Draw-go obviously isn't as powerful in Pauper as in normal cubes. But you can't expect adding Inspiration and similar low-power levels cards would benefit more than it hurts. Draw-go has it's tools, like Think Twice and muchly counterspells. It's not necessary.
Flight of Fancy is severely underrated. At worst its a crappy inspiration, at best, its card advantage and turns a creature into an evading beat stick.
Removal means that the ETB ability doesn't trigger, right? If so, then it's a terrible card because they can so easily two for 1 you. I'd much rather have Divination either way, and that's both not good and unexciting.
About draw-go: It's an archetype that's seen a bit of play here, and it can be a rather cool deck. Sadly, it's not nearly common enough or good enough to run support specifically for it. Anyway, I'd rather run Foresee over Inspiration in anything but the tightest mono blue draw-go deck, because removal is often as common as countermagic. They're still draw-go decks as they will only tap out a few times in a game, but they've never been that strict here.
I'll still run it. If it forces someone to kill a creature soley because it would gain flying and I get two cards, sure its a 2 vs 1 but if it wasn't a very good creature to begin with maybe a token, or a 1/1 of some kind, I'd rather they burn it then, than burn it on something important.
Flight of Fancy is severely underrated. At worst its a crappy inspiration, at best, its card advantage and turns a creature into an evading beat stick.
It can be a dead card due to there being no creatures, which is a pretty relevant drawback for blue decks. Although, I could see cutting Inspiration in the future when another draw spell comes around.
Foresee - I've gotta say, I underestimated Foresee, but I'm a fan. I'd consider it a staple at this point.
Deep Analysis - Although, I still think that Deep Analysis is the king. I don't think that it needs too much explanation, but I think of Deep Analysis as Concentrate that draws you a slightly worse version of Night's Whisper (one that makes you lose 3 life.)
Choking Tethers - I probably should consider it as a 1U card, since that's how it plays out most of the time, like a weird version of Ice. Occasionally it can "go for the throat" by tapping 4 creatures, but most of the time it supplements blue's defensive decks more than acting like a Falter.
Ray of Command - Due to blue's natural defensiveness, I find that it acts more like a 2-for-1 by stealing a creature (it untapping a creature is huge) more than a threaten effect, but I think that it's still a great card. Like Choking Tethers, it can eventually go into offense mode (steal your Dauthi Marauder, attack with it and my leveled Cliffhaven FTW?)
Mystic Restraints - As useful as removal is for blue (especially instant speed) - 4 mana is just way too much. It stops things like pingers which Pacifism can't, but the increased cost is way too much.
Inspiration - Fits in blue control decks pretty decently, but it's on the low tier of blue draw spells, I'd much rather have Mysteries of the Deep or Think Twice. It'll probably get the boot once there's another really good draw spell.
Flight of Fancy - Pretty much what I said above, blue not having creatures out (or having to put it on an opponent's creatures) is a pretty realistic drawback, it also has sorcery speed and can be countered with removal. Not a fan at all, I like Train of Thought more.
Rushing River--This card is pretty much nuts. Although, it will mostly be used on creatures the opportunity for other permanents makes it very versatile.
Frantic Search--It's a free dig spell and can even ramp you if you have a bounceland on the battlefield.
Undo--It looks fine, but I don't know that U needs this. I wouldn't fault anyone for running it though.
Compulsive Research--Why is this not a 6? Three mana to draw 3 cards is way too good not to run.
Repulse--Better than I originally gave it credit for and I will be adding it.
Oona’s Grace--Looks pretty clunky to me. I don't find I'm in too positions where I want to pitch my lands as a control player. Obviously, there are going to be times where you draw 10 or more lands, but I don't think those will be enough to warrant this card. I'd be more on board if it were costed at 1U and were a sorcery.
Exclude--Better than I originally gave it credit for and I will be adding it. Also better than Repulse, not that that means anything.
Capsize--This really needs to be a 6 too. It's pretty slow, but it striaght up wins the control mirror and can be a versatile stabilizing tool if paired up with a sizable blocker or other removal.
Rethink--It almost always does its job, but it's still not very good. Will be cutting for Repulse.
Æther Tradewinds--Do not want. There are enough better bounce effects that I don't think this should make the cut.
Number Crunch--Can be very good if you decide to run Un-cards. I know in Unhinged drafts, one of my favorite combos was pairing Loose Lips with a gotcha card.
Convolute--Better than Rethink, so it still does its job enough times, but I will be dropping it for Exclude.
Foresee--This card can be so hopeless to play against. Digging potentially 6 deep is so huge that it's worth the hefty mana cost.
Deep Analysis--I agree with the others when I say this is the best card in this section. Easy to cast 4-for-1's are among my favorite cards.
Choking Tethers--Don't think it's neccessary. It will be fine most games, but it's definitely unexciting.
Ray of Command--This is interesting enough I want to try it, but I don't know what I'd want to cut for it. I could go either way on this card.
Foresee - digs for answers like no other. I like it.
Deep Analysis - You all made good points about this card - I should be running this.
Choking Tethers - I like this card because of its versatility - it is good both in control and aggro.
Ray of Command - I just picked this card up and recently and think I might add it to my cube. It is a great trick and the only blue spell common "Control Magic" effect.
Mystic Restraints - I think this card is better than everyone is giving it credit for because it has flash. Creature removal costing 4 in blue is good and even better since you can play this spell on their turn when they tap out for their big creature.
Inspiration - Not bad, but not amazing either. I think there are more exciting cards available to blue.
Flight of Fancy Currently in my cube, but you all have convinced me that I should be running something else in its place.
Mystical Teaching - Do you consider this card to be blue/black? If not, I think it's worth considering. Tutoring is hard to come by in pauper it seems, especially at instant speed. There's some pretty good things to tutor for - removal, card drawing, even big critters like Havenwood Wurm.
Mystical Teaching is good, but it's UB, so it gets stomped by the competition. Although I don't know, I might want to try to force it in again; I can see it being really good.
But let's get to that when we touch multicolor.
I think we're ready to move on. Final blue section will be up in a bit.
@ GPS: Yeah, Teachings is colour aligned, so is counted in the multicoloured section (I think the colours it is best in is what Lanxal is going on). Teachings is still a good card without flashback, to a degree, but I always add at least two black sources if I'm running it to get full value.
Repeal: Card is insane, very efficient if you're targeting something with CMC 2 or less, fine if you're targeting CMC 3 and it can be used to bounce larger things later. The fact that it scales up means it is useful at ALL stages of the game, which is key to how awesome it is. Mysteries of the Deep: I'm not as much of a fan as some, I think this card is far worse than either Foresee or Deep Analysis. However, it can (albeit rarely) be a 4UJace's Ingenuity, most of the time can be a 4UConcentrate (sorcery speed) or, if needed, a 4UInspiration. Condescend: Ridiculous, it feels so unfair getting card quality out of an efficient counterspell. Probably around the fourth best counter in the cube, and that's saying something. Whiplash Trap: Too expensive for one mode, too conditional for the other. Don't think it's worth it myself. Power Sink is a card I found really hard to cut. One power sink will buy you a turn against almost any deck, providing you haven't tapped too much mana earlier. I'm still on the fence, but it isn't as insane as Condescend.
Repeal--I'm not as big of a fan of this card as Into the Roil, but it's still quite good and easily worth running.
Mysteries of the Deep--Too expensive for what it does, imo. At 5 mana and up, I usually want something that effects the board state.
Condescend--This is very good. One of the rare X counterspells that is useful even if your opponent can pay X.
Whiplash Trap--Definitely one of the cards that looks looser than it really is. The trap cost isn't as uncommon as some of you probably think. It's perfectly fine when your opponent is curving out, especially if you used something like Man-O'-War earlier. That said, I wouldn't fault someone for not running it, but it's not on my chopping block as of now.
Power Sink --Really surprised I'm the only one running this right now. From the lists I've seen so far, some of you are definitely running cards worse than this one. Agreed that it's not as good in general as Condescend, but being able to buy a whole turn by tapping all your mana (or less than that if you know whatever else they need to cast is more than what mana you have left) is pretty awesome.
Mysteries of the Deep - Decent. I like that you have options with this card. It is quite difficult to get the draw 3 at instant speed, though - maybe they'll release a functional reprint of Terramorphic Expanse every new set and this card will be really good in ten years!
Condescend and Power Sink - I think only one of these should go in the cube, and Condescend edges out Power Sink thanks to the library manipulation. I've been seriously considering Condescend and may put it in soon myself.
Whiplash Trap - I agree with Drahcir's thoughts on this. With lots of token creators in a cube, this can easily get cast for its trap cost. Even at its full cost, it can set your opponent a turn behind when you bounce their two biggest critters.
I'm currently running Traumatic Visions at the moment and think its worth considering. Most of the time, this card will be used to tutor a basic land for 1U at instant speed. That's really good for blue. The ability to use it as a counter spell late game (even though it is a ridiculously expensive counter) is just the gravy on top.
Running Traumatic Visions over Condescend and even Power Sink is just not the right choice. The land tutor is nice, but outclassed by every other blue card advantage spell ever. And unlike the scourge landcyclers, it's hardly even relevant if hardcasted.
On the other hand, Condescend is one of the best counters in blue.
I wouldn't consider 1U basic landcycling "really good". These double-sided cards, like Noble Templar, are good because the landcycling enhances the already good 'normal' side of the card. If the landcycling is better than the actually card itself, it's not worth it.
Rush of Knowledge is unreliable, which is not something I want my spells to be. Obviously insane when you already have your finisher down, but that's really win more. Really, just play the other drawspells.
Rhystic Study basically adds 1 to ther mana cost. Except, you know, when they don't care. I really don't think it's worth it.
Frozen Solid is bad, and blue removal is blue removal, but I just don't like it. I won't fault anyone for running it, though.
Apathy is interesting, but really, it's no deterent. Really aggro cards don't really care, and any other decks can wait until all the goodies are out of their hand. I guess it could work, but it requires testing.
The biggest problem with most of these cards is just that there isn't enough room for them.
Rush of Knowledge really is nothing without green, making it very narrow, as well as being unreliable and counterable by removal spells. Not a bad card, but there are just better draw spells.
Rhystic Study: Seems decent, if that's what your cube wants. Isn't a large deterrent against aggro though, if they've got the nuts.
Frozen Solid seems obviously worse than Narcolepsy and Curse of Chains, and personally I'd run Ice Cage and Paralyzing Grasp over it. Very fringe card, could make the cut somewhere though.
Apathy is also bad against blockers because they can just discard a card and then not tap it again. It is very efficient though, so may be worth it. Gut feeling says they have too many outs.
Speaking of cheap blue removal, Mana Chains looks cool, but ultimately not good enough.
Apathy is also bad against blockers because they can just discard a card and then not tap it again. It is very efficient though, so may be worth it. Gut feeling says they have too many outs.
Speaking of cheap blue removal, Mana Chains looks cool, but ultimately not good enough.
Thought of another way, in that scenario, Apathy is half a Hymn to Tourach and half a Pacifism for U.
Mana Chains looks neat - it might not be good enough for a 360, but I could see it eking into a larger cube. At the least, it brings in more cumulative upkeep, which I think is a neat mechanic.
I've got to admit, I find it weird that someone's running Vampire Lacerator and not Carnophage. It seems like good cheap aggressive creatures are pretty much always in demand for cubes and they're approximately the same card. If anything I'd run Carnophage over Vampire Lacerator if I had to pick one, but honestly it's just weird to not have both.
Oh, since I'm just jumping right in to this conversation, a little background may be in order. I've been running my own regular cube for a while now, and I'm in the process of building a tiny (like 200 cards) pauper cube intended to be used for two player sealed and winston drafting. Thanks for all you guys have done with this thread and the pauper power rankings, they've pointed me to cards I'd never have thought of.
Does the person running corpulent corpse like it? Ive been changing my cube a lot recently and have been meaning to try it...what do other people think? I feel like if you dont have it on turn 1 or even 2 its pretty terrible.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You always hear about the games armageddon wins 100% of the time. You never hear about the game that it rots in your hand and you get beatdown.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
About draw-go: It's an archetype that's seen a bit of play here, and it can be a rather cool deck. Sadly, it's not nearly common enough or good enough to run support specifically for it. Anyway, I'd rather run Foresee over Inspiration in anything but the tightest mono blue draw-go deck, because removal is often as common as countermagic. They're still draw-go decks as they will only tap out a few times in a game, but they've never been that strict here.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
It can be a dead card due to there being no creatures, which is a pretty relevant drawback for blue decks. Although, I could see cutting Inspiration in the future when another draw spell comes around.
Foresee - I've gotta say, I underestimated Foresee, but I'm a fan. I'd consider it a staple at this point.
Deep Analysis - Although, I still think that Deep Analysis is the king. I don't think that it needs too much explanation, but I think of Deep Analysis as Concentrate that draws you a slightly worse version of Night's Whisper (one that makes you lose 3 life.)
Choking Tethers - I probably should consider it as a 1U card, since that's how it plays out most of the time, like a weird version of Ice. Occasionally it can "go for the throat" by tapping 4 creatures, but most of the time it supplements blue's defensive decks more than acting like a Falter.
Ray of Command - Due to blue's natural defensiveness, I find that it acts more like a 2-for-1 by stealing a creature (it untapping a creature is huge) more than a threaten effect, but I think that it's still a great card. Like Choking Tethers, it can eventually go into offense mode (steal your Dauthi Marauder, attack with it and my leveled Cliffhaven FTW?)
Mystic Restraints - As useful as removal is for blue (especially instant speed) - 4 mana is just way too much. It stops things like pingers which Pacifism can't, but the increased cost is way too much.
Inspiration - Fits in blue control decks pretty decently, but it's on the low tier of blue draw spells, I'd much rather have Mysteries of the Deep or Think Twice. It'll probably get the boot once there's another really good draw spell.
Flight of Fancy - Pretty much what I said above, blue not having creatures out (or having to put it on an opponent's creatures) is a pretty realistic drawback, it also has sorcery speed and can be countered with removal. Not a fan at all, I like Train of Thought more.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
Frantic Search--It's a free dig spell and can even ramp you if you have a bounceland on the battlefield.
Undo--It looks fine, but I don't know that U needs this. I wouldn't fault anyone for running it though.
Compulsive Research--Why is this not a 6? Three mana to draw 3 cards is way too good not to run.
Repulse--Better than I originally gave it credit for and I will be adding it.
Oona’s Grace--Looks pretty clunky to me. I don't find I'm in too positions where I want to pitch my lands as a control player. Obviously, there are going to be times where you draw 10 or more lands, but I don't think those will be enough to warrant this card. I'd be more on board if it were costed at 1U and were a sorcery.
Exclude--Better than I originally gave it credit for and I will be adding it. Also better than Repulse, not that that means anything.
Capsize--This really needs to be a 6 too. It's pretty slow, but it striaght up wins the control mirror and can be a versatile stabilizing tool if paired up with a sizable blocker or other removal.
Rethink--It almost always does its job, but it's still not very good. Will be cutting for Repulse.
False Demise--This card is too awkard, imo.
Divination--Not good enough.
Æther Tradewinds--Do not want. There are enough better bounce effects that I don't think this should make the cut.
Number Crunch--Can be very good if you decide to run Un-cards. I know in Unhinged drafts, one of my favorite combos was pairing Loose Lips with a gotcha card.
Convolute--Better than Rethink, so it still does its job enough times, but I will be dropping it for Exclude.
Deep Analysis--I agree with the others when I say this is the best card in this section. Easy to cast 4-for-1's are among my favorite cards.
Choking Tethers--Don't think it's neccessary. It will be fine most games, but it's definitely unexciting.
Ray of Command--This is interesting enough I want to try it, but I don't know what I'd want to cut for it. I could go either way on this card.
Mystic Restraints--Too slow, no thanks.
Inspiration--Got cut a long time ago from my cube and I haven't looked back. It's not good enough, imo.
Flight of Fancy--Way too akward for me to be interested, but I'm sure when you enchant something sizeable, it can be quite good.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Deep Analysis - You all made good points about this card - I should be running this.
Choking Tethers - I like this card because of its versatility - it is good both in control and aggro.
Ray of Command - I just picked this card up and recently and think I might add it to my cube. It is a great trick and the only blue spell common "Control Magic" effect.
Mystic Restraints - I think this card is better than everyone is giving it credit for because it has flash. Creature removal costing 4 in blue is good and even better since you can play this spell on their turn when they tap out for their big creature.
Inspiration - Not bad, but not amazing either. I think there are more exciting cards available to blue.
Flight of Fancy Currently in my cube, but you all have convinced me that I should be running something else in its place.
Mystical Teaching - Do you consider this card to be blue/black? If not, I think it's worth considering. Tutoring is hard to come by in pauper it seems, especially at instant speed. There's some pretty good things to tutor for - removal, card drawing, even big critters like Havenwood Wurm.
Sig courtesy of Disappointing Signet Inc.
My Cubes:
Goblin Pile Shuffler's 360 Card Pauper Cube - updated 1/4/2014
Goblin Pile Shuffler's 270 Card One-Drop Cube - updated 1/4/2014
But let's get to that when we touch multicolor.
I think we're ready to move on. Final blue section will be up in a bit.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Draft it on Cubetutor!
5 Repeal
5 Mysteries of the Deep
5 Condescend
1 Whiplash Trap
1 Power Sink
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Mysteries of the Deep: I'm not as much of a fan as some, I think this card is far worse than either Foresee or Deep Analysis. However, it can (albeit rarely) be a 4U Jace's Ingenuity, most of the time can be a 4U Concentrate (sorcery speed) or, if needed, a 4U Inspiration.
Condescend: Ridiculous, it feels so unfair getting card quality out of an efficient counterspell. Probably around the fourth best counter in the cube, and that's saying something.
Whiplash Trap: Too expensive for one mode, too conditional for the other. Don't think it's worth it myself.
Power Sink is a card I found really hard to cut. One power sink will buy you a turn against almost any deck, providing you haven't tapped too much mana earlier. I'm still on the fence, but it isn't as insane as Condescend.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Mysteries of the Deep--Too expensive for what it does, imo. At 5 mana and up, I usually want something that effects the board state.
Condescend--This is very good. One of the rare X counterspells that is useful even if your opponent can pay X.
Whiplash Trap--Definitely one of the cards that looks looser than it really is. The trap cost isn't as uncommon as some of you probably think. It's perfectly fine when your opponent is curving out, especially if you used something like Man-O'-War earlier. That said, I wouldn't fault someone for not running it, but it's not on my chopping block as of now.
Power Sink --Really surprised I'm the only one running this right now. From the lists I've seen so far, some of you are definitely running cards worse than this one. Agreed that it's not as good in general as Condescend, but being able to buy a whole turn by tapping all your mana (or less than that if you know whatever else they need to cast is more than what mana you have left) is pretty awesome.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Mysteries of the Deep - Decent. I like that you have options with this card. It is quite difficult to get the draw 3 at instant speed, though - maybe they'll release a functional reprint of Terramorphic Expanse every new set and this card will be really good in ten years!
Condescend and Power Sink - I think only one of these should go in the cube, and Condescend edges out Power Sink thanks to the library manipulation. I've been seriously considering Condescend and may put it in soon myself.
Whiplash Trap - I agree with Drahcir's thoughts on this. With lots of token creators in a cube, this can easily get cast for its trap cost. Even at its full cost, it can set your opponent a turn behind when you bounce their two biggest critters.
I'm currently running Traumatic Visions at the moment and think its worth considering. Most of the time, this card will be used to tutor a basic land for 1U at instant speed. That's really good for blue. The ability to use it as a counter spell late game (even though it is a ridiculously expensive counter) is just the gravy on top.
Sig courtesy of Disappointing Signet Inc.
My Cubes:
Goblin Pile Shuffler's 360 Card Pauper Cube - updated 1/4/2014
Goblin Pile Shuffler's 270 Card One-Drop Cube - updated 1/4/2014
On the other hand, Condescend is one of the best counters in blue.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Really, just run Shoreline Ranger if you want the effect.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Rush of Knowledge
Rhystic Study
Frozen Solid - not narcolepsy, but is cubeable nonetheless?
Apathy - worth the card?
Rhystic Study basically adds 1 to ther mana cost. Except, you know, when they don't care. I really don't think it's worth it.
Frozen Solid is bad, and blue removal is blue removal, but I just don't like it. I won't fault anyone for running it, though.
Apathy is interesting, but really, it's no deterent. Really aggro cards don't really care, and any other decks can wait until all the goodies are out of their hand. I guess it could work, but it requires testing.
The biggest problem with most of these cards is just that there isn't enough room for them.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Rhystic Study: Seems decent, if that's what your cube wants. Isn't a large deterrent against aggro though, if they've got the nuts.
Frozen Solid seems obviously worse than Narcolepsy and Curse of Chains, and personally I'd run Ice Cage and Paralyzing Grasp over it. Very fringe card, could make the cut somewhere though.
Apathy is also bad against blockers because they can just discard a card and then not tap it again. It is very efficient though, so may be worth it. Gut feeling says they have too many outs.
Speaking of cheap blue removal, Mana Chains looks cool, but ultimately not good enough.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Thought of another way, in that scenario, Apathy is half a Hymn to Tourach and half a Pacifism for U.
Mana Chains looks neat - it might not be good enough for a 360, but I could see it eking into a larger cube. At the least, it brings in more cumulative upkeep, which I think is a neat mechanic.
6 Vampire Lacerator
6 Fume Spitter
6 Carnophage
2 Carrion Feeder
1 Sewer Rats
1 Putrid Imp
1 Corpulent Corpse
Really, the only other card that's interesting is Viscera Seer.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
I've got to admit, I find it weird that someone's running Vampire Lacerator and not Carnophage. It seems like good cheap aggressive creatures are pretty much always in demand for cubes and they're approximately the same card. If anything I'd run Carnophage over Vampire Lacerator if I had to pick one, but honestly it's just weird to not have both.
Oh, since I'm just jumping right in to this conversation, a little background may be in order. I've been running my own regular cube for a while now, and I'm in the process of building a tiny (like 200 cards) pauper cube intended to be used for two player sealed and winston drafting. Thanks for all you guys have done with this thread and the pauper power rankings, they've pointed me to cards I'd never have thought of.
Edit: Yep, I definitely did. Carnophage up to 6, as it should be.
Also, your welcome rooneg! That's exactly what these projects were meant to do, so it's awesome that it's actually working as planned.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2