Hello all, I'm not sure if I'm qualified to even be doing this but I've noticed a number of knight decks in the forum and no primer to help them out. In terms of formating and adding images I may need a bit of help on that. Also, not 100% on the look of the final product. Really I'm here just to throw this out to the public and get the ball rolling.
Possible Quotes: "The black knight always triumphs!" (Monty Python)
“And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!” (Mark Twain)
“A true knight is fuller of bravery in the midst, than in the beginning of danger.” (Sir Phillip Sydney)
History:
Knights made their appearance in ABU in the form of the white knight, black knight and Northern Paladin. The white and black knights to this day have been reprinted many times and can be considered for a budget knight deck.
Knights typically have been lower casting cost creatures. Most are mono-white though they are found in all colours. Most knights play best in an aggro-style deck.
The general abilities of knights have undergone some variety as well. During ice age knights were generally given the ability of banding. During the Mirage block this was generally changed to a flanking ability.
(not sure if there is a way to link what banding & flanking do in the same way you wrap card tags)
I will be completing a deck section, budget section, as well as helpful cards both budget and non-budget as well in the next day or so. Please bear with me until then. In terms of decks I would like some examples if people can post them. Ideally I'd like to find a non-budget white mono (I will post mine), a budget mono-white, and a white green. If I could find an aggro and non aggro version of each that would be better!! As these seem to be the most common types I guess thats enough. If there are any other knight decks people feel should be included please post them.
I think there was actually a Legacy knight deck floating around somewhere that you might want to look at for some ideas as, in my opinion, the list posted looks like it could use a little bit of work as it has: No form of card advantage, singletons, lots of "winless" redundancy with the Eldrazi Monument (it costs 5 mana, requires you to sac creatures and gives minimal bonuses considering that Knight Exemplar gives you the indestructable clause anyways), Scroll Rack as a singleton without abusing Land Tax which makes Scroll Rack look somewhat pointless in the first place.
Non-budget-wise, Entomb and Buried Alive are stupid-good for a Haakon build. They make way for tons of silver bullets, reduce the number of Haakon/Lords/Nameless Inversion/Crib Swap needed in the deck, and guarantee you can get Haakon dead early in the game.
Mercenary Knight can play a similar role, but I found him to be very underwhelming.
2 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge (Deck's theme, two just in case one gets exiled) 3 Knight Exemplar (Three allows you to have two in play, even if one gets exiled somehow) 2 Kinsbaile Cavalier (Two for the same reason as above, stupid powerful) 2 Mirror Entity (See Kinsbaile Cavalier) 2 Crib Swap (Kills any targetable creature for 2W, over and over) 2 Nameless Inversion (A machine gun. With Crib Sawp, exiles creatures 3WB) 4 Entomb (Finds Haakon, Crib Swap, and Nameless Inversion first, then fishes out bullets) 4 Buried Alive (Insane card advantage. Gets Haakon and some lords in the bin) 19 Silver Bullets (More for fun than for utility)
Perhaps I should have waited to post this. I do plan to include card explanations sooner rather than later... just a lot of work to do one of these and I don't have all that much time in one sitting. As I stated I plan to include a helpful card section with non-creature cards. Still getting to that though so thanks for the input.
Also, I would love to include reasons why the card is there. Examples??? Also, if you suggest a card please give the reasons why with it. That will help me out greatly
My knowledge of non-white based knight decks is limited so thank you sigismond for the input. I get nothing on silver bullets though
The wrath of god and the eldrazi monument are only in there in case the initial aggro fails. Never hurts to have a back up plan. Again though, that is just what I have in my deck. If people think it is a poor example of mono-white aggro I welcome others. Also, scroll rack is there just to help my meta. I guess I can remove them as putting it what I included for my meta really only matters to me. They really aren't pure aggro I guess. I retooled the deck to a more generic version of white aggro. Does this seem like a good example?
Thanks for all the imput though. Keep it coming. Will help a lot in the end
Just curious, are there any non-creature cards that specifically target knights? (ie an enchantment that helps just knights, equipment or artifacts that help just knights, etc?)
Honor the Pure is fine, since it only costs two and it has a nice effect. Light from Within is a little overkill though. Having too many of these enchantments isn't good because they aren't threats by themselves. If the opponent is running removal or you get a bad draw, they hurt a lot. And considering Light from within costs 4 it's really not worth it. Same with Door of Destinies and Coat of Arms.
I see you took out Wrath, Eldrazi and Scroll Rack, which is good. Wrath and eldrazi are poor plan Bs because they tend to hurt you more than they help, and are dead cards a lot of the time. There should be absolutely no reason for you to run it, period, even with cute tricks like Wrath + Exemplar. I also can't see how Scroll Rack helps you. You have nothing to abuse it with, and I can't see how it would even be a meta choice.
Take Matchbox 20's suggestions. Those are good.
Finally, I have to ask. Is a knight primer really needed? Knights aren't really that big, nor are they that competitive, especially when there isn't even a WW primer up yet.
I play mostly multiplayer games against a fair number of different style decks. Two of them are nasty anti-creature decks as well as a nasty soft-lock deck. The three cards in question are the answer to these situations. Whether you understand or not they do help more than just pure aggro.
Anyway. I'm not lookin to justify having them in my deck. Just looking for a "textbook" mono-white aggro. Hense why I removed them. Light from within just seemed generic and helpful in different situations. If anyone has suggestions please do tell.
As to the need for a knight primer, I agree they may not be a large tribe. I do seem to see roughly 1-2 new knight deck threads per week. Perhaps a primer will help these people. The real question should be is there any harm done in having a knight primer? As to making a WW primer please make one if you feel the need for one. Also, whether you feel they are competitive or not this is a CASUAL forum. Some people do enjoy playing cards that may not win you the game right away. This has to be my biggest problem with people on this forum is that if the cards/deck isn't the best ever and doesn't win by turn 5 they would rather wipe their arse with it than have any decent input.
Edit: just saw that the mods would like you to contact them about making a primer. I will contact one and find out from them if they would like me to continue
I feel like a Knight primer is extremely beneficial because there are always new knights coming out, and people have traditionally made WW decks based solely off knights. Scroll Rack is important if you run Land Tax, since it gives you massive card advantage.
Looks like a great start :). I won't bag on ya' for not have a "complete" primer...cuz its not, its a good start and you're seeking input.
Consider adding a section for "support" to include alot of the cards recommdned above.
Knighthood should be included as a fun casual option for more flanking builds, as well as Jabari's Banner to give extra flanking.
Are you planning on having a section for the flanking "sub-type", or just including all "knight types" in one? You could probably note in the card descriptions for those knghts as good for flanking, and then give a deck list of two of the flanking deck(s). I've designed an extreme budget one if you'd like a link/list
Honor the Pure is fine, since it only costs two and it has a nice effect. Light from Within is a little overkill though. Having too many of these enchantments isn't good because they aren't threats by themselves. If the opponent is running removal or you get a bad draw, they hurt a lot.
Finally, I have to ask. Is a knight primer really needed? Knights aren't really that big, nor are they that competitive, especially when there isn't even a WW primer up yet.
1) Yes, I think having a Knight Primer is a great idea. Thanks for starting one! Keep in mind that this is a Casual Forum. Yes, knights might not be too competitive now but they can be fun to play...which is really the point in multiplayer casual.
2) As for Light from Within...I think it does work well with Knights since most of the good ones have a cc of WW so you're really getting +2/+2 most of the time out of it.
As an example, you really only need ONE Sigiled Paladin with Light from within already in play to get a 5/5 First Striker when attacking!
Glorious Anthems, Crusades work too although I realize that Crusade is "technically" not as good of a card as some of the others. Still if you want to build a deck with flavor and theme then it doesn't get any better than Crusading Knights!
3) I see nothing wrong with trying to combo Day of Judgements/Wrath of God with Knight Exemplar. Sounds like strong foundation for an fun casual "Indestructible" Knight Deck to me.
Both of them make use of an equipment toolbox (because I like equipments). Sun titan is there as a late game option and also since most knights cost 3. I think you should definitely include some creatures and stuff that aren't knights but have good synergy with most of them anyways.
With the land disruption Matchbox mentioned, I can see the grounds for a stax-type knight deck. You could also include mana tithe and armageddon along with some artifact mana, but this might end up moving too far away from knights since knights generally seem to be about beating face. It's still something some people might want to consider so I'm just throwing this out there.
Aether vial seems like it can work well with some land disruption/destruction since most knights cost 2-3 mana.
You should definitely bring up planeswalkers too, maybe some specific knights they work well with. Gideon Jura lets you force your opponent's creatures crashing into your knights, which generally tend to have first strike. Elspeth, knight-errant makes tokens which you can sac to knight-captain of eos. Ajani Goldmane is just good in general for WW. With knight of meadowgrain you can end up building up a lot of life and a fat avatar.
1) Yes, I think having a Knight Primer is a great idea. Thanks for starting one! Keep in mind that this is a Casual Forum. Yes, knights might not be too competitive now but they can be fun to play...which is really the point in multiplayer casual.
Just because a deck is "fun to play" doesn't mean it needs a primer for it. The problem with having a Knight primer is it opens the door for just about every other tribal group to have a primer. What about Soldiers, Kithkin, elemental, etc?
2) As for Light from Within...I think it does work well with Knights since most of the good ones have a cc of WW so you're really getting +2/+2 most of the time out of it.
As an example, you really only need ONE Sigiled Paladin with Light from within already in play to get a 5/5 First Striker when attacking!
Win more. It does nothing on its own and the +2/+2 is completely unneeded.
Glorious Anthems, Crusades work too although I realize that Crusade is "technically" not as good of a card as some of the others. Still if you want to build a deck with flavor and theme then it doesn't get any better than Crusading Knights!
This is a primer. It's supposed to go over what works best and what doesn't. If you want to play your fun, flavorful knight deck that's fine but I don't see it being helpful in a primer.
3) I see nothing wrong with trying to combo Day of Judgements/Wrath of God with Knight Exemplar. Sounds like strong foundation for an fun casual "Indestructible" Knight Deck to me.
Because running it as a 1x is pretty much useless. And again, this is about what works best, not trying to find cute, fun combos to play with.
Just because a deck is "fun to play" doesn't mean it needs a primer for it. The problem with having a Knight primer is it opens the door for just about every other tribal group to have a primer. What about Soldiers, Kithkin, elemental, etc?
Win more. It does nothing on its own and the +2/+2 is completely unneeded.
This is a primer. It's supposed to go over what works best and what doesn't. If you want to play your fun, flavorful knight deck that's fine but I don't see it being helpful in a primer.
Because running it as a 1x is pretty much useless. And again, this is about what works best, not trying to find cute, fun combos to play with.
But isn't that the idea of casual? It's not about making the most powerful decks, or there would be Raffinity and Perfect Storm and DDT primers here. Casual decks are about a balance of strength and fun. Competitive decks are about pure optimization and only winning.
If there's a pupular casual archetype, why shouldn't there be a primer for it? Hell, there's an angel primer. And you're worried about Knights being an uncommon tribe?
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But isn't that the idea of casual? It's not about making the most powerful decks, or there would be Raffinity and Perfect Storm and DDT primers here. Casual decks are about a balance of strength and fun. Competitive decks are about pure optimization and only winning.
If there's a pupular casual archetype, why shouldn't there be a primer for it? Hell, there's an angel primer. And you're worried about Knights being an uncommon tribe?
If people think Knights deserves a primer then that's fine. I was simply asking if it's really necessary.
Yeah casual is about fun, but for a primer it should still have some sense of competitiveness, and simply list a few not as competitive options. For a sample decklist, it shouldn't use suboptimal cards like Light from Within.
Still waiting on input from a mod if they would like me to continue making this. I am aware this is VERY bare boned. To date all I have done is creatures.
If I am given the go ahead I would like to add:
- aggro style decks (we have one already)
- non aggro style decks
- a black based knight deck (such as the example already in the thread)
- ideally a budget/non-budget version of each
- beneficial artifacts
- beneficial enchantments
- beneficial lands
- beneficial spells
- non-knight beneficial creatures
- explanations for each
also if anyone has any cool images related to knights please do post them. If I'm missing anything else on my to add list let me know
Again. This is all assuming the mods want me to continue
No, actually, Caspid is quite right. Wrath of God should never, ever, ever be in an aggro deck. Any removal at all screws up your plans with the Exemplar, period, and ALL good decks run removal.
My friend played Knights + Wrath, Exemplar included. He took it out of the deck once he never actually got to keep his creatures in any games he played. He'd cast Wrath, and with it on the stack, we'd kill his Exemplar. This went on for about a month. Hell, he'd cast a second Exemplar thinking he'd finally get it to work- Then with the second Exemplar on the stack, the first would get hit by a Lightning Bolt. Worse yet, the person playing the Wrath commonly doesn't hold creatures back in his hand because they're expecting to lose only two cards in this exchange (Wrath and the Exemplar), but a single Terror, Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt or anything else makes that exchange laughable. Even worse than that, the opponents will begin to hold creatures back so that the Wraths lose effectiveness to begin with. So, if I'M holding back my Tombstalker and you spent every creature in your hand because you thought you could get to keep them, who do you suppose will recover faster from the Wrath of God? That's another flaw (a player issue) with playing Wrath of God in an aggro deck with a quirky combo.
So, let's go over why this is bad, point-by-point:
A) It's an easily interrupted combo with no guarantee of succeeding against cards that all decks played against should already have (removal).
B) You have no guarantee of drawing an Exemplar (a 33% chance in the starting hand, so it only increases to 66% towards turn 7. That means around once in every three games, you'll draw a Wrath of God and not be able to cast it. Having dead cards in hand is like giving the opponent a handicap, and shouldn't be encouraged by deckbuilders).
C) If it does, in fact, work once, don't expect it to work with the same playgroup again.
D) Opponents faced with Wrath of Gods will hold back their most valuable creatures, and force you to sweep against their others so they can recover from a Wrath quite quickly. This oftentimes puts the Knight player in danger if the one-sided sweep was more of a sham than most products that were sold by Billy Mays.
E) There are cards that let you win faster, and are much more consistent.
Speaking of faster, more consistent cards, I know of one:
For anything but the most narrow and rare situations, Brave the Elements will, creature for creature, kill the opponent faster than casting a Wrath and losing your Exemplar will. Note that you keep the +1/+1 bonus on attacking creatures with Brave the Elements, therefore there's a solid edge on the latter card versus the former (you'll need to attack less, or have the flexibility for fewer attacking creatures with Brave the Elements. This basically means it lets you play through removal and still win, if you choose to use BtE to grant protection for the killing blow). Not to mention, BtE is incredibly flexible and can save your creatures from damage sweepers (Firespout, Pyroclasm) and spot removal.
Wrath of God has no place in an aggro deck. It's four mana, which is entirely too high of a casting cost, and it leads to the Knight player screwing himself/herself way too often.
Don't assume all of your opponents are stupid, because that's the largest availability for the Wrath trick to work. I'd dare say that if it works the first time, it will never work in that playgroup ever again, because people will watch for it and make you waste all of your cards and creatures.
Don't assume all of your opponents are stupid, because that's the largest availability for the Wrath trick to work. I'd dare say that if it works the first time, it will never work in that playgroup ever again, because people will watch for it and make you waste all of your cards and creatures.
Now I really want to put one as a one-of in my Haakon deck. Worst case-scenario everybody loses everything, then I lose three life and replay my graveyard.
(Haakon does stupid things.)
But I agree with you, in a non-Haakon knight deck it's a bad card unless you can absolutely guarantee your position.
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Now I really want to put one as a one-of in my Haakon deck. Worst case-scenario everybody loses everything, then I lose three life and replay my graveyard.
(Haakon does stupid things.)
But I agree with you, in a non-Haakon knight deck it's a bad card unless you can absolutely guarantee your position.
Actually, I can agree there. Haakon gives a quick-and-easy manner to recover from a botched Wrath faster than the opponent, whether they hold cards back or not (besides that, Brave the Elements would not be the faster option, there, as it only works for white creatures).
My post was mostly in reference to all of the mono-white and white/green Knight decks. Y'know, those ones we had a huge influx of on these boards immediately before and well after M11 released? Yeah, those Knight decks would play Wraths and Day of Judgment like it was no big thing, even though that plan has the clear (and easy) option to backfire.
I just wanted to hit that line of thought before it got too far along (and there's 10 different mono white Knight decks all using Day of Judgment or Rout or something) and explain, logically, why it might be a better idea to think of a different card to include. Haakon, though? That gives you two clear options of recovering from a botched Wrath, which would actually make it not so bad (your chances of drawing one or the other and a sweeper would be in the 80% range, actually, which is pretty solid. The number goes up to 90%+ once you count Buried Alive and other 'graveyard tutors', so it's fairly consistent).
So, Haakon: Yes, Wrath/Damnation can be awesome and it's very easy to recover (because then your opponent would need to remove your Exemplar, then exile Haakon. The opposing deck, unless lucky, would be required to run at least 8 removal spells, some of which being either Incinerate (or similar) or white (Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, etc.)).
Average white or white/green Knight deck: Not so much. Can turn to ass quite quickly.
Possible Quotes:
"The black knight always triumphs!" (Monty Python)
“And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!” (Mark Twain)
“A true knight is fuller of bravery in the midst, than in the beginning of danger.” (Sir Phillip Sydney)
History:
Knights typically have been lower casting cost creatures. Most are mono-white though they are found in all colours. Most knights play best in an aggro-style deck.
The general abilities of knights have undergone some variety as well. During ice age knights were generally given the ability of banding. During the Mirage block this was generally changed to a flanking ability.
(not sure if there is a way to link what banding & flanking do in the same way you wrap card tags)
Notable Knights
White:
2cc:
3cc:
4cc:
5cc:
Black:
2cc:
3cc:
4cc:
5cc: N/A
Green: N/A
Red:
2cc: Blood Knight
3cc:
4cc: Márton Stromgald
5cc: N/A
Blue:
2cc: N/A
3cc: Court Hussar
4cc: N/A
5cc: Ethersworn Adjudicator
Multi/Duel-Coloured: (ex. R/W = Can be paid with Red or White R&W = Requires both)
1cc: N/A
2cc:Steward of Valeron W&G
Knotvine Paladin W& G
3cc:Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers W/G
Knight of the Reliquary W&G
Stillmoon Cavalier W/B
Skyknight Legionnaire R&W
4cc: Ashenmoor Liege R/B
Glen Elendra Liege U/B
Boartusk Liege G/R
Rafiq of the Many G&W&U
Wilt-Leaf Liege G/W
Knight of New Alara G&W
5cc:Kulrath Knight R/B
Juniper Order Ranger G&W
Sky Hussar W&U
I will be completing a deck section, budget section, as well as helpful cards both budget and non-budget as well in the next day or so. Please bear with me until then. In terms of decks I would like some examples if people can post them. Ideally I'd like to find a non-budget white mono (I will post mine), a budget mono-white, and a white green. If I could find an aggro and non aggro version of each that would be better!! As these seem to be the most common types I guess thats enough. If there are any other knight decks people feel should be included please post them.
My Mono White Knight Aggro
2x Knight of the Holy Nimbus
2x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Knight of the Meadowgrain
3x Paladin en-Vec
4x Knight Exemplar
4x Kinsbaile Cavalier
4x Student of Warfare
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Brave the Elements
Enchantments
4x Honor of the Pure
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Light from Within
22x Plains
The Mimeoplasm
Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Rhys the Redeemed
Merieke Ri Berit
Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Cromat Wurm Tribal
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Looking for Green friendly EDH players/groups in the Toronto area. PM me if this is you.
also add cards that help knight decks out (removal, pump, etc)
I agree with this.
Cards that should be, without question, mentioned if we're talking non-budget and (presumably) mono-W:
Land Tax (Massive Card Advantage; Legacy Banned)
Oblivion Ring
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Aura of Silence (Probably more of a sideboard card)
Artifacts that should be mentioned, again, non-budget, include:
Aether Vial
Umezawa's Jitte
Skullclamp (Massive Card Advantage; Legacy Banned)
Sword of Fire and Ice (Maybe)
Sword of Light and Shadow (Again, maybe)
And lastly, depending on the build, land wise you could probably work some/all of the following in for a nice little disruption package:
Wasteland
Strip Mine (Vintage Restricted, Legacy Banned)
Rishadan Port
Flagstones of Trokair
Kor Haven
I think there was actually a Legacy knight deck floating around somewhere that you might want to look at for some ideas as, in my opinion, the list posted looks like it could use a little bit of work as it has:
No form of card advantage, singletons, lots of "winless" redundancy with the Eldrazi Monument (it costs 5 mana, requires you to sac creatures and gives minimal bonuses considering that Knight Exemplar gives you the indestructable clause anyways), Scroll Rack as a singleton without abusing Land Tax which makes Scroll Rack look somewhat pointless in the first place.
Not trying to hate on you, just some suggestions.
Legacy:
WGMaverickWG
UMerfolkU
WStaxW
XRaffinityX
BRGoblins RB
RBUTESRBU
UGW Countersliver UGW
UB Dredge UB
U W CounterThopter U W
"Casual:"
BVampiresB
WMWCW
GElfdraziG
WWhite WeenieW
BWClericsBW
UGMadnessUG
UBPsychatogUB
GWAstral SlideGW
Mercenary Knight can play a similar role, but I found him to be very underwhelming.
Stromgald Cabal and Order of the Sacred Torch can play lockdown against BW decks. Sworn Defender is nice if you're worried about large creatures crashing past you. Knight of Dawn is the only knight that doesn't afraid of GU decks.
My build is something like this:
3 Knight Exemplar (Three allows you to have two in play, even if one gets exiled somehow)
2 Kinsbaile Cavalier (Two for the same reason as above, stupid powerful)
2 Mirror Entity (See Kinsbaile Cavalier)
2 Crib Swap (Kills any targetable creature for 2W, over and over)
2 Nameless Inversion (A machine gun. With Crib Sawp, exiles creatures 3WB)
4 Entomb (Finds Haakon, Crib Swap, and Nameless Inversion first, then fishes out bullets)
4 Buried Alive (Insane card advantage. Gets Haakon and some lords in the bin)
19 Silver Bullets (More for fun than for utility)
Legacy Gobbyboogers R
Knight Exemplar begs to disagree.
Also, I would love to include reasons why the card is there. Examples??? Also, if you suggest a card please give the reasons why with it. That will help me out greatly
My knowledge of non-white based knight decks is limited so thank you sigismond for the input. I get nothing on silver bullets though
The wrath of god and the eldrazi monument are only in there in case the initial aggro fails. Never hurts to have a back up plan. Again though, that is just what I have in my deck. If people think it is a poor example of mono-white aggro I welcome others. Also, scroll rack is there just to help my meta. I guess I can remove them as putting it what I included for my meta really only matters to me. They really aren't pure aggro I guess. I retooled the deck to a more generic version of white aggro. Does this seem like a good example?
Thanks for all the imput though. Keep it coming. Will help a lot in the end
The Mimeoplasm
Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Rhys the Redeemed
Merieke Ri Berit
Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Cromat Wurm Tribal
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Looking for Green friendly EDH players/groups in the Toronto area. PM me if this is you.
Door of Destinies and Coat of Arms come to mind.
From the other end of the playing field there are always cards like An-Zerrin Ruins
The Mimeoplasm
Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Rhys the Redeemed
Merieke Ri Berit
Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Cromat Wurm Tribal
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Looking for Green friendly EDH players/groups in the Toronto area. PM me if this is you.
I see you took out Wrath, Eldrazi and Scroll Rack, which is good. Wrath and eldrazi are poor plan Bs because they tend to hurt you more than they help, and are dead cards a lot of the time. There should be absolutely no reason for you to run it, period, even with cute tricks like Wrath + Exemplar. I also can't see how Scroll Rack helps you. You have nothing to abuse it with, and I can't see how it would even be a meta choice.
Take Matchbox 20's suggestions. Those are good.
Finally, I have to ask. Is a knight primer really needed? Knights aren't really that big, nor are they that competitive, especially when there isn't even a WW primer up yet.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
Anyway. I'm not lookin to justify having them in my deck. Just looking for a "textbook" mono-white aggro. Hense why I removed them. Light from within just seemed generic and helpful in different situations. If anyone has suggestions please do tell.
As to the need for a knight primer, I agree they may not be a large tribe. I do seem to see roughly 1-2 new knight deck threads per week. Perhaps a primer will help these people. The real question should be is there any harm done in having a knight primer? As to making a WW primer please make one if you feel the need for one. Also, whether you feel they are competitive or not this is a CASUAL forum. Some people do enjoy playing cards that may not win you the game right away. This has to be my biggest problem with people on this forum is that if the cards/deck isn't the best ever and doesn't win by turn 5 they would rather wipe their arse with it than have any decent input.
Edit: just saw that the mods would like you to contact them about making a primer. I will contact one and find out from them if they would like me to continue
The Mimeoplasm
Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Rhys the Redeemed
Merieke Ri Berit
Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Cromat Wurm Tribal
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Looking for Green friendly EDH players/groups in the Toronto area. PM me if this is you.
Looks like a great start :). I won't bag on ya' for not have a "complete" primer...cuz its not, its a good start and you're seeking input.
Consider adding a section for "support" to include alot of the cards recommdned above.
Knighthood should be included as a fun casual option for more flanking builds, as well as Jabari's Banner to give extra flanking.
Are you planning on having a section for the flanking "sub-type", or just including all "knight types" in one? You could probably note in the card descriptions for those knghts as good for flanking, and then give a deck list of two of the flanking deck(s). I've designed an extreme budget one if you'd like a link/list
DRum
Old school group, sometimes more beer than cards. Revised thru Tempest block (and a little of Urza), sorry if I don't know all the new cards
Ye' Olde Schoole Casual Decks: BUReanimate -- GRAggro -- BWPestilence -- G10-land Stompy -- GRElfball -- GWEnchantress -- RAnkh Sligh -- BDiscard -- MUC "Draw-go" -- BRSuicide -- UWSkies -- UHigh Tide Mill -- WWeenie -- UMutated Bombers -- URThe great land-toss -- UB Molasass
1) Yes, I think having a Knight Primer is a great idea. Thanks for starting one! Keep in mind that this is a Casual Forum. Yes, knights might not be too competitive now but they can be fun to play...which is really the point in multiplayer casual.
2) As for Light from Within...I think it does work well with Knights since most of the good ones have a cc of WW so you're really getting +2/+2 most of the time out of it.
As an example, you really only need ONE Sigiled Paladin with Light from within already in play to get a 5/5 First Striker when attacking!
Glorious Anthems, Crusades work too although I realize that Crusade is "technically" not as good of a card as some of the others. Still if you want to build a deck with flavor and theme then it doesn't get any better than Crusading Knights!
3) I see nothing wrong with trying to combo Day of Judgements/Wrath of God with Knight Exemplar. Sounds like strong foundation for an fun casual "Indestructible" Knight Deck to me.
S
My Trade Binder...come take a look!
4 knight of the white orchid
3 stoneforge mystic
4 knight of the reliquary
4 knight exemplar
2 sun titan
3 oblivion ring
1 behemoth sledge
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
1 umezawa's jitte
4 wildfield borderpost
2 stirring wildwood
4 temple garden
2 forest
10 plains
2 sejiri steppe
1 kor haven
2 stoneforge mystic
4 knight of the white orchid
4 knight of meadowgrain
4 knight exemplar
2 sun titan
4 brave the elements
3 honor of the pure
3 oblivion ring
1 loxodon warhammer
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
1 basilisk collar
1 emeria, the sky ruin
Both of them make use of an equipment toolbox (because I like equipments). Sun titan is there as a late game option and also since most knights cost 3. I think you should definitely include some creatures and stuff that aren't knights but have good synergy with most of them anyways.
With the land disruption Matchbox mentioned, I can see the grounds for a stax-type knight deck. You could also include mana tithe and armageddon along with some artifact mana, but this might end up moving too far away from knights since knights generally seem to be about beating face. It's still something some people might want to consider so I'm just throwing this out there.
Aether vial seems like it can work well with some land disruption/destruction since most knights cost 2-3 mana.
You should definitely bring up planeswalkers too, maybe some specific knights they work well with.
Gideon Jura lets you force your opponent's creatures crashing into your knights, which generally tend to have first strike.
Elspeth, knight-errant makes tokens which you can sac to knight-captain of eos.
Ajani Goldmane is just good in general for WW. With knight of meadowgrain you can end up building up a lot of life and a fat avatar.
Win more. It does nothing on its own and the +2/+2 is completely unneeded.
This is a primer. It's supposed to go over what works best and what doesn't. If you want to play your fun, flavorful knight deck that's fine but I don't see it being helpful in a primer.
Because running it as a 1x is pretty much useless. And again, this is about what works best, not trying to find cute, fun combos to play with.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
But isn't that the idea of casual? It's not about making the most powerful decks, or there would be Raffinity and Perfect Storm and DDT primers here. Casual decks are about a balance of strength and fun. Competitive decks are about pure optimization and only winning.
If there's a pupular casual archetype, why shouldn't there be a primer for it? Hell, there's an angel primer. And you're worried about Knights being an uncommon tribe?
Yeah casual is about fun, but for a primer it should still have some sense of competitiveness, and simply list a few not as competitive options. For a sample decklist, it shouldn't use suboptimal cards like Light from Within.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
If I am given the go ahead I would like to add:
- aggro style decks (we have one already)
- non aggro style decks
- a black based knight deck (such as the example already in the thread)
- ideally a budget/non-budget version of each
- beneficial artifacts
- beneficial enchantments
- beneficial lands
- beneficial spells
- non-knight beneficial creatures
- explanations for each
also if anyone has any cool images related to knights please do post them. If I'm missing anything else on my to add list let me know
Again. This is all assuming the mods want me to continue
The Mimeoplasm
Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Rhys the Redeemed
Merieke Ri Berit
Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Cromat Wurm Tribal
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Looking for Green friendly EDH players/groups in the Toronto area. PM me if this is you.
No, actually, Caspid is quite right. Wrath of God should never, ever, ever be in an aggro deck. Any removal at all screws up your plans with the Exemplar, period, and ALL good decks run removal.
My friend played Knights + Wrath, Exemplar included. He took it out of the deck once he never actually got to keep his creatures in any games he played. He'd cast Wrath, and with it on the stack, we'd kill his Exemplar. This went on for about a month. Hell, he'd cast a second Exemplar thinking he'd finally get it to work- Then with the second Exemplar on the stack, the first would get hit by a Lightning Bolt. Worse yet, the person playing the Wrath commonly doesn't hold creatures back in his hand because they're expecting to lose only two cards in this exchange (Wrath and the Exemplar), but a single Terror, Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt or anything else makes that exchange laughable. Even worse than that, the opponents will begin to hold creatures back so that the Wraths lose effectiveness to begin with. So, if I'M holding back my Tombstalker and you spent every creature in your hand because you thought you could get to keep them, who do you suppose will recover faster from the Wrath of God? That's another flaw (a player issue) with playing Wrath of God in an aggro deck with a quirky combo.
So, let's go over why this is bad, point-by-point:
A) It's an easily interrupted combo with no guarantee of succeeding against cards that all decks played against should already have (removal).
B) You have no guarantee of drawing an Exemplar (a 33% chance in the starting hand, so it only increases to 66% towards turn 7. That means around once in every three games, you'll draw a Wrath of God and not be able to cast it. Having dead cards in hand is like giving the opponent a handicap, and shouldn't be encouraged by deckbuilders).
C) If it does, in fact, work once, don't expect it to work with the same playgroup again.
D) Opponents faced with Wrath of Gods will hold back their most valuable creatures, and force you to sweep against their others so they can recover from a Wrath quite quickly. This oftentimes puts the Knight player in danger if the one-sided sweep was more of a sham than most products that were sold by Billy Mays.
E) There are cards that let you win faster, and are much more consistent.
Speaking of faster, more consistent cards, I know of one:
For anything but the most narrow and rare situations, Brave the Elements will, creature for creature, kill the opponent faster than casting a Wrath and losing your Exemplar will. Note that you keep the +1/+1 bonus on attacking creatures with Brave the Elements, therefore there's a solid edge on the latter card versus the former (you'll need to attack less, or have the flexibility for fewer attacking creatures with Brave the Elements. This basically means it lets you play through removal and still win, if you choose to use BtE to grant protection for the killing blow). Not to mention, BtE is incredibly flexible and can save your creatures from damage sweepers (Firespout, Pyroclasm) and spot removal.
Wrath of God has no place in an aggro deck. It's four mana, which is entirely too high of a casting cost, and it leads to the Knight player screwing himself/herself way too often.
Don't assume all of your opponents are stupid, because that's the largest availability for the Wrath trick to work. I'd dare say that if it works the first time, it will never work in that playgroup ever again, because people will watch for it and make you waste all of your cards and creatures.
Sig and Avatar drawn by me.
Now I really want to put one as a one-of in my Haakon deck. Worst case-scenario everybody loses everything, then I lose three life and replay my graveyard.
(Haakon does stupid things.)
But I agree with you, in a non-Haakon knight deck it's a bad card unless you can absolutely guarantee your position.
Actually, I can agree there. Haakon gives a quick-and-easy manner to recover from a botched Wrath faster than the opponent, whether they hold cards back or not (besides that, Brave the Elements would not be the faster option, there, as it only works for white creatures).
My post was mostly in reference to all of the mono-white and white/green Knight decks. Y'know, those ones we had a huge influx of on these boards immediately before and well after M11 released? Yeah, those Knight decks would play Wraths and Day of Judgment like it was no big thing, even though that plan has the clear (and easy) option to backfire.
I just wanted to hit that line of thought before it got too far along (and there's 10 different mono white Knight decks all using Day of Judgment or Rout or something) and explain, logically, why it might be a better idea to think of a different card to include. Haakon, though? That gives you two clear options of recovering from a botched Wrath, which would actually make it not so bad (your chances of drawing one or the other and a sweeper would be in the 80% range, actually, which is pretty solid. The number goes up to 90%+ once you count Buried Alive and other 'graveyard tutors', so it's fairly consistent).
So, Haakon: Yes, Wrath/Damnation can be awesome and it's very easy to recover (because then your opponent would need to remove your Exemplar, then exile Haakon. The opposing deck, unless lucky, would be required to run at least 8 removal spells, some of which being either Incinerate (or similar) or white (Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, etc.)).
Average white or white/green Knight deck: Not so much. Can turn to ass quite quickly.
Sig and Avatar drawn by me.
I'll just slink out now before the rest of the thread becomes entirely Spike-ified.