[GP:Florence] Saito DQed without prize.

[Qwerty]

Originally Posted by khorn beserker

I don't doubt he is one of the best players in the game and that if ever we played i would lose 100% rightly. What i do doubt is his integrity , his sincerity . honestly now how many times must a player read JTMS , and a pro player at that for the love of god ? Surely it has become apparent to everyone that although he is a charismatic and gifted player he is also ruthless and will cheat if he thinks he might lose .

I dont understand morality in a game to win, for money, I understand the want for it, I consider myself honourable, but the huge majority of people will do wht they need to do and thats what modern society is.

IM not saying that cheating is good, im saying that, if people can and have got away with it, they will continue to do so.

[october_darkness]

I can recall a situation: I was at a PTQ, and this is when Spiritmonger was in "The Rock" deck. I was playing my "Rock" deck against an opponent, and we were tied at 1-1. We had run down the clock, and I kept reminding him that time was dwindling... and that I happened to be the first one to bring out Spiritmonger in the third round. I kept pressuring him to hurry up, but one of the judges gave me a warning not to rush him.

I felt I was in the right for doing what I did, and so I doubt anyone or anything will get Saito to admit that he was fully in the wrong. That's just my .02

[Valarin]

However, the idea that he has mastered stalling to the point where it boosts him from being an average or pretty good player to an amazing one is, to put it simply, completely unsupported by the evidence.

Stalling isn't the only form of cheating. Looking at those results, ANY of his wins could have been because he cheated in some way and wasn't caught. Players get the benefit of the doubt that they are playing fairly, but once it has been shown that you are morally OK with cheating, then everything you ever did is suspect, because you have proven you are OK with cheating to win a game.

Hence my opinion on a lifetime ban. I'm curious, what other "pro" level games out there allow a cheater to just be suspended for some period of time and then allowed to play a game?

I dont understand morality in a game to win, for money, I understand the want for it, I consider myself honourable, but the huge majority of people will do wht they need to do and thats what modern society is.

Which is why you need real repercussions. If you are caught cheating in pro sports, you are fined hundreds of thousands and are suspended/banned. If you get caught cheating in a casino, you go to prison. Saito gets caught cheating, and he sits out for 18 months, then comes back to cheat again if he wants to.

[ThisSatori]

Originally Posted by Valarin

Stalling isn't the only form of cheating. Looking at those results, ANY of his wins could have been because he cheated in some way and wasn't caught. Players get the benefit of the doubt that they are playing fairly, but once it has been shown that you are morally OK with cheating, then everything you ever did is suspect, because you have proven you are OK with cheating to win a game.

Hence my opinion on a lifetime ban. I'm curious, what other "pro" level games out there allow a cheater to just be suspended for some period of time and then allowed to play a game?



Which is why you need real repercussions. If you are caught cheating in pro sports, you are fined hundreds of thousands and are suspended/banned. If you get caught cheating in a casino, you go to prison. Saito gets caught cheating, and he sits out for 18 months, then comes back to cheat again if he wants to.

While I dint believe he was intentionally stalling, if you think he was yheres little proof of situations he could have benefited from. The many other ways he could have cheated, that's a totally baseless accusation. I don't think he was cheating by stalling but at least there are some accounts that could lead to that conclusion, though no games where he obviously benefitted.

[whiteweenieruler]

Originally Posted by Valarin

Stalling isn't the only form of cheating. Looking at those results, ANY of his wins could have been because he cheated in some way and wasn't caught. Players get the benefit of the doubt that they are playing fairly, but once it has been shown that you are morally OK with cheating, then everything you ever did is suspect, because you have proven you are OK with cheating to win a game.

Hence my opinion on a lifetime ban. I'm curious, what other "pro" level games out there allow a cheater to just be suspended for some period of time and then allowed to play a game?



Which is why you need real repercussions. If you are caught cheating in pro sports, you are fined hundreds of thousands and are suspended/banned. If you get caught cheating in a casino, you go to prison. Saito gets caught cheating, and he sits out for 18 months, then comes back to cheat again if he wants to.

Virtually all sports? Cheaters in baseball, cycling, hockey, basketball, football of the American and international varieties are almost always allowed to return to the game after a set period of time.

[Kraken B. Trippin]

Strange...here I thought the Pro Tour was supposed to be a mecca of super experienced players who know all of their cards and possible match ups for their decks inside and out before they even enter the event.

And yet it seems to be commonplace that games are stalled to a grinding halt because players don't understand certain card effects or how to deal with certain situations.

Don't you have to be playing Magic for several YEARS winning countless tournaments in order to even qualify for these events?

If that's the case, you should have proper knowledge of all possible outcomes if your that damn good. There's no excuses in my mind as to why any Pro Tour game of Magic should go to time.

[Valarin]

Originally Posted by ThisSatori

While I dint believe he was intentionally stalling, if you think he was yheres little proof of situations he could have benefited from. The many other ways he could have cheated, that's a totally baseless accusation. I don't think he was cheating by stalling but at least there are some accounts that could lead to that conclusion, though no games where he obviously benefitted.

He's been caught intentionally stalling, by multiple judges, on multiple occasions. He's also made very shady plays to try and force players to make mistakes and DQ themselves. He's proven that he's a dishonest player at best, and a cheater at worst. Nothing he can ever do can erase that now. HE made those choices and committed those actions.

Given that he has no moral guidelines to prevent him from cheating, and he's ben caught cheating, EVERY PLAY he EVER makes or has made is now suspect. Every game he has ever won is tainted, because for all we know, he cheated and got away with it. He craved for an edge so much that he blew his reputation, which is the only thing a game player has to ensure other players they are playing fairly. How could the DCI ever let him into a tournament again, and assure the other players he won't cheat them if they play him?

Allowing him back does nothing but reduce the confidence other players have that they will get a fair game, and encourage people to keep trying to cheat,since they know that even if they do get caught, all it costs them is a temporary time out.

No one forced him to cheat, it was his conscious choice to do so. Saito made his bed, he should be forced to lie in it for the rest of his career, not just 18 months.

[whiteweenieruler]

Originally Posted by Valarin

He's been caught intentionally stalling, by multiple judges, on multiple occasions. He's also made very shady plays to try and force players to make mistakes and DQ themselves. He's proven that he's a dishonest player at best, and a cheater at worst. Nothing he can ever do can erase that now. HE made those choices and committed those actions.

Given that he has no moral guidelines to prevent him from cheating, and he's ben caught cheating, EVERY PLAY he EVER makes or has made is now suspect. Every game he has ever won is tainted, because for all we know, he cheated and got away with it. He craved for an edge so much that he blew his reputation, which is the only thing a game player has to ensure other players they are playing fairly. How could the DCI ever let him into a tournament again, and assure the other players he won't cheat them if they play him?

Allowing him back does nothing but reduce the confidence other players have that they will get a fair game, and encourage people to keep trying to cheat,since they know that even if they do get caught, all it costs them is a temporary time out.

No one forced him to cheat, it was his conscious choice to do so. Saito made his bed, he should be forced to lie in it for the rest of his career, not just 18 months.

How do you know that anyone isn't cheating all the time?

[glurman]

Originally Posted by ThisSatori

While I dint believe he was intentionally stalling, if you think he was yheres little proof of situations he could have benefited from. The many other ways he could have cheated, that's a totally baseless accusation. I don't think he was cheating by stalling but at least there are some accounts that could lead to that conclusion, though no games where he obviously benefitted.

Because stalling for the draw will always, always, ALWAYS be more beneficial to you than a loss.

[mishima_kazuya]

Originally Posted by Kraken B. Trippin

Strange...here I thought the Pro Tour was supposed to be a mecca of super experienced players who know all of their cards and possible match ups for their decks inside and out before they even enter the event.

And yet it seems to be commonplace that games are stalled to a grinding halt because players don't understand certain card effects or how to deal with certain situations.

Don't you have to be playing Magic for several YEARS winning countless tournaments in order to even qualify for these events?

If that's the case, you should have proper knowledge of all possible outcomes if your that damn good. There's no excuses in my mind as to why any Pro Tour game of Magic should go to time.

We are only humans. You, me, pro players, everyone.

Being under pressure from prizes, time, judges, etc can really screw with your though process and all of us have that occasional moment where our brain completely blanks out on what to do next.


Anyways a translation of the blog I found
Regarding the One and a half year suspension and the cancellation of the Hall of Fame

Although I believe there are already many people who are aware of this, but I, Saitou Tomoharu have been suspended for one and a half years.

The contents of the email I received were: -　As a result of the investigation of the past warning history at GP Florence this decision was made intentionally made -　This is also taking into account the suspension in 2001 which was the result of a “malignant” act -　For 18 months, you are unable to participate or judge in any officially sanctioned tournaments

Recently I have been tremendously shocked. Honestly, hereafter, compared to the pain of not being able to appear at tournaments, now, because of this heavy decision, I have a strange feeling in my heart. In my own way, although I had fair play on my mind, something like this could happen. Also, concerning this part, I thought about it to some degree and I came to understand. Compared to the awareness of fair play, I became overwhelmingly attached to my devotion to winning, which I believe is the largest cause [… of this problem]. As a pro player, I hold a very strong devotion to winning, but I think that there is a large difference in the degree of awareness of fair play, and gradually it was concluded as such. Because of the accumulations of warnings and disqualification this time, this suspension has allowed me to comprehensively reflect, and from hereafter, for the sake of anyone who is continuing to participate in tournaments I am properly making notes.

[Devotion to winning] – [Strong awareness of Fair Play] = [Easily receive warnings and disqualified]

I think the largest parts of the solution to this equation that resulted in my disqualification this time were that my play became slow, and I received many warnings. I had an extraordinarily strong devotion to winning, but I didn’t have as strong of an awareness of fair play and that was no good. Although I am always in constant pursuit of winning, I believe that the degree of the part that fair play [would have played] [or lack thereof] has likely stopped (stunted) my growth (progression). At the professional level, as the degree and number of plays increase within a tournament level game, if the focus is on winning, what is required is more attention to fair play. That is what is said, however, it’s hard to quantify having the same level of awareness of fair play and that of winning because “the continual pursuit of fair play is important” and is something that I will settle and conclude upon. For me, I was halfway through this (en route) but was unable to follow through, and got the worst possible result, but if everyone who is intending to play in tournaments, above all, is able to follow this, then I believe you will definitely be fine. Regarding the pursuit of fair play, after further discussion amongst close friends, and understanding every nook and cranny concerning the rules, it seems I was able to do a lot. As I wasn’t able to do this […previously] this sort of thing took off (happened to me), but hereafter, I intend to utilize this in the future.

I have been suspended for 18 months and I was honestly unable to accept this fact immediately. Concerning the suspension, the standard [base] decision was not made publicly known, within that, at the own of accord of a pro player’s actions, it was decided to follow the same course of action as previous disqualifications. I later received an email concerning my removal from the hall of fame. Until now, I have been working and trying my hardest, and was very happy with the induction, although it is extremely unfortunate that something like this has happened, I believe it is the necessary measure that needs to be taken.

Disqualified, suspended, and removed from the hall of fame. Also, I can no longer acquire the title of POY. On these matters, to everyone that supported and cheered for me that I let down, disappointed, and inconvenienced in everything concerning Magic, I want to once again apologize to you.

I would like to say a little with regards to myself, personally, from here on out. Post-incident, there have really been a lot of people who have still been supporting and encouraging me through emails and comments. They have really saved me (helped me), thank you so very much. After a situation like this, I am very surprised to that people are worried or concerned about me. I was happy. However this joy exists at the same time with my apologetic and sad feelings and only enhances them. I can understand everyone’s feelings concerning this matter. That must be because of the expected contribution from Magic. If you contribute to Magic, because I strongly believe that you are helping to enhance the happiness within the magic world, at a time like this, I receive such gentle and sometimes strict (stern) words [… from everyone]. Thanks to of all of that, I am now fine and safe, and I am able to continue to progress forwards.

So then, why do you specifically continue forward? From now on, as a pro player, that huge bulk of time spent for practice, matches, and overall migration has now opened up. Firstly, the number one product (fruits of labour) of my strong feelings for Magic is “CARDSHOP Hareruya.” Here is where I will put all my efforts, power and work hard. Now I still have the same feelings and still have a lot of close friends here, and above all there is no mistaking that the most important thing that I have to do is support the many people who need me here (as a shop owner). I want to continue to do my best as the amount of smiles from my customers increase. As well, the staff at the shop front is also increasing. For an extended period of time, I have only been play tournament Magic, and since I didn’t have time until now, from here on out, I think I want to try and get back into casual Magic. Cube drafting, Winston Draft, Original Rule play style, etc. I am continually told about the “fun” associated with casual Magic and it seems interesting to me. Also, even though there have been a number of people who have told me that after a year and a half, I can still make a come back into the professional scene, I unfortunately have not yet thought about that at all. Even though I accepted the decision, emotionally, it is still a big shock. I will take this opportunity to carefully try and think about this. Also, I think that it is possible that there are other things I can do within or outside of Magic and I will be searching for them.

I have written about the things in my head concerning “From hereafter.” Every time I add more entries concerning the one and a half year suspension and removal from the hall of fame it doesn’t change anything, and in the end, the only things I want to do seem to be involved with Magic. Even though there are many other things I can do, thanks to Magic, I have learnt so much. However, after understanding what I want to do, all there is left is to actually do it right? Even though it is small, this is what I have come to say. Going forward, as of a result of this passage and what I have said to everyone, I want to work hard to quickly have these sorts of happy events. Once again, Magic people, as Saitou Tomoharu, please be kind to me. So I ask that everyone continues to further the Magic “happiness” for a long time.

[Valarin]

Originally Posted by whiteweenieruler

How do you know that anyone isn't cheating all the time?

Because players are given the benefit of the doubt. Absent any other information, it's assumed a player will not choose to cheat.

Once you break that assumption by being caught cheating, it is gone forever. Saito has proven (and then came out and said) that he cared more about winning than playing fairly.

[FoxBat]

Originally Posted by Valarin

Because players are given the benefit of the doubt. Absent any other information, it's assumed a player will not choose to cheat.

This would be the deeply flawed assumption.

To the extent in which sports stay clean of drugs, it involves proactive testing of all involved at high level competition. Not just those with a proven record of cheating. Not that this easily translates to the MTG context, but seriously, pros play to win, by whatever means the DCI allows, allow meaning whatever they do not punish. And you can't blame serious competitors for acting this way, nor can you hold a naivete that they would act any other way.

[BOP]

Tomoharu Saito’s status as a Magic: The Gathering Pro Tour Hall of Fame member-elect has been rescinded and he will not be inducted into the Hall of Fame at the 2010 World Championships.

From the mothership 08/12

[jeffbcrandall]

Originally Posted by BOP

Tomoharu Saito’s status as a Magic: The Gathering Pro Tour Hall of Fame member-elect has been rescinded and he will not be inducted into the Hall of Fame at the 2010 World Championships.

From the mothership 08/12

Hrmm, so does that mean he is going to have to go through the whole voting process and everything once he gets un-suspended? Im not 100% certain how that works, so I figured I would ask .

[Pringlesman]

Originally Posted by jeffbcrandall

Hrmm, so does that mean he is going to have to go through the whole voting process and everything once he gets un-suspended? Im not 100% certain how that works, so I figured I would ask .

I think at this point no one (and that includeds the dci) knows quite how to handle the situation with Saitou getting the boot.