However, esoecially with only rather small creatures running around, it seems rather bad.
2 Divination My cube, luckily, doesn't need it. So average.
2 Æther Tradewinds Decent sometimes. Worse than a 3cmc boomerang most times, however, so I'm not running it.
1 Number Crunch Good if you run un, but seems really freakin annoying.
1 ConvoluteOvercosted countermagic, even Cancel is arguably better.
Rushing River is a card I think is kind of overrated. I, at least, don't think it's all that. I don't know. I'm running it, but I don't consider it super badass or anything. Frantic Search is hot. Seriously. Undo is pretty good. Two-for-ones are like that. Compulsive Research is amazing. Seriously. Repulse is the classic formula: bounce + cantrip = good. Oona’s Grace is a great engine. It cycles through your deck like a madman in the late game, and it's not a bad discard target, which there are quite a lot of in blue. Exclude is the best counterspell in Pauper, hands down. Capsize is insane. I've drafted it twice in the past two weeks and both times it's just ridiculous. Sometimes I refrain from using it, since I don't like making the game unfun for my opponents, but seriously, it's amazing. Rethink is great to blow out your opponent when they play an X spell. But then again, so is pretty much every other counter, including Cancel (since by the time they're confident enough to play an X spell to your face, you probably have UU). Really, just a bad counterspell. False Demise is bad. I need to cut it. Divination is not exciting, but a good role-filler. Æther Tradewinds is a spot-filler. Nothing great, but if it works, it works. Number Crunch is hilarious. I love Un cards, but I agree, this may be more annoying that Carnivorous Death-Parrot. Convolute is just a bad counterspell. There are way too many better other cards to consider this.
@Goblin Pile Driver
Well, there's Ray of Command. That's the closest you'll get.
@ Undo: Strictly speaking, it's not a 2 for 1 at all, but a 1 for 0. What it is, however, is a tempo blowout. I'll add it in again.
Yeah, Ray of Command, Shade's Form, False Demise and Act of Treason are all of the things that can make you control their stuff. It's funny, all of those cards are at least borderline cube cards. And Ray of Command is damn awesome.
I'm not sure I understand; how is Undo a 1 for 0? Does that mean Divination is a 1 for 0? Are you perhaps talking about the temporary nature of bounce? Not to sound condescending, since tone is so hard to convey online; I'm actually curious. I'm not defending Undo or anything, but I can't seem so see how it's a 1 for 0. /shrugs
Strictly speaking in card advantage terms, bounce doesn't cost them a card, as nothing is going to their graveyard (or exile or library) from either their hand or their library. What it does cost them is mana, and temporary board presence. If you wanted to be even more defined about it, you could only look at the number of cards in hand, and Undo would be a 3 for 0 (you get -1 cards, they get +2) but that's clearly a very stupid system (and under it all creatures and creature removal spells are 1 for 0s)
Divination makes the number of cards in play and in your hand go up two, for one card (it goes to the graveyard, obviously), so is a two for one. Undo does not get rid of any card long term, so is a 1 for 0. Card advantage terms are pretty stupid, though. Lightning Bolt aimed at the face doesn't give you card advantage, that doesn't mean it isn't better than Sift.
I'm not sure I understand; how is Undo a 1 for 0? Does that mean Divination is a 1 for 0? Are you perhaps talking about the temporary nature of bounce? Not to sound condescending, since tone is so hard to convey online; I'm actually curious. I'm not defending Undo or anything, but I can't seem so see how it's a 1 for 0. /shrugs
Example:
Opponent:
-3 cards in hand
-4 lands in play
-2 creatures in play
Opponent's total card resources = 3+4+2. (obviously, the stuff in play tends to weight heavier than stuff in the hand due to tempo, but strictly on card advantage lines, they have 9 cards.
Scenario 1:
I cast Terminate
I lose the spell from my hand (-1 card resources), and they lose the creature on the board (-1 card resources), for a grand total of -1 vs. -1 or a 1-for-1 trade.
Scenario 2:
I cast Wrath of God
I lose the spell from my hand (-1 card resources), and they both creatures on the board (-2 card resources), for a grand total of -2 vs. -1 or a 2-for-1 trade in your favor.
Scenario 3:
I cast Undo
I lose the spell from my hand (-1 card resources), and they lose two creatures on the board (-2 card resources), but they get 2 more cards in hand (+2 card resources) for a grand total of -0 vs. -1 or a 0-for-1 trade.
Consider that you Undo your opponent's Savannah Lions and Elite Vanguard when they are playing aggro. They just play them again the next turn. All undo did was delay those creatures attacking - it gains you time (we call this tempo).
Ooh, now I get you. What you meant is a 0 for 1. You confused me by suddenly switching the order of the numbers in the same sentence.
@TakeABow
I'm not a total idiot. I understand card advantage and tempo; I have played MTG regularly for 2 years now. Rubin8r just confused me when he said 1 for 0 instead of 0 for 1.
And that example is really an extreme one. Yes, against blindingly fast aggro decks, Undo isn't that great. Neither is Capsize (which is actually worse in this situation) or most of the other blue noncreatures. There's no need to pull out such a wildly biased example like that.
Hope I didn't sound antagonistic or anything. I just read your reply as condescending. And really, there's no argument here, just some slight confusion, so I hope this doesn't erupt into a fight.
Sorry about the order. As I said though, card advantage terms are stupid, there's MUCH more to cards than how many cards they put you up.
No, no fight fight. Just undo gives you no real card advantage and is only good in games where tempo matter (which is pretty much every game, and true for every tempo card. This doesn't make it a bad card.)
I'm sure Take a Bow was only trying to clear things up. He's not a pauper cuber (?) so probably hasn't seen you around a lot and has no idea how new you are to the game, and I really don't think that it's condescending at all. Afterall, Undo is bad against very fast aggro, which really makes a dent against a tempo card (tempo is the main thing that beats aggro, afterall, because aggro wins the games which don't leave the early game).
I think we all agree that Undo isn't spectacular, but it's solid as a tempo card.
It wasn't that last thing that made me think he was being slightly condescending. It was him acting like I didn't know what card advantage was at all. And the line, "we call it tempo", it was just a bit on my nerves. But maybe he's just trying to help, but my first reaction was that he was treating me like a complete newbie at magic.
Foresee is excellent. For serious. Deep Analysis draws you four cards for six mana. Do I even need to say more? Choking Tethers isn't the best card, but it does what it's meant to well most of the time. On its way to the chopping block. Ray of Command is one of a kind for Pauper. I should try it out sometime. Mystic Restraints is close. I mean, 4 mana removal isn't uncommon (mind the pun) to Pauper. And blue likes removal, even if it's a tad bit expensive. But I think it's just not good enough; close, but close isn't acceptable. Inspiration is kind of solid, I guess. I mean, pretty much everyone plays with Think Twice anyway. But it's kind of unnecessary next to Foresee and Deep Analysis. Flight of Fancy is just unnecessary.
Foresee A very good card. Digging four and potentially even more (albeit blindly) cards down is great for 3u. Versatile and good. Deep Analysis The best here, IMHO. It's pretty much a 3U draw three cards spell, but one of those cards is guaranteed to be a slightly worse Night's Whisper. Run it. Choking Tethers I'm not sure as I haven't run it at all yet, but both abilities seem overcosted and the fact that they are so similar means that there is rather limited utility in it. Ray of Command This is a surprisingly good card. At the worst it's a 4 mana Threaten , but oftentimes you use it on their creatures after they've attacked you, and it's really easy to kill a creature and fog another, with 2 for 1s happening rather often as well. Great card. Mystic Restraints Removal for 4 is too much. Yes, I realise that the best removal spell in the cube costs 4, but it can be used on almost anything and the life gained is very relevant. Inspiration I like the card, but it was always really a filler. A bread and butter effect, but is pretty much outclassed by the sorceries, sadly. Flight of Fancy Really a bad card. Draw that dies to removal is very shaky, add to the mix that it's not even efficient and also conditional, and you have a bad card.
Ah - I misunderstood you before; excellent points. I think I will test with Turn Aside a bit more, but perhaps it should ultimately be taken out of my cube or replaced with Dispel instead (or possibly even Daze if I get my hands on one). I've already got a bunch of ideas from this thread and other people's pauper cube lists so I'm going to be making a big overhaul of my own cube soon.
Sig courtesy of Disappointing Signet Inc.
My Cubes:
Goblin Pile Shuffler's 360 Card Pauper Cube - updated 1/4/2014
Goblin Pile Shuffler's 270 Card One-Drop Cube - updated 1/4/2014
Oh, if you haven't got access to all of the good counterspells, then what I said pretty much goes out the window. You're not running Daze, Arcane Denial or Exclude (which is the best in the entire cube, IMO, but I think I'm alone in that view), so you're going to have to run something that isn't quite up to that level.
Really quickly, this is how I would rate the counterspells, if it helps
Exclude>Counterspell=Mana Leak>>Condescend>>>Force Spike>Arcane Denial>>Miscalculation>Daze>Memory Lapse>>Power Sink>Remove Soul>Negate>Confound>Dispel
And that's when things get shaky. That was real quick, so I've probably missed quite a few and the ones in the middle are rather shaky, but you get the general idea. Feel free to disagree, of course, but there may be a few cards you may have overlooked in there.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
I think we're good to move on soon. I'll get it set up.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
BLUE NONCREATURES 2CMC
6 Narcolepsy
6 Memory Lapse
6 Mana Leak
6 Counterspell
5 Think Twice
5 Miscalculation
5 Into the Roil
5 Impulse
4 Arcane Denial
3 Withdraw
3 See Beyond
2 Treasure Hunt
2 Snap
2 Remove Soul
2 Essence Scatter
1 Train of Thought
1 Spreading Seas
1 Lat-Nam's Legacy
1 Ice Cage
1 Deprive
1 Courier's Capsule
This is the section I know I'm going to cut most of my cards from.
Other cards of note includes Alexi's Cloak and Confound.
In other news, I'm cutting Tidewater Minion for Helium Squirter. Tis was a sweet dream, but now it's over. D:
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
6 Memory Lapse Great tempo counter, I wouldn't think about cutting it. Wastes their mana and negates a draw, I really like it.
6 Mana Leak One of the best counterspells, period. Run it.
5 Think Twice I should probably be running this over Inspiration. Definitely.
5 Miscalculation Good, but not Mana Leak good. The times that they have 3 up seems more often than the times that Mana Leak is useless, but honestly anything near as good as Leak is still a staple.
5 Into the Roil A four mana spell, really, but a very good one. A catchall that gives tempo and doesn't cost a card.
5 Impulse Good library manipulation. Really, run it.
3 Withdraw This card has been stellar here. It's great early when you can bounce two dudes for the small cost of UU, but lategame it's still useful to bounce one of their guys and return a 187 creature you control, it happens surprisingly often. Also can be used to save one of your guys and gain tempo at the same time.
3 See Beyond Far and away worse than Lat-Nam's Legacy, and there's not much point running both.
2 Treasure Hunt a decent draw spell, but different people have very different views on it. I don't think it's worth it.
2 Snap Not worth the card, in my opinion.
2 Remove Soul I think that it's worth one spot. Not amazing, but not bad and it's almost always going to have a target.
2 Essence Scatter
1 Train of Thought Really expensive for mass draw, and casting it for 4 is lacklustre. I don't like it.
1 Spreading Seas Sometimes a blowout. One draft there were three people playing 3 colours, this just wins games. Still, damn inconsistent.
1 Lat-Nam's Legacy A really interesting card, it seems like it really could give quite a lot of virtual card advantage for 1u, without having to tap mana during your main phase. Thoughts?
1 Ice Cage Given the number of pingers and tappers, I don't think it's worth it.
1 Deprive Costing a land makes it worse than the competition.
Alexi's Cloak Much worse than Cho-Manno's Blessing, much too narrow in my opinion.
Confound I'm really not sure, seems better than Alexis Cloak and possibly worth it as a limited Shelter. Thoughts?
Draft it on Cubetutor!
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Haha I did notice the counterspell, thought I'll add it in at the end, then totally forgot. Totally missed Arcane Denial though
Counterspell In case you don't know anything about magic, hard counters for two are broken in half.
Arcane Denial Is a great card. It's decent simply for the fact that you can counter one of your own spells to draw three cards, but really splashable blue counterspells are great, especially with so many blue tempo cards. It's actually deceptively good in control, too, as it helps you lock them out of the game by building up your metaphorical fortress and the two cards they get don't do too much to stop this. I know it seems like a terrible cost to pay, but it really is very good.
Courier's Capsule: Is lacklustre blue draw. Inspiration and Divination are similar in power level, so if it's necessary, run it, but it's hardly amazing.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Memory Lapse--A great tempo counter that answers any spell, no questions asked. The fact that they will draw the card again is totally set off by the fact that you only had to keep 1U up to answer anything they played.
Mana Leak--Possibly my favorite Pauper legal counterspell. It's splashable and good at pretty much any stage in the game. Even late in the game when the opponent can afford to pay 3 after a spell, you wait and catch them when they try to play 2 spells in a turn.
Counterspell--It's simple and efficient. That's all I can say for it.
Think Twice--Not the most exciting card, but it's card advantage at instant speed, at common rarity, and for relatively little mana investment.
Miscalculation--Even with Cycling, I prefer this much less than Mana Leak, but it's still good long into the game as a counter and if you are so behind that you don't need a counter, it cycles to help dig for that out. This should be in every list.
Into the Roil--It's versatile and can attain card parity. It's usually used at 4 mana, but being able to cast it for 2 in a pinch is nice.
Impulse--Digging 4 cards at instant speed is huge and is pretty much the closest thing we have to a tutor. If you didn't find what you were looking for, counting your next draw step, you dug 5 cards deep. On turn 2 that is 15.6% of your deck and that's huge--it only gets better the later the game goes.
Arcane Denial--My second favorite counter in the cube and is unbelievably good. Sure, it's card disadvantage, but being able to counter anything--literally anything for 2 splashable mana and know that spell is gone(unlike Memory Lapse) is amazing. It's definitely one of those cards you have to play with to understand how good it is and so everyone should as soon as possible. I didn't use to be a believer.
Withdraw--This card is the nuts. It's such a huge tempo swing for such a small cost. Also, like Rubin8or said, it's still very good if used on an etb creature of your own and something of the opponent's. You will be able to double bounce opposing creatures more games than you won't with this and that's a good place to be in.
See Beyond--Just bad. 2 mana, sorcery speed, 0 net card advantage. Imagine being low on cards, or god forbid, topdecking and then you draw this while trying to dig for an out...I'd rather run Divination over this because the extra card will probably save you a lot more times than skimming on 1 mana will probably get you.
Treasure Hunt--So bad. Sure, sometimes you'll rip 6 cards with this badboy, but then others it'll just cycle...at sorcery speed. There are certainly worse cards you could run, but it's just not worth the slot.
Snap--Don't like it. Being free does not make this worth a card.
Remove Soul--Not exciting, but it's a solid role filler and it will always have a target. It's obviously worse than ever other viable 1U counterspell, but still good enough to run.
Essence Scatter--Same.
Train of Thought--Too slow. This is not Tidings.
Spreading Seas--There will be times that this is very good, but those won't outweight the number of times it is weak. U is too tight for cards like this.
Lat-Nam's Legacy--Better than See Beyond and worse than every other Pauper viable card draw. Virtual card advantage is ok with Brainstorm and a shuffle effect because it's 1 mana and draws 3 cards...I'll continue to pass on this.
Ice Cage--This card seems more awkward than it really is. Sure, there are pingers and tappers in Pauper limited, but there is something to be said for the fact that it not only stops attackers and blockers, but it stops those very same pingers and tappers. Most of the effects that would target the enchanted creature would render it useless anyway, but obviously exceptions apply. I have been surprisingly fine with this card.
Deprive--We don't need so many hard counters that this should be used. It's hard to describe to some people just how bad this card can be and usually is. Daze is fine because it is free. This not only requires you to keep UU up for whatever your opponent plays, but you better hope you aren't already on the fences, because skipping a land drop won't help that situation.
Courier's Capsule--I like it better than See Beyond, Treasure Hunt, Train of Thought, and probably Lat-Nam's Legacy. That said, I don't really like it enough that I could cut anything that's not already getting cut.
Alexi's Cloak--It's ok, but U just has so many better options. A G version of this at common could very well make the cut(ok, maybe not).
Confound--This is the card Turn Aside wishes it was. It not only protects your own creatures, but can be used to negate opposing pump spells including Armadillo Claok and the like. Definitely a card to keep your eye on and I may try it out in the future.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Memory Lapse is a great tempo card. There's not really anything else to say.
Mana Leak is tied 1st place for best counterspell with Counterspell. And that's a great place to be.
Counterspell is... well, I just said it, so tilt your head up a bit.
Think Twice is deceptively good. 5 mana for 2 cards isn't the best thing, but throw in instant speed and cut up the spell into two and suddenly it's very, very solid.
Miscalculation is good, but not as good as the other counters. Flexibility saves it, but even so, the times it does what it's mean to a counters a spell are much fewer than Mana Leak.
Into the Roil is just good. Cantrippin' bounce will do that to you.
Impulse is just, ridiculous. 4 cards deep in not bad at all.
Arcane Denial is good, but requires skill and courage to play with. I've drafted this twice and played about 20 games with it in my deck. Only about half the time do I have the balls to play it.
Withdraw is awesome good. Ridiculously versatile and even at it's worst, it's still good.
See Beyond is pretty bad. I'll be cutting it soon.
Treasure Hunt is ditto.
Snap is ditto.
Remove Soul is good for the same reason Exclude is the best counterspell (opinions may vary). Not the best, but still solid as a rock.
Essence Scatter is the same.
Train of Thought is very expensive. Probably will cut it soon.
Spreading Seas is pretty bad.
Lat-Nam's Legacy is interesting, but ultimately I don't think it'll cut the mustard.
Ice Cage is no Narcolepsy. It's too unreliable to be worth it. It's not terrible, but definitely under the line of cubeable.
Deprive is pretty weak for a counterspell. There are a lot of better ones out there.
Courier's Capsule
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
The counters: Counterspell, Mana Leak, Memory Lapse are all amazing. Miscalculation, Negate and Arcane Denial are all quite good too. Deprive (currently in my cube) has fun synergy with some of the new Zendikar lands (like Halimar Depths) or critters with landfall, which can make the difference in long games. Essence Scatter and Removal Soul - nabbing creatures for 1U is good, but probably only one or the other of these should be in the cube.
The bounce: Into the Roil can replace itself, so clearly a winner. Withdraw can also give random blowouts and will make your opponents in games 2 and 3 afraid to tap down everything at any point in the game. Snap - interesting effect and I like Cloud of Faeries for the untap, but I think playing a creature on your turn and having mana free for countering on there turn is better than bouncing and doing the same. Maybe if this card cycled too it would be worth it.
The draw: Think Twice amazing versatility drawing at instant speed. Early it lets you keep mana open for a counter threat (real or perceived) and then still be able to do something with that mana if your opponent didn't play anything, late it is like a Mysteries of the Deep. Also gives you value even if you have to pitch it to something like Liliana's Specter. Impulse - wow, that's some digging. Needs to get one for my cube. See Beyond is better than I think people are giving it credit for, and better than Lat-Nam's Legacy IMHO. See Beyond early can help you get lands if you're short and play them that turn instead of waiting until next turn. If I need an answer late game, I'd much rather rip the See Beyond as well as it digs for an answer right then and there instead of waiting until next upkeep. Lat-Nam's Legacy is also a dead card if drawn as a top-deck, since you need another card to pitch in order to draw the two. I think Lat-Nam's Legacy might be better for counter heavy builds that don't want to tap out on their turn, but I prefer See Beyond overall. Courier's Capsule is okay - not a card you're ever excited about, but solid filler when putting a draft deck together. Treasure Hunt may not be amazing compared to the other cards here, but has the potential for some pretty hilarious draws - which I think is part of what cube construction should be about! Train of Thought is neat, but I think is trumped by all the draw listed above.
The "removal": Narcolepsy is great. The only thing it doesn't really shut down is pingers. I've never been a big fan of Ice Cage. If you want an effect like this, Sleeping Potion might be better, since it at least taps the creature as well in case they have some way to target and get rid of it.
Other: Spreading Seas had it's moments in Standard, but not really powerful in cube. Too many better cards that could take its place, as Drahcir has already noted. Eel Umbra wasn't on anyone's lists, but the flash makes it a nice trick worth considering: you can use it to kill an opponent's creature (that blocked or was blocked), save your creature from death (totem armor - potentially twice!) or sneak in some extra damage. There's a lot of ways you can get two for ones with this card - I hear blue likes cards like this.
Sig courtesy of Disappointing Signet Inc.
My Cubes:
Goblin Pile Shuffler's 360 Card Pauper Cube - updated 1/4/2014
Goblin Pile Shuffler's 270 Card One-Drop Cube - updated 1/4/2014
I definitely like Legacy a lot more than See Beyond, but maybe there's just more instant speed control here. Instant speed is really a pretty large bonus on a 2cmc spell.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
6 Rushing River
6 Frantic Search
5 Undo
5 Compulsive Research
4 Repulse
4 Oona’s Grace
4 Exclude
4 Capsize
2 Rethink
2 False Demise
2 Divination
2 Æther Tradewinds
1 Number Crunch
1 Convolute
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Frantic Search I think this is pretty amazing in the early game and good in the mid-game. If you've got this card in your deck, you've got to play smart and hold cards back so its not a dead draw if you rip it late.
Undo Two for one! I'm surprised it wasn't a six.
Compulsive Research Good in all stages of the game - digs deeper that Divination for the same cost and potentially nets you the same number of total cards.
Repulse Cantripping bounce seems good. Perhaps I should be running this too.
Oona's Grace Being able to cycle any land for 2U is pretty good.
Exclude Cantripping creature counter also seems good.
Capsize I think this card is amazing. This card can be such a beating late game lock down when you can buy it back and do it every turn. It's insane in my friend's powered cube - I haven't seen it in action in my pauper cube yet. It also effectively prevents your opponent from using creature enchantments and equipment late game.
Rethink I think Convolute is a better card than this. Most cards in cube cost four or less, so generally the X in Rethink will be less than or equal to 4. Even when needing to counter a spell of CMC 5 or 6, the chances that the opponent will have 4 or more untapped lands untapped are slim. Rethink is bad late game as you simply can't stop spells with CMC of 1, 2 or possibly even 3.
False Demise this card just doesn't feel blue to me. I think it'd be good in a re-animator type deck and with creatures that enter the battlefield. Still - it feels like this card should be black.
Divination staple card drawing. Not exciting, but not bad either.
Aether Tradewinds Some interesting tricks are possible with this card - it kind of needs to be built around though and needs some other cards to support it.
Number Crunch I don't play Un cards, but this one seems way too easy to keep getting back.
Convolute see above under Rethink
Quick side question that is sort of on topic since we're talking about blue, non-creature spells: does anyone know of a blue common "Control Magic"-type spell at the common slot? I haven't been able to find any.
Sig courtesy of Disappointing Signet Inc.
My Cubes:
Goblin Pile Shuffler's 360 Card Pauper Cube - updated 1/4/2014
Goblin Pile Shuffler's 270 Card One-Drop Cube - updated 1/4/2014
6 Frantic Search Simply great card, card quality for no mana.
5 Undo I'm not currently running this. There's probabaly something worse in my blue noncreature section, so it's quite likely it'll come in. However, double blue and sorcery speed both hurt it a whole lot.
5 Compulsive Research Really good. You should be running it.
4 Repulse Good card, complements Into the Roil and Repeal as the staple bounce-draw cards. I like it probably less than Repeal but more than Into the Roil, because having three up really isn't an issue at most stages of the game.
4 Oona’s Grace How has this been playing for people? It seems to me that the decks that could potentially abuse it most would be the decks that it's worst in, as these decks need a rather large amount of land. Still unsure, though.
4 Exclude Why isn't this a 6? This is my favourite counterspell in the cube, and, in my opinion, justifiably so as it is blue, splashable, card advantage and countermagic. Four of the best traits of cards in the cube, right there.
4 Capsize I won't first pick anything over capsize. Nothing. Not Faith's Fetters, not Pestilence, not Guardian of the Guildpact, not Rolling Thunder, not Crypt Rats, nor Rancor or Sprout Swarm, not Vulshok Morningstar. Well, that's not exactly true because drafting often involves not picking the best card P1P1.
2 Rethink Convolute is better. And bad.
2 False Demise Interesting, but it seems rather narrow. It can save a creature of yours or, along with removal, Mind Control one of their dudes. However, esoecially with only rather small creatures running around, it seems rather bad.
2 Divination My cube, luckily, doesn't need it. So average.
2 Æther Tradewinds Decent sometimes. Worse than a 3cmc boomerang most times, however, so I'm not running it.
1 Number Crunch Good if you run un, but seems really freakin annoying.
1 ConvoluteOvercosted countermagic, even Cancel is arguably better.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Frantic Search is hot. Seriously.
Undo is pretty good. Two-for-ones are like that.
Compulsive Research is amazing. Seriously.
Repulse is the classic formula: bounce + cantrip = good.
Oona’s Grace is a great engine. It cycles through your deck like a madman in the late game, and it's not a bad discard target, which there are quite a lot of in blue.
Exclude is the best counterspell in Pauper, hands down.
Capsize is insane. I've drafted it twice in the past two weeks and both times it's just ridiculous. Sometimes I refrain from using it, since I don't like making the game unfun for my opponents, but seriously, it's amazing.
Rethink is great to blow out your opponent when they play an X spell. But then again, so is pretty much every other counter, including Cancel (since by the time they're confident enough to play an X spell to your face, you probably have UU). Really, just a bad counterspell.
False Demise is bad. I need to cut it.
Divination is not exciting, but a good role-filler.
Æther Tradewinds is a spot-filler. Nothing great, but if it works, it works.
Number Crunch is hilarious. I love Un cards, but I agree, this may be more annoying that Carnivorous Death-Parrot.
Convolute is just a bad counterspell. There are way too many better other cards to consider this.
@Goblin Pile Driver
Well, there's Ray of Command. That's the closest you'll get.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Yeah, Ray of Command, Shade's Form, False Demise and Act of Treason are all of the things that can make you control their stuff. It's funny, all of those cards are at least borderline cube cards. And Ray of Command is damn awesome.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Divination makes the number of cards in play and in your hand go up two, for one card (it goes to the graveyard, obviously), so is a two for one. Undo does not get rid of any card long term, so is a 1 for 0. Card advantage terms are pretty stupid, though. Lightning Bolt aimed at the face doesn't give you card advantage, that doesn't mean it isn't better than Sift.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Example:
Opponent:
-3 cards in hand
-4 lands in play
-2 creatures in play
Opponent's total card resources = 3+4+2. (obviously, the stuff in play tends to weight heavier than stuff in the hand due to tempo, but strictly on card advantage lines, they have 9 cards.
Scenario 1:
I cast Terminate
I lose the spell from my hand (-1 card resources), and they lose the creature on the board (-1 card resources), for a grand total of -1 vs. -1 or a 1-for-1 trade.
Scenario 2:
I cast Wrath of God
I lose the spell from my hand (-1 card resources), and they both creatures on the board (-2 card resources), for a grand total of -2 vs. -1 or a 2-for-1 trade in your favor.
Scenario 3:
I cast Undo
I lose the spell from my hand (-1 card resources), and they lose two creatures on the board (-2 card resources), but they get 2 more cards in hand (+2 card resources) for a grand total of -0 vs. -1 or a 0-for-1 trade.
Consider that you Undo your opponent's Savannah Lions and Elite Vanguard when they are playing aggro. They just play them again the next turn. All undo did was delay those creatures attacking - it gains you time (we call this tempo).
[Remixes] - [The Brutal Cube - 360 Powered] - [My Cube Article] - ['Print-This' Wishlist]
Ooh, now I get you. What you meant is a 0 for 1. You confused me by suddenly switching the order of the numbers in the same sentence.
@TakeABow
I'm not a total idiot. I understand card advantage and tempo; I have played MTG regularly for 2 years now. Rubin8r just confused me when he said 1 for 0 instead of 0 for 1.
And that example is really an extreme one. Yes, against blindingly fast aggro decks, Undo isn't that great. Neither is Capsize (which is actually worse in this situation) or most of the other blue noncreatures. There's no need to pull out such a wildly biased example like that.
Hope I didn't sound antagonistic or anything. I just read your reply as condescending. And really, there's no argument here, just some slight confusion, so I hope this doesn't erupt into a fight.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
No, no fight fight. Just undo gives you no real card advantage and is only good in games where tempo matter (which is pretty much every game, and true for every tempo card. This doesn't make it a bad card.)
I'm sure Take a Bow was only trying to clear things up. He's not a pauper cuber (?) so probably hasn't seen you around a lot and has no idea how new you are to the game, and I really don't think that it's condescending at all. Afterall, Undo is bad against very fast aggro, which really makes a dent against a tempo card (tempo is the main thing that beats aggro, afterall, because aggro wins the games which don't leave the early game).
Draft it on Cubetutor!
It wasn't that last thing that made me think he was being slightly condescending. It was him acting like I didn't know what card advantage was at all. And the line, "we call it tempo", it was just a bit on my nerves. But maybe he's just trying to help, but my first reaction was that he was treating me like a complete newbie at magic.
But no, it's fine.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Draft it on Cubetutor!
5 Foresee
5 Deep Analysis
4 Choking Tethers
3 Ray of Command
1 Mystic Restraints
1 Inspiration
1 Flight of Fancy
Deep Analysis draws you four cards for six mana. Do I even need to say more?
Choking Tethers isn't the best card, but it does what it's meant to well most of the time. On its way to the chopping block.
Ray of Command is one of a kind for Pauper. I should try it out sometime.
Mystic Restraints is close. I mean, 4 mana removal isn't uncommon (mind the pun) to Pauper. And blue likes removal, even if it's a tad bit expensive. But I think it's just not good enough; close, but close isn't acceptable.
Inspiration is kind of solid, I guess. I mean, pretty much everyone plays with Think Twice anyway. But it's kind of unnecessary next to Foresee and Deep Analysis.
Flight of Fancy is just unnecessary.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Deep Analysis The best here, IMHO. It's pretty much a 3U draw three cards spell, but one of those cards is guaranteed to be a slightly worse Night's Whisper. Run it.
Choking Tethers I'm not sure as I haven't run it at all yet, but both abilities seem overcosted and the fact that they are so similar means that there is rather limited utility in it.
Ray of Command This is a surprisingly good card. At the worst it's a 4 mana Threaten , but oftentimes you use it on their creatures after they've attacked you, and it's really easy to kill a creature and fog another, with 2 for 1s happening rather often as well. Great card.
Mystic Restraints Removal for 4 is too much. Yes, I realise that the best removal spell in the cube costs 4, but it can be used on almost anything and the life gained is very relevant.
Inspiration I like the card, but it was always really a filler. A bread and butter effect, but is pretty much outclassed by the sorceries, sadly.
Flight of Fancy Really a bad card. Draw that dies to removal is very shaky, add to the mix that it's not even efficient and also conditional, and you have a bad card.
Draft it on Cubetutor!