just putting this idea out there:
Play a thousand-year elixir and a kuldotha forgemaster saccing the forgemaster with 2 other artifacts to find a sharuum the hegemon returning the forgemaster to find another sharuum creating an infinite loop of sharuums entering the battlefield and dieing from the legends rule. This can be taken advantage of by glaze fiend, glassdust hulk or soul warden
EDIT: or you could draw yur whole deck with river kelpie or get infinite mana with pawn of ulamog
Why not just play Master Transmuter so you can just play out a strong threat like Inkwell Leviathan? I think the cost on Forgemaster is very tough to deal with.
do you mean the sacrifice cost or the mana cost? the mana cost is functionally the same as the transmuter if you want to use either that turn.
An inkwell leviathan (while being an extremely powerful threat) will still take three turns to win in which time you could lose the game while this has the ability to win the game on the spot, make it nigh unloseable or search up an inkwell if need be.
do you mean the sacrifice cost or the mana cost? the mana cost is functionally the same as the transmuter if you want to use either that turn.
An inkwell leviathan (while being an extremely powerful threat) will still take three turns to win in which time you could lose the game while this has the ability to win the game on the spot, make it nigh unloseable or search up an inkwell if need be.
The sacrifice cost I mean. Your combo requires 4 artifacts as is and the amount of removal in this format would probably make it difficult to play a cost intensive combo.
I think you could easily run both tbh.
Also you should probably be running Mindslaver and Sanctum Gargoyle to hard lock someone. In fact, for 5UU a turn and something like Everflowing Chalice, you can get infinite turns. Forgemaster could easily fetch up the combo as well.
could you explain how that would work? I mean the mindslaver combo. I know of mindslaver and prototype portal which gives you infinite for 10 per turn but that seems really expensive
could you explain how that would work? I mean the mindslaver combo. I know of mindslaver and prototype portal which gives you infinite for 10 per turn but that seems really expensive
Of course. With Master Transmuter, Thousand-Year Elixir and Everflowing Chalice on the board:
1) Bounce Chalice to put Mindslaver down (U)
2) Activate Mindslaver (4U)
3) Untap Transmuter with Elixir (5U)
4) Replay Chalice
5) Bounce Chalice to put Sanctum Gargoyle down (5UU)
6) Return Mindslaver to your hand
7) On your next turn, untap and bounce Sanctum Gargoyle to replay Mindslaver.
Alternatively, you could use Forgemaster with enough artifacts down to fetch a missing piece or Tezzeret or Voltaic Key to untap Transmuter. In addition, cards like Palladium Myr and Voltaic Key can generate even more mana to fuel this. A game like:
Turn 1: Land
Turn 2: Land, Chalice for 2
Turn 3: Land, Elixir
Turn 4: Land, Palladium Myr, Use Myr to play Voltaic Key, Untap Myr Twice with Key and Elixir, Transmuter, use Transmuter during opponent's turn to play out something (Slaver is fine here)
Turn 5: At this point, you have UUUU from lands (I'm assuming Islands here) and 3 from Myr + Key, if you have Forgemaster or Tezzeret even without Gargoyle, you can start the combo.
I think there is a lot of potential for this deck tbh.
would you say scrap the original combo with sharuum or leave it in as a backup plan? And beyond that, should there be a singleton inkwell leviathan in the deck to drop against control?
would you say scrap the original combo with sharuum or leave it in as a backup plan? And beyond that, should there be a singleton inkwell leviathan in the deck to drop against control?
I have been thinking about this deck a lot for the last few days and I don't know where to go with it. I like the Sharuum combo but Mindslaver Lock tends to be much more consistent and easier to take advantage of.
i feel as if the mindslaver lock is very solid and harder to disrupt than the sharuum combo but it also requires far more combo pieces and is harder to set up. I dont have time right now but later i will try to throw together a couple of decklists and see where it goes from there.
I've been testing a Kuldotha Forgemaster deck for Extended and have had enough success to continue testing. Actually it's really awesome as a resolved Forgemaster means you win and a resolved Transmuter is almost as good. The absolute key to the deck and the key to truely abusing Forgemaster is Myr Battlesphere. Activating Forgemaster to get Battlesphere is a positive net of two artifacts which is a huge thing. It means that you can set up several activations a turn and assemble a Slaver lock. Essentially the deck is set up to be a one card combo.
At any point you can divert from this to do something like get a Filigree Angel to buy time, Mindslaver to lock them. Plus this is assuming you have nothing but a couple of artifacts in play to begin with and no hand. Anything you have in addition to this is a bonus. If you have an Elixir or Key in play it ups your activations and allows for a quicker combo.
The combination of cards you want to acheive a lock is a Key effect in play, Transmuter, Slaver in the yard, seven mana and a Sharuum in hand or play.
Return Sharuum to hand (place whatever), untap, return an artifact to place Sharuum returning Slaver activate!
Having Sharuum in hand and play is much easier as you can just switch them.
There's a lot more to say but here's my current list. It has been beating up Nassif's WW but is fairly Kold to the Fae.
I'll certainly be playing it. and if you doubt the usefulness of this spell.... well, good luck! lol. You'll be on the receiving end of it soon enough, when your Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker gets turned into an elephant.
Playing a Myr Battlesphere with a Master of Etherium in play equals 19 power between the two cards. Neato.
Oh, and Master Transmuter seems bonkers with all the ramp.
Shouldnt these decks be playing some counterspells? Spell Pierce comes to mind.
why no everflowing chalice? isnt that like the best ramp card for this deck?
also should rings of brighthearth have a place in here?
Well actually Chalice is there with the mana base right under Mox Opal. I really wish that Mind Stone were still legal because I would play that over chalice in a heartbeat if it were still legal.
I would only add Rings of Brighthearth after having a full set of both Voltaic Key and Thousand Year Elixir. They are both far better than Rings in almost every situation. Key is amazing because of it's cmc and because it enables two activations a turn. Elixir is very, very important for any matchup that isn't pure aggro because it enables immediate activations so they don't have a turn to respond.
Besides there are many other really good cards that I wish I could add but am finding it very difficult to find the space.
I'll certainly be playing it. and if you doubt the usefulness of this spell.... well, good luck! lol. You'll be on the receiving end of it soon enough, when your Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker gets turned into an elephant.
Well actually Chalice is there with the mana base right under Mox Opal. I really wish that Mind Stone were still legal because I would play that over chalice in a heartbeat if it were still legal.
I would only add Rings of Brighthearth after having a full set of both Voltaic Key and Thousand Year Elixir. They are both far better than Rings in almost every situation. Key is amazing because of it's cmc and because it enables two activations a turn. Elixir is very, very important for any matchup that isn't pure aggro because it enables immediate activations so they don't have a turn to respond.
Besides there are many other really good cards that I wish I could add but am finding it very difficult to find the space.
Rings gives you double Tezzeret activations. That's pretty strong too.
Also, you can probably run Contagion Clasp to get double proliferates on Tez and Chalice. There aren't any other good cards to proliferate though honestly. Maybe Poppet.
The idea is you are building a deck that abuses Master Transmuter and Kudoltha Forgemaster by using Voltaic Keys and Thousand Year Elixirs. You are trying to generate a hard lock with some sort of recursion (usually by having Sharuum consistently bring back Slaver to get infinite turns). You can also use Transmuter to generate large numbers of Myrs with Battlesphere or use Filigree Angel to gain a large amount of life.
The idea boils down to getting Transmuter in play with Elixir on the board. Obviously, there are many ways to fetch him
@marximus: thinking about your list again, I think you need 4 Elixir. The deck is too vulnerable without it. Lightning Greaves would have been a great replacement, but its not an option obviously. Also, 4 Forgemaster is too many. Its not good in multiples and you only want it to find Transmuter.
@Zirath: I think that I agree about the Elixir but am hesitant partially because of curve issues. My first testing had been against WW where you have 4-5 turns to win or simply get crushed so I stripped the deck down to simply be able to combo as quickly as possible. I wanted to test Voltaic Key because it works almost as well as Elixir and is free with Etherium Sculptor. Anyway I think that it is right to push the number to three or even four but space is certainly at a premium.
Also I would not by any means cut Forgemaster as it is the best card that the deck has to offer. I mentioned it before but the key to the deck is the interaction between Forgemaster and Myr Battlesphere. If you have an active Forgemaster you will win at least nine times out of ten. The reason that it isn't obvious is because it takes a long time to figure out how to correctly use him in each and every situation.
I think that some of the numbers can be trimmed to add Preordain or Ponder (I am leaning towards Preordain.) The deck needs some way to smooth some of its awkward draws and often has one mana available during the first two turns.
I'll certainly be playing it. and if you doubt the usefulness of this spell.... well, good luck! lol. You'll be on the receiving end of it soon enough, when your Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker gets turned into an elephant.
The problem with cutting Grand Architect is you are cutting your absolute best ramp spell. He works incredibly well with Etherium Sculptor (only way to get a turn 3 Forgemaster) plus Master Transmuter, Sphinx Summoner and even Sharuum the Hegemon are all Blue meaning they get pumped by him and can tap for mana. This can really speed up a Mindslaver lock because of the ton of extra mana you have available, you can hardcast Battlesphere . Also, if you can resolve him against any blue deck that means you have a better chance of playing around Mana Leak. I agree that he is a little slow but I would still keep space for him if at all possible.
The other thing that I've been toying around with is adding Vedalken Certech and Lodestone Golem. The main reason is that this current build simply gets owned by the Fae. Sure it can still win here and there but it is a very tough battle. Because of this and because Certech would also be good against aggro strategies I want to test him out. With Thousand-Year Elixir you can tap two lands on their turn and two more on yours to prevent them from countering your stuff. Golem would work to this end as well.
The deck and combo are reasonably strong against aggro strategies so the goal is to see if it can be tuned to beat a Cryptic Command deck. If it can I think it will be viable this next Extended season. If not I would stay very far away from it as Cryptic will probably be the most played spell in the next season.
I'll certainly be playing it. and if you doubt the usefulness of this spell.... well, good luck! lol. You'll be on the receiving end of it soon enough, when your Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker gets turned into an elephant.
the mindlsaver combo is more simple than that,just play arcane sanctum on turn 1 or a dual that comes untaped (like drowned catacomb or glacial fortress) and,with a transmuter in play,you can bounce a sharuum and put into play the same sharuum and return mindlsaver,this cost 4U per turn
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
hey maybe im a bit lost but we can mill the oponent with Dire Undercurrents+ Sharuum the Hegemon yes is not ¨¨fetchable¨¨ but is other combo in the same deck, probable a subpar option.
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see this vid ">vintage metagame playing:vintage:BDARK' timesB legacy:WWdeath n' taxisWW
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Originally Posted by sephirothx
Trust me, if your choice is between Jace in the mail or a girl in your bed, take the girl and wait for Jace to rotate. Even when you lose in bed, you still win...kinda.
The last couple of days I've been testing against a Faeries build and it has been a real reality check for the deck. The builds that have been posted simply have no game vs the Fae game one. There is sometimes one window of opportunity to resolve an important spell but most of the time that window doesn't exist or you don't have the important spell or can resolve it. If they get to Cryptic mana you can usually kiss the game goodbye.
I've done a lot of thinking and a ton of tilting trying to get the build to at least have a chance against them without totally ruining the deck. After a lot of testing I think I've arrived at a build that at least has a chance against them, though not favored in the least, without sacrificing the strength of other matchups and actually shapes up to be a contender in the potential meta.
The differences between this build and previous ones are Vedalken Certarch, Esper Battlemage and Contagion Engine. Even though they are only six cards total they totally change the matchup against Control and have a huge impact on other matchups like B/W tokens, Merfolk, and WW.
Certarch is the most important addition and has a huge impact against the Fae but is very versatile and can also swing games against aggro opponents as well. If you get to Metalcraft you can lock your opponent out of mana to be able to resolve spells. Remember that this deck will win 95% of the time that you have an active Forgemaster or Transmuter so all you usually need to do is resolve one spell. Certarch is made even better by Elixir and can easily stop an army all by himself or completely lock an opponent out of mana long enough to swing the game in your favor. He also works really well with Grand Architect. The build has to shift to hit Metalcraft even quicker so the additional Borderposts have been added in place of Everflowing Chalice as the Occ of Chalice makes Spellstutter Sprite that much better.
As I look at the developing meta I am realizing more and more how much I want to be casting Contagion Engine as it will simply wreck many of the decks that are now developing: B/W tokens, Elves, Faeries, Merfolk, and WW to name a few. Many times it is a one sided Wrath and can fairly easily be cast and activated even if you draw it.
In light of all the things with one toughness and my desire to pwn the Fae I also started to test Esper Battlemage and have really liked it. Like so many other things in this deck she gets really good with Thousand-Year Elixir in play and will beat Faeries all by herself.
The final build? By no means. There is a lot of work left to do but I'm really happy with the current build and think that it will be viable if people actually give it a chance.
I'll certainly be playing it. and if you doubt the usefulness of this spell.... well, good luck! lol. You'll be on the receiving end of it soon enough, when your Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker gets turned into an elephant.
You could also consider Grim Poppet for Contagion Engine's function. It doesn't distribute as many counters, but you can bounce it back and forth with Transmuter. Plus, it's a 4/4 and is tutorable by Sphinx Summoner. Also, you're running 40 artifacts. Why is Master of Etherium not in here? Is there just not room?
I was also wondering what you think makes this superior to the artifact aggro deck that's floating around that runs some similar cards.
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Play a thousand-year elixir and a kuldotha forgemaster saccing the forgemaster with 2 other artifacts to find a sharuum the hegemon returning the forgemaster to find another sharuum creating an infinite loop of sharuums entering the battlefield and dieing from the legends rule. This can be taken advantage of by glaze fiend, glassdust hulk or soul warden
EDIT: or you could draw yur whole deck with river kelpie or get infinite mana with pawn of ulamog
An inkwell leviathan (while being an extremely powerful threat) will still take three turns to win in which time you could lose the game while this has the ability to win the game on the spot, make it nigh unloseable or search up an inkwell if need be.
The sacrifice cost I mean. Your combo requires 4 artifacts as is and the amount of removal in this format would probably make it difficult to play a cost intensive combo.
I think you could easily run both tbh.
Also you should probably be running Mindslaver and Sanctum Gargoyle to hard lock someone. In fact, for 5UU a turn and something like Everflowing Chalice, you can get infinite turns. Forgemaster could easily fetch up the combo as well.
Of course. With Master Transmuter, Thousand-Year Elixir and Everflowing Chalice on the board:
1) Bounce Chalice to put Mindslaver down (U)
2) Activate Mindslaver (4U)
3) Untap Transmuter with Elixir (5U)
4) Replay Chalice
5) Bounce Chalice to put Sanctum Gargoyle down (5UU)
6) Return Mindslaver to your hand
7) On your next turn, untap and bounce Sanctum Gargoyle to replay Mindslaver.
Alternatively, you could use Forgemaster with enough artifacts down to fetch a missing piece or Tezzeret or Voltaic Key to untap Transmuter. In addition, cards like Palladium Myr and Voltaic Key can generate even more mana to fuel this. A game like:
Turn 1: Land
Turn 2: Land, Chalice for 2
Turn 3: Land, Elixir
Turn 4: Land, Palladium Myr, Use Myr to play Voltaic Key, Untap Myr Twice with Key and Elixir, Transmuter, use Transmuter during opponent's turn to play out something (Slaver is fine here)
Turn 5: At this point, you have UUUU from lands (I'm assuming Islands here) and 3 from Myr + Key, if you have Forgemaster or Tezzeret even without Gargoyle, you can start the combo.
I think there is a lot of potential for this deck tbh.
I have been thinking about this deck a lot for the last few days and I don't know where to go with it. I like the Sharuum combo but Mindslaver Lock tends to be much more consistent and easier to take advantage of.
For instance
3 Artifacts -> Battlesphere
3 Tokens -> T-Y Elixir (untap Forgemaster)
1 Token Battlesphere + 1 artifact -> Sharuum (Battlesphere)
3 Tokens -> Battlesphere 2
3 Tokens -> Master Transmuter
2 Tokens Battlesphere -> Sphinx Summoner (Sharuum)
Return Sharuum to place Sharuum (Battlesphere)
At any point you can divert from this to do something like get a Filigree Angel to buy time, Mindslaver to lock them. Plus this is assuming you have nothing but a couple of artifacts in play to begin with and no hand. Anything you have in addition to this is a bonus. If you have an Elixir or Key in play it ups your activations and allows for a quicker combo.
The combination of cards you want to acheive a lock is a Key effect in play, Transmuter, Slaver in the yard, seven mana and a Sharuum in hand or play.
Return Sharuum to hand (place whatever), untap, return an artifact to place Sharuum returning Slaver activate!
Having Sharuum in hand and play is much easier as you can just switch them.
There's a lot more to say but here's my current list. It has been beating up Nassif's WW but is fairly Kold to the Fae.
4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Grand Architect
2 Thousand Year Elixir
2 Voltaic Key
4 Master Transmuter
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Filigree Angel
1 Mindslaver
3 Myr Battlesphere
2 Sharuum the Hegemon
4 Sphinx Summoner
2 Tezzerett the Seeker
2 Mox Opal
3 Everflowing Chalice
3 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Mistvein Borderpost
12 Island
3 Swamp
also should rings of brighthearth have a place in here?
legacy: Doomsday, Dredge, BUG (shard less and still)
modern: storm, woo dredge, U-tron
EDH: maelstrom wanderer, Gisela, krenko, lazav, sharrum, sheoldred/xiahou dun, norin the wary, Thrax, Mimeoplasm, GW legends
Oh, and Master Transmuter seems bonkers with all the ramp.
Shouldnt these decks be playing some counterspells? Spell Pierce comes to mind.
Just a few thoughts.
Well actually Chalice is there with the mana base right under Mox Opal. I really wish that Mind Stone were still legal because I would play that over chalice in a heartbeat if it were still legal.
I would only add Rings of Brighthearth after having a full set of both Voltaic Key and Thousand Year Elixir. They are both far better than Rings in almost every situation. Key is amazing because of it's cmc and because it enables two activations a turn. Elixir is very, very important for any matchup that isn't pure aggro because it enables immediate activations so they don't have a turn to respond.
Besides there are many other really good cards that I wish I could add but am finding it very difficult to find the space.
Rings gives you double Tezzeret activations. That's pretty strong too.
Also, you can probably run Contagion Clasp to get double proliferates on Tez and Chalice. There aren't any other good cards to proliferate though honestly. Maybe Poppet.
The idea boils down to getting Transmuter in play with Elixir on the board. Obviously, there are many ways to fetch him
@marximus: thinking about your list again, I think you need 4 Elixir. The deck is too vulnerable without it. Lightning Greaves would have been a great replacement, but its not an option obviously. Also, 4 Forgemaster is too many. Its not good in multiples and you only want it to find Transmuter.
Also I would not by any means cut Forgemaster as it is the best card that the deck has to offer. I mentioned it before but the key to the deck is the interaction between Forgemaster and Myr Battlesphere. If you have an active Forgemaster you will win at least nine times out of ten. The reason that it isn't obvious is because it takes a long time to figure out how to correctly use him in each and every situation.
I think that some of the numbers can be trimmed to add Preordain or Ponder (I am leaning towards Preordain.) The deck needs some way to smooth some of its awkward draws and often has one mana available during the first two turns.
4 Grand Architect
4 Preordain
3 Thousand Year Elixir
1 Voltaic Key
3 Master Transmuter
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Filigree Angel
1 Mindslaver
2 Myr Battlesphere
2 Sharuum the Hegemon
2 Tezerett the Seeker
2 Mox Opal
2 Everflowing Chalice
3 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Mistvein Borderpost
12 Island
3 Swamp
2 Keys is probably fine.
The other thing that I've been toying around with is adding Vedalken Certech and Lodestone Golem. The main reason is that this current build simply gets owned by the Fae. Sure it can still win here and there but it is a very tough battle. Because of this and because Certech would also be good against aggro strategies I want to test him out. With Thousand-Year Elixir you can tap two lands on their turn and two more on yours to prevent them from countering your stuff. Golem would work to this end as well.
The deck and combo are reasonably strong against aggro strategies so the goal is to see if it can be tuned to beat a Cryptic Command deck. If it can I think it will be viable this next Extended season. If not I would stay very far away from it as Cryptic will probably be the most played spell in the next season.
Depends. How do you plan on untapping it that many times?
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
playing:vintage: BDARK' timesB
legacy: WWdeath n' taxisWW
-------------------------------
I've done a lot of thinking and a ton of tilting trying to get the build to at least have a chance against them without totally ruining the deck. After a lot of testing I think I've arrived at a build that at least has a chance against them, though not favored in the least, without sacrificing the strength of other matchups and actually shapes up to be a contender in the potential meta.
1x Contagion Engine
4x Fieldmist Borderpost
4x Mistvein Borderpost
4x Thousand-Year Elixir
1x Voltaic Key
2x Veinfire Borderpost
1x Filigree Angel
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
3x Master Transmuter
2x Esper Battlemage
2x Myr Battlesphere
3x Sphinx Summoner
4x Etherium Sculptor
1x Mindslaver
2x Mox Opal
2x Sharuum the Hegemon
3x Vedalken Certarch
12x Island
2x Swamp
The differences between this build and previous ones are Vedalken Certarch, Esper Battlemage and Contagion Engine. Even though they are only six cards total they totally change the matchup against Control and have a huge impact on other matchups like B/W tokens, Merfolk, and WW.
Certarch is the most important addition and has a huge impact against the Fae but is very versatile and can also swing games against aggro opponents as well. If you get to Metalcraft you can lock your opponent out of mana to be able to resolve spells. Remember that this deck will win 95% of the time that you have an active Forgemaster or Transmuter so all you usually need to do is resolve one spell. Certarch is made even better by Elixir and can easily stop an army all by himself or completely lock an opponent out of mana long enough to swing the game in your favor. He also works really well with Grand Architect. The build has to shift to hit Metalcraft even quicker so the additional Borderposts have been added in place of Everflowing Chalice as the Occ of Chalice makes Spellstutter Sprite that much better.
As I look at the developing meta I am realizing more and more how much I want to be casting Contagion Engine as it will simply wreck many of the decks that are now developing: B/W tokens, Elves, Faeries, Merfolk, and WW to name a few. Many times it is a one sided Wrath and can fairly easily be cast and activated even if you draw it.
In light of all the things with one toughness and my desire to pwn the Fae I also started to test Esper Battlemage and have really liked it. Like so many other things in this deck she gets really good with Thousand-Year Elixir in play and will beat Faeries all by herself.
The final build? By no means. There is a lot of work left to do but I'm really happy with the current build and think that it will be viable if people actually give it a chance.
I was also wondering what you think makes this superior to the artifact aggro deck that's floating around that runs some similar cards.