"You are here not because of what you seek, planeswalker, but because of what you have seen. The unspeakable masters came for you, yes, and you survived. But, your mind became a reflection of their madness. Soon, it will become their tool, and everything you once were will be lost in fugue. Wake, and forget this place if you can. Pursue your pointless quests and your petty rivalries: you will see the truth of my words soon enough. Or, instead, heed my warning now, and remain in this terrible world. Descend into its endless fathoms, and grasp the secret that awaits you at the end of the abyss. Only then can you stop the nameless ones' march of annihilation, and only then can you save your precious spark from being quenched forever."
Qhunb'eg
Lost within the Blind Eternities, a realm unlike any other plane lies sleeping. Its names are many and also none, but during recent battles, demented planeswalkers have begun to speak of Qhunb'eg in the final seconds before they die. Some whisper of a benthic world, deeper than any ocean, a void of frigid water and darkness. Others say Qhunb'eg is the twisted nightmare of a thousand times and places, of dreams exiled from elsewhere and never returned. In this realm, fallen emperors reign over surreal lands, and saviors thought lost in the midst of wars countless generations gone still quest for their escape. Fragments from across the Multiverse float to the shores of Qhunb'eg, or sink forever into its depths. At its very bottom lies a secret that may spell either doom or reprieve for every other plane; only the brave and the mad will challenge the abyss in search of it.
Themes
The Depths of Qhunb'eg draws inspiration from sources including Christopher Nolan's Inception, Stephen King's The Dark Tower, and H.P. Lovecraft's The Call of Cthulhu. TDoQ indirectly continues and expands upon the story that began with Zendikar and Rise of the Eldrazi, though rather than focus on the Eldrazi titans, TDoQ explores a terrifying world that is mysteriously, yet inexorably linked to them. Similar to Time Spiral block, TDoQ draws characters and mechanics from other times and places, though this time not exclusively from the plane of Dominaria. An overarching "library matters" theme ties these ideas, characters and mechanics together. Exile, milling, tutoring, and basic / nonbasic sub-themes support the main "library matters" theme.
Features
Purple-symboled "Timeshifted" cards make their return in TDoQ. Unlike Time Spiral block, these cards never contain block-specific mechanics, and they may come from any block or set in the history of Magic. Many Reserved List cards will make their first retrun as TDoQ "Timeshifted" cards. Like Time Spiral, TDoQ will have a 400+ card set size to accomodate these extra cards. As a "library matters" block, TDoQ will also present both new and classic vanilla Magic creatures in a new way. These cards will have full-card art and the basic supertype - the first time this supertype has appeared on nonland cards. A deck can now have any number of any kind of basic card, not just basic lands. In addition to these features, the set features the following ability words and keyword mechanics:
Descent
Descent -- [EFFECT] as long as a library has twenty or fewer cards in it.
Fugue
Fugue X (Whenever this creature attacks, defending player exiles the top X cards of his or her library.)
Torrent
Torrent (While you're searching your library, you may cast this card from your library for its torrent cost. Then exile it.)
Some examples of full-art, basic cards are below. Other cards to follow in the replies.
Why call it a basic creature? There seems to be no need for that. You could just call it a Creature - [insert creature types] and make it full art if its vanilla. You're going to be rubbing some players the wrong way with it though, as there are quite a few players who enjoy reading flavor text.
EDIT: Missed the bit on being able to have any number of them. I'll hold judgement until I see how you implement this being relevant further into the set/block. I'd be very interested in helping you on this. I loved Inception, and am currently enjoying Dark Tower.
That said, I'm a big fan of mill. Always have been, always will be. That's one of my biggest concerns with the current standard. The only new mill card that's been any good thusfar is Grindclock. I do like your take on the "Fugue" mechanic. I've seen it attempted before, and that's probably one of the better iterations. My question is, how would a player block that?
EDIT: What if the fugue mechanic were changed thusly:
Fugue N (Whenever this creature would deal combat damage to a player, prevent it. That player puts the top N cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.)
or
Fugue N (Whenever this creature would deal combat damage to a player, prevent it. That player exiles the top N cards of his or her library.)
I don't understand why so many people are changing to exiling instead of traditional milling, unless of course you have an exiling subtheme, but you could reprint Narcomeba as a sort of punishment for the Fugue players. I just think traditional milling is a better idea overall. Anyway, this edited version of it would have interesting interactions with double strike, and would keep flavor if the player decided to attack a planeswalker instead.
"This is where they arrive: the lost, the forgotten. Something banished each of them to the Blind Eternities, but whatever it was, it pushed them too far. They crash here, in the dark roil of chaos, let go by the wings of the storm. Some, once they've seen the depths, believe they can just float back to the surface and collect their breath. They forget the terrors that prowl up here, lurking along the membrane between Qhunb'eg and nothingness. Of course, this is where you found me, so there is hope here, too. But, as you will see, Mho'ab-Chol rains down the husks of the unready to every world beneath it. The surface is where the sharks feast, and blood fills the water: succumb to its madness, and you will journey no deeper."
Mho'ab-Chol
Constant storms rage across the surface of Qhunb'eg. The Vothgul merfolk curse this place with the name Mho'ab-Chol, the Shore of Suffering. Beyond the churning clouds, glimpses of the Blind Eternities can be seen from here, shuddering breakthroughs to the Æther that spit out the unlucky exiled into the Qhunb'eg's watery clutches. Any who arrive or depart this place must pass through Mho'ab-Chol, making its waters ripe for predation. Lands both beautiful and twisted rise from the waves, then crumble to nothing minutes or hours later. On the Shore, nothing is permanent save for danger. Those wishing to explore the mysteries of Qhunb'eg must flee from this tempest as fast as they can.
The Vothgul
The residents of Qhunb'eg arrived from elsewhere over countless millennia, and continue arriving as Mho'ab-Chol collects them. For a thousand years, the Vothgul merfolk have made Qhunb'eg their home, making them one of the fugue plane's only enduring cultures. Gathering into fiercely protective schools, the Vothgul calculate the strength and intentions of new arrivals whenever they find them. Those whose powers are deemed to be potentially useful to the Vothgul may be offered safety in a merfolk clave, a heavily-guarded, yet artificial and temporary surface dome, carved out of the chaos of Mho'ab-Chol using powerful blue mana. These floating cities are the only respite from the tempestuous waters and vanishing lands of the Shore. Woe to the wanderers deemed by the Vothgul to be unworthy, or dangerous: those too wild to be controlled usually find themselves shackled, and tossed into the depths without so much as a word spoken.
Theme sounds pretty cool - go go mill block! I like the tie-in with the Eldrazi - it would be good to see their psyche-disturbing side brought out more.
Timeshifted cards - Well, really these are more placeshifted than timeshifted, but the purple symbol should work nonetheless.
Basic - Nice execution there. Be careful what is made Basic though. A deck full of Elite Vanguard could get quite degenerate.
Descent - This requires a fair bit of counting and keeping track of something - for both you and your opponent = that you wouldn't normally consider. Threshold faced a similar problem though on a lesser scale. This mechanic would have better luck in MtGO as it automatically counts. Also, consider formats such as limited which typically have 40 card decks.
Fugue N - Regular milling looks better than exiling as it puts things in a more user-friendly zone. Exiled stuff is typically untouchable which means less interactivity. Trancebarn's ideas are good because that means you win via mill rather than the damage caused by the Fugue creatures.
Torrent - What about Panglacial Wurm's ability? You generally have to pay a bit to search your library in the first place, so no need to up Torrent costs over mana costs.
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When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
Basic - Nice execution there. Be careful what is made Basic though. A deck full of Elite Vanguard could get quite degenerate.
Thanks. I did think of this, which is why you see a Savannah Lions knockoff instead of the Vanguard. Like anything else, I want a combination of both playability and chaff represented here. I'm planning cards that interact with basic permanents, to raise up the level of the chaff, I just haven't finalized any designs yet. Hopefully I'll post them later today or tomorrow.
Quote from trancebam »
I don't understand why so many people are changing to exiling instead of traditional milling
I can't speak for everybody else, but for me, it's the same reason WotC won't reprint Leeches in SoM block. I absolutely agree that graveyard mill is generally the way to go, because it provides more points of interaction. But, supporting mill as a block theme, I don't want the wincon to be so easy to undo. Also, some of my mechanics (torrent, for starters) really demand exile. I want to be consistent. Also also, I want to be absolutely clear that this is a library block and not another graveyard block. I don't want to open the door for runaway graveyard effects, and I don't want to have to print a bunch of graveyardhosingeffects to support the primary mill theme.
Quote from viridiancircle »
Torrent - What about Panglacial Wurm's ability? You generally have to pay a bit to search your library in the first place, so no need to up Torrent costs over mana costs.
Panglacial Wurm was the direct inspiration for this ability. I didn't just go with Panglacial Wurm's wording because I want a knob to tweak. Not all of the torrent costs are going to be greater than their respective mana costs. Also, there is some truly cheap library searching out there. An oversimplified answer is that broadly-applicable spells (like my Lightning Roil, above) are going to cost a bit more than their mana cost, while more narrow spells (ex. hosers) will probably cost equal or a bit less.
Glad you guys are intrigued, and I will post more cards ASAP.
I can't speak for everybody else, but for me, it's the same reason WotC won't reprint Leeches in SoM block. I absolutely agree that graveyard mill is generally the way to go, because it provides more points of interaction. But, supporting mill as a block theme, I don't want the wincon to be so easy to undo. Also, some of my mechanics (torrent, for starters) really demand exile. I want to be consistent. Also also, I want to be absolutely clear that this is a library block and not another graveyard block. I don't want to open the door for runaway graveyard effects, and I don't want to have to print a bunch of graveyardhosingeffects to support the primary mill theme.
Ah, I see. So you want to make your preferred wincon as difficult to stop as possible via exile. The problem with that is then there's not really a way to counteract your ability. Part of what makes mill so fun to play is that there are players that like to play out of their graveyard, and when you run into those players, you're almost helping them in their strategy.
And just because one of your mechanics demands exile doesn't mean this one should. Take Unearth for instance. It returns a creature for a turn, then exiles it. Devour doesn't exile the creatures that get devoured. Why should it? Then it wouldn't interact well with Unearth. Do you see what I'm getting at?
Take a look at poison. While there isn't a way to directly remove poison counters, there are a few ways to counteract the creatures that make them. There's the Tatterkite effect. There's Platinum Angel. There are +1/+1 counters. Part of designing your ability is designing it so that it can be somewhat easily overcome, and then designing other cards to preempt those cards, and then other cards to preempt those cards...otherwise it becomes a game of "I'm going to win because I have more cards in my library than you, and I went first."
"What tales do the fish-people tell, planeswalker? That Qhunb'eg is simply a thousand leagues of nothing, straight down into the abyss? Such pretty, pretty lies! But, it is no matter. You belong to the master now, paid in full. That gill-necked devil asked a sweet price for you, too. I promise, he received all that he asked, and more. The master thinks your spark is... rich, planeswalker. Rich, and sticky with potential. So, he plans to give you a most special errand. Yes, please touch the statue. So smooth and warm to the touch, is it not? We have dozens just like it. What is this errand, you ask? Just take a look around you. See this beautiful courtyard... so fine its mists, so rare its herbage. See his glorious manor, and the streets beyond. It is all lost! Cheated from its rightful eminence, along with our master, by that thrice-damned Ghost Council. You are to help the master return us to our home. You must pull this place from the void before we sink any deeper. There is business we must settle with the Syndicate, and we have waited too long already. Should you fail, well... the statues are lifelike, are they not?"
The Newly Lost
Those who survive the surface storms long enough to plunge into Qhunb'eg's waters soon discover a different, more unsettling kind of horror. Countless reveries, or dream-pockets, sink slowly downwards into the darkening seas. These reveries may be exiled lands, drowned by the hands of their enemies, or may be minor worlds wholly-carved by the chisels of their creators' nightmares. To find these reveries, the seeker must navigate Qhunb'eg's turbulent undercurrents, and must remember the axiom that everything sinks. The shallows, then, are rife with innumerable newly-banished, each still clinging to their worldly ambitions and the improbable hope of escape. Although their motivations differ, both the righteous and the wicked among the lost are united in their desperation. Every visitor is another chance for these dream lords to strike out once again for home, to rekindle hope, or to enact their bitter revenge. Wanderers find themselves enlisted as pawns in these lords' personal games, or, if the fugue's pull is strong, carving out a doomed reverie of their own.
Planar Amnesia
The time-stained oceans care not from whence their prisoners come. Ravnica and Shandalar, Wildfire and Dominaria all offer up dregs for Qhunb'eg's bitter broth. Some masters of reverie swim astride the waters like leviathans, setting forth for others' dreams to take them over or annihilate them. Some of the dream worlds are treasure chests of lost magic, once powerful on their home planes, but since forgotten. These riches often entice the adventurous, who seek to recapture this lost power and loosen it from its descent into the forgotten depths. The legacies of the Multiverse meet here and intertwine as they spiral downward into even darker realms.
I have to be honest, I don't like the Basic Creatures idea. Not because I think it's too good, if anything I think it will be irrelevant. I think it is an unecessary gimick that doesn't contribute to your library matters theme. I love Fugue on Black and Blue cards, some Red. Please no white or Green. I like the idea of it being like infect, have the creature deal damage as card mill.
As is being discussed in The Psychology of Mill Thread, many player hate Mill whichc is something you would have to address. I like the idea of milling from the bottom as a simple way to avoid feeling like you lost the cards in question.
Descent is too hard to track and will slow games down too much.
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I think it is an unecessary gimick that doesn't contribute to your library matters theme.
"Basic" is fundamentally a library-matters mechanic. It changes the parameters for deck construction (see: library construction). It means you could run a deck that consisted of two cards: Plains and Brush Lions. This falls under the purview of what I am trying to accomplish in this library block; the block is not just about mill. Wait until I flesh out green a bit in future posts.
I love Fugue on Black and Blue cards, some Red.
Thanks.
Please no white or Green.
It's and with some bleed into and :symw:. There will be no fugue in :symg:. Green is explicitly anti-fugue (see Marisi, above, for one example). I haven't posted any really heavy-hitting fugue creatures yet, but when I do, they will be rare, and they will be in blue and black only.
I like the idea of it being like infect, have the creature deal damage as card mill.
Considered it; rejected it. Not that it can't be done, but because I don't want it to play like infect. I want the mill to be not just un-reversible, but mostly un-preventable. This is because I am pushing control very hard here and I want removal to be imperative. Sounds a bit counter-intuitive perhaps, but I'm working on it.
As is being discussed in The Psychology of Mill Thread, many player hate Mill whichc is something you would have to address. I like the idea of milling from the bottom as a simple way to avoid feeling like you lost the cards in question.
Please refer to my comments in that thread, which address these points.
Descent is too hard to track and will slow games down too much.
I disagree, but more importantly, I don't care that much. I will pretend like I'm in Wizards R&D for as long as the criticism is constructive, but in the end, I'm making an expert-level set for expert-level players. To illustrate the problem, I love Time Spiral block and WotC sees it as one of their biggest mistakes. So, I'm not trying to do what Magic R&D would do - I'm doing what I think hardcore, veteran Magic players want WotC to provide, even if WotC won't. I'm not averse to counting to twenty.
As long as the block is "expert level" and dosen't need to appeal to new players then I'd say descent is no problem at all, I like it.
I still have to say that I see why you want mill as inevitible but an inevitble wincon is a boring wincon, especially for Expert level players. I've made more points on this in one of the other threads where you posted cards.
It's not my set so in the end obviously you do what you want but please seriously consider my points about the mill wincon. It's fun, but it needs to be interactive and relevant to both control and aggro. I LOVE the feel of your setting and would like to play these cards when they are done.
Lastly I'll say again just to reiterate, be careful with pushing control. It's already the more powerful play style and dosen't need help.
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Considered it; rejected it. Not that it can't be done, but because I don't want it to play like infect. I want the mill to be not just un-reversible, but mostly un-preventable. This is because I am pushing control very hard here and I want removal to be imperative. Sounds a bit counter-intuitive perhaps, but I'm working on it.
So I was right. In other words, this is going to be a very boring set to play with. You need to change it. Making fugue virtually unpreventable is a poor choice. Then, not only do you make it impossible to block the mill on the attack, you also make it near impossible to work with the cards that were milled, as they're exiled. Poor choices. I want to be able to play with the cards that I have in my deck, and making a mechanic that strips away any reasonable way to defend against it is not fun in any way. This is coming from someone who loves mill. Your mechanic is bad.
So I was right. In other words, this is going to be a very boring set to play with. You need to change it. Making fugue virtually unpreventable is a poor choice. Then, not only do you make it impossible to block the mill on the attack, you also make it near impossible to work with the cards that were milled, as they're exiled. Poor choices. I want to be able to play with the cards that I have in my deck, and making a mechanic that strips away any reasonable way to defend against it is not fun in any way. This is coming from someone who loves mill. Your mechanic is bad.
OK, there are two possibilities here. The first is that you have no idea what you're talking about. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, however, so let's go with option number two. The second possibility is that I have not been clear enough / not sold the mechanic hard enough. So, let me put on my salesman hat and try again.
[salesman hat]Fugue is designed to shift the pivotal action of battle to a different place than any other Magic set. Fugue presents a unique threat: one that your opponents are unable to prevent once combat begins. Instead, they must eliminate your creature before battle, or decide to engage your creatures this turn to prevent the threat from afflicting them in future turns. Fugue forces your opponent to make combat choices based on long-term factors. If your opponent waits for you to strike, it is already too late.
Does using fugue guarantee you victory? No. Defeating your opponent using fugue means that you have a much bigger objective than a mere life total. Your opponent will have many opportunities to thwart you before you are able to whittle away the cards from his or her library. The benefits of quick payoff are balanced out by the challenge of waging a longer battle. In order to win with fugue, you must be crafty and controlling. In order to stop you, your opponents must be equally so.[/salesman hat]
I could expound on my formative thinking about this set, but really, I'm just going to have to show you through cards what it is all about. This is a very different kind of environment than anything in recent Magic history. It might help to see fugue as a baseline threat, a clock running in the background, with the real back and forth of the interaction in this environment taking place through counterspells, removal, and other control factors. To use some boxing comparisons, it's going to be like Muhammad Ali outlasting his opponents for many rounds, rather than Mike Tyson rushing in for the knockout in the first thirty seconds. Magic has become a lot more like Mike Tyson than Muhammad Ali. I'm trying to change that in this environment.
Ok salesman, I'm willing to get on board with Fugue. I'm still not sure it's as good as the other way but it's not bad enough to make me dislike the set.
The thing that concerns me most is the way you keep saying "bring control back" when control is the dominant archetype. I'm fine with a set that has good control, but that means aggro needs to get responses to that control (for the record Fugue is an aggro strategy not a control one). I'd like to see more green and red cards from the set, show me what they can do with torrent and basic creatures!
Well wishes man I want to see this set happen!
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Thanks for being on board. More cards today, I promise.
Fugue is an aggro strategy, but it's working on a different plane than other aggro strategies, so it's not a direct apples to apples comparison. I want the environment to be slow. I want to dial back the creature power creep of the last five years. But I want to do it in an awesome way, not just by whacking my set with the gimp-hammer.
So, I'm really just trying to find ways to emphasize the ticking clock aspect of fugue. Yes, there will be ways to speed up the clock, but I want those to be somewhat marginal strategies. I want the question that determines the match to be, "Did you manage your resources well, and evolve your strategies to match your opponent's?", not, "Did you dump your opening hand into the red zone the quickest?"
That's totally fine. Aggro dosen't need to be fast, it just needs to have a chance. If control is always able to slow the game down to the point where it plays cards aggro can't answer, then you have a misbalance. If the whole meta just runs slower do to the lack of 5+ power critters and effects such as Overrun or Battlecry, that's fine. Aggro needs to be able to win earlier than control. Period. Whether thats turn 3 or turn 8 isn't important to balance, only to feel.
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The arrow is just the sort of thing this set needs...now don't forget to give green some library search.
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"People with needs have trivial purchasing power while people with purchasing power have trivial needs." -Steve Randy Waldman, Interfludity
Love the concept of a dreamlike, Cthulhu-esque vertical world, and the creepy little snippets of flavor. Don't really care for the mechanics, but we'll see.
Fugue as an aggro strategy seems it'll work as well as non-General damage as an EDH strategy, which is to say, not well. Even disregarding the lack of "lifegain" and opponents "losing life" to draw cards, long games are still going to result in opponents having more lands in play to cast their big spells and more time to set up their cards which hose you completely (DOJ, Moat, etc). How does fugue deal with this? Yes, you could play your own big spells or disruption for their anti-aggro, but if you're not clocking them every turn you may as well just play ramp or control.
Also interesting that fugue is main-blue and non-green, when their traditional aggro/control makeup would suggest the opposite.
Ferryman: Memoricide is already pretty good. Does it really need an easily recurrable 2/2 body tacked on for a marginally more difficult mana cost?
Deserter: What's wrong with "is attacking"? If you're going to Maze of Ith your own creature to not mill yourself, fine by me.
Nautilus Shield: Nice design, surprised it hasn't been thought of yet.
Pearl-Tongue: What's the point of this card? While "lose control" includes it moving to a different zone, having a creature enter the battlefield under your control doesn't create a control-changing effect, and I'm not aware of any card that interprets "gain control" differently.
When something enters the battlefield under your control you gain control of it.
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Love the concept of a dreamlike, Cthulhu-esque vertical world, and the creepy little snippets of flavor. Don't really care for the mechanics, but we'll see.
Glad I've got you on board for part of it. Everything is a work in progress. I hope that when it's finished, you like the mechanics just as much.
Also interesting that fugue is main-blue and non-green, when their traditional aggro/control makeup would suggest the opposite.
Deliberate on my part. A couple months ago, I posted a MUA and an MGC thread in the main CCC forum. Using the feedback from that, I am trying to reverse the usual roles in this set: blue aggro, green control. What I've posted so far is just the tip of the iceberg for what I'm planning.
Ferryman: Memoricide is already pretty good. Does it really need an easily recurrable 2/2 body tacked on for a marginally more difficult mana cost?
This guy is a heavy. By that, I mean, I currently expect him to be one of the chasest rares in the set. This being a control-focused set, the heavies are going to look more like the Ferryman and less like this. If he ends up being too good, I'll dial him back, but I want him to be a significant Constructed metagame consideration.
Deserter: What's wrong with "is attacking"? If you're going to Maze of Ith your own creature to not mill yourself, fine by me.
Either wording is technically correct. Clockwork creatures use my wording, so I'm using that template. I think it's less confusing.
Pearl-Tongue: What's the point of this card? While "lose control" includes it moving to a different zone, having a creature enter the battlefield under your control doesn't create a control-changing effect, and I'm not aware of any card that interprets "gain control" differently.
What l00ke00 said. Speaking of confusing, this is. I'm not doing it to be intentionally confusing, I'm doing it to avoid creating another Illusions of Grandeur / Donate combo. I made it rare so the confusion doesn't plague too many casual games. If I have to make it mythic, I will. I will entertain alternate wordings.
This guy is a heavy. By that, I mean, I currently expect him to be one of the chasest rares in the set. This being a control-focused set, the heavies are going to look more like the Ferryman and less like this. If he ends up being too good, I'll dial him back, but I want him to be a significant Constructed metagame consideration.
Have you considered making him Mythic? Or do you anticipate the Jace problem? Either way, I know an Ooze player who would kill for one of these. ("What, Earwig Squad only works if the Prowl cost is paid? Waaaahhhh!")
What l00ke00 said. Speaking of confusing, this is. I'm not doing it to be intentionally confusing, I'm doing it to avoid creating another Illusions of Grandeur / Donate combo. I made it rare so the confusion doesn't plague too many casual games. If I have to make it mythic, I will. I will entertain alternate wordings.
Adding "etb" and "ltb" clauses to the existing triggers would make it much more clear, but it's a significant increase in redundant words from simply adding, say, "other" to Razorverge Thicket.
It also occurs to me that you can repeatedly gain 20 life by targeting him with Bazaar Trader, since that is, unambiguously, a gain-control effect. Fun times.
Still not sold on Fugue. From what I've seen of your Fugue creatures so far, you're making Fugue almost impossible as a strategy anyway. That Oxid-Ridge guy mills you and your opponent for 4 on every attack? And he's only 2/1? And he costs 4? Why? That 1/1 flier for 2 with fugue 1? It's a cute card, but bad.
Still, I don't think it should exile, and if you changed it to mill instead of dealing combat damage, you wouldn't have to compensate by lowering the power/toughness levels of the creatures, and upping their mana costs. Then the creatures would simply be as powerful as other creatues, but instead of hitting the life total, they hit the library.
As you obviously seem to take criticism very poorly, I'll try to help you with your Fugue mechanic the way you have it. Nemesis of Reason. 3/7 for 3CD with Fugue 10. Try to imagine that as sort of a power level guide.
As you obviously seem to take criticism very poorly
I don't take criticism poorly, if it's constructive criticism.
I'll try to help you with your Fugue mechanic the way you have it. Nemesis of Reason. 3/7 for 3CD with Fugue 10. Try to imagine that as sort of a power level guide.
Thanks. I do appreciate you throwing your hat in the ring here.
I guess I felt it was obvious, but Nemesis of Reason was my starting point for the fugue mechanic. So, I am aware of the disparity in power level between it, and what I have presented so far.
The issue is Limited. If I put cards that scale anywhere close to the power level of Nemesis of Reason at lower rarities, fugue becomes degenerate in Limited. They only have 40 cards to work with there. I will have cards that scale up to that level at rare or mythic rarities. They aren't going to be quite the blunt instrument that Nemesis of Reason is, but they'll get decks up to a similar rate of milling. I haven't made these cards yet, but I design with their existence as a certain factor. The reason that I'm waiting is because the tricky part of balancing fugue will be for Limited. Blowing the top off the mechanic in Constructed is not so challenging.
So, here's a challenge for you or anybody else that wants it: I am rethinking Descent a bit (crow: let me eat it). I'm just finding it hard to come up with good designs for the mechanic. So, if anybody wants to think of a suitable replacement, I'm all ears. I'm thinking along the lines of some kind of top card revealing mechanic (see: Future Sight, Mul Daya Channelers, etc.) I just don't know how to make "Play with the top card of your library revealed" unique for this block. I'll take suggestions.
Qhunb'eg
Lost within the Blind Eternities, a realm unlike any other plane lies sleeping. Its names are many and also none, but during recent battles, demented planeswalkers have begun to speak of Qhunb'eg in the final seconds before they die. Some whisper of a benthic world, deeper than any ocean, a void of frigid water and darkness. Others say Qhunb'eg is the twisted nightmare of a thousand times and places, of dreams exiled from elsewhere and never returned. In this realm, fallen emperors reign over surreal lands, and saviors thought lost in the midst of wars countless generations gone still quest for their escape. Fragments from across the Multiverse float to the shores of Qhunb'eg, or sink forever into its depths. At its very bottom lies a secret that may spell either doom or reprieve for every other plane; only the brave and the mad will challenge the abyss in search of it.
Themes
The Depths of Qhunb'eg draws inspiration from sources including Christopher Nolan's Inception, Stephen King's The Dark Tower, and H.P. Lovecraft's The Call of Cthulhu. TDoQ indirectly continues and expands upon the story that began with Zendikar and Rise of the Eldrazi, though rather than focus on the Eldrazi titans, TDoQ explores a terrifying world that is mysteriously, yet inexorably linked to them. Similar to Time Spiral block, TDoQ draws characters and mechanics from other times and places, though this time not exclusively from the plane of Dominaria. An overarching "library matters" theme ties these ideas, characters and mechanics together. Exile, milling, tutoring, and basic / nonbasic sub-themes support the main "library matters" theme.
Features
Purple-symboled "Timeshifted" cards make their return in TDoQ. Unlike Time Spiral block, these cards never contain block-specific mechanics, and they may come from any block or set in the history of Magic. Many Reserved List cards will make their first retrun as TDoQ "Timeshifted" cards. Like Time Spiral, TDoQ will have a 400+ card set size to accomodate these extra cards. As a "library matters" block, TDoQ will also present both new and classic vanilla Magic creatures in a new way. These cards will have full-card art and the basic supertype - the first time this supertype has appeared on nonland cards. A deck can now have any number of any kind of basic card, not just basic lands. In addition to these features, the set features the following ability words and keyword mechanics:
Descent -- [EFFECT] as long as a library has twenty or fewer cards in it.
Fugue X (Whenever this creature attacks, defending player exiles the top X cards of his or her library.)
Torrent (While you're searching your library, you may cast this card from your library for its torrent cost. Then exile it.)
EDIT: Missed the bit on being able to have any number of them. I'll hold judgement until I see how you implement this being relevant further into the set/block. I'd be very interested in helping you on this. I loved Inception, and am currently enjoying Dark Tower.
That said, I'm a big fan of mill. Always have been, always will be. That's one of my biggest concerns with the current standard. The only new mill card that's been any good thusfar is Grindclock. I do like your take on the "Fugue" mechanic. I've seen it attempted before, and that's probably one of the better iterations. My question is, how would a player block that?
EDIT: What if the fugue mechanic were changed thusly:
Fugue N (Whenever this creature would deal combat damage to a player, prevent it. That player puts the top N cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.)
or
Fugue N (Whenever this creature would deal combat damage to a player, prevent it. That player exiles the top N cards of his or her library.)
I don't understand why so many people are changing to exiling instead of traditional milling, unless of course you have an exiling subtheme, but you could reprint Narcomeba as a sort of punishment for the Fugue players. I just think traditional milling is a better idea overall. Anyway, this edited version of it would have interesting interactions with double strike, and would keep flavor if the player decided to attack a planeswalker instead.
My art blog
Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
Mho'ab-Chol
Constant storms rage across the surface of Qhunb'eg. The Vothgul merfolk curse this place with the name Mho'ab-Chol, the Shore of Suffering. Beyond the churning clouds, glimpses of the Blind Eternities can be seen from here, shuddering breakthroughs to the Æther that spit out the unlucky exiled into the Qhunb'eg's watery clutches. Any who arrive or depart this place must pass through Mho'ab-Chol, making its waters ripe for predation. Lands both beautiful and twisted rise from the waves, then crumble to nothing minutes or hours later. On the Shore, nothing is permanent save for danger. Those wishing to explore the mysteries of Qhunb'eg must flee from this tempest as fast as they can.
The Vothgul
The residents of Qhunb'eg arrived from elsewhere over countless millennia, and continue arriving as Mho'ab-Chol collects them. For a thousand years, the Vothgul merfolk have made Qhunb'eg their home, making them one of the fugue plane's only enduring cultures. Gathering into fiercely protective schools, the Vothgul calculate the strength and intentions of new arrivals whenever they find them. Those whose powers are deemed to be potentially useful to the Vothgul may be offered safety in a merfolk clave, a heavily-guarded, yet artificial and temporary surface dome, carved out of the chaos of Mho'ab-Chol using powerful blue mana. These floating cities are the only respite from the tempestuous waters and vanishing lands of the Shore. Woe to the wanderers deemed by the Vothgul to be unworthy, or dangerous: those too wild to be controlled usually find themselves shackled, and tossed into the depths without so much as a word spoken.
Spells of Qhunb'eg's surface:
Timeshifted cards - Well, really these are more placeshifted than timeshifted, but the purple symbol should work nonetheless.
Basic - Nice execution there. Be careful what is made Basic though. A deck full of Elite Vanguard could get quite degenerate.
Descent - This requires a fair bit of counting and keeping track of something - for both you and your opponent = that you wouldn't normally consider. Threshold faced a similar problem though on a lesser scale. This mechanic would have better luck in MtGO as it automatically counts. Also, consider formats such as limited which typically have 40 card decks.
Fugue N - Regular milling looks better than exiling as it puts things in a more user-friendly zone. Exiled stuff is typically untouchable which means less interactivity. Trancebarn's ideas are good because that means you win via mill rather than the damage caused by the Fugue creatures.
Torrent - What about Panglacial Wurm's ability? You generally have to pay a bit to search your library in the first place, so no need to up Torrent costs over mana costs.
Custom Card / Set Reviewer
When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
I can't speak for everybody else, but for me, it's the same reason WotC won't reprint Leeches in SoM block. I absolutely agree that graveyard mill is generally the way to go, because it provides more points of interaction. But, supporting mill as a block theme, I don't want the wincon to be so easy to undo. Also, some of my mechanics (torrent, for starters) really demand exile. I want to be consistent. Also also, I want to be absolutely clear that this is a library block and not another graveyard block. I don't want to open the door for runaway graveyard effects, and I don't want to have to print a bunch of graveyard hosing effects to support the primary mill theme.
Panglacial Wurm was the direct inspiration for this ability. I didn't just go with Panglacial Wurm's wording because I want a knob to tweak. Not all of the torrent costs are going to be greater than their respective mana costs. Also, there is some truly cheap library searching out there. An oversimplified answer is that broadly-applicable spells (like my Lightning Roil, above) are going to cost a bit more than their mana cost, while more narrow spells (ex. hosers) will probably cost equal or a bit less.
Glad you guys are intrigued, and I will post more cards ASAP.
Ah, I see. So you want to make your preferred wincon as difficult to stop as possible via exile. The problem with that is then there's not really a way to counteract your ability. Part of what makes mill so fun to play is that there are players that like to play out of their graveyard, and when you run into those players, you're almost helping them in their strategy.
And just because one of your mechanics demands exile doesn't mean this one should. Take Unearth for instance. It returns a creature for a turn, then exiles it. Devour doesn't exile the creatures that get devoured. Why should it? Then it wouldn't interact well with Unearth. Do you see what I'm getting at?
Take a look at poison. While there isn't a way to directly remove poison counters, there are a few ways to counteract the creatures that make them. There's the Tatterkite effect. There's Platinum Angel. There are +1/+1 counters. Part of designing your ability is designing it so that it can be somewhat easily overcome, and then designing other cards to preempt those cards, and then other cards to preempt those cards...otherwise it becomes a game of "I'm going to win because I have more cards in my library than you, and I went first."
My art blog
Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
The Newly Lost
Those who survive the surface storms long enough to plunge into Qhunb'eg's waters soon discover a different, more unsettling kind of horror. Countless reveries, or dream-pockets, sink slowly downwards into the darkening seas. These reveries may be exiled lands, drowned by the hands of their enemies, or may be minor worlds wholly-carved by the chisels of their creators' nightmares. To find these reveries, the seeker must navigate Qhunb'eg's turbulent undercurrents, and must remember the axiom that everything sinks. The shallows, then, are rife with innumerable newly-banished, each still clinging to their worldly ambitions and the improbable hope of escape. Although their motivations differ, both the righteous and the wicked among the lost are united in their desperation. Every visitor is another chance for these dream lords to strike out once again for home, to rekindle hope, or to enact their bitter revenge. Wanderers find themselves enlisted as pawns in these lords' personal games, or, if the fugue's pull is strong, carving out a doomed reverie of their own.
Planar Amnesia
The time-stained oceans care not from whence their prisoners come. Ravnica and Shandalar, Wildfire and Dominaria all offer up dregs for Qhunb'eg's bitter broth. Some masters of reverie swim astride the waters like leviathans, setting forth for others' dreams to take them over or annihilate them. Some of the dream worlds are treasure chests of lost magic, once powerful on their home planes, but since forgotten. These riches often entice the adventurous, who seek to recapture this lost power and loosen it from its descent into the forgotten depths. The legacies of the Multiverse meet here and intertwine as they spiral downward into even darker realms.
Spells of Qhunb'eg's shallows:
As is being discussed in The Psychology of Mill Thread, many player hate Mill whichc is something you would have to address. I like the idea of milling from the bottom as a simple way to avoid feeling like you lost the cards in question.
Descent is too hard to track and will slow games down too much.
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling, and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
"People with needs have trivial purchasing power while people with purchasing power have trivial needs."
-Steve Randy Waldman, Interfludity
"Basic" is fundamentally a library-matters mechanic. It changes the parameters for deck construction (see: library construction). It means you could run a deck that consisted of two cards: Plains and Brush Lions. This falls under the purview of what I am trying to accomplish in this library block; the block is not just about mill. Wait until I flesh out green a bit in future posts.
Thanks.
It's and with some bleed into and :symw:. There will be no fugue in :symg:. Green is explicitly anti-fugue (see Marisi, above, for one example). I haven't posted any really heavy-hitting fugue creatures yet, but when I do, they will be rare, and they will be in blue and black only.
Considered it; rejected it. Not that it can't be done, but because I don't want it to play like infect. I want the mill to be not just un-reversible, but mostly un-preventable. This is because I am pushing control very hard here and I want removal to be imperative. Sounds a bit counter-intuitive perhaps, but I'm working on it.
Please refer to my comments in that thread, which address these points.
I disagree, but more importantly, I don't care that much. I will pretend like I'm in Wizards R&D for as long as the criticism is constructive, but in the end, I'm making an expert-level set for expert-level players. To illustrate the problem, I love Time Spiral block and WotC sees it as one of their biggest mistakes. So, I'm not trying to do what Magic R&D would do - I'm doing what I think hardcore, veteran Magic players want WotC to provide, even if WotC won't. I'm not averse to counting to twenty.
I still have to say that I see why you want mill as inevitible but an inevitble wincon is a boring wincon, especially for Expert level players. I've made more points on this in one of the other threads where you posted cards.
It's not my set so in the end obviously you do what you want but please seriously consider my points about the mill wincon. It's fun, but it needs to be interactive and relevant to both control and aggro. I LOVE the feel of your setting and would like to play these cards when they are done.
Lastly I'll say again just to reiterate, be careful with pushing control. It's already the more powerful play style and dosen't need help.
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling, and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
"People with needs have trivial purchasing power while people with purchasing power have trivial needs."
-Steve Randy Waldman, Interfludity
So I was right. In other words, this is going to be a very boring set to play with. You need to change it. Making fugue virtually unpreventable is a poor choice. Then, not only do you make it impossible to block the mill on the attack, you also make it near impossible to work with the cards that were milled, as they're exiled. Poor choices. I want to be able to play with the cards that I have in my deck, and making a mechanic that strips away any reasonable way to defend against it is not fun in any way. This is coming from someone who loves mill. Your mechanic is bad.
My art blog
Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
[salesman hat]Fugue is designed to shift the pivotal action of battle to a different place than any other Magic set. Fugue presents a unique threat: one that your opponents are unable to prevent once combat begins. Instead, they must eliminate your creature before battle, or decide to engage your creatures this turn to prevent the threat from afflicting them in future turns. Fugue forces your opponent to make combat choices based on long-term factors. If your opponent waits for you to strike, it is already too late.
Does using fugue guarantee you victory? No. Defeating your opponent using fugue means that you have a much bigger objective than a mere life total. Your opponent will have many opportunities to thwart you before you are able to whittle away the cards from his or her library. The benefits of quick payoff are balanced out by the challenge of waging a longer battle. In order to win with fugue, you must be crafty and controlling. In order to stop you, your opponents must be equally so.[/salesman hat]
I could expound on my formative thinking about this set, but really, I'm just going to have to show you through cards what it is all about. This is a very different kind of environment than anything in recent Magic history. It might help to see fugue as a baseline threat, a clock running in the background, with the real back and forth of the interaction in this environment taking place through counterspells, removal, and other control factors. To use some boxing comparisons, it's going to be like Muhammad Ali outlasting his opponents for many rounds, rather than Mike Tyson rushing in for the knockout in the first thirty seconds. Magic has become a lot more like Mike Tyson than Muhammad Ali. I'm trying to change that in this environment.
The thing that concerns me most is the way you keep saying "bring control back" when control is the dominant archetype. I'm fine with a set that has good control, but that means aggro needs to get responses to that control (for the record Fugue is an aggro strategy not a control one). I'd like to see more green and red cards from the set, show me what they can do with torrent and basic creatures!
Well wishes man I want to see this set happen!
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling, and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
"People with needs have trivial purchasing power while people with purchasing power have trivial needs."
-Steve Randy Waldman, Interfludity
Fugue is an aggro strategy, but it's working on a different plane than other aggro strategies, so it's not a direct apples to apples comparison. I want the environment to be slow. I want to dial back the creature power creep of the last five years. But I want to do it in an awesome way, not just by whacking my set with the gimp-hammer.
So, I'm really just trying to find ways to emphasize the ticking clock aspect of fugue. Yes, there will be ways to speed up the clock, but I want those to be somewhat marginal strategies. I want the question that determines the match to be, "Did you manage your resources well, and evolve your strategies to match your opponent's?", not, "Did you dump your opening hand into the red zone the quickest?"
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling, and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
"People with needs have trivial purchasing power while people with purchasing power have trivial needs."
-Steve Randy Waldman, Interfludity
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling, and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
"People with needs have trivial purchasing power while people with purchasing power have trivial needs."
-Steve Randy Waldman, Interfludity
Fugue as an aggro strategy seems it'll work as well as non-General damage as an EDH strategy, which is to say, not well. Even disregarding the lack of "lifegain" and opponents "losing life" to draw cards, long games are still going to result in opponents having more lands in play to cast their big spells and more time to set up their cards which hose you completely (DOJ, Moat, etc). How does fugue deal with this? Yes, you could play your own big spells or disruption for their anti-aggro, but if you're not clocking them every turn you may as well just play ramp or control.
Also interesting that fugue is main-blue and non-green, when their traditional aggro/control makeup would suggest the opposite.
Ferryman: Memoricide is already pretty good. Does it really need an easily recurrable 2/2 body tacked on for a marginally more difficult mana cost?
Deserter: What's wrong with "is attacking"? If you're going to Maze of Ith your own creature to not mill yourself, fine by me.
Nautilus Shield: Nice design, surprised it hasn't been thought of yet.
Pearl-Tongue: What's the point of this card? While "lose control" includes it moving to a different zone, having a creature enter the battlefield under your control doesn't create a control-changing effect, and I'm not aware of any card that interprets "gain control" differently.
Avatar by Numotflame96 of Maelstrom Graphics
Sig banner thanks to DarkNightCavalier of Heroes of the Plane Studios!
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling, and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
"People with needs have trivial purchasing power while people with purchasing power have trivial needs."
-Steve Randy Waldman, Interfludity
Glad I've got you on board for part of it. Everything is a work in progress. I hope that when it's finished, you like the mechanics just as much.
Deliberate on my part. A couple months ago, I posted a MUA and an MGC thread in the main CCC forum. Using the feedback from that, I am trying to reverse the usual roles in this set: blue aggro, green control. What I've posted so far is just the tip of the iceberg for what I'm planning.
This guy is a heavy. By that, I mean, I currently expect him to be one of the chasest rares in the set. This being a control-focused set, the heavies are going to look more like the Ferryman and less like this. If he ends up being too good, I'll dial him back, but I want him to be a significant Constructed metagame consideration.
Either wording is technically correct. Clockwork creatures use my wording, so I'm using that template. I think it's less confusing.
What l00ke00 said. Speaking of confusing, this is. I'm not doing it to be intentionally confusing, I'm doing it to avoid creating another Illusions of Grandeur / Donate combo. I made it rare so the confusion doesn't plague too many casual games. If I have to make it mythic, I will. I will entertain alternate wordings.
Have you considered making him Mythic? Or do you anticipate the Jace problem? Either way, I know an Ooze player who would kill for one of these. ("What, Earwig Squad only works if the Prowl cost is paid? Waaaahhhh!")
Adding "etb" and "ltb" clauses to the existing triggers would make it much more clear, but it's a significant increase in redundant words from simply adding, say, "other" to Razorverge Thicket.
It also occurs to me that you can repeatedly gain 20 life by targeting him with Bazaar Trader, since that is, unambiguously, a gain-control effect. Fun times.
Avatar by Numotflame96 of Maelstrom Graphics
Sig banner thanks to DarkNightCavalier of Heroes of the Plane Studios!
Still, I don't think it should exile, and if you changed it to mill instead of dealing combat damage, you wouldn't have to compensate by lowering the power/toughness levels of the creatures, and upping their mana costs. Then the creatures would simply be as powerful as other creatues, but instead of hitting the life total, they hit the library.
As you obviously seem to take criticism very poorly, I'll try to help you with your Fugue mechanic the way you have it. Nemesis of Reason. 3/7 for 3CD with Fugue 10. Try to imagine that as sort of a power level guide.
My art blog
Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
I don't take criticism poorly, if it's constructive criticism.
Thanks. I do appreciate you throwing your hat in the ring here.
I guess I felt it was obvious, but Nemesis of Reason was my starting point for the fugue mechanic. So, I am aware of the disparity in power level between it, and what I have presented so far.
The issue is Limited. If I put cards that scale anywhere close to the power level of Nemesis of Reason at lower rarities, fugue becomes degenerate in Limited. They only have 40 cards to work with there. I will have cards that scale up to that level at rare or mythic rarities. They aren't going to be quite the blunt instrument that Nemesis of Reason is, but they'll get decks up to a similar rate of milling. I haven't made these cards yet, but I design with their existence as a certain factor. The reason that I'm waiting is because the tricky part of balancing fugue will be for Limited. Blowing the top off the mechanic in Constructed is not so challenging.
So, here's a challenge for you or anybody else that wants it: I am rethinking Descent a bit (crow: let me eat it). I'm just finding it hard to come up with good designs for the mechanic. So, if anybody wants to think of a suitable replacement, I'm all ears. I'm thinking along the lines of some kind of top card revealing mechanic (see: Future Sight, Mul Daya Channelers, etc.) I just don't know how to make "Play with the top card of your library revealed" unique for this block. I'll take suggestions.