[GP:Florence] Saito DQed without prize.

[jeffbcrandall]

Originally Posted by RyanFisher

His most recent DQ prior to this was in 2001... which is 9 years ago. He has recieved warnings about Slow Play, which is unrelated to his DQ in 2001. As said before in this thread, top 8 matches are not timed, this is when he was looking at jace numerous times, checking the graveyard, etc. It was not during a timed match. Judges can't base their observations concerning players from previous events.

I wasnt speaking at all about any previous DQs. I was speaking of his most recent DQ when I was mentioning that (as the post clearly states). Just figured I would clarify that since you seemed to misunderstand.

[Donutninja]

Look Saito is a nice guy obviously. Read any of his old stuff on C-fireball and you will see. But! He is still a filthy cheater! I know plenty of guys like him who are fun and great to hang out with who will rip people off for their own gain without blinking an eye. Not sorry to see him get his comeuppance, he will do fine in whatever else he chooses to do in life. Don't trust him though...

[Necrogeist]

Originally Posted by RyanFisher

His most recent DQ prior to this was in 2001... which is 9 years ago. He has recieved warnings about Slow Play, which is unrelated to his DQ in 2001. As said before in this thread, top 8 matches are not timed, this is when he was looking at jace numerous times, checking the graveyard, etc. It was not during a timed match. Judges can't base their observations concerning players from previous events.

Not the case. The Jace event was during a timed round (http://billymoreno2.wordpress.com/20...or-eyewitness/).

[Zappa1]

Originally Posted by Necrogeist

Not the case. The Jace event was during a timed round (http://billymoreno2.wordpress.com/20...or-eyewitness/).

Just wondering, are there any known footage of this match up? There's quite a bit of footage on his other stuff, but I was wondering if this match was recorded. Having that post would imply a "No" but I was just curious.

[armlx]

Originally Posted by Zappa1

Just wondering, are there any known footage of this match up? There's quite a bit of footage on his other stuff, but I was wondering if this match was recorded. Having that post would imply a "No" but I was just curious.

It was not. I was however at the event and the story was confirmed not only be multiple spectators but by his opponent.

[october_darkness]

I wasn't there, so I'm not going to have an opinion on Saito himself. What I will say, is that having played in multiple ptq's... I wish judges would have been stricter when it came to me playing against other people. I've played against people who stall, people who whine and complain, and people who try to bend the rules to their advantage. I think Saito's banning will have a resonating effect, and remind all players at every level to be more aware of the rules, the reasons for those rules, and how to abide by them.

[6jerfz]

It doesn't take a level 4 judge to tell when someone is stalling. Its generally really obvious and annoying to boot.

[frankcseke]

Originally Posted by october_darkness

I wasn't there, so I'm not going to have an opinion on Saito himself. What I will say, is that having played in multiple ptq's... I wish judges would have been stricter when it came to me playing against other people. I've played against people who stall, people who whine and complain, and people who try to bend the rules to their advantage. I think Saito's banning will have a resonating effect, and remind all players at every level to be more aware of the rules, the reasons for those rules, and how to abide by them.

I would imagine there are a number of players who do the same, and the pattern can be recognized by Saito and others. From everything I've read on this thread it does not sound like "slow play" in which that is understandable and it would be a pitty if that is what Saito was cited for doing. Seeing how he has been watched for a while, this is not an isolated incident, and I agree that setting the example sends a strong message that this is a competitive game that is not going to tolerate people taking advantage of even the most remote flexing of rules to gain an advantage.

Some people are making it sound as though Saito is unfairly being punished as others have not been suspended for the same violation of the rules. Is this even true? There must have been similar infractions over the years. And if this is the first, well there is a first time for things so as to set strong precedent.

[Valarin]

The biggest impact is that this disqualifies any of his previous accomplishments. He's illustrated that, morally and ethically, he is OK with breaking the rules. Given that, how can any of his previous wins not be immediately suspect? He could have cheated in every single game, and just not gotten caught. He could have stacked his deck, played more than 4 copies of a card and swapped them out before deck checking (I personally can't believe how rampant this cheat is), he could have sneaked a peek at cards when shuffling, etc. No one knows how many times he cheated in the past and got away with it.

If it were up to me he would be banned for life and have all pro points revoked. All players get the benefit of the doubt to begin with, but once you show that you are morally OK with cheating, you can never be trusted again in an event. Even if you never cheat again, how will we know? The only true stopgap against cheating is the players own refusal to do so, and since Saito has proven he doesn't have that, how can any player playing against him in a future tourney ever be confident he isn't cheating them?

The professional MTG circuit already has a reputation in the toilet, and it's because of stuff like this. Shady players, making shady plays, and/or outright cheating, are either ignored, or given light slaps on the wrist. Until that changes, pro MTG will continue to encourage shady players and outright cheaters to get into competitve MTG and continue to drag the scene down past it's already laughing stock status as a "serious" tour.

If someone keeps walking past the tiger pit wearing steak underwear, after a while you stop blaming the tigers for attacking him. As long as rules enforcement and penalties for competitive MTG are a joke, cheaters will keep showing up and playing

[Solaran_X]

Originally Posted by Valarin

The biggest impact is that this disqualifies any of his previous accomplishments. He's illustrated that, morally and ethically, he is OK with breaking the rules. Given that, how can any of his previous wins not be immediately suspect? He could have cheated in every single game, and just not gotten caught. He could have stacked his deck, played more than 4 copies of a card and swapped them out before deck checking (I personally can't believe how rampant this cheat is), he could have sneaked a peek at cards when shuffling, etc. No one knows how many times he cheated in the past and got away with it.

If it were up to me he would be banned for life and have all pro points revoked. All players get the benefit of the doubt to begin with, but once you show that you are morally OK with cheating, you can never be trusted again in an event. Even if you never cheat again, how will we know? The only true stopgap against cheating is the players own refusal to do so, and since Saito has proven he doesn't have that, how can any player playing against him in a future tourney ever be confident he isn't cheating them?

The professional MTG circuit already has a reputation in the toilet, and it's because of stuff like this. Shady players, making shady plays, and/or outright cheating, are either ignored, or given light slaps on the wrist. Until that changes, pro MTG will continue to encourage shady players and outright cheaters to get into competitve MTG and continue to drag the scene down past it's already laughing stock status as a "serious" tour.

If someone keeps walking past the tiger pit wearing steak underwear, after a while you stop blaming the tigers for attacking him. As long as rules enforcement and penalties for competitive MTG are a joke, cheaters will keep showing up and playing

I agree whole heartedly with what I bolded.

If we go back through every major event Saito has played in, how many of his 1-0-1 wins should have been a draw or a loss? How many of his 1-1-1 draws should have been losses? If you take all of this into account and view his record differently, is he actually just an average, or above average, player who found a way to artificially improve his record through a hard-to-detect method of cheating?

And this isn't even an isolated incident. This is his SECOND suspension from organized play and his THIRD disqualification from a tournament. There is, clearly, a pattern of (mis)behavior.

[punchbricks]

i'd just like to say that after reading his "explanation" i was more convinced he was cheating. seriously, what kind of an explanation is

"My opponent left one creature behind and attacked with the rest (He had 10 creatures on the board, I had 5 creatures, a tumble magnet and a contagion clasp) and I was thinking really hard about how to deal with the attack."

to me, he basically told us he was lying in that description. unless most of those crits entered the field on tht turn (which bc they were attacking we know they didn't) there's no reason saito should have had such a hard time "deciding" what to do. the crits were there for AT LEAST A WHOLE TURN CYCLE-plenty of time to figure out a solution or TO REALIZE THAT THE GAME WAS LOST AND STALL.


seriously, did he not notice the other creatures being played? i've played plenty of magic and i'm sorry to say mr saito, that the game state has NEVER changed too quickly for me to keep up with.

[FoxBat]

Originally Posted by Solaran_X

If we go back through every major event Saito has played in, how many of his 1-0-1 wins should have been a draw or a loss? How many of his 1-1-1 draws should have been losses? If you take all of this into account and view his record differently, is he actually just an average, or above average, player who found a way to artificially improve his record through a hard-to-detect method of cheating?
.

The bigger question is how many of *any* players wins are just the same, especially at the pro tables. How many players are getting away with things because maybe they are more cautious about when they cheat, that they keep just a little more distance from that line than Saito did, but still nonetheless lean towards stalling at certain times?

[whiteweenieruler]

Originally Posted by Solaran_X

I agree whole heartedly with what I bolded.

If we go back through every major event Saito has played in, how many of his 1-0-1 wins should have been a draw or a loss? How many of his 1-1-1 draws should have been losses? If you take all of this into account and view his record differently, is he actually just an average, or above average, player who found a way to artificially improve his record through a hard-to-detect method of cheating?

And this isn't even an isolated incident. This is his SECOND suspension from organized play and his THIRD disqualification from a tournament. There is, clearly, a pattern of (mis)behavior.

Going through his past top 8s, in reverse order:

GP Columbus: The notorious "reading Jace over and over" incident, though it should be noted that he finished with 43 points, while a couple people made it into top 8 with 39 points. No 1-0 wins.

GP Madrid: One draw. Hard to tell whether or not it was legitimate, would have finished 9th or 10th with a loss, which is still not bad in a 2k+ tournament. No 1-0 wins.

GP Oakland: No draws or 1-0 wins.

GP Melbourne: One ID. No 1-0 wins.

GP Kobe: One ID, one regular draw. Finished with 35 points, 34 points and his breakers would have been good enough for top 8.

GP Singapore: Two IDs, one regular draw. Finished with 36 points, with 33 also making top 8.

GP Atlanta: One ID, no 1-0 wins.

PT Berlin: One draw, didn't ID. Finished with 37 points, top 8 was made by several people with 36.

PT Copehagen: No IDs, no regular draws. No 1-0 wins.

PT Vienna: One ID, no regular draws. No 1-0 wins.

GP Strasbuorg: One ID, no regular draws. No 1-0 wins.

PT Yokohama: No IDs, regular draws or 1-0 wins.

GP Singapore. No IDs, no regular draws. Did have one 1-0 win (with UW tron, I think one can guess how that went)! Finished with 36 points, at the bottom of top 8.

PT Kobe: One ID. No regular draws or 1-0 wins.

GP Sydney: No IDs, one regular draw. No 1-0 wins. Finished with 31, all of the top 8 had at least 31.

Japanese Nationals 2006: One ID, no regular draws or 1-0 wins.

PT Charleston: Team PT, no overall draws or IDs, not sure how to look at individual results.

GP Beijing: One ID. No regular draws or 1-0 wins.

GP Matsuyama: One ID. No regular draws or 1-0 wins.

PT Atlanta: Had one team draw, again not sure how to look at individual results. Finished with 27 points, 25 made top 8.

GP Kobe: Team GP, one draw, again not much of an idea how to interpret individual results. Finished 4th with 25, next in line had 23.

GP Nagoya: One ID, no regular draws or 1-0 wins.

So in conclusion... while I suppose you can argue that Saitou wouldn't have been regarded as one of the best players of the last ten years if you assume that basically every time he drew, it was cheating (which is a silly assumption, but feel free to make it), but I think it's pretty obvious that he would have done exceptionally well regardless.*

*He may well cheat in other ways. However, the idea that he has mastered stalling to the point where it boosts him from being an average or pretty good player to an amazing one is, to put it simply, completely unsupported by the evidence.

[ThisSatori]

Originally Posted by whiteweenieruler

Going through his past top 8s, in reverse order:

GP Columbus: The notorious "reading Jace over and over" incident, though it should be noted that he finished with 43 points, while a couple people made it into top 8 with 39 points. No 1-0 wins.

GP Madrid: One draw. Hard to tell whether or not it was legitimate, would have finished 9th or 10th with a loss, which is still not bad in a 2k+ tournament. No 1-0 wins.

GP Oakland: No draws or 1-0 wins.

GP Melbourne: One ID. No 1-0 wins.

GP Kobe: One ID, one regular draw. Finished with 35 points, 34 points and his breakers would have been good enough for top 8.

GP Singapore: Two IDs, one regular draw. Finished with 36 points, with 33 also making top 8.

GP Atlanta: One ID, no 1-0 wins.

PT Berlin: One draw, didn't ID. Finished with 37 points, top 8 was made by several people with 36.

PT Copehagen: No IDs, no regular draws. No 1-0 wins.

PT Vienna: One ID, no regular draws. No 1-0 wins.

GP Strasbuorg: One ID, no regular draws. No 1-0 wins.

PT Yokohama: No IDs, regular draws or 1-0 wins.

GP Singapore. No IDs, no regular draws. Did have one 1-0 win (with UW tron, I think one can guess how that went)! Finished with 36 points, at the bottom of top 8.

PT Kobe: One ID. No regular draws or 1-0 wins.

GP Sydney: No IDs, one regular draw. No 1-0 wins. Finished with 31, all of the top 8 had at least 31.

Japanese Nationals 2006: One ID, no regular draws or 1-0 wins.

PT Charleston: Team PT, no overall draws or IDs, not sure how to look at individual results.

GP Beijing: One ID. No regular draws or 1-0 wins.

GP Matsuyama: One ID. No regular draws or 1-0 wins.

PT Atlanta: Had one team draw, again not sure how to look at individual results. Finished with 27 points, 25 made top 8.

GP Kobe: Team GP, one draw, again not much of an idea how to interpret individual results. Finished 4th with 25, next in line had 23.

GP Nagoya: One ID, no regular draws or 1-0 wins.

So in conclusion... while I suppose you can argue that Saitou wouldn't have been regarded as one of the best players of the last ten years if you assume that basically every time he drew, it was cheating (which is a silly assumption, but feel free to make it), but I think it's pretty obvious that he would have done exceptionally well regardless.*

*He may well cheat in other ways. However, the idea that he has mastered stalling to the point where it boosts him from being an average or pretty good player to an amazing one is, to put simply, completely unsupported by the evidence.

Thank you for putting in all the time to figure that out. Hopefully that will calm the discussion of hes a rampant cheater and he couldn't have gotten this far without cheating.

[khorn beserker]

Originally Posted by ThisSatori

Thank you for putting in all the time to figure that out. Hopefully that will calm the discussion of hes a rampant cheater and he couldn't have gotten this far without cheating.

I don't doubt he is one of the best players in the game and that if ever we played i would lose 100% rightly. What i do doubt is his integrity , his sincerity . honestly now how many times must a player read JTMS , and a pro player at that for the love of god ? Surely it has become apparent to everyone that although he is a charismatic and gifted player he is also ruthless and will cheat if he thinks he might lose .