There appears to be general agreement that too many threads are devolving into arguments about the fairness (or otherwise) of Emrakul. In future, if you want to air your views about the card, please do so in this thread. If the topic does come up in a larger discussion, it is preferable that you simply link here rather than reproducing your arguments in full in that thread.
While discussing Emrakul in other threads will not be infractable, please report it if you see it, and the posts in question will be moved to this thread. Thank you.
wow, seriously? I whole thread devoted to a SINGLE CARD?
folks, this is a format where if you want to ban something amongst your friends, you CAN. there's no amount of arguing on the internet that can change or alter that ability. you're the DCI. if you don't like a card, don't complain about it on here. come up with a reasonable argument and attempt to ban it amoungst your playerbase.
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
"You heard it here folks:
Anyone who disagrees with "Jack from NC" is an idiot."-The Dead Weatherman
@viperesque: Excellant idea. At first glace I thought this thread was going to be yet another Emmy arguement amongst the many. However, while this is an Emmy rant thread, you've funneled all the rant too this thread. Exellant idea.
@Donald_McDonald: I think the whole arguement against Emmy is that players don't want to take up 10 slots in their decks just to protect against Emmy. That's too much dedication to a single card.
@Jack_from_NC: I think this thread is existing because too many play groups are having the same problem...when that happens too much, it becomes a BAN. (and yes, if your playgroup wants to play with banned cards, that's totally up to your playgroup. Afterall, each playgroup is its own DCI ) I think these forums act as a catalyst to the evolution of EDH. I'm also fairly confident that the Ban List does reflect the majority of EDH players, thereby imposing the 'rule of thumb' upon the rest.
Personally, I think that if a card comes to the point where it is 'staple' for every deck ever made, it should be banned to allow room for new ideas and strategy to enter the battlefield. Emmy is quickly approaching that chasm.
Two opinions seem to be emerging:
1)Every deck needs to have an Emmy and whoever digs it up first wins
2)If your deck has an Emmy I'm hating you out before you can dig it up
With Emmy being allowed, Bribery has already passed that chasm becoming ever sooooo BROKEN if an Emmy is at the table. Therefore, eithe Emmy has got to go or Bribery does. My preference is to take out Emmy.
Other cards fall into the "static staple" department: Topper, Skullclamp, Disk, etc. Now, I'm not saying they all should be banned because none of them in themselves are broken cards, but it sure would be nice to see some other ideas at the powerhouse tables. Anyways, I digress...
As you all can tell, I would be for banning Emmy. It's my opinion and I believe that it would better serve the EDH community if it happened. But that's all it is at the moment: An opinion.
Feel free to share yours in viperesque's Emmy room.
i thought this card was WHOA until a couple nights ago. I realized that it's little "protection" is quite cleverly shrouded in a mist. Its not really that spectacular. He can still die to damage, he can still be gained control of, he can still be gilded draked. Its not a big deal. Also, Bribery is how I got to play him hehe
Obviously...I'm saying that when it gets to the black players turn(if there is only one anyway), that they could cast these very cheap options. Basically, let's not pretend that no player has a chance to remove the card. I guess if one player has 6 permanents and the other has 15 life, you're pretty much boned. Talking in hyperbole doesn't help anything.
Again, banning him locally is fine, but it just doesn't deserve a hard ban. Though, if it gets the hard ban, I won't really care. It's not really my style.
How about the strategy of making sure you're not the one who gets attacked by it. When Emmy hits and everyone else starts pointing fingers just keep quiet and you won't get attacked.
I personally don't play it anymore in my Rasputin Dreamweaver deck because I was tired of winning with it. It wasn't fun for my opponents and It wasn't fun for me. I took channel out of my Wort the raidmother deck months before it was banned for the same reason.
for my money, permanent-based removal is the best option. there are plenty of cards that work great in general, not just against emrakul. hell, spurnmage advocate kills him for 1 mana. and if you don't like waiting until they attack, Dominating licid turns their beastie against them in a hurry.
How about the strategy of making sure you're not the one who gets attacked by it. When Emmy hits and everyone else starts pointing fingers just keep quiet and you won't get attacked.
Most of the time, the quite ones are the ones you should be worrying about.
overall I can see why he needs to be removed from the format just because he's causing people to main deck, sideboard cards, when the entire format was never really built around sideboards.
Lets see what we have to deal with emrakul before he swings at you.
time stop
gather specimens
mindbreak trap
vesuvan shapeshifter (requires set up)
memnarch (requires set up)
roil elemental + fetchland (including evolving wilds)
colorless ways:
brittle effigy (requires set up)
oblivion stone (requires set up)
nevinyrral's disk (requires set up)
predator flagship
anything with tap: destroy target creature
black ways: instant speed edicts, avatar of woe, visara the dreadful, chainer and fleshbag marauder, kalitas
green ways: destroy target creature with flying
red: destructive force and anything like it prevent emrakul shenanigans
Before hand ways
prison term
Meddling mage
not letthing them get to 15 mana. Strip mine, avalanche riders, armeggedon, cards that destroy/exile artifact mana and mana doubling artifacts/enchantments.
and the list goes on into some subpar options. But the fact remains there are existing good cards that stop him. And if you guys had a problem with emrakul being played, 10 mana sorceries resolving, and a problem with land destruction, i think your problem is that you guys aren't aware that in a format with 40 life, land destruction is a valid way of stopping stupid.
Null rod. costs 2, anyone can run it, makes them have to legitimately get to 15 to play him, by then they should have lost.
Only if he's their General.
I hate how many people say this card is the best way to deal with Emrakul. There are ways to ramp up to 15 mana (even though you only need 3G) without Artifacts.
Edit: And it's 1 card out of 100, against a creature that can be cast from a zone that's not targetable in the cases where Emrakul IS their General.
First I want to say that I am a spike first, before anything else, even EDH. I play every major format except vintage, and I pretty much won't play a standard deck without Jace TMS.
EDH is where I go to have fun, but I still want to win every game. To me that is the point of playing. However, it has started to seem that every game of EDH starts turning into who can tutor and cast Emrakul first. Which is fine, because that is a great way to win the game, except it feels like everyone wants to win that way because it is easy to.
Basically, Emrakul just seems to make EDH less diverse, and as a result less enjoyable. I play Emrakul in most of my EDH decks because I like to win. I enjoy swinging with a 15/15 and making my opponents sac 6 permanents. But for some reason I get the feeling I'm the only one having fun, and that's not good for anyone.
TL;DR: Emrakul makes EDH less fun because the game revolves around it.
Pacifism doesn't work because it's a spell on the stack when you try to target Emrakul, but O-Ring works since it's a triggered ability and not a spell.
The best option is probably to, you know, disrupt your opponent before they get him out. Or take a hit and then kill him. Or kill them first. Or basically anything but just sit there and do nothing, really. Not that hard, don't know what people are whining about. Its not like Rofellos is a legal general anymore.
The best option is probably to, you know, disrupt your opponent before they get him out. Or take a hit and then kill him. Or kill them first. Or basically anything but just sit there and do nothing, really. Not that hard, don't know what people are whining about. Its not like Rofellos is a legal general anymore.
The main issue is the annhilator 6, and the fact many people have decks that can get him out turn 3+, which is then nearly impossible to recover from a strike. The time walk is just nutso, too.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Personally, I think that if a card comes to the point where it is 'staple' for every deck ever made, it should be banned to allow room for new ideas and strategy to enter the battlefield. Emmy is quickly approaching that chasm.
This card is hardly in every deck, i play it in 2 decks atm, one is mayael cause it cheats the other is sharuum simply because it is the best option for shuffling my graveyard while mind belling. I would say that emrakul doesnt belong in the vast majority of decks. In white id rather have iona for 8 mana less, in green i can be tooth and nailing for 9, blue i can be time stretching, black i can be using drain life cards, and red i can be blowing things up all day long...all of these for less mana and arguably better effects. Tbh emmy is either cast for 15 mana and does serious damage, and at 15 mana i think that is reasonable, or it is cheated in and dies before it ever does anything. Also i still fail to see how winning with one creature can be any worse than winning in any other way. Emmy is just another strategy, it has tons of answers just like any other strategy, and it is hated just like any other strategy. It is just another threat, you need to answer threats or loose the game, so if you dont like loosing than play the game. On a final note for now, it amuses me greatly that in edh, the format of the biggest and the baddest spells and creatures, people still whine about emmy.
The main issue is the annhilator 6, and the fact many people have decks that can get him out turn 3+, which is then nearly impossible to recover from a strike. The time walk is just nutso, too.
well...any deck that can get him out on turn 3 (realistically) aren't going to get the time walk. without the time one, someone's probably going to wrath before he can attack, or after he attacks once.
just for S&G I checked my angus deck and it has 13 answers to emrakul...and i wasn't even thinking about emrakul whatsoever when i made it. almost all of those answers cost 3 or less. plus other stuff that makes it possible to live through sacking 6 perms a turn (i.e. rhys with a bunch of tokens out, or leveled lighthouse chronologist)
so it's not like you need "emrakul specific" removal, all those are good on their own.
anyway if you really hate him getting briberied, stop shoehorning him into decks where he isn't that good.
There appears to be general agreement that too many threads are devolving into arguments about the fairness (or otherwise) of Emrakul. In future, if you want to air your views about the card, please do so in this thread. If the topic does come up in a larger discussion, it is preferable that you simply link here rather than reproducing your arguments in full in that thread.
While discussing Emrakul in other threads will not be infractable, please report it if you see it, and the posts in question will be moved to this thread. Thank you.
folks, this is a format where if you want to ban something amongst your friends, you CAN. there's no amount of arguing on the internet that can change or alter that ability. you're the DCI. if you don't like a card, don't complain about it on here. come up with a reasonable argument and attempt to ban it amoungst your playerbase.
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
Tsabo's Decree
Rout
annihilator counters
Trickbind
Voidslime
Stifle
only creature is Emrakul
Ends (Odds/Ends)
Diabolic Edict
Dispense Justice
Wing Shards
feel free to add any instant speed answers - brittle effigy doesn't count.
I personally don't think it should be banned, but then again, my main deck is dedicated to cheating it into play.
I'm adding these to the list of viable answers to Emmy:
[CARD]Shriekmaw
Bone Shredder
Big Game Hunter
Nekrataal
[/CARD]
These aren't counted as colored spells, right? And we can't pretend that whoever gets Emmy'd won't still have access to 2-4 mana a lot of the time.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
Name 10 variants of Rout and I will.
Emrakul's problem is that this format makes it incredibly easy to cheat one onto the table or assemble an Infinite Mana Combo and hardcast it.
People's problem with Emrakul is they don't want to modify their decks to run 4-7 Activated/Triggered abilities that could deal with him.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
@Donald_McDonald: I think the whole arguement against Emmy is that players don't want to take up 10 slots in their decks just to protect against Emmy. That's too much dedication to a single card.
@Jack_from_NC: I think this thread is existing because too many play groups are having the same problem...when that happens too much, it becomes a BAN. (and yes, if your playgroup wants to play with banned cards, that's totally up to your playgroup. Afterall, each playgroup is its own DCI ) I think these forums act as a catalyst to the evolution of EDH. I'm also fairly confident that the Ban List does reflect the majority of EDH players, thereby imposing the 'rule of thumb' upon the rest.
Personally, I think that if a card comes to the point where it is 'staple' for every deck ever made, it should be banned to allow room for new ideas and strategy to enter the battlefield. Emmy is quickly approaching that chasm.
Two opinions seem to be emerging:
1)Every deck needs to have an Emmy and whoever digs it up first wins
2)If your deck has an Emmy I'm hating you out before you can dig it up
With Emmy being allowed, Bribery has already passed that chasm becoming ever sooooo BROKEN if an Emmy is at the table. Therefore, eithe Emmy has got to go or Bribery does. My preference is to take out Emmy.
Other cards fall into the "static staple" department: Topper, Skullclamp, Disk, etc. Now, I'm not saying they all should be banned because none of them in themselves are broken cards, but it sure would be nice to see some other ideas at the powerhouse tables. Anyways, I digress...
As you all can tell, I would be for banning Emmy. It's my opinion and I believe that it would better serve the EDH community if it happened. But that's all it is at the moment: An opinion.
Feel free to share yours in viperesque's Emmy room.
Cheers
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
those are sorcery speed.
Obviously...I'm saying that when it gets to the black players turn(if there is only one anyway), that they could cast these very cheap options. Basically, let's not pretend that no player has a chance to remove the card. I guess if one player has 6 permanents and the other has 15 life, you're pretty much boned. Talking in hyperbole doesn't help anything.
Again, banning him locally is fine, but it just doesn't deserve a hard ban. Though, if it gets the hard ban, I won't really care. It's not really my style.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
I personally don't play it anymore in my Rasputin Dreamweaver deck because I was tired of winning with it. It wasn't fun for my opponents and It wasn't fun for me. I took channel out of my Wort the raidmother deck months before it was banned for the same reason.
Wort/ Jor Kadeen/ Rasputin/BWG Karador/ Rakdos/ Edric/ Dralnu/ BBMikaeus
Mirror of Fate collection counter 98
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
Most of the time, the quite ones are the ones you should be worrying about.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
Can bounce it, Ertai's Meddling can suspend it.
overall I can see why he needs to be removed from the format just because he's causing people to main deck, sideboard cards, when the entire format was never really built around sideboards.
time stop
gather specimens
mindbreak trap
vesuvan shapeshifter (requires set up)
memnarch (requires set up)
roil elemental + fetchland (including evolving wilds)
colorless ways:
brittle effigy (requires set up)
oblivion stone (requires set up)
nevinyrral's disk (requires set up)
predator flagship
anything with tap: destroy target creature
black ways: instant speed edicts, avatar of woe, visara the dreadful, chainer and fleshbag marauder, kalitas
green ways: destroy target creature with flying
red: destructive force and anything like it prevent emrakul shenanigans
Before hand ways
prison term
Meddling mage
not letthing them get to 15 mana. Strip mine, avalanche riders, armeggedon, cards that destroy/exile artifact mana and mana doubling artifacts/enchantments.
and the list goes on into some subpar options. But the fact remains there are existing good cards that stop him. And if you guys had a problem with emrakul being played, 10 mana sorceries resolving, and a problem with land destruction, i think your problem is that you guys aren't aware that in a format with 40 life, land destruction is a valid way of stopping stupid.
Legacy:WUBG Jace Rock
Trade thread
Sig by: heroes of the plane studios
My decks
Top 4 (4th) SCG IQ 11/4/12
Only if he's their General.
I hate how many people say this card is the best way to deal with Emrakul. There are ways to ramp up to 15 mana (even though you only need 3G) without Artifacts.
Edit: And it's 1 card out of 100, against a creature that can be cast from a zone that's not targetable in the cases where Emrakul IS their General.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
EDH is where I go to have fun, but I still want to win every game. To me that is the point of playing. However, it has started to seem that every game of EDH starts turning into who can tutor and cast Emrakul first. Which is fine, because that is a great way to win the game, except it feels like everyone wants to win that way because it is easy to.
Basically, Emrakul just seems to make EDH less diverse, and as a result less enjoyable. I play Emrakul in most of my EDH decks because I like to win. I enjoy swinging with a 15/15 and making my opponents sac 6 permanents. But for some reason I get the feeling I'm the only one having fun, and that's not good for anyone.
TL;DR: Emrakul makes EDH less fun because the game revolves around it.
Level 1 Judge
WUBRG
Pacifism doesn't work because it's a spell on the stack when you try to target Emrakul, but O-Ring works since it's a triggered ability and not a spell.
---
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
WUB Sharuum, the Hegemon
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest
The main issue is the annhilator 6, and the fact many people have decks that can get him out turn 3+, which is then nearly impossible to recover from a strike. The time walk is just nutso, too.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
This card is hardly in every deck, i play it in 2 decks atm, one is mayael cause it cheats the other is sharuum simply because it is the best option for shuffling my graveyard while mind belling. I would say that emrakul doesnt belong in the vast majority of decks. In white id rather have iona for 8 mana less, in green i can be tooth and nailing for 9, blue i can be time stretching, black i can be using drain life cards, and red i can be blowing things up all day long...all of these for less mana and arguably better effects. Tbh emmy is either cast for 15 mana and does serious damage, and at 15 mana i think that is reasonable, or it is cheated in and dies before it ever does anything. Also i still fail to see how winning with one creature can be any worse than winning in any other way. Emmy is just another strategy, it has tons of answers just like any other strategy, and it is hated just like any other strategy. It is just another threat, you need to answer threats or loose the game, so if you dont like loosing than play the game. On a final note for now, it amuses me greatly that in edh, the format of the biggest and the baddest spells and creatures, people still whine about emmy.
Sharuum the Hegemon
Mayael the Anima
Wort, Boggart Auntie
Sliver Overlord
Drana Kalastria Bloodchief
99 mountain Ashling
well...any deck that can get him out on turn 3 (realistically) aren't going to get the time walk. without the time one, someone's probably going to wrath before he can attack, or after he attacks once.
just for S&G I checked my angus deck and it has 13 answers to emrakul...and i wasn't even thinking about emrakul whatsoever when i made it. almost all of those answers cost 3 or less. plus other stuff that makes it possible to live through sacking 6 perms a turn (i.e. rhys with a bunch of tokens out, or leveled lighthouse chronologist)
so it's not like you need "emrakul specific" removal, all those are good on their own.
anyway if you really hate him getting briberied, stop shoehorning him into decks where he isn't that good.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR