My opponent has 8 lands in play, one of which is a Verdant Catacombs that has not been popped.
My opponent casts Avenger of Zendikar. It resolves. My opponent gets 8 0/1 plant tokens.
I have a Doom Blade in my hand. Am I able to kill the avenger before his plant tokens end up with counters on them?
I think I am. My opponent would tap and sacrifice the fetchland, which is the cost to use it's ability. The "search your library" ability would go on the stack. In response, I would cast Doom Blade. It would resolve, kill the Avenger, and then the opponent would search for a land, put it into play, and have nothing happen.
Is this correct?
Scenario #2:
My opponent has 7 lands in play. He casts Avenger, it resolves. Can he then maintain priority and play a land, since there is nothing on the stack?
And I cannot respond to a player playing a land (does not use the stack, right?).
So even if I then Doom Blade in response to the landfall trigger on Avenger, the tokens will still get the +1/+1 counter, because abilities on the stack are independant of the source, and don't care if Avenger is still in play when it resolves.
My opponent has 8 lands in play, one of which is a Verdant Catacombs that has not been popped.
My opponent casts Avenger of Zendikar. It resolves. My opponent gets 8 0/1 plant tokens.
I have a Doom Blade in my hand. Am I able to kill the avenger before his plant tokens end up with counters on them?
I think I am. My opponent would tap and sacrifice the fetchland, which is the cost to use it's ability. The "search your library" ability would go on the stack. In response, I would cast Doom Blade. It would resolve, kill the Avenger, and then the opponent would search for a land, put it into play, and have nothing happen.
Is this correct?
Scenario #2:
My opponent has 7 lands in play. He casts Avenger, it resolves. Can he then maintain priority and play a land, since there is nothing on the stack?
And I cannot respond to a player playing a land (does not use the stack, right?).
So even if I then Doom Blade in response to the landfall trigger on Avenger, the tokens will still get the +1/+1 counter, because abilities on the stack are independant of the source, and don't care if Avenger is still in play when it resolves.
1. You will be able to cast doom blade before the land the he searches for will come into play. He will get the tokens but you will have the opportunity to kill it before his Landfall ability can hit the stack.
2. Once a spell finishes resolving, the active player gets priority again. Avenger resolves, gives him his tokens, priority goes back to him. He then gets to safely play a land and get the landfall ability before you can kill him. You are correct that he gets the counters because as you stated, abilities exist independent of the source that made them
Scenario #2 is not quite right. When Avenger of Zendikar resolves, its triggered ability goes on the stack before its controller receives priority. Since the "create a pile of tokens" ability is on the stack, that player can't play a land yet. You can cast doom blade in response to the EtB trigger and kill the Avenger before the tokens are even created. Your opponent will end up with a bunch of 0/1 plants.
Even if they somehow get a land out before your doom blade resolves (e.g., by cracking a fetch or casting Harrow), the Avenger's resulting landfall ability will resolve before its EtB ability, and those plant tokens will end up without counters.
Thank you very much. I didn't even think about casting Doom Blade in response to Avenger's enter the battlefield effect.
So, the play would look like:
1) Opponent Casts Avenger
2) Resolve Avenger, stack is empty
3) Avenger enters, and it's plant creation ability triggers, and is placed on the stack
4) I cast doom blade, which is placed on the stack above the ETB plant trigger
5) Doom Blade resolves, killing Avenger.
Even if they somehow get a land out before your doom blade resolves (e.g., by cracking a fetch or casting Harrow), the Avenger's resulting landfall ability will resolve before its EtB ability, and those plant tokens will end up without counters.
Edited for card tags and clarity.
Could my opponent not then, after the ETB trigger resolves and plant tokens are made, crack a fetch land, and have that trigger before doom blade resolves, and then stack Avengers landfall trigger on top of doom blade on the stack so that it resolves before doom blade? Or he cannot add things to the stack until Doom Blade resolves?
So, from the previous set of steps:
4) I cast doom blade
5) My opponent casts harrow, fetches a land, etc.
6) Avenger's landfall ability is placed on the stack above doom blade
7) Landfall resolves, plants get counters
8) Doom blade resolves, killing Avenger.
I've kind of made it more confusing than it actually is, now.
4) I cast doom blade
5) My opponent casts harrow, fetches a land, etc.
6) Avenger's landfall ability is placed on the stack above doom blade
7) Landfall resolves, plants get counters
8) Doom blade resolves, killing Avenger.
*snip*
Close. Here's how it looks, more completely (my changes in bold):
4) I cast doom blade
5) My opponent casts harrow, fetches a land, etc. 5a) Assuming no one responds to the above, they resolve and put a land/lands onto the battlefield. I point this out because someone could jump in and play something relevant here if they have it.
6) Avenger's landfall ability is placed on the stack above doom blade
7) Landfall resolves, any plants already on the battlefield get counters (i.e., not the plants from the Avenger's ability, which hasn't resolved yet)
8) Doom blade resolves, killing Avenger. 9) Avenger's EtB ability resolves, creating a mess of plant tokens. They do not get any counters, because the landfall ability has already resolved and is over and done with, and the Avenger is in the graveyard where its Landfall ability can't be triggered again.
Edit: To clarify, your opponent can do what you're suggesting, but it still won't get +1/+1 counters onto the 0/1 plant tokens made by the Avenger, because they won't be on the battlefield until after any of the Avenger's landfall abilities have resolved and the Avenger has been destroyed. It would, however, get +1/+1 counters onto any Plant creatures that your opponent already controlled (if, for instance, they already had a Carnivorous Plant or a plant token from Khalni Garden, they'd get the counter(s)).
My opponent has 8 lands in play, one of which is a Verdant Catacombs that has not been popped.
My opponent casts Avenger of Zendikar. It resolves. My opponent gets 8 0/1 plant tokens.
I have a Doom Blade in my hand. Am I able to kill the avenger before his plant tokens end up with counters on them?
I think I am. My opponent would tap and sacrifice the fetchland, which is the cost to use it's ability. The "search your library" ability would go on the stack. In response, I would cast Doom Blade. It would resolve, kill the Avenger, and then the opponent would search for a land, put it into play, and have nothing happen.
Is this correct?
Scenario #2:
My opponent has 7 lands in play. He casts Avenger, it resolves. Can he then maintain priority and play a land, since there is nothing on the stack?
And I cannot respond to a player playing a land (does not use the stack, right?).
So even if I then Doom Blade in response to the landfall trigger on Avenger, the tokens will still get the +1/+1 counter, because abilities on the stack are independant of the source, and don't care if Avenger is still in play when it resolves.
Currently Playing:
you're right on both scenarios.
2. Once a spell finishes resolving, the active player gets priority again. Avenger resolves, gives him his tokens, priority goes back to him. He then gets to safely play a land and get the landfall ability before you can kill him. You are correct that he gets the counters because as you stated, abilities exist independent of the source that made them
Ex-DCI Level 1 judge
Ex-Rules Advisor
Even if they somehow get a land out before your doom blade resolves (e.g., by cracking a fetch or casting Harrow), the Avenger's resulting landfall ability will resolve before its EtB ability, and those plant tokens will end up without counters.
Edited for card tags and clarity.
So, the play would look like:
1) Opponent Casts Avenger
2) Resolve Avenger, stack is empty
3) Avenger enters, and it's plant creation ability triggers, and is placed on the stack
4) I cast doom blade, which is placed on the stack above the ETB plant trigger
5) Doom Blade resolves, killing Avenger.
Could my opponent not then, after the ETB trigger resolves and plant tokens are made, crack a fetch land, and have that trigger before doom blade resolves, and then stack Avengers landfall trigger on top of doom blade on the stack so that it resolves before doom blade? Or he cannot add things to the stack until Doom Blade resolves?
So, from the previous set of steps:
4) I cast doom blade
5) My opponent casts harrow, fetches a land, etc.
6) Avenger's landfall ability is placed on the stack above doom blade
7) Landfall resolves, plants get counters
8) Doom blade resolves, killing Avenger.
I've kind of made it more confusing than it actually is, now.
Currently Playing:
Close. Here's how it looks, more completely (my changes in bold):
4) I cast doom blade
5) My opponent casts harrow, fetches a land, etc.
5a) Assuming no one responds to the above, they resolve and put a land/lands onto the battlefield. I point this out because someone could jump in and play something relevant here if they have it.
6) Avenger's landfall ability is placed on the stack above doom blade
7) Landfall resolves, any plants already on the battlefield get counters (i.e., not the plants from the Avenger's ability, which hasn't resolved yet)
8) Doom blade resolves, killing Avenger.
9) Avenger's EtB ability resolves, creating a mess of plant tokens. They do not get any counters, because the landfall ability has already resolved and is over and done with, and the Avenger is in the graveyard where its Landfall ability can't be triggered again.
Edit: To clarify, your opponent can do what you're suggesting, but it still won't get +1/+1 counters onto the 0/1 plant tokens made by the Avenger, because they won't be on the battlefield until after any of the Avenger's landfall abilities have resolved and the Avenger has been destroyed. It would, however, get +1/+1 counters onto any Plant creatures that your opponent already controlled (if, for instance, they already had a Carnivorous Plant or a plant token from Khalni Garden, they'd get the counter(s)).