Zapgaze's 630 Card Powered Cube (updated Aug/03/2011)

Zapgaze · 10-20-2010, 12:21 PM

Cube Information:

The Cube:

Changelog:

October 10th, 2010:

December 14th, 2010:

February 22nd, 2011:

March 09th, 2011:

April 26th, 2011:

August 3rd, 2011:

Zapgaze · 10-20-2010, 04:29 PM

Latest update (August 3rd):

Hello Cubers,

The latest update adds both Commander and M12 changes, along with a few other changes here and there. The cube is also now completely resleeved, and I hope to be able to get up pictures of the new sexiness fairly soon. Until then, I hope you enjoy the latest update, and as always, I look forward to hearing your thoughts and comments!

Thanks,

-Zap

eidolon232 · 10-21-2010, 02:59 AM

Hi Zapgaze!
Here are the cc results for your list, maybe I have the time for a more detailed response later, but the first things that catches my eye is the high overall casting cost.
The gold section is a bit too big and some of the cards that you had to include there are worse and harder to cast than when what you get in the colored sections.
The 3 colored cards are even more restrictive and as soon as you have to wait one turn before you cast them, some of them are no longer good enough for the cube (or would you play a 5/4 vanilla for 4?).

zapgaze:

typos:

Zapgaze · 12-15-2010, 03:56 AM

Hey guys, check out the Changelog for a big update (December 14th), getting rid of some cards that have not been performing well for new cards to test out! I've also fixed all the typos eidolon pointed out, the entire list should be correct now.

Looking forward to comments and general discussion

- Zap

Betote · 12-15-2010, 04:26 AM

What's in and what's out?

Zapgaze · 12-15-2010, 04:29 AM

Cards on the left were replaced by cards on the right, hence the arrows!

EDIT: Realized I left one change off the list, fixed!

Spellbreaker Behemoth --> Deus of Calamity

eidolon232 · 12-15-2010, 04:44 AM

//White
Saltblast --> Pianna, Nomad Captain: Yeah, 5 mana is way too much for a restrictive sorcery speed removal spell that only trades 1:1

//Blue
Ethersworn Adjudicator --> Gilded Drake: the Adjudicator wasn't really a U card anyway
Sphinx of Lost Truths --> Misdirection: I don't care about either card, but Misdirection can generate more blow outs
Opportunity --> Memory Lapse: as long as there are no creatures on the table, this card ca be just as good as Time Walk

//Black
Fume Spitter --> Unearth: The 1 drop has been great for us so far
Undead Gladiator --> Corpse Dance: while it can be a recurring threat, the 1 toughness doesn't even allow him to attack into Knights and just using him to looter away cards for

is too expensive for anything but a reanimator deck that didn't get enough discard outlets.
Terror --> Nether Void: powerful card, but for some reason it gets removed from a couple of cubes in the last few weeks

//Red
Puncture Blast --> Arc Lightning: Arc Trail/ Lightning give red some cheap way to generate CA while still bieng usefull to burn your opponent out
Volcanic Fallout --> Arc Trail: Fallout is jsut a bad version of Pyroclasm, since it comes down later, is harder to cast and damages yourself
Wildfire --> Words of War: there ave to be better cuts than Wildfire- maybe Incendiary Command, Word of Seizing or the red Akroma. Wildfire is probably the most powerful card for red control decks in the cube.
Flame Slash --> Goblin Welder: I still like killing basically any creature with cmc <6 for a single mana (compare this efficiency with Smother)
Kumano, Master Yamabushi --> Hell's Thunder: it is funny how the rare version of the same card is worse than Hellspark Elemental at uncommon
Destructive Force --> Hellspark Elemental: great aggressive creature, especially if you have a use for the creature before it dies (Skullclamp !)
Dragonmaster Outcast --> Jackal Pup: Outcast was useless outside

Magus of the Moon --> Ravenous Baboons: MotM is way better in constructed

//Green
Bellowing Tanglewurm --> Krosan Tusker: very flexible card that gives green instant speed card draw
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa --> Carven Caryatid: awesome aggro stopper and if they have to use a 2 drop and a burn spell to deal with your wall, you effectively got a 3:1 and an extra turn out of the deal.
Iwamori of the Open Fist --> Caller of the Claw: you don't have to do anything specail to get 4-6 power out of this creature
Desert Twister --> Stunted Growth: it is an upgrade, but I still don't care too much about this Three Tragedies / Plow Under hybrid.

//Artifacts
Ratchet Bomb --> Karn, Silver Golem: looks like a downgrade too me. Karn is nothing but a big wall in combat
Staff of Domination --> Precursor Golem: Ok as long as you don't play against red, but this is a card that will certainly table

//Multicolored
Dimir Guildmage --> Recoil: 4 mana at sorcery speed for +1 CA is not good enough
Ghastlord of Fugue --> Wydwen, the Biting Gale: I was never a fan of the HHHHH, since they are so hard to cast and even in a 2c deck they don't profit from artifact mana
Wrecking Ball --> Sarkhan the Mad: see Saltblast
Call the Skybreaker --> Spellbound Dragon: the Dragon was a lot of fun for us and I would still play it if had another slot
Dominus of Fealty --> Suffocating Blast: it sucks a bit that the damage is not optional, but with 8 gold cards in each combination there is not much else that you could play.
Uril, the Miststalker --> Rith, the Awakener: I would not play a 3c 6 drop that just dies to Terror
Maelstrom Archangel --> Maelstrom Nexus: Nexus is so hard to cast, but you basically can't lose once you untap with this card.

//Lands
Crystal Quarry --> Grand Coliseum: great fixer
Windbrisk Heights --> Ghitu Encampment: increases the thread density for red decks and is easier to use than the Heights

edit: Spellbreaker Behemoth --> Deus of Calamity: Deus is hard to cast and easy to kill. I think you are better of with the 4 drop

wtwlf123 · 12-15-2010, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Fume Spitter --> Unearth

Is this supposed to be flipped, or did you cut Fume Spitter?

Quote:

Wildfire --> Words of War

Same here... did you cut Wildfire?

Quote:

Ratchet Bomb --> Karn, Silver Golem

While I still play both of these, Karn is closer to getting cut than Ratchet Bomb is.

bwian · 12-15-2010, 08:04 AM

I agree with Eidolon, I think Spellbreaker Behemoth is much better than Deus of Calamity. The all-hybrid cost eliminates some decks from casting it at all and doesn't work with a lot of artifact mana. Uril, the Miststalker is probably the better of the Naya swap as well.

rantipole · 12-15-2010, 09:18 AM

Fully agree with eidolon. And, never ever cut Wildfire!

Cheers,
rant

Zapgaze · 12-15-2010, 01:29 PM

Yay, comments!

Fume Spitter --> Unearth: during the 2 months that Fume Spitter was in the cube, it did not see play a single time and was constantly going in the last few picks of each draft. Perhaps the cut in general is a downgrade, but when we do our cube changes, we take draft results and what our playgroup has to say into consideration, and in this case, our playgroup has spoken. Perhaps Unearth will not work out for us either, but the fact was that Fume Spitter needed to be replaced.

Wildfire --> Words of War: Wildfire is, personally, one of my favorite red cards in the cube. Unfortunately, it was being given similar treatment to Fume Spitter. I'm hoping that by removing it, the people in our group will begin to miss it, giving me an opportunity to later add it in again to see more play. I'm sad to see this card go, and believe me I understand the cries of outrage from all of you, but at the moment it's for the best.

Ratchet Bomb --> Karn, Silver Golem: Perhaps it was me being naive by adding Ratchet Bomb in the first place, considering Powder Keg was cut long ago for seeing no play. Obviously (who would have thought?), the group gave Ratchet Bomb the same treatment. I personally am not a fan of either Powder Keg or Ratchet Bomb, and I'm glad to have the chance to try this card out.

Eidolon: From what I understand from your comments, for the most part they are positive, which I'm glad to hear. Some quick hits:

Sunblast was only in because the group felt as if White needed another answer to Planeswalkers.

Incendiary Command is one of my personal pet cards, and fortunately it sees a ton of play so we're glad to keep it in.

The same goes for Word of Seizing, a card that has created some huge blowouts, especially when used on Planeswalkers.

Red Akroma is a card that I don't actually like in the cube, but my cube partner insists on keeping it in and it sees enough play for me to not be able to convince him otherwise.

Flame Slash felt unnecessary and not what Red decks here wanted, which was damage that hit creatures as well as the face.

Stunted Growth has been spectacular since it was added in, the tempo it can generate especially when ramped into by a mana dork or two is just brutal; I'm definitely glad I gave it a shot.

Precursor Golem is a card I've been wanting to try out for a while, because 9 power at 5 mana, however conditional, still deserves to be tested out in my opinion. I look forward to seeing how it does in upcoming cubes.

The fact that Uril was not seeing play was honestly surprising to me, as a 5/5 troll shroud creature with the equipment in the cube seems like it should perform quite nicely. Since the change around 2 weeks ago, I've seen Rith in play more times than I ever saw Uril in play, and I honestly think it's simply because of the flying. Maybe the cut doesn't make sense, but apparently the group approves

With the amount of green ramp in the cube, I'm sure Deus will be seeing play in aggressive Green/Red decks in the near future. and if he doesn't see the play I'm hoping he will, he'll just get the axe for another card in his color combination

Too bad I won't get the chance to see someone going turn 3 or 4 deus of calamity, wildfire the next turn! Also, when it comes to mana, Spellbreaker Behemoths 1RGG is not much easier to cast than Deus' HHHHH, and realistically, the both go in the same deck. Deus just comes down a turn later with a much more powerful effect.

I think that covers everything. I know some of these cuts seem weird, because the cards being added are worse than what is being cut, or there are better things to cut, but in the end when a card is not being played, no matter how powerful it is, there is no point in keeping it in the cube. There needs to be some way of deciding what to cut when new cards come out, and for us, we judge based on how much play things see.

Just a little note: These are changes that have been made to the cube progressively over the past 2 weeks or so. Some of them, like stunted growth, have already been played with, while others like deus of calamity, unearth, or precursor golem, have not. I have included everything in one update because I have just now gotten around to it. Many of these additions have not been tested, but I look forward to playing with every single one of them in the upcoming weeks. Keep in mind that with the proper testing (and trust me, they will be tested throughly :P) any of these cuts may be reversed.

Thanks for all the comments everyone, it's really appreciated! When I first posted my cube a while back, the only comment I got was from eidolon. I'm glad to see more response this time around

I would also love to hear any suggestions you guys have for cards that could fit into the gold section that we may have overlooked!

wtwlf123 · 12-15-2010, 01:39 PM

If you've never once cast Fume Spitter, how can you decide to cut it?

tomchaps · 12-15-2010, 01:46 PM

How does Carven Caryatid play? I've not seen it in a cube before, and it looks like an interesting Wall of Blossomsvariant.

Zapgaze · 12-15-2010, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtwlf123

If you've never once cast Fume Spitter, how can you decide to cut it?

You're honestly telling me that you'd keep in a card that no one wants to play after two months?

Caryatid has so far been pretty good, it's not as good as Wall of Blossoms but it is quite a beating against red and white aggro decks, especially if you play it turn two with turn one acceleration. We've been happy with it

Donald · 12-15-2010, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zapgaze

You're honestly telling me that you'd keep in a card that no one wants to play after two months?

Caryatid has so far been pretty good, it's not as good as Wall of Blossoms but it is quite a beating against red and white aggro decks, especially if you play it turn two with turn one acceleration. We've been happy with it

I'm with wtwlf here, playing a card and having it suck is one thing but never even trying it out isn't a good reason to cut it. I always try and make a point of playing cards nobody else wants to try and have found many cards to be really good despite not looking very good on paper.

10-20-2010, 04:29 PM	#2
Zapgaze Wizard Mentor Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Vancouver Posts: 555	Latest update (August 3rd): Hello Cubers, The latest update adds both Commander and M12 changes, along with a few other changes here and there. The cube is also now completely resleeved, and I hope to be able to get up pictures of the new sexiness fairly soon. Until then, I hope you enjoy the latest update, and as always, I look forward to hearing your thoughts and comments! Thanks, -Zap __________________ Thanks to Spiderboy4 at High~Light Studios for the AMAZING signature. Last edited by Zapgaze; 08-03-2011 at 05:22 AM.
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10-21-2010, 02:59 AM	#3
eidolon232 Rules Advisor Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Bavaria Posts: 12,110	Hi Zapgaze! Here are the cc results for your list, maybe I have the time for a more detailed response later, but the first things that catches my eye is the high overall casting cost. The gold section is a bit too big and some of the cards that you had to include there are worse and harder to cast than when what you get in the colored sections. The 3 colored cards are even more restrictive and as soon as you have to wait one turn before you cast them, some of them are no longer good enough for the cube (or would you play a 5/4 vanilla for 4?). zapgaze: typos: __________________ eidolon232's cube: 450 cards, unpowered - including DGM Post your cube list \|\| Help me analyze them cube comparison \|\| sort your cube + show curves \|\| functional information tool \|\| free drafting \|\| Rollover card pictures Problems loading the cube comparison thread? - Try this instead
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12-15-2010, 03:56 AM	#4
Zapgaze Wizard Mentor Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Vancouver Posts: 555	Hey guys, check out the Changelog for a big update (December 14th), getting rid of some cards that have not been performing well for new cards to test out! I've also fixed all the typos eidolon pointed out, the entire list should be correct now. Looking forward to comments and general discussion - Zap __________________ Thanks to Spiderboy4 at High~Light Studios for the AMAZING signature.
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12-15-2010, 04:26 AM	#5
Betote Archmage Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 906	What's in and what's out? __________________ My Cube
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12-15-2010, 04:29 AM	#6
Zapgaze Wizard Mentor Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Vancouver Posts: 555	Cards on the left were replaced by cards on the right, hence the arrows! EDIT: Realized I left one change off the list, fixed! Spellbreaker Behemoth --> Deus of Calamity __________________ Thanks to Spiderboy4 at High~Light Studios for the AMAZING signature. Last edited by Zapgaze; 12-15-2010 at 04:35 AM.
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12-15-2010, 04:44 AM	#7
eidolon232 Rules Advisor Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Bavaria Posts: 12,110	//White Saltblast --> Pianna, Nomad Captain: Yeah, 5 mana is way too much for a restrictive sorcery speed removal spell that only trades 1:1 //Blue Ethersworn Adjudicator --> Gilded Drake: the Adjudicator wasn't really a U card anyway Sphinx of Lost Truths --> Misdirection: I don't care about either card, but Misdirection can generate more blow outs Opportunity --> Memory Lapse: as long as there are no creatures on the table, this card ca be just as good as Time Walk //Black Fume Spitter --> Unearth: The 1 drop has been great for us so far Undead Gladiator --> Corpse Dance: while it can be a recurring threat, the 1 toughness doesn't even allow him to attack into Knights and just using him to looter away cards for is too expensive for anything but a reanimator deck that didn't get enough discard outlets. Terror --> Nether Void: powerful card, but for some reason it gets removed from a couple of cubes in the last few weeks //Red Puncture Blast --> Arc Lightning: Arc Trail/ Lightning give red some cheap way to generate CA while still bieng usefull to burn your opponent out Volcanic Fallout --> Arc Trail: Fallout is jsut a bad version of Pyroclasm, since it comes down later, is harder to cast and damages yourself Wildfire --> Words of War: there ave to be better cuts than Wildfire- maybe Incendiary Command, Word of Seizing or the red Akroma. Wildfire is probably the most powerful card for red control decks in the cube. Flame Slash --> Goblin Welder: I still like killing basically any creature with cmc <6 for a single mana (compare this efficiency with Smother) Kumano, Master Yamabushi --> Hell's Thunder: it is funny how the rare version of the same card is worse than Hellspark Elemental at uncommon Destructive Force --> Hellspark Elemental: great aggressive creature, especially if you have a use for the creature before it dies (Skullclamp !) Dragonmaster Outcast --> Jackal Pup: Outcast was useless outside Magus of the Moon --> Ravenous Baboons: MotM is way better in constructed //Green Bellowing Tanglewurm --> Krosan Tusker: very flexible card that gives green instant speed card draw Kamahl, Fist of Krosa --> Carven Caryatid: awesome aggro stopper and if they have to use a 2 drop and a burn spell to deal with your wall, you effectively got a 3:1 and an extra turn out of the deal. Iwamori of the Open Fist --> Caller of the Claw: you don't have to do anything specail to get 4-6 power out of this creature Desert Twister --> Stunted Growth: it is an upgrade, but I still don't care too much about this Three Tragedies / Plow Under hybrid. //Artifacts Ratchet Bomb --> Karn, Silver Golem: looks like a downgrade too me. Karn is nothing but a big wall in combat Staff of Domination --> Precursor Golem: Ok as long as you don't play against red, but this is a card that will certainly table //Multicolored Dimir Guildmage --> Recoil: 4 mana at sorcery speed for +1 CA is not good enough Ghastlord of Fugue --> Wydwen, the Biting Gale: I was never a fan of the HHHHH, since they are so hard to cast and even in a 2c deck they don't profit from artifact mana Wrecking Ball --> Sarkhan the Mad: see Saltblast Call the Skybreaker --> Spellbound Dragon: the Dragon was a lot of fun for us and I would still play it if had another slot Dominus of Fealty --> Suffocating Blast: it sucks a bit that the damage is not optional, but with 8 gold cards in each combination there is not much else that you could play. Uril, the Miststalker --> Rith, the Awakener: I would not play a 3c 6 drop that just dies to Terror Maelstrom Archangel --> Maelstrom Nexus: Nexus is so hard to cast, but you basically can't lose once you untap with this card. //Lands Crystal Quarry --> Grand Coliseum: great fixer Windbrisk Heights --> Ghitu Encampment: increases the thread density for red decks and is easier to use than the Heights edit: Spellbreaker Behemoth --> Deus of Calamity: Deus is hard to cast and easy to kill. I think you are better of with the 4 drop __________________ eidolon232's cube: 450 cards, unpowered - including DGM Post your cube list \|\| Help me analyze them cube comparison \|\| sort your cube + show curves \|\| functional information tool \|\| free drafting \|\| Rollover card pictures Problems loading the cube comparison thread? - Try this instead
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12-15-2010, 08:04 AM	#9
bwian Archmage Overlord Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 2,054	I agree with Eidolon, I think Spellbreaker Behemoth is much better than Deus of Calamity. The all-hybrid cost eliminates some decks from casting it at all and doesn't work with a lot of artifact mana. Uril, the Miststalker is probably the better of the Naya swap as well. __________________ My ~540 Card Unpowered Cube My Cube Blog @theCubeMiser on Twitter
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12-15-2010, 09:18 AM	#10
rantipole Immortal One Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: new jersey Posts: 7,715	Fully agree with eidolon. And, never ever cut Wildfire! Cheers, rant __________________ "If you need me, me and Neil'll be hanging out with the dream king." ---Tori Amos My Cube My EDH Decks: Bosh: I Am Iron Man Karador: Nothing but Critters Thraximundar: Steal & Sacrifice
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12-15-2010, 01:29 PM	#11
Zapgaze Wizard Mentor Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Vancouver Posts: 555	Yay, comments! Fume Spitter --> Unearth: during the 2 months that Fume Spitter was in the cube, it did not see play a single time and was constantly going in the last few picks of each draft. Perhaps the cut in general is a downgrade, but when we do our cube changes, we take draft results and what our playgroup has to say into consideration, and in this case, our playgroup has spoken. Perhaps Unearth will not work out for us either, but the fact was that Fume Spitter needed to be replaced. Wildfire --> Words of War: Wildfire is, personally, one of my favorite red cards in the cube. Unfortunately, it was being given similar treatment to Fume Spitter. I'm hoping that by removing it, the people in our group will begin to miss it, giving me an opportunity to later add it in again to see more play. I'm sad to see this card go, and believe me I understand the cries of outrage from all of you, but at the moment it's for the best. Ratchet Bomb --> Karn, Silver Golem: Perhaps it was me being naive by adding Ratchet Bomb in the first place, considering Powder Keg was cut long ago for seeing no play. Obviously (who would have thought?), the group gave Ratchet Bomb the same treatment. I personally am not a fan of either Powder Keg or Ratchet Bomb, and I'm glad to have the chance to try this card out. Eidolon: From what I understand from your comments, for the most part they are positive, which I'm glad to hear. Some quick hits: Sunblast was only in because the group felt as if White needed another answer to Planeswalkers. Incendiary Command is one of my personal pet cards, and fortunately it sees a ton of play so we're glad to keep it in. The same goes for Word of Seizing, a card that has created some huge blowouts, especially when used on Planeswalkers. Red Akroma is a card that I don't actually like in the cube, but my cube partner insists on keeping it in and it sees enough play for me to not be able to convince him otherwise. Flame Slash felt unnecessary and not what Red decks here wanted, which was damage that hit creatures as well as the face. Stunted Growth has been spectacular since it was added in, the tempo it can generate especially when ramped into by a mana dork or two is just brutal; I'm definitely glad I gave it a shot. Precursor Golem is a card I've been wanting to try out for a while, because 9 power at 5 mana, however conditional, still deserves to be tested out in my opinion. I look forward to seeing how it does in upcoming cubes. The fact that Uril was not seeing play was honestly surprising to me, as a 5/5 troll shroud creature with the equipment in the cube seems like it should perform quite nicely. Since the change around 2 weeks ago, I've seen Rith in play more times than I ever saw Uril in play, and I honestly think it's simply because of the flying. Maybe the cut doesn't make sense, but apparently the group approves With the amount of green ramp in the cube, I'm sure Deus will be seeing play in aggressive Green/Red decks in the near future. and if he doesn't see the play I'm hoping he will, he'll just get the axe for another card in his color combination Too bad I won't get the chance to see someone going turn 3 or 4 deus of calamity, wildfire the next turn! Also, when it comes to mana, Spellbreaker Behemoths 1RGG is not much easier to cast than Deus' HHHHH, and realistically, the both go in the same deck. Deus just comes down a turn later with a much more powerful effect. I think that covers everything. I know some of these cuts seem weird, because the cards being added are worse than what is being cut, or there are better things to cut, but in the end when a card is not being played, no matter how powerful it is, there is no point in keeping it in the cube. There needs to be some way of deciding what to cut when new cards come out, and for us, we judge based on how much play things see. Just a little note: These are changes that have been made to the cube progressively over the past 2 weeks or so. Some of them, like stunted growth, have already been played with, while others like deus of calamity, unearth, or precursor golem, have not. I have included everything in one update because I have just now gotten around to it. Many of these additions have not been tested, but I look forward to playing with every single one of them in the upcoming weeks. Keep in mind that with the proper testing (and trust me, they will be tested throughly :P) any of these cuts may be reversed. Thanks for all the comments everyone, it's really appreciated! When I first posted my cube a while back, the only comment I got was from eidolon. I'm glad to see more response this time around I would also love to hear any suggestions you guys have for cards that could fit into the gold section that we may have overlooked! __________________ Thanks to Spiderboy4 at High~Light Studios for the AMAZING signature. Last edited by Zapgaze; 12-15-2010 at 01:38 PM.
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12-15-2010, 01:39 PM	#12
wtwlf123 Cube Enthusiast Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 27,488	If you've never once cast Fume Spitter, how can you decide to cut it? __________________ My 450 Card Powered Cube My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy" My Store - Lots of pimped Cube & EDH cards for sale! My Set (P)review #5 - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from DGM!
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12-15-2010, 01:46 PM	#13
tomchaps Archmage Overlord Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Kensington, CA Posts: 1,361	How does Carven Caryatid play? I've not seen it in a cube before, and it looks like an interesting Wall of Blossomsvariant. __________________ My budget cube My $40 MTGO cube
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