This deck is sort of toolboxy (in theme with the general). It flourishes late game when there is lots of mana and recursion engines are in full effect It's not terribly weak against wraths (though I wouldn't necessarily call it strong against wraths).
It lives on the edge with cabal coffers in a bicolor deck, but I find that I can get urborg out easy with primeval titan or other tutors.
For 22 cards that have permanent removal in some way, the deck seems weak in that area still.
Also, looking at the list I would think that it is weak in card draw, but I almost never find fewer than 5-6 cards in my hand, and on good games I'll consistently have 8-10 cards in hand. Lots of mana and cards is where this deck is at.
The deck has a weak point in its recursion engines as genesis and sword of light and shadow are the backbone of recurring creatures. So if someone has plenty of graveyard removal and can easily kill off the sword, the deck can suffer. I've thought about upgrading that aspect, but I haven't had a huge problem with it yet.
The deck has far too much fat for EDH imo. So, it's ironic you're not playing the biggest creature of all, Lord of Extinction. But that's not a recommendation. Here are my recommendations. I've listed more than you need so you can pick and chose.
Personally, if I were running an indestructible general and three other indestructible creatures, I'd want to add Worldslayer for the win.
Given that you don't want to run an indestructible general, I'm not sure why you think you know you'd want to run worldslayer. The vast majority of Sapling decks don't run that card, ever thought why?
Given that you don't want to run an indestructible general, I'm not sure why you think you know you'd want to run worldslayer. The vast majority of Sapling decks don't run that card, ever thought why?
It's actually not that I don't want to run an indestructible general, it's just that I already have too many decks and two of them are this color combo. As for why people wouldn't want to run it, it makes for an auto-concede if you connect, and most people don't find that very fun. Then again, I've run into plenty of other nasty combos and wouldn't mind fighting fire with a nuclear bomb. Just hold it in your hand if it's a friendly game, but once they start shenanigans, nuke the board and start another game.
It's actually not that I don't want to run an indestructible general, it's just that I already have too many decks and two of them are this color combo. As for why people wouldn't want to run it, it makes for an auto-concede if you connect, and most people don't find that very fun. Then again, I've run into plenty of other nasty combos and wouldn't mind fighting fire with a nuclear bomb. Just hold it in your hand if it's a friendly game, but once they start shenanigans, nuke the board and start another game.
You found out why I don't run it. If I have to sit there for 11 turns swinging with worldslayer to kill someone, it's no fun. And people won't/shouldn't always concede, because over the course of that many turns, there could very likely be someone in the game who is able to play a plains and cast swords to plowshares or path to exile. Either way, its no fun for anyone, regardless whether you win the game or not.
The deck has far too much fat for EDH imo. So, it's ironic you're not playing the biggest creature of all, Lord of Extinction. But that's not a recommendation. Here are my recommendations. I've listed more than you need so you can pick and chose.
I understand that there's fat.....but there's no way I'd change the deck to add a bunch of small guys. Puppeteer clique is a good card that was in the deck once...but I didn't like the exile part of its ability. Volrath's Stronghold would be great if I was willing to pony up for it. Solemn just isn't worth it as a 4 drop for 1 land tapped when I'm playing green. Indrik stomphowler is nice, but I really despise having vanilla creatures once their ETB abilities are done. Gaea's Cradle isn't worth it almost at all. It really kills you at the beginning of the game if its one of a few lands you have, and in mid to late-game, you have enough lands and enough control from everyone else that cradle doesn't go off very well...not to mention it draws land destruction hate.
The rest of the cards are creatures...which is nice...but almost all are suboptimal imo. I have playtested nearly all of them at one time or another in several different decks, and none but possibly volrath's would be worth it in this deck.
Btw, not really lookin for suggestions. The deck is great as is and just wanted to post as a reference for other threads as well as a possible guide for others.
So it dies to removal is the reason you're picking not to run Worldslayer? I can understand not wanting to run it because it'd be unfun for your opponents to lose to and for you to win with, but when one card will win you the game (in black which has tons of ways of tutoring it up), why not take the risk that they don't have spot removal ready? You should probably stop trying to win with creatures because someone might run Terminate. Come to think of it, spells in general aren't worth deck spots because someone might be packing a Counterspell.
Better play it safe and just run lands. Ugh, wait... Stone Rain.
Even spikes don't run worldslayer because of removal. In a multiplayer format they just get teamed up on for running it and hence lose (not what a spike wants to do).
People don't play terminate or stone rain in EDH. Your strawman is terrible, artifact removal is abundant.
I wasn't talking about specific cards, but the general purpose of a card. People might not run Terminate or Stone Rain, but people sure play Shriekmaw and Armageddon. Just because I used ridiculous examples and heaped on sarcasm doesn't make Dies to Removal a valid argument.
Just because something can get removed doesn't mean it will. Hell, you can wait for the Green/White/Red (blue too if you don't want it to get countered) players to tap out then play a Worldslayer and swing, it's not tough. You act like if you run Worldslayer, that is the only strategy in your deck and you lose immediately if it fails to get there.
If people are attacking you specifically because you run Worldslayer it's probably because you win with it really often (meaning it's an effective strategy), or they're painfully casual and will target anyone that runs any sort of win-con in their deck.
I'm not using dies to removal as an argument against worldslayer. I'm using the fact people don't run it because it doesn't win games. You're theorizing, badly.
You are ignoring a large group of people who play this game, on the premise that "they don't count because their strategies are casual". People will attack those with mass land destruction despite what the multiplayer board position warrants.
Btw, not really lookin for suggestions. The deck is great as is and just wanted to post as a reference for other threads as well as a possible guide for others.
That's kinda what this forum is for, isn't it ?
If you're not looking to improve your deck or you think you have reached the pinnacle of deck construction and want to pass on your wisdom of all things Sapling on to lowly newbs, post it in the stickied "COMMANDER DECKLIST DATABASE". I suggest making a mini (or Full-size) Primer - I'd be interested to read it. I feel too many people just post a list and expect magic to happen. Give us some insight, man !
It seems like Clutchy has the most recent list up there. I'd love to see how your decisions differ.
Onlainari : I suppose your argument holds a little water. Looks like you've had a Sapling list up for May '09. So you'd probably know a thing or two from firsthand experience about the Sapling / Worldslayer issue.
Aye, I've had a Sapling deck since 2008. I've commented on about 20 sapling decklists since then. Worldslayer is always recommended by people who do not play Sapling.
The majority of Sapling decks are rock decks.
I'm trying to work out why candeewolf won't accept any suggestions at all. I know I listed a large number of them, but I had an expectation he would pick and chose any that he liked so I listed more than what was needed.
Can you link to the 'how to make primer' thread? I'm at work and finding it requires non zero effort sorry, I'm only browsing using my UserCP and subscribed threads.
Lol, we all need to calm down, take a deep breath, and realize everyone has different styles of play and opinions on cards.
@onlainari: I didn't take the suggestions to heart, because I don't feel that I need to change the deck. The only card I'd like to put in is volrath's stronghold, but I haven't felt the will to give up so much money for a land (even though it would work great with my general). If you want me to respond to each suggestion, I can. It's just that it would be a long post. I don't hold anything against people who run those cards and they might have decks that perform better with those cards, but nobody truly knows that and I don't care enough to try when my deck is performing so well already.
@burntgerbil: I made this thread as well as my other 2 recent ones (found in my signature) because I wanted to have access as a reference point for others when suggesting cards for their same generals. When I give advice to someone on Sapling of Colfenor, I'd like to also be able to link them my post and tell them to check out what I did if they are looking for suggestions. I also think its good to have plenty of new (2nd half of 2010 or 1st 2011) decklists out there for generals in the commander decklist of this forum. I forgot to post in it though for Sapling and Brion Stoutarm (one of my other decks).
I didn't make a primer for several reasons:
I don't necessarily think that all high and mighty of my deck, and to out of nowhere claim to make a primer without talking to other Sapling players on this forum is unjust, I feel. I understand Sapling very well, and have tried several different playstyles with him in the 7 months I've been playing him, but a Primer screams to me "This is the motha#$@%ing ☺☺☺☺ and you must read and take notes from it if you are to build a Sapling deck." I don't mean to take away from other people's primers. I've found several of them to be of great help and truly what was needed for each general. The fact that you've brought it up for me to do it flatters me and makes me seriously consider it now, but I feel that I'd need a lot more replies and responses from people saying how much it helped them when I give advice on Sapling.
Sorry, but that's not a response. I specifically asked you to respond to two cards, and not each suggestion, to avoid the very problem you've pointed out.
Ignore every other card, and explain to me why you do not think Magus of the Abyss or Fierce Empath are good cards for your deck.
Fierce Empath: I feel having both fauna shaman and fierce empath would be a bit overkill on tutoring, and I'd much rather have fauna shaman. One of the problems I sometimes have with the deck is too many cards that don't do board changing things themselves.
Magus of the Abyss: It's not much of a beat, and if its ability works well, it acts as a crontrol-type card and draws hate from the entire table, which this deck doesn't deal with well as a whole.
There are cards like these that might seem to work well, but there are 50 other creatures that I would have liked to put in. Some make the cut and some don't, and through playtesting the deck, I have figured out which ones should stay.
Creatures
2 Avatar of Woe
3 Butcher of Malakir
4 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
5 Duplicant
6 Engulfing Slagwurm
7 Terastodon
8 Woodfall Primus
9 Acidic Slime
10 Helldozer
11 Sisters of Stone Death
12 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
13 Darksteel Colossus
14 Spearbreaker Behemoth
15 Spiritmonger
16 Grave Titan
17 Chameleon Colossus
18 Vulturous Zombie
19 Pelakka Wurm
20 Primeval Titan
21 Oracle of Mul Daya
22 Krosan Tusker
23 Graveborn Muse
24 Fauna Shaman
25 Genesis
26 Eternal Witness
27 Decree of Pain
28 Plague Wind
29 Promise of Power
30 Soul's Majesty
31 Harmonize
32 Demonic Tutor
33 Primal Command
34 Kodama's Reach
35 Cultivate
36 Regrowth
37 Life from the Loam
Instants
38 Krosan Grip
39 Naturalize
40 Putrefy
41 Sudden Spoiling
42 Worldly Tutor
Artifacts
43 Sensei's Divining Top
44 Mind's Eye
45 Mimic Vat
46 Plague Boiler
47 Oblivion Stone
48 Basilisk Collar
49 Lightning Greaves
50 Sword of Vengeance
51 Loxodon Warhammer
52 Sword of Light and Shadow
53 Quietus Spike
54 Argentum Armor
55 Pariah's Shield
56 Sylvan Library
57 Phyrexian Arena
58 Survival of the Fittest
59 Lurking Predators
60 Asceticism
61 Pernicious Deed
Planeswalkers
62 Liliana Vess
Lands
63 Temple of the False God
64 Miren, the Moaning Well
65 Vesuva
66 Reliquary Tower
67 Dust Bowl
68 Strip Mine
69 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
70 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
71 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
72 Cabal Coffers
73 Bojuka Bog
74 Tainted Wood
75 Twilight Mire
76 Verdant Catacombs
This deck is sort of toolboxy (in theme with the general). It flourishes late game when there is lots of mana and recursion engines are in full effect It's not terribly weak against wraths (though I wouldn't necessarily call it strong against wraths).
It lives on the edge with cabal coffers in a bicolor deck, but I find that I can get urborg out easy with primeval titan or other tutors.
I recently took out Genesis Wave and Exsanguinate as I felt they were cheap wins when I'd pull em with a cabal coffers, vesuva copying coffers, and generate 30+ mana for the spells late game. I like to win with attrition rather than "boom, I win."
I also used to have cards like cream of the crop, abundance, necropotence, herald of leshrac, grave pact, kalitas, bloodchief of ghet., and beacon of unrest..but they either were too slow or didn't synergize with the deck enough.
For 22 cards that have permanent removal in some way, the deck seems weak in that area still.
Also, looking at the list I would think that it is weak in card draw, but I almost never find fewer than 5-6 cards in my hand, and on good games I'll consistently have 8-10 cards in hand. Lots of mana and cards is where this deck is at.
The deck has a weak point in its recursion engines as genesis and sword of light and shadow are the backbone of recurring creatures. So if someone has plenty of graveyard removal and can easily kill off the sword, the deck can suffer. I've thought about upgrading that aspect, but I haven't had a huge problem with it yet.
Tolsimir Wolfblood G/W
Cut
Asceticism
Avatar of Woe
Chameleon Colossus
Darksteel Colossus
Engulfing Slagwurm
Fauna Shaman
Grave Titan
Graveborn Muse
Harmonize
Helldozer
Krosan Tusker
Life from the Loam
Liliana Vess
Naturalize
Pariah's Shield
Plague Boiler
Promise of Power
Putrefy
Regrowth
Sisters of Stone Death
Soul's Majesty
Spearbreaker Behemoth
Spiritmonger
Survival of the Fittest
Vulturous Zombie
Add
Big Game Hunter
Cadaver Imp
Corpse Connoisseur
Creakwood Ghoul
Deadwood Treefolk
Dimir House Guard
Farhaven Elf
Fierce Empath
Gaea's Cradle
Gigantomancer
Hag Hedge-Mage
Indrik Stomphowler
Loaming Shaman
Magus of the Abyss
Masked Admirers
Ondu Giant
Pilgrim's Eye
Primordial Sage
Puppeteer Clique
Riftsweeper
Seedguide Ash
Solemn Simulacrum
Volrath's Stronghold
Wickerbough Elder
Withered Wretch
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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Useful Resources:
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Given that you don't want to run an indestructible general, I'm not sure why you think you know you'd want to run worldslayer. The vast majority of Sapling decks don't run that card, ever thought why?
It's actually not that I don't want to run an indestructible general, it's just that I already have too many decks and two of them are this color combo. As for why people wouldn't want to run it, it makes for an auto-concede if you connect, and most people don't find that very fun. Then again, I've run into plenty of other nasty combos and wouldn't mind fighting fire with a nuclear bomb. Just hold it in your hand if it's a friendly game, but once they start shenanigans, nuke the board and start another game.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
Useful Resources:
MTGSalvation tags
EDHREC
ManabaseCrafter
You found out why I don't run it. If I have to sit there for 11 turns swinging with worldslayer to kill someone, it's no fun. And people won't/shouldn't always concede, because over the course of that many turns, there could very likely be someone in the game who is able to play a plains and cast swords to plowshares or path to exile. Either way, its no fun for anyone, regardless whether you win the game or not.
Tolsimir Wolfblood G/W
I understand that there's fat.....but there's no way I'd change the deck to add a bunch of small guys. Puppeteer clique is a good card that was in the deck once...but I didn't like the exile part of its ability. Volrath's Stronghold would be great if I was willing to pony up for it. Solemn just isn't worth it as a 4 drop for 1 land tapped when I'm playing green. Indrik stomphowler is nice, but I really despise having vanilla creatures once their ETB abilities are done. Gaea's Cradle isn't worth it almost at all. It really kills you at the beginning of the game if its one of a few lands you have, and in mid to late-game, you have enough lands and enough control from everyone else that cradle doesn't go off very well...not to mention it draws land destruction hate.
The rest of the cards are creatures...which is nice...but almost all are suboptimal imo. I have playtested nearly all of them at one time or another in several different decks, and none but possibly volrath's would be worth it in this deck.
Btw, not really lookin for suggestions. The deck is great as is and just wanted to post as a reference for other threads as well as a possible guide for others.
Tolsimir Wolfblood G/W
1. Play Colfenor, tutor for Worldslayer.
2. Tooth and Nail into 2 Eldrazi.
Better play it safe and just run lands. Ugh, wait... Stone Rain.
EDH:
W Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
GB Nath of the Gilt-Leaf
People don't play terminate or stone rain in EDH. Your strawman is terrible, artifact removal is abundant.
Just because something can get removed doesn't mean it will. Hell, you can wait for the Green/White/Red (blue too if you don't want it to get countered) players to tap out then play a Worldslayer and swing, it's not tough. You act like if you run Worldslayer, that is the only strategy in your deck and you lose immediately if it fails to get there.
If people are attacking you specifically because you run Worldslayer it's probably because you win with it really often (meaning it's an effective strategy), or they're painfully casual and will target anyone that runs any sort of win-con in their deck.
EDH:
W Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
GB Nath of the Gilt-Leaf
You are ignoring a large group of people who play this game, on the premise that "they don't count because their strategies are casual". People will attack those with mass land destruction despite what the multiplayer board position warrants.
That's kinda what this forum is for, isn't it ?
If you're not looking to improve your deck or you think you have reached the pinnacle of deck construction and want to pass on your wisdom of all things Sapling on to lowly newbs, post it in the stickied "COMMANDER DECKLIST DATABASE". I suggest making a mini (or Full-size) Primer - I'd be interested to read it. I feel too many people just post a list and expect magic to happen. Give us some insight, man !
It seems like Clutchy has the most recent list up there. I'd love to see how your decisions differ.
Onlainari : I suppose your argument holds a little water. Looks like you've had a Sapling list up for May '09. So you'd probably know a thing or two from firsthand experience about the Sapling / Worldslayer issue.
The majority of Sapling decks are rock decks.
I'm trying to work out why candeewolf won't accept any suggestions at all. I know I listed a large number of them, but I had an expectation he would pick and chose any that he liked so I listed more than what was needed.
Seriously candeewolf, why not include magus of the abyss or fierce empath? Justify it.
@onlainari: I didn't take the suggestions to heart, because I don't feel that I need to change the deck. The only card I'd like to put in is volrath's stronghold, but I haven't felt the will to give up so much money for a land (even though it would work great with my general). If you want me to respond to each suggestion, I can. It's just that it would be a long post. I don't hold anything against people who run those cards and they might have decks that perform better with those cards, but nobody truly knows that and I don't care enough to try when my deck is performing so well already.
@burntgerbil: I made this thread as well as my other 2 recent ones (found in my signature) because I wanted to have access as a reference point for others when suggesting cards for their same generals. When I give advice to someone on Sapling of Colfenor, I'd like to also be able to link them my post and tell them to check out what I did if they are looking for suggestions. I also think its good to have plenty of new (2nd half of 2010 or 1st 2011) decklists out there for generals in the commander decklist of this forum. I forgot to post in it though for Sapling and Brion Stoutarm (one of my other decks).
I didn't make a primer for several reasons:
I don't necessarily think that all high and mighty of my deck, and to out of nowhere claim to make a primer without talking to other Sapling players on this forum is unjust, I feel. I understand Sapling very well, and have tried several different playstyles with him in the 7 months I've been playing him, but a Primer screams to me "This is the motha#$@%ing ☺☺☺☺ and you must read and take notes from it if you are to build a Sapling deck." I don't mean to take away from other people's primers. I've found several of them to be of great help and truly what was needed for each general. The fact that you've brought it up for me to do it flatters me and makes me seriously consider it now, but I feel that I'd need a lot more replies and responses from people saying how much it helped them when I give advice on Sapling.
Tolsimir Wolfblood G/W
Ignore every other card, and explain to me why you do not think Magus of the Abyss or Fierce Empath are good cards for your deck.
Magus of the Abyss: It's not much of a beat, and if its ability works well, it acts as a crontrol-type card and draws hate from the entire table, which this deck doesn't deal with well as a whole.
There are cards like these that might seem to work well, but there are 50 other creatures that I would have liked to put in. Some make the cut and some don't, and through playtesting the deck, I have figured out which ones should stay.
Tolsimir Wolfblood G/W
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