So i was wondering if i should put Genesis Wave into my EDH deck, i noticed however i have 26 Spells in my deck, which means that about 1/4 of the cards i hit will be spells that go to the graveyard (2 of them are Flashback spells).
Other factors are that i'm playing Kedereckt Leviathan in my deck, making the Wave look a bit more useless.
And Third i do not play a lot of mana ramp, i'm basically playing Sol Ring, Cultivate, Primeval Titan, Skyshroud Claim, Darksteel Ingot and Mirari's Wake.
So i guess TL;DR: How many permanents would you need in your deck for you to feel that Genesis Wave is a viable choice as a card ? What would make it not worth it etc?
It's not just the concentration of permanents that matters. You also have to consider how large you can consistently make the spell, and the spread of mana costs on those permanents. In EDH, you realistically want X=6 or 7 for it to matter for most decks. So... how likely is your deck to have GGG7?
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I think it mostly depends on how much mana you can reliably pump into the Wave. For example, if only 50% of my nonlands are permanents (a pretty low number) and I get a Wave off for 30 mana, who cares that I'm getting 15-20 permanents instead of 27?
Basically, my advice is to look at all of your nonland permanents and decide how many of them you'd like to see when you cast wave, then calculate the mana cost needed to make that happen based on probability. If that number is higher than you will reliably produce, it probably doesn't fit.
Kederekt Leviathan should just be counted as a nonpermanent. Genesis Wave does say "may".
It's not just the concentration of permanents that matters. You also have to consider how large you can consistently make the spell, and the spread of mana costs on those permanents. In EDH, you realistically want X=6 or 7 for it to matter for most decks. So... how likely is your deck to have GGG7?
If you have 7GGG though, wouldn't it just be easier to hard cast the Green Myojin? <_<
I prefer the Wave in a deck with limited non-permanent density, so you don't have as much non-permanent waste. My Ezuri deck does this well, and I generally never cast it unless I can get up to at least 9GGG, and preferably 15GGG so that I can access either my highest cost normal critter (Terastodon) or my highest cost critter (Emrakul). But if you can really pound out the mana, then it really doesn't matter when you start hitting 30GGG, as mentioned earlier.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks
Commander
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Aggro/Combo - Favorite) Skullbriar, the Walking Grave (Sac and Grave hijinks) Azusa, Lost but Seeking (Landfall hijinks) Kaalia of the Vast (Heavily modded)
I LOVE Genesis Wave in my Omnath build. I always get at least 15 for X, up to 42 once (have been capable of doing 100 a few times, but too risky ). My deck is 35 lands, Good ramp, lots of creatures, a few artifacts and enchantments... so it always comes out worth it for me.
If you have 7GGG though, wouldn't it just be easier to hard cast the Green Myojin? <_<
The green Myojin is not even close to the same thing as Genesis Wave. Wave gets stuff out of your library, Myojin just helps you empty your hand.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
Agreed that the Green Myojin and Genesis Wave are not very comparable. One gives card advantage by helping you place permanents from library to play. The other empties your hand and places permanents (creatures only) from hand to play. Of course there are other considerations (one is blocked by Gaddock Teeg while the other isn't, one is a creature and the other is a sorcery, etc.) but in general, I'd give the edge to Genesis Wave in most decks.
As for the OP's question, this depends if you want a statistical analysis to the question. Assuming that you have 10 lands in play and 1 Genesis Wave in hand, you will be able to wave for 7. Assuming that your deck contains 37 lands and 13 nonland permanents with casting cost 7 or less, you will be able to wave for a population size of 88 (99 - 10 - 1), sample size of 7 (Genesis Wave for 7), successes of 40 (50 - 10) in a hypergeometric distribution. Then, you will have: -
1.2% chance of getting 0 permanents out
7.7 chance of getting 1 permanents out
21% chance of getting 2 permanents out
30.3% chance of getting 3 permanents out
24.9% chance of getting 4 permanents out
11.7% chance of getting 5 permanents out
2.9% chance of getting 6 permanents out
0.03% chance of getting 7 permanents out
The cumulative odds of getting at least 3 permanents is pretty decent (about 70% chance) but of course, this is nothing to shout about. Of course, increasing this to a Genesis Wave for 8 would yield much better results probability wise 53.6% chance of getting at least 4 permanents while Genesis Wave for 9 would give you 65.7% chance of getting at least 4 permanents.
So, basically, the takings from this statistical nonsense is simple. It depends not just on the number of permanents in your deck but how much you usually pay for X.
This is important because one of reason why this card is a Top 50 card in any case, is because in multiplayer games, X tends to be a relatively large number in multiplayer games so the number of permanents you wave out tends to be correspondingly large. Also, it is nice that you have an option to dump the permanents you don't want in the graveyard (dumping and Riftstone Portal and the aptly named Genesis, anybody?). The one crucial question you might want to ask about using Genesis Wave is simply this: What are the odds that you are comfortable with?
More than half the time it gets played against me, I'm holding Fork.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH FTW
Currently running:
BRG Xira Arien BRG UR Melek, Izzet Paragon UR WUG Jenara, Asura of War WUG WRG Mayael the Anima WRG WB Triad of Fates WB BG Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR WR Aurelia the Warleader WR WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
Well, i've been convinced, but i think this is a great thread anyway for discussion. I just know that i mostly play multiplayer, and i can definitely see casting it for X = 12+
Well, i've been convinced, but i think this is a great thread anyway for discussion. I just know that i mostly play multiplayer, and i can definitely see casting it for X = 12+
Hmm.... Genesis Wave becomes really strong at that area. Under my same assumptions after assuming increased lands in play and decreased land in the population, you will have (success in population = 38, population size = 82, sample size = 12: -
Seriously, this card is absolutely bonkers in almost every green highlander deck. Mono green especially, but even when you're going to 2 or 3 colors, green decks typically don't play so many instants and sorceries that it isn't worth it. As others have said, it's more a question of when does X make it worth it, which I would put around 7 or so.
I decided to test this in my vorosh the hunter edh deck, and the results were amazing. I can easily drop this spell for 25+ which basically spells an instant game win depending on everyone else's board. Even if it isn't a win, then it is still a card that ramps your board position like no other.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Other factors are that i'm playing Kedereckt Leviathan in my deck, making the Wave look a bit more useless.
And Third i do not play a lot of mana ramp, i'm basically playing Sol Ring, Cultivate, Primeval Titan, Skyshroud Claim, Darksteel Ingot and Mirari's Wake.
So i guess TL;DR: How many permanents would you need in your deck for you to feel that Genesis Wave is a viable choice as a card ? What would make it not worth it etc?
Basically, my advice is to look at all of your nonland permanents and decide how many of them you'd like to see when you cast wave, then calculate the mana cost needed to make that happen based on probability. If that number is higher than you will reliably produce, it probably doesn't fit.
Kederekt Leviathan should just be counted as a nonpermanent. Genesis Wave does say "may".
Yeah, what tedv said...
If you have 7GGG though, wouldn't it just be easier to hard cast the Green Myojin? <_<
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Commander
Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Aggro/Combo - Favorite)
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave (Sac and Grave hijinks)
Azusa, Lost but Seeking (Landfall hijinks)
Kaalia of the Vast (Heavily modded)
Standard
Waiting for Innistrad...
Extended
Hah!
Modern
Living End Cascade (RGB)
Legacy
Burn
Vintage
None
Casual
WB Aggro-Control
Green Stompy
Pink Floyd (UWr Wall Control)
Lunch Box (Fatty ramp)
D-Bag (White Control)
Level 13 Task Mage
Not when your opponent has Uyo, Silent Prophet in play...
The green Myojin is not even close to the same thing as Genesis Wave. Wave gets stuff out of your library, Myojin just helps you empty your hand.
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB
As for the OP's question, this depends if you want a statistical analysis to the question. Assuming that you have 10 lands in play and 1 Genesis Wave in hand, you will be able to wave for 7. Assuming that your deck contains 37 lands and 13 nonland permanents with casting cost 7 or less, you will be able to wave for a population size of 88 (99 - 10 - 1), sample size of 7 (Genesis Wave for 7), successes of 40 (50 - 10) in a hypergeometric distribution. Then, you will have: -
The cumulative odds of getting at least 3 permanents is pretty decent (about 70% chance) but of course, this is nothing to shout about. Of course, increasing this to a Genesis Wave for 8 would yield much better results probability wise 53.6% chance of getting at least 4 permanents while Genesis Wave for 9 would give you 65.7% chance of getting at least 4 permanents.
So, basically, the takings from this statistical nonsense is simple. It depends not just on the number of permanents in your deck but how much you usually pay for X.
This is important because one of reason why this card is a Top 50 card in any case, is because in multiplayer games, X tends to be a relatively large number in multiplayer games so the number of permanents you wave out tends to be correspondingly large. Also, it is nice that you have an option to dump the permanents you don't want in the graveyard (dumping and Riftstone Portal and the aptly named Genesis, anybody?). The one crucial question you might want to ask about using Genesis Wave is simply this: What are the odds that you are comfortable with?
More than half the time it gets played against me, I'm holding Fork.
Currently running:
BRG Xira Arien BRG
UR Melek, Izzet Paragon UR
WUG Jenara, Asura of War WUG
WRG Mayael the Anima WRG
WB Triad of Fates WB
BG Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR
WR Aurelia the Warleader WR
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
Hmm.... Genesis Wave becomes really strong at that area. Under my same assumptions after assuming increased lands in play and decreased land in the population, you will have (success in population = 38, population size = 82, sample size = 12: -
Humour me. I am studying for quants
Seriously, this card is absolutely bonkers in almost every green highlander deck. Mono green especially, but even when you're going to 2 or 3 colors, green decks typically don't play so many instants and sorceries that it isn't worth it. As others have said, it's more a question of when does X make it worth it, which I would put around 7 or so.