Back while I was still fresh to Elder Dragon Highlander (as Commander was known back then), my first deck was Sedris, the Traitor King. It was a decent build, won several games locally, and was fairly unassuming. My second albeit unsuccessful attempt at an EDH deck was a Malfegor EDH deck. I followed this up with a slightly more successful, Ob Nixilis, the Fallen EDH deck.
Once that was built I started work on what I hoped to be one of my better EDH decks. It would be a Red and White deck, of that I was certain, but what General I would use I wasn’t sure. I tried both Razia, and Agrus Kos, but neither of them worked. So I decided to switch gears and work with Brion Stoutarm. He seemed to be much more effective than the others were. And much faster at that. Ultimately however the deck was not as swift as I would have liked due to much higher casting costs at the outset. I simply did not know how to make an effective deck in this vein.
However recently with the help of Calibretto and a few others, I have modified the deck still further, and made it into a much more effective early game force, as well as having more utility factors with the creatures it plays.
Brion is something one would want to play when they want to be able to gain an advantage in the area of life gain, and to an extent creature utility and damage output. The deck can be both an aggressive deck, as well as a stalling deck depending on how one plays or builds it. Also depending on if you build it with a significant amount of threaten effects it can be quite devastating to your opponents side of the field as you steal their creatures and fling them at them.
The deck is not really ideal for those who prefer more control based strategies, and definitely not ideal for those who like a lot of tokens, or mana output. However it can be fun, and is one of my more favorite decks to play.
Card Explanation
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Phyrexian Processor has been excluded from this deck because in my opinion the creation of a body at the expense of life, simply to be tossed at an opponent is counter-productive to the over all strategy of this deck.
While Well of Lost Dreams has synergy with this deck, and I did consider it for some time, I decided that it ultimately was inferior to Mind's Eye.
Helm of Possession conflicts with the sac engines already present in this deck, and while it would be nice to be able to steal any creature on the field, it is not something I crave to be tossing my own creatures away for.
I purposely decided to omit Yosei, the Morning Star for the simple reason that I personally find playing against him to be unfun, and wouldn't want to be complained against for playing him myself.
Earthquake has been omitted because of the fact that this deck now has much smaller creatures in it.
I once tried Luminarch Ascension in this deck, and found that on the times that I did get it out, I not only would tend to win more frequently, but also became target priority number one. And that is not something that is fun to be.
Sunforger is omitted due to the fact that while it is nice to be able to tutor for instants, unfortunately the efficiency by which this card does it is lacking in my opinion compared to the other tutors in this deck.
I would love to have found room to fit Hoarding Dragon into this deck, but unfortunately I couldn't figure out what to cut for it, but it is something that I think this deck needs. The capacity to tutor for an artifact is something that is sorely missed in Red normally.
Skullclamp is another card I would like to have found room for, but unfortunately didn't.
Synergies:
This deck runs 14 cards that can be recurred with Reveillark, it also runs Karmic Guide to combo with Reveillark.
On top of that the deck runs Serra Avatar which combo's with just about every bit of life gain that is present in this deck.
I would consider dropping the following cards, because of your tendency to play multi-player (and in many cases, because there are simply better cards):
Kor Firewalker
Ingot Chewer
Hateflayer
Greater Gargadon
Dawn Charm
lightning helix
maybe catagory:
Cradle of Vitality
Gratuitous violence
Koth of the Hammer
My suggestions: Mimic Vat, this card will give you the wonderful ability to re-fling your guys. Which seems like a pretty good idea. Plus, you can fling your guy at another and then steal it with the vat
I have recently updated the list. The changes I have made to the list now encompasses a variety of the changes suggested above, as well as several "Enters the Battlefield" as well as "Goes to the Graveyard" mechanics and creatures to abuse things like Mimic Vat, Reveillark, and Brion himself. Since this is a casual deck, I suppose it is fine to post the changes in this thread. The deck is slightly different from the one I posted yesterday. Updated list is now in the opening post.
I think Ajani Goldmane may work in a life gain, monster throwing deck. One of my favorites for Brion is Glory since it allows me to swing with the monster to deal combat damage and then throw it. Not to mention it is also great for keeping creatures alive.
I can't believe anyone is excited about this card. It is absolutely unplayable. I wouldn't even play her in LIMITED. Easily the worst walker printed since the green elf one. Absolutely terrible.
I know you're not going to like this, but I really suggest sunforger...you can condemn an enemy general at a moment's notice, or remove anything worrying whenever you need to with return to dust/swords to plowshares. It's really worth slotting in there, I'm telling you...
Also, since you seemed to like it, where's your tithe?
and as someone else mentioned, kor haven is amazing.
I know you're not going to like this, but I really suggest sunforger...you can condemn an enemy general at a moment's notice, or remove anything worrying whenever you need to with return to dust/swords to plowshares. It's really worth slotting in there, I'm telling you...
Also, since you seemed to like it, where's your tithe?
and as someone else mentioned, kor haven is amazing.
I haven't had a chance to update this since obtaining my copy of Tithe, sorry for not getting around to it as of yet. As far as Kor Haven goes, I don't run it in this deck because I didn't really see the need for it... in fact if I were going to run a card like that in this deck it would actually be maze of ith because I have that card on MTGO (which is where this deck is primarily played for me) and I don't think Kor Haven is actually better than the Maze when you get right down to it.
As far as Sun Forger goes, I wish you hadn't brought it up, but in all honesty I don't run it in this deck because in all honesty I don't think tutors for instants that tend to cost more than said instants most of the time are at all efficient, and I personally value efficiency over reliability.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
I haven't had a chance to update this since obtaining my copy of Tithe, sorry for not getting around to it as of yet. As far as Kor Haven goes, I don't run it in this deck because I didn't really see the need for it... in fact if I were going to run a card like that in this deck it would actually be maze of ith because I have that card on MTGO (which is where this deck is primarily played for me) and I don't think Kor Haven is actually better than the Maze when you get right down to it.
As far as Sun Forger goes, I wish you hadn't brought it up, but in all honesty I don't run it in this deck because in all honestyI don't think tutors for instants that tend to cost more than said instants most of the time are at all efficient, and I personally value efficiency over reliability.
I've got both, and although both are good and are worth including, I tend to prefer kor haven because it doesn't slow your tempo down. Also it doesn't untap their creature, or prevent the damage being dealt to it, so you can feel free to stack block it and kill it without casualties. It's not a major favorite card of mine, but it is very functional.
Your complaint about sunforger doesn't make a ton of sense to me - I mean, demonic freaking tutor, aka possibly the best tutor ever, is basically "play any card from your deck, except pay 1B more for it". With a few exceptions, tutoring a card from your deck and then playing it is going to cost more than just playing it because you drew it. But tutors are good because they give you that reliability.
Sunforger isn't even much more expensive than, say, return to dust, and since it doesn't lose CA you can basically think of it adding a cantrip to any spell you cast with it. Is return to dust for 3WR with a cantrip of a pretty decent deal? I think so.
Mostly it's the flexibility, reliability, consistency, whatever you want to call it. sunforger is an amazing mana-sink in the mid and late game.
But meh, I mean it's your call. I've used the card in hundreds of games by now, and after looking through every card in the history of magic, it is my very favorite. it's a response to anything concentrated into a single card.
You cannot compare Demonic Tutor and Sunforger to each other because they work in completely different ways and provide completely different types of card advantage.
The only way for you to consider adding a possible cantrip to Sunforger effects is if you are using Mistveil Plains with it. And in that case your not spending 3RW for something like Return to Dust, but rather 4RW which is significantly more expensive than a normal return to dust.
Also, I have enough troubles getting 6 mana to do stuff with this deck under normal circumstances. Making sure I have a consistent 6 mana available every turn to tutor with on top of the mana needed to develop my board presence (another 6 to 7 mana, for a total of 12 to 13 mana) is going to be a pain in the ass. It would require me to cut several cards just to add in alot more mana acceleration, something I don't need at the current time.
The thing is, I really don't need a mana sink that badly for this deck. I have enough mana sinks as it is. I don't know, maybe I am just playing this deck differently than other people do, but I Tend to try not to over extend, but over extending is exactly what cards like Sunforger want you to do, because they require a creature to be on the field all the time that they are on the field.
Also should be noted, there is no such thing as a "response to everything" concentrated into a single card...
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
You cannot compare Demonic Tutor and Sunforger to each other because they work in completely different ways and provide completely different types of card advantage.
The only way for you to consider adding a possible cantrip to Sunforger effects is if you are using Mistveil Plains with it. And in that case your not spending 3RW for something like Return to Dust, but rather 4RW which is significantly more expensive than a normal return to dust.
Also, I have enough troubles getting 6 mana to do stuff with this deck under normal circumstances. Making sure I have a consistent 6 mana available every turn to tutor with on top of the mana needed to develop my board presence (another 6 to 7 mana, for a total of 12 to 13 mana) is going to be a pain in the ass. It would require me to cut several cards just to add in alot more mana acceleration, something I don't need at the current time.
The thing is, I really don't need a mana sink that badly for this deck. I have enough mana sinks as it is. I don't know, maybe I am just playing this deck differently than other people do, but I Tend to try not to over extend, but over extending is exactly what cards like Sunforger want you to do, because they require a creature to be on the field all the time that they are on the field.
Also should be noted, there is no such thing as a "response to everything" concentrated into a single card...
demonic tutor does NOT generate CA. Yes, they're different in function, but your complaint about sunforger was that "it cost more to use than to just cast the instants". My point is that ANY card fetched with demonic tutor ALSO costs more to cast because you used demonic tutor to get it. I'm not saying sunforger == demonic tutor...I'm just saying that your argument that "more mana for more flexibility is a bad trade" is fallacious, because that's the tradeoff you make with almost any tutor.
erm, you don't need mistveil plains to gain CA. it still wasn't cast from your hand, you never lost any cards to cast it (like normally casting a spell does). Mistveil plains has nothing to do with CA.
Also, adding mistveil plains is more like adding WW to the cost, because you need white to activate it and the land itself normally taps for white. I'm not constantly trying to plow everything back under - just when I need a particular card to cast again, or if I have mana sitting around right before my turn.
The nice thing about sunforger, mana-wise, is that you don't HAVE to use it every turn. If no one does anything that needs a response, you don't need to pay the equip cost again, and you can dedicate all your mana to other things. You only need to re-equip when you use it, which usually isn't every turn. Most of the time just having the THREAT of sunforger on the table will deter people from messing with you, if they know what it can do. So a lot of the time, it only requires keeping 2 mana open during other people's turns, not 5 per turn.
I have no idea what you mean by sunforger "wanting you to overextend". it requires a single creature on the field, that's it. How is one creature "overextending"? Hell, EVERY equipment wants you to have a creature on the field...does that mean sword of fire and ice wants you to overextend too? Not to mention, sunforger is aces at keeping that creature alive.
In your deck sunforger isn't a response to everything, fine. It doesn't need to be, especially not in EDH where you can't rely on it. There's no point to dedicating ~10 cards just for sunforger use. But with the cards you already have, it'd be an excellent fit anyway.
But that said, in a dedicated deck, It's a response to -virtually- any scenario out there. Honestly, give me almost any reasonable scenario and I'll tell you how sunforger could respond to it in a gutwrenchingly awesome way.
I am getting a little tired of all the theorycrafting here, though. Have you honestly tried sunforger? For a reasonable number of games? And played it well? Because I can tell you from extensive experience that is absolutely brutal in multiplayer, and I have a hard time believing you've given it a fair shot, especially from some of your arguments. You'll notice that just about everyone who's used it agrees in its power.
the difference I am trying to show between Demonic Tutor and Sunforger is that Sunforger's tutor ability has to be used immediately upon activation. Thus you need to be able to use whatever instant you search for. On the other hand with Demonic Tutor you can search for a card you plan to use a few turns later, or maybe even something you don't even really need but may decide to use anyways. The point is that Sunforger is 100% reactionary, where as Demonic Tutor is alot more passive in it's use.
As far as Mistveil Plains and Card advantage goes, what you ACTUALLY called it was "Cantriping" which in actuality to get that type of effect you DO need Mistveil Plains as without it you cannot recycle the card.
As far as the mana cost of Mistveil Plains in relation to what I stated, thats purely semantics. It can be referred to as 4WR or 3WWR it doesn't really matter because it amounts to the same effect. The only difference is that the latter is more exact.
No matter if you use it or don't use it, so long as you have it out you need to leave at least RW untapped no matter what so that you can use it in case you need it. That means you cannot use (at worst) 2 of your lands, or 1 of your lands if you have Boros Garrison in play. Either way it slows you down considerably.
Okay, here is what I mean by over extending. First off, what is the effect of the General of this deck? The effect is that it wants to sacrifice creatures to deal damage. That means for the General itself you need at least 2 creatures (the General and something else) on the field whenever you want to use its ability. On top of that if you plan on being serious about defending yourself you need at least 2 or 3 other creatures on the field at all times to protect yourself and attack your opponents life totals. Thats 4 to 5 creatures right there. Now assuming you build this field up over time, the way I do, then the deck is not necessarily over extending. But if you put them all onto the field in a matter of 2 or 3 turns, then that is over extending and can run your hand into empty really fast.
And yes. When I first built this deck, one of the first cards I put into it was Sunforger. I don't remember the exact package I was using with it (but it didn't include some of the cards that you suggest using with it due to price tags). But suffice to say I tested with it, quite extensively and found that I didn't really like paying what amounted to 5 mana for cards that would otherwise cost 1 to 4 mana to play, and which I drew quite reasonably on their own given enough redundancy in the deck.
Suffice to say I will acknowledge that in the right build Sunforger can be amazing. heck in 5 Color decks I would say it is probably one of the best tutors in the game. But I just don't see the utility of it in this deck.
Not to mention that my Brion deck has really taken a huge back seat to my Kemba deck at the moment so its not really that imperative that I work on improving this deck at the moment.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
the difference I am trying to show between Demonic Tutor and Sunforger is that Sunforger's tutor ability has to be used immediately upon activation. Thus you need to be able to use whatever instant you search for. On the other hand with Demonic Tutor you can search for a card you plan to use a few turns later, or maybe even something you don't even really need but may decide to use anyways. The point is that Sunforger is 100% reactionary, where as Demonic Tutor is alot more passive in it's use.
As far as Mistveil Plains and Card advantage goes, what you ACTUALLY called it was "Cantriping" which in actuality to get that type of effect you DO need Mistveil Plains as without it you cannot recycle the card.
As far as the mana cost of Mistveil Plains in relation to what I stated, thats purely semantics. It can be referred to as 4WR or 3WWR it doesn't really matter because it amounts to the same effect. The only difference is that the latter is more exact.
No matter if you use it or don't use it, so long as you have it out you need to leave at least RW untapped no matter what so that you can use it in case you need it. That means you cannot use (at worst) 2 of your lands, or 1 of your lands if you have Boros Garrison in play. Either way it slows you down considerably.
Okay, here is what I mean by over extending. First off, what is the effect of the General of this deck? The effect is that it wants to sacrifice creatures to deal damage. That means for the General itself you need at least 2 creatures (the General and something else) on the field whenever you want to use its ability. On top of that if you plan on being serious about defending yourself you need at least 2 or 3 other creatures on the field at all times to protect yourself and attack your opponents life totals. Thats 4 to 5 creatures right there. Now assuming you build this field up over time, the way I do, then the deck is not necessarily over extending. But if you put them all onto the field in a matter of 2 or 3 turns, then that is over extending and can run your hand into empty really fast.
And yes. When I first built this deck, one of the first cards I put into it was Sunforger. I don't remember the exact package I was using with it (but it didn't include some of the cards that you suggest using with it due to price tags). But suffice to say I tested with it, quite extensively and found that I didn't really like paying what amounted to 5 mana for cards that would otherwise cost 1 to 4 mana to play, and which I drew quite reasonably on their own given enough redundancy in the deck.
Suffice to say I will acknowledge that in the right build Sunforger can be amazing. heck in 5 Color decks I would say it is probably one of the best tutors in the game. But I just don't see the utility of it in this deck.
Not to mention that my Brion deck has really taken a huge back seat to my Kemba deck at the moment so its not really that imperative that I work on improving this deck at the moment.
I see sunforger's reactionary nature to be a very, very good thing. Think of the equip cost as the demonic tutor, and the RW unequip cost as the price of the spell itself. The only difference (besides specificity, obviously, that's why demonic tutor is good) is that with sunforger you don't have to choose which spell you tutored until you cast it. If you demonic tutor for responses (which one usually doesn't with demonic tutor, but it's just an example) you have to predict what you're going to need in advance. Sunforger lets you decide on the fly.
I still have no idea what you mean about mistveil plains being needed for cantripping...
Let's say you have the made-up card "return to dust with cantrip". you have 7 cards in hand. after casting it from your hand, you still have 7 cards in your hand.
Let's say you have sunforger and cast "return to dust" - the regular one. you have 7 cards in hand. after casting it from sunforger, you still have 7 cards in hand.
In both cases, the return to dust is in your graveyard and you have the same number of cards in hand as when you started.
What does mistveil plains have to do with it? cantrip (no loss of cards in hand) has nothing to do with what cards are in your library.
The total cost of equipping sunforger, using it, and replacing the card in your library is essentially 3RWWW, not 3RWW or 4RW. 7 mana, not 6, because you have to tap mistveil plains, which would otherwise tap for a white mana, plus the white mana to activate it. I wasn't nitpicking over colorless/colored.
I'm guessing that in brion you always keep R available anyway, to fling in reponse. So sunforger is only W more to have online. If you really need the mana of course you can always tap out, sunforger doesn't FORCE you to keep it online. After using it, though, I generally find it's worth it to keep it open. But it's totally your call.
I still don't understand why you think sunforger necessitates overextending. It only needs one creature, probably your general. It doesn't need you to rush a bunch of creatures onto the field at all. I understand what overextending means, but it has nothing to do with sunforger.
whether sunforger helps of course depends on your build, but i don't see so much redundancy that sunforger wouldn't be useful. Of course, it's better if you have a variety of instants to choose from.
My guess for why you aren't a fan is because you want to play this deck as more aggro, and sunforger is basically a control card. If you're trying to win in a hurry, then sure, sunforger probably won't pay off too much because you want to keep laying down more board presence laying down damage with your mana (although hey, still +4/+0 doesn't hurt). Personally, I'm a control player through-and-through, and sunforger is a control player's wet dream. My experience is that aggro is a poor strategy in multiplayer, and that control and politics is absolutely the way to win games. But considering the general and the colors, RW is generally going to be more of a fun deck than a competitive deck, so if sunforger isn't a good time for you, then that's your prerogative.
The total cost of equipping sunforger, using it, and replacing the card in your library is essentially 3RWWW, not 3RWW or 4RW. 7 mana, not 6, because you have to tap mistveil plains, which would otherwise tap for a white mana, plus the white mana to activate it. I wasn't nitpicking over colorless/colored.
That... is even worse... needing 7 lands as opposed to 6 is horrible. Especially when this deck only runs 38 lands total and in the average game only gets at most 10 lands out (15 if the game goes long). Keep in mind that this deck has no natural way to multiply the lands the way a deck with Green has. The closest it comes to this is Land Tax and even that isn't really the same thing.
I'm guessing that in brion you always keep R available anyway, to fling in reponse. So sunforger is only W more to have online. If you really need the mana of course you can always tap out, sunforger doesn't FORCE you to keep it online. After using it, though, I generally find it's worth it to keep it open. But it's totally your call.
I would actually have to be keeping RRW open assuming I have my General out. And if I have Mistveil out at the same time, I would need RRWWW. That is 5 mana I need to keep free in order to be able to use my General, Sunforger, or Mistveil Plains at a moments notice. That is not cheap. Add to the fact that if I do need to use Sunforger I would need to keep that much mana open plus the additional 3 mana used to re-equip Sunforger the following turn for a total of 8 mana. How am I supposed to be doing anything else other than equipping Sunforger, un-equipping Sunforger, and possibly flinging with my General if I only get on average 10 to 15 lands in a given game?
I still don't understand why you think sunforger necessitates overextending. It only needs one creature, probably your general. It doesn't need you to rush a bunch of creatures onto the field at all. I understand what overextending means, but it has nothing to do with sunforger.
Okay fine I will take back the "over extending" argument. However that doesn't change the mana cost argument for using Sunforger as well as other things I need to be able to do at instant speed in this deck. It is simply too cost intensive to be worth it for this deck.
My guess for why you aren't a fan is because you want to play this deck as more aggro, and sunforger is basically a control card. If you're trying to win in a hurry, then sure, sunforger probably won't pay off too much because you want to keep laying down more board presence laying down damage with your mana (although hey, still +4/+0 doesn't hurt). Personally, I'm a control player through-and-through, and sunforger is a control player's wet dream. My experience is that aggro is a poor strategy in multiplayer, and that control and politics is absolutely the way to win games. But considering the general and the colors, RW is generally going to be more of a fun deck than a competitive deck, so if sunforger isn't a good time for you, then that's your prerogative.
Yeah, you pretty much nailed this. I am definitely more of an aggro player. Occassionally I will play Aggro-Control (see my Legacy deck "Death and Taxes"). But for the most part I prefer more Aggro oriented decks. And while the +4/+0 is nice, it simply isn't enough for an aggro oriented deck. And the other ability is way too expensive for my strategy to be of real use to me.
I suppose it could be useful in the more control oriented Brion Stoutarm decks, but that is not what I am aiming for with my deck.
I will say this though. While Aggro purely for Aggro's sake is a weak strategy in multiplayer (I will definitely agree with you on this). It does have benefits. One reason I am focusing more on my Kemba deck at the moment is because as far as Aggro strategies go, Kemba is a way better deck than Brion Stoutarm ever could hope to be in my personal opinion. I especially think this is true of the Token oriented builds that can produce tons of creatures faster than most opponents can deal with them. To that end, I think Aggro has its place, the trick is figuring out a strategy that actually works in multi-player, and unfortunately I have come to the conclusion that a life-gain oriented aggro deck is just not efficient in a format like commander.
That... is even worse... needing 7 lands as opposed to 6 is horrible. Especially when this deck only runs 38 lands total and in the average game only gets at most 10 lands out (15 if the game goes long). Keep in mind that this deck has no natural way to multiply the lands the way a deck with Green has. The closest it comes to this is Land Tax and even that isn't really the same thing.
I would actually have to be keeping RRW open assuming I have my General out. And if I have Mistveil out at the same time, I would need RRWWW. That is 5 mana I need to keep free in order to be able to use my General, Sunforger, or Mistveil Plains at a moments notice. That is not cheap. Add to the fact that if I do need to use Sunforger I would need to keep that much mana open plus the additional 3 mana used to re-equip Sunforger the following turn for a total of 8 mana. How am I supposed to be doing anything else other than equipping Sunforger, un-equipping Sunforger, and possibly flinging with my General if I only get on average 10 to 15 lands in a given game?
Besides the whole aggro vs control thing, I think a big part of your problem with sunforger (at least in terms of theorycraft) is that you're looking at sunforger and an obligation, rather than an opportunity. You don't NEED to leave any mana untapped to use it. If you've got a great sorcery-speed play and that uses up sunforger's mana, that's fine. it will still be sitting there for you next turn. OPPORTUNITY, not OBLIGATION.
Mistveil plains, also, is very much optional. You don't HAVE to pay 7 mana to use a spell off sunforger. it still only costs 5. You just need 7 to play it a second time. In a sunforger deck, with cards that get incredibly good through recursion (orim's chant, for example) this is worth it. For a RW deck that just-so-happens to include sunforger, especially since you have a lot of fairly similar removal spells, recursion might not be worth it, and once might be enough. Then it's still only 5 mana each time. Even if you have the recursion package, if you don't think you'll need to reuse a spell, you don't have to recycle it. The extra 2 mana is an OPPORTUNITY, not an OBLIGATION.
In the same train of thought, leaving 5 mana open per turn is way more than necessary. For your deck, I would leave open, at most, RW, and a mistveil plains. If you need sunforger (again: you don't need to use it every turn, it can just sit there and let people know you CAN mess them up so they don't mess with you and you don't need to use it) you've got the mana available. If not, fling a creature and plow under an instant with mistveil plains eot. If you don't have the recursion engine, then you only need RW, and sunforger if needed, otherwise fling. Leaving mana open to do ALL of those things is way more than necessary. You aren't OBLIGATED to do all of those things, you just have OPPORTUNITY to. You should pick and choose which ones are going to be worth the mana: if you have no creatures to fling, you wouldn't leave R open. If you have no instants in your gy, there's no reason to leave mistveil plains open. If you've got a really good play, you don't need to leave sunforger open. You just CAN, if you want to, but you ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO.
I think a couple of the notable exclusions really really need to go in a Brion deck. Phyrexian Processor for one. This card is broken in decks that don't abuse it, and Brion definitely does abuse it. First off, you're gaining a ton of life, so paying the life is nbd. Then with Brion out, you get to fling huge dudes every turn and gain that much life every turn. So, you pay 20 life, then gain 20 life each turn after that by making and flinging a dude. It's ridiculous. It's literally one of those combos that will make you the target of everyone's hate but it usually doesn't even matter because you still win, or at least are better off than before you played it. Very powerful.
Helm of Possession is another great card, not because of Brion, but because in a Brion deck, you're playing a lot of creature-stealing cards and you don't always have Brion out or active to take advantage of it. So with Helm, you can play, say, Word of Seizing, steal a dude, attack with it, then sac it to Helm and get another dude permanently... then once you get Brion active, Fling that guy and start over again.
Lastly, Insurrection. Insurrection is Insurrection. It's like a legal Biorhythm. And that concludes my support for the above-mentioned cards.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
Once that was built I started work on what I hoped to be one of my better EDH decks. It would be a Red and White deck, of that I was certain, but what General I would use I wasn’t sure. I tried both Razia, and Agrus Kos, but neither of them worked. So I decided to switch gears and work with Brion Stoutarm. He seemed to be much more effective than the others were. And much faster at that. Ultimately however the deck was not as swift as I would have liked due to much higher casting costs at the outset. I simply did not know how to make an effective deck in this vein.
However recently with the help of Calibretto and a few others, I have modified the deck still further, and made it into a much more effective early game force, as well as having more utility factors with the creatures it plays.
01x Brion Stoutarm
Lands:
11x Mountain
14x Plains
01x Arid Mesa
01x Scalding Tarn
01x Marsh Flats
01x Tectonic Edge
01x Rugged Prairie
01x Spinerock Knoll
01x Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
01x Temple of the False God
01x Thawing Glaciers
01x Plateau
01x Sacred Foundry
01x Eiganjo Castle
01x Diamond Valley
Legendary Creatures:
01x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
01x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Artifact Creatures:
01x Duplicant
01x Wurmcoil Engine
Creatures:
01x Weathered Wayfarer
01x Stoneforge Mystic
01x Viashino Heretic
01x Imperial Recruiter
01x Goblin Sharpshooter
01x Kor Sanctifiers
01x Aven Riftwatcher
01x Anger
01x Avalanche Riders
01x Sanctum Gargoyle
01x Reveillark
01x Siege-Gang Commander
01x Stonehewer Giant
01x Karmic Guide
01x Archon of Justice
01x Baneslayer Angel
01x Hellkite Charger
01x Twilight Shepherd
01x Serra Avatar
01x Bogardan Hellkite
01x Greater Gargadon
01x Land Tax
01x Flickerform
01x Oblivion Ring
01x Cradle of Vitality
01x Marshal's Anthem
01x Angelic Chorus
Instants:
01x Condemn
01x Path to Exile
01x Swords to Plowshares
01x Shattering Pulse
01x Return to Dust
01x Miraculous Recovery
01x Word of Seizing
01x Comet Storm
Sorceries:
01x Wrath of God
01x Evangelize
01x Hallowed Burial
01x Akroma's Vengeance
01x Austere Command
01x Unwilling Recruit
01x Decree of Justice
Planeswalker's:
01x Ajani Vengeant
01x Koth of the Hammer
Artifacts:
01x Sol Ring
01x Relic of Progenitus
01x Sensei's Divining Top
01x Mimic Vat
01x Mind's Eye
01x Everflowing Chalice
01x Basilisk Collar
01x Lightning Greaves
01x Umezawa's Jitte
01x Sword of Body and Mind
01x Sword of Fire and Ice
01x Sword of Light and Shadow
01x Quietus Spike
Why should you play Brion Stoutarm?
The deck is not really ideal for those who prefer more control based strategies, and definitely not ideal for those who like a lot of tokens, or mana output. However it can be fun, and is one of my more favorite decks to play.
Card Explanation
While Well of Lost Dreams has synergy with this deck, and I did consider it for some time, I decided that it ultimately was inferior to Mind's Eye.
Helm of Possession conflicts with the sac engines already present in this deck, and while it would be nice to be able to steal any creature on the field, it is not something I crave to be tossing my own creatures away for.
I purposely decided to omit Yosei, the Morning Star for the simple reason that I personally find playing against him to be unfun, and wouldn't want to be complained against for playing him myself.
Earthquake has been omitted because of the fact that this deck now has much smaller creatures in it.
I once tried Luminarch Ascension in this deck, and found that on the times that I did get it out, I not only would tend to win more frequently, but also became target priority number one. And that is not something that is fun to be.
While I would like to have both Gideon Jura and Elspeth, Knight-Errant they are both omitted due to price tags for the moment.
Sunforger is omitted due to the fact that while it is nice to be able to tutor for instants, unfortunately the efficiency by which this card does it is lacking in my opinion compared to the other tutors in this deck.
Skullclamp is another card I would like to have found room for, but unfortunately didn't.
Synergies:
On top of that the deck runs Serra Avatar which combo's with just about every bit of life gain that is present in this deck.
Sample Hands:
Scalding Tarn
Shattering Pulse
Tectonic Edge
Kor Sanctifiers
Relic of Progenitus
Sacred Foundry
Condemn
Wrath of God
Arid Mesa
Oblivion Ring
Mountain
Weathered Wayfarer
Mountain
Condemn
Umezawa's Jitte
Plains
Imperial Recruiter
Bloodstained Mire
Mind's Eye
Eiganjo Castle
Sensei's Divining Top
Mountain
Akroma's Vengeance
Mountain
Mountain
Kor Sanctifiers
Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
Sword of Light and Shadow
Word of Seizing
Boros Signet
-1 Mountain
+1 Diamond Valley
NOTATION: Primer format borrowed from Miscalcul8edRisk
Quietus Spike should do.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyKor Firewalker
Ingot Chewer
Hateflayer
Greater Gargadon
Dawn Charm
lightning helix
maybe catagory:
Cradle of Vitality
Gratuitous violence
Koth of the Hammer
My suggestions:
Mimic Vat, this card will give you the wonderful ability to re-fling your guys. Which seems like a pretty good idea. Plus, you can fling your guy at another and then steal it with the vat
Insurrection. Really. Just use this card.
An Eldrazi Titan (or both of them).
Earthquake.
Viashino Heretic. Read this card, then read it again, then be happy I showed it to you.
Luminarch Ascension. This card gets really really dumb in multiplayer.
Kor Haven. Another maze won't hurt...
Mystifying Maze same reason.
Elspeth, Knight Errant. Most planeswalkers are good.
Gideon Jura One of the most annoying cards to deal with. Plus, you can fling him.
Magus if the tabernacle. Combos with War's Toll
Hope these help
thanks DarkNightCavalier for the sig!
My Trade Thread
Well of Lost Dreams Nice draw engine
Phyrexian Processor Nice body engine
Helm of Possession to steal
Kjeldoran Outpost Tokens are nice, plus it works well with Helm of Possession
Angelic Chorus Combos well with the Porcessor and Well above
Hoarding Dragon Nice Tutor + body to throw
SkullclampMight as well draw 2 when the creature goes bye bye+it combos well with Outpost
I second the Mimic Vat and Yosei suggestion. Brion shouldn't leave home without them.
Conquering Manticore - Treason on a 5/5 flyer
Thunderblust - Fling him twice
Also, since you seemed to like it, where's your tithe?
and as someone else mentioned, kor haven is amazing.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
I haven't had a chance to update this since obtaining my copy of Tithe, sorry for not getting around to it as of yet. As far as Kor Haven goes, I don't run it in this deck because I didn't really see the need for it... in fact if I were going to run a card like that in this deck it would actually be maze of ith because I have that card on MTGO (which is where this deck is primarily played for me) and I don't think Kor Haven is actually better than the Maze when you get right down to it.
As far as Sun Forger goes, I wish you hadn't brought it up, but in all honesty I don't run it in this deck because in all honesty I don't think tutors for instants that tend to cost more than said instants most of the time are at all efficient, and I personally value efficiency over reliability.
I've got both, and although both are good and are worth including, I tend to prefer kor haven because it doesn't slow your tempo down. Also it doesn't untap their creature, or prevent the damage being dealt to it, so you can feel free to stack block it and kill it without casualties. It's not a major favorite card of mine, but it is very functional.
Your complaint about sunforger doesn't make a ton of sense to me - I mean, demonic freaking tutor, aka possibly the best tutor ever, is basically "play any card from your deck, except pay 1B more for it". With a few exceptions, tutoring a card from your deck and then playing it is going to cost more than just playing it because you drew it. But tutors are good because they give you that reliability.
Sunforger isn't even much more expensive than, say, return to dust, and since it doesn't lose CA you can basically think of it adding a cantrip to any spell you cast with it. Is return to dust for 3WR with a cantrip of a pretty decent deal? I think so.
Mostly it's the flexibility, reliability, consistency, whatever you want to call it. sunforger is an amazing mana-sink in the mid and late game.
But meh, I mean it's your call. I've used the card in hundreds of games by now, and after looking through every card in the history of magic, it is my very favorite. it's a response to anything concentrated into a single card.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
The only way for you to consider adding a possible cantrip to Sunforger effects is if you are using Mistveil Plains with it. And in that case your not spending 3RW for something like Return to Dust, but rather 4RW which is significantly more expensive than a normal return to dust.
Also, I have enough troubles getting 6 mana to do stuff with this deck under normal circumstances. Making sure I have a consistent 6 mana available every turn to tutor with on top of the mana needed to develop my board presence (another 6 to 7 mana, for a total of 12 to 13 mana) is going to be a pain in the ass. It would require me to cut several cards just to add in alot more mana acceleration, something I don't need at the current time.
The thing is, I really don't need a mana sink that badly for this deck. I have enough mana sinks as it is. I don't know, maybe I am just playing this deck differently than other people do, but I Tend to try not to over extend, but over extending is exactly what cards like Sunforger want you to do, because they require a creature to be on the field all the time that they are on the field.
Also should be noted, there is no such thing as a "response to everything" concentrated into a single card...
demonic tutor does NOT generate CA. Yes, they're different in function, but your complaint about sunforger was that "it cost more to use than to just cast the instants". My point is that ANY card fetched with demonic tutor ALSO costs more to cast because you used demonic tutor to get it. I'm not saying sunforger == demonic tutor...I'm just saying that your argument that "more mana for more flexibility is a bad trade" is fallacious, because that's the tradeoff you make with almost any tutor.
erm, you don't need mistveil plains to gain CA. it still wasn't cast from your hand, you never lost any cards to cast it (like normally casting a spell does). Mistveil plains has nothing to do with CA.
Also, adding mistveil plains is more like adding WW to the cost, because you need white to activate it and the land itself normally taps for white. I'm not constantly trying to plow everything back under - just when I need a particular card to cast again, or if I have mana sitting around right before my turn.
The nice thing about sunforger, mana-wise, is that you don't HAVE to use it every turn. If no one does anything that needs a response, you don't need to pay the equip cost again, and you can dedicate all your mana to other things. You only need to re-equip when you use it, which usually isn't every turn. Most of the time just having the THREAT of sunforger on the table will deter people from messing with you, if they know what it can do. So a lot of the time, it only requires keeping 2 mana open during other people's turns, not 5 per turn.
I have no idea what you mean by sunforger "wanting you to overextend". it requires a single creature on the field, that's it. How is one creature "overextending"? Hell, EVERY equipment wants you to have a creature on the field...does that mean sword of fire and ice wants you to overextend too? Not to mention, sunforger is aces at keeping that creature alive.
In your deck sunforger isn't a response to everything, fine. It doesn't need to be, especially not in EDH where you can't rely on it. There's no point to dedicating ~10 cards just for sunforger use. But with the cards you already have, it'd be an excellent fit anyway.
But that said, in a dedicated deck, It's a response to -virtually- any scenario out there. Honestly, give me almost any reasonable scenario and I'll tell you how sunforger could respond to it in a gutwrenchingly awesome way.
I am getting a little tired of all the theorycrafting here, though. Have you honestly tried sunforger? For a reasonable number of games? And played it well? Because I can tell you from extensive experience that is absolutely brutal in multiplayer, and I have a hard time believing you've given it a fair shot, especially from some of your arguments. You'll notice that just about everyone who's used it agrees in its power.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
As far as Mistveil Plains and Card advantage goes, what you ACTUALLY called it was "Cantriping" which in actuality to get that type of effect you DO need Mistveil Plains as without it you cannot recycle the card.
As far as the mana cost of Mistveil Plains in relation to what I stated, thats purely semantics. It can be referred to as 4WR or 3WWR it doesn't really matter because it amounts to the same effect. The only difference is that the latter is more exact.
No matter if you use it or don't use it, so long as you have it out you need to leave at least RW untapped no matter what so that you can use it in case you need it. That means you cannot use (at worst) 2 of your lands, or 1 of your lands if you have Boros Garrison in play. Either way it slows you down considerably.
Okay, here is what I mean by over extending. First off, what is the effect of the General of this deck? The effect is that it wants to sacrifice creatures to deal damage. That means for the General itself you need at least 2 creatures (the General and something else) on the field whenever you want to use its ability. On top of that if you plan on being serious about defending yourself you need at least 2 or 3 other creatures on the field at all times to protect yourself and attack your opponents life totals. Thats 4 to 5 creatures right there. Now assuming you build this field up over time, the way I do, then the deck is not necessarily over extending. But if you put them all onto the field in a matter of 2 or 3 turns, then that is over extending and can run your hand into empty really fast.
And yes. When I first built this deck, one of the first cards I put into it was Sunforger. I don't remember the exact package I was using with it (but it didn't include some of the cards that you suggest using with it due to price tags). But suffice to say I tested with it, quite extensively and found that I didn't really like paying what amounted to 5 mana for cards that would otherwise cost 1 to 4 mana to play, and which I drew quite reasonably on their own given enough redundancy in the deck.
Suffice to say I will acknowledge that in the right build Sunforger can be amazing. heck in 5 Color decks I would say it is probably one of the best tutors in the game. But I just don't see the utility of it in this deck.
Not to mention that my Brion deck has really taken a huge back seat to my Kemba deck at the moment so its not really that imperative that I work on improving this deck at the moment.
I see sunforger's reactionary nature to be a very, very good thing. Think of the equip cost as the demonic tutor, and the RW unequip cost as the price of the spell itself. The only difference (besides specificity, obviously, that's why demonic tutor is good) is that with sunforger you don't have to choose which spell you tutored until you cast it. If you demonic tutor for responses (which one usually doesn't with demonic tutor, but it's just an example) you have to predict what you're going to need in advance. Sunforger lets you decide on the fly.
I still have no idea what you mean about mistveil plains being needed for cantripping...
Let's say you have the made-up card "return to dust with cantrip". you have 7 cards in hand. after casting it from your hand, you still have 7 cards in your hand.
Let's say you have sunforger and cast "return to dust" - the regular one. you have 7 cards in hand. after casting it from sunforger, you still have 7 cards in hand.
In both cases, the return to dust is in your graveyard and you have the same number of cards in hand as when you started.
What does mistveil plains have to do with it? cantrip (no loss of cards in hand) has nothing to do with what cards are in your library.
The total cost of equipping sunforger, using it, and replacing the card in your library is essentially 3RWWW, not 3RWW or 4RW. 7 mana, not 6, because you have to tap mistveil plains, which would otherwise tap for a white mana, plus the white mana to activate it. I wasn't nitpicking over colorless/colored.
I'm guessing that in brion you always keep R available anyway, to fling in reponse. So sunforger is only W more to have online. If you really need the mana of course you can always tap out, sunforger doesn't FORCE you to keep it online. After using it, though, I generally find it's worth it to keep it open. But it's totally your call.
I still don't understand why you think sunforger necessitates overextending. It only needs one creature, probably your general. It doesn't need you to rush a bunch of creatures onto the field at all. I understand what overextending means, but it has nothing to do with sunforger.
whether sunforger helps of course depends on your build, but i don't see so much redundancy that sunforger wouldn't be useful. Of course, it's better if you have a variety of instants to choose from.
My guess for why you aren't a fan is because you want to play this deck as more aggro, and sunforger is basically a control card. If you're trying to win in a hurry, then sure, sunforger probably won't pay off too much because you want to keep laying down more board presence laying down damage with your mana (although hey, still +4/+0 doesn't hurt). Personally, I'm a control player through-and-through, and sunforger is a control player's wet dream. My experience is that aggro is a poor strategy in multiplayer, and that control and politics is absolutely the way to win games. But considering the general and the colors, RW is generally going to be more of a fun deck than a competitive deck, so if sunforger isn't a good time for you, then that's your prerogative.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
That... is even worse... needing 7 lands as opposed to 6 is horrible. Especially when this deck only runs 38 lands total and in the average game only gets at most 10 lands out (15 if the game goes long). Keep in mind that this deck has no natural way to multiply the lands the way a deck with Green has. The closest it comes to this is Land Tax and even that isn't really the same thing.
I would actually have to be keeping RRW open assuming I have my General out. And if I have Mistveil out at the same time, I would need RRWWW. That is 5 mana I need to keep free in order to be able to use my General, Sunforger, or Mistveil Plains at a moments notice. That is not cheap. Add to the fact that if I do need to use Sunforger I would need to keep that much mana open plus the additional 3 mana used to re-equip Sunforger the following turn for a total of 8 mana. How am I supposed to be doing anything else other than equipping Sunforger, un-equipping Sunforger, and possibly flinging with my General if I only get on average 10 to 15 lands in a given game?
Okay fine I will take back the "over extending" argument. However that doesn't change the mana cost argument for using Sunforger as well as other things I need to be able to do at instant speed in this deck. It is simply too cost intensive to be worth it for this deck.
Yeah, you pretty much nailed this. I am definitely more of an aggro player. Occassionally I will play Aggro-Control (see my Legacy deck "Death and Taxes"). But for the most part I prefer more Aggro oriented decks. And while the +4/+0 is nice, it simply isn't enough for an aggro oriented deck. And the other ability is way too expensive for my strategy to be of real use to me.
I suppose it could be useful in the more control oriented Brion Stoutarm decks, but that is not what I am aiming for with my deck.
I will say this though. While Aggro purely for Aggro's sake is a weak strategy in multiplayer (I will definitely agree with you on this). It does have benefits. One reason I am focusing more on my Kemba deck at the moment is because as far as Aggro strategies go, Kemba is a way better deck than Brion Stoutarm ever could hope to be in my personal opinion. I especially think this is true of the Token oriented builds that can produce tons of creatures faster than most opponents can deal with them. To that end, I think Aggro has its place, the trick is figuring out a strategy that actually works in multi-player, and unfortunately I have come to the conclusion that a life-gain oriented aggro deck is just not efficient in a format like commander.
Besides the whole aggro vs control thing, I think a big part of your problem with sunforger (at least in terms of theorycraft) is that you're looking at sunforger and an obligation, rather than an opportunity. You don't NEED to leave any mana untapped to use it. If you've got a great sorcery-speed play and that uses up sunforger's mana, that's fine. it will still be sitting there for you next turn. OPPORTUNITY, not OBLIGATION.
Mistveil plains, also, is very much optional. You don't HAVE to pay 7 mana to use a spell off sunforger. it still only costs 5. You just need 7 to play it a second time. In a sunforger deck, with cards that get incredibly good through recursion (orim's chant, for example) this is worth it. For a RW deck that just-so-happens to include sunforger, especially since you have a lot of fairly similar removal spells, recursion might not be worth it, and once might be enough. Then it's still only 5 mana each time. Even if you have the recursion package, if you don't think you'll need to reuse a spell, you don't have to recycle it. The extra 2 mana is an OPPORTUNITY, not an OBLIGATION.
In the same train of thought, leaving 5 mana open per turn is way more than necessary. For your deck, I would leave open, at most, RW, and a mistveil plains. If you need sunforger (again: you don't need to use it every turn, it can just sit there and let people know you CAN mess them up so they don't mess with you and you don't need to use it) you've got the mana available. If not, fling a creature and plow under an instant with mistveil plains eot. If you don't have the recursion engine, then you only need RW, and sunforger if needed, otherwise fling. Leaving mana open to do ALL of those things is way more than necessary. You aren't OBLIGATED to do all of those things, you just have OPPORTUNITY to. You should pick and choose which ones are going to be worth the mana: if you have no creatures to fling, you wouldn't leave R open. If you have no instants in your gy, there's no reason to leave mistveil plains open. If you've got a really good play, you don't need to leave sunforger open. You just CAN, if you want to, but you ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
Helm of Possession is another great card, not because of Brion, but because in a Brion deck, you're playing a lot of creature-stealing cards and you don't always have Brion out or active to take advantage of it. So with Helm, you can play, say, Word of Seizing, steal a dude, attack with it, then sac it to Helm and get another dude permanently... then once you get Brion active, Fling that guy and start over again.
Lastly, Insurrection. Insurrection is Insurrection. It's like a legal Biorhythm. And that concludes my support for the above-mentioned cards.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson