(inspired by rancored_elf and guesswork's threads)
I'm sure most (if not all) of us has seen something like this:
"I activate my millstone."
"Oh man, you hit my (insert card here). Milling is too strong!"
or
"You milled a land! A needed that!"
That's pretty much what you'd hear from a casual playgroup when hit by a mill spell. Even competitive players "feel" like they're losing a spell when hit by a mill effect, even if, mathematically, the card might as well have been at the bottom of the library. Thus, mill gets a very strong reputation as being an unfun mechanic. Competitively, mill is very weak as well, especially now with eldrazi and company, which means mill is also unpopular with the spike crowd.
That got me thinking: is it possible to make a mill card that 1) mills effectively to make it more palatable to the spike crowd 2) avoid making it unfun?
Chalk on blackboard2
artifact
2, T: exile the bottom 3 cards of target player's library face down.
The concession to competitive players is that it is stronger than millstone in terms of cards removed from the library and it exiles cards rather than putting them into the graveyard (avoiding most anti-mill cards). For the casual crowd, it exiles from
a) the bottom of the library,
-- as pointed out by rancored_elf on another thread, this means its harder to manipulate
-- the bottom of the library might isn't something you'd be drawing anytime soon, avoiding the feeling of "losing" important cards.
b) face down, thus, you can't see what you're cards you're "losing" until the game is over.
Another would be this:
Rummage2
Artifact ,T:Reveal the bottom 5 cards of target opponent's library, then that player puts one of the revealed cards in his hand and exiles the rest.
It's a mill card, with the concession that the opponent gets a card of his choice (and so, doesn't "lose" anything important in addition to card advantage). The number 5 can be adjusted up and down if its it too good or too weak.
An even more extreme version
Yawgmoth's Crack2B
enchantment ,T: Put the top 7 cards of target opponent's library to his graveyard.
Opponents may play cards from the graveyard as if it were in their hand. If a spell or permanent would be put into their graveyard, exile it instead.
Its a mill card. A suicidal mill card in vintage, but a mill card. The opponent loses absolutely nothing other than library volume. 7 may be adjusted up or down if it is too strong or too weak (likely, too weak).
I rather like this as a solution to many things with milling as a win condition. Rather than actively grinding away at your head, it feels as though you're sinking into an unfathomable abyss.
Face-down is an interesting alternative. That can create some frustrating situations if you're frequently tutoring, but broadly speaking isn't all that devastating emotionally. If you are the type of person to think, "Oh no, what did I lose?" then the unfun will still be present for you.
As for the forced Browsing, that's another interesting take on it. Most opponents will just be thinking, "Thank you" until you hit them with it for the 9th time and then it's time to be worried.
There's other options. There could be exile based looting. Still hurts to play against, but you have the potential for card quality.
Ellespache Tome 3
Artifact ,T: Target player draws two cards, then exiles two cards from his or her hand. Its pages, once turned, do not turn back.
This has the advantage of actively being able to end the game the moment it's activated on a one or zero card deck.
There's a more labour intensive one that might work for larger effects; Picking the cards out of the deck for yourself...
Spotless Mind XUB
Sorcery
Target player searches his or her library for X cards and exiles them. Then, that player shuffles his or her library.
Having it appear on a repeatable effect would get tiring on your shuffling digits. This puts your opponent in the driver's seat as to what they end up losing, and a skilled player can streamline their deck in this way.
I think it would be okay even to have the top get exiled face-down; when I see someone get targeted by a Grimoire Thief, their concern isn't so much getting milled as having a looming counterspell sitting there.
Ellespache Tome 3
Artifact ,T: Target player draws two cards, then exiles two cards from his or her hand. Its pages, once turned, do not turn back.
This has the advantage of actively being able to end the game the moment it's activated on a one or zero card deck.
This works, although quite powerful if targetted on the caster (its is still a draw 2, discard 2 crap), and weak if targetted on the opponent.
Spotless Mind XUB
Sorcery
Target player searches his or her library for X cards and exiles them. Then, that player shuffles his or her library.
This, I like, altough I'd make it a fixed value (say, 10 cards, making it comparable to glimpse the unthinkable).
I think it would be okay even to have the top get exiled face-down; when I see someone get targeted by a Grimoire Thief, their concern isn't so much getting milled as having a looming counterspell sitting there.
Statistically, top or bottom of library doesn't really matter. However, I was trying to avoid the feeling of "the effect is taking away cards that I could have drawn!". It's an illogical feeling, but still a real one that contributes to the stigma of mill.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Is there something wrong with mill having a stigma?
The people who like mill might be the ones who like when their opponents wail and gnash their teeth when their best card is thrown in the trash.
True, the griefer instinct is a strong one.
That's exactly the reason I don't have any targeted mill in any of my casual decks. Sadistic Sacrament is a card that can lose you friends in casual as you take their three awesome one-of cards. Why should you play against an opponent that can literally take all the fun out of your deck?
Top-card mill is a step down from that. You see it coming, and it has that, 'If only I had one more draw' reflex that kicks in.
Bottom mill... I've never experienced it, so I can't exactly comment.
My favourite kind of mill is anything along the lines of Forced Fruition, baring outright Stroke of Genius for deck+1. It's deadly, but it's killing me by giving me things. That's like getting chocolate ice creamed to death!
True, Memory Erosion is a good card in that regard - you're milling them pretty efficiently while not actually milling them - it's more that they are milling themselves...
Bottom mill presents its own set of problems, chief of which is the fact that bottom dealing is one of the most time-tested ways to cheat at a card game. Imagine you've just cascaded through your game winning spell, and are forced to send it to the bottom of your library. If you're good at sleight of hand, the next time you get a legitimate opportunity to manipulate the bottom of your library (bottom mill), it's not going to be too hard for you to cheat that card onto the top of your library. "Then don't cheat" commands aren't really going to stop the kind of player who would try that. I see it as an open invitation to them, however unfair that is.
I'm a little more optimistic about exiling cards face down. It could work. The weird part is that exile is a face-up zone, so if you're pushing a large amount of mill, you're forcing that zone to work against its own rules on a correspondingly large scale. But, I could see players adapting to it, so it's worth a playtest. One thing of which I think you need to be mindful is that any set that uses exile for its flagship mechanics should NOT have both face up and face down cards in exile. I think it would end up a lot like the +1/+1 vs. -1/-1 counter situation. People would forget what's supposed to be face up and what's supposed to be face down, and that information could make or break entire games. This also tilts the playing field more towards milling being best as a face up mechanic, because you don't have to worry about player error that way.
I think that Megiddo is on to something. I think you really have to take mill for what it is. If that means that it feels like griefing, then you just deal with that. I think it's useful to see mill as really being a control-centric win condition. Like you said, it feels like you're taking away their spells, even if this is totally illogical, and that's a very control-archetype kind of feeling. So, the environment needs a big push in control's direction. Encourage an environment where your opponent is going to grief you right back. Create fun and interactive kinds of control (I believe it's possible), and push for longer games (but not slower), which mill really needs to be viable anyway.
Even if WotC never touches mill as a block or set theme, for fear of offending n00bs and the casual crowd, it's something that expert and veteran players have always wanted. So, it's a great mechanic for this create-a-card forum. Good luck with it.
Why change mill? A player doesn't just feel like the lost the next card they would've drawn when they're milled, they actually lost the next card they would've drawn. While their deck is randomly shuffled, and any one card could be virtually anywhere in their deck, that one card is actually in a specific place, and milling throws off whether or not they'll draw that card, and when.
What this means is that milling is a double-sided random mechanic. I have as much of a chance at milling your game winning card as I do of milling so that you draw your game winning card, save infinite mill combos. This creates suspense in sets (3 games, best of 2 wins) as milling may be my way to victory the first game, but it may be the very thing that provides my downfall the next.
Particularly in standard, when milling usually happens in small bursts, it becomes a difficult choice for the mill player whether or not they should mill. If I mill, will it save me time, or lose me the game? Milling from the bottom of the library gets rid of that interaction. It doesn't matter whether or not I mill, they'll draw the same card.
Also, exiling the cards is worse than simply putting them in the graveyard. The graveyard is a useable resource for a wide variety of Magic cards. Exile isn't. It's only useable to a select few, which generally aren't played.
Finally, mill is a useful tool against library manipulation. Milling from the top of an opponent's library counteracts cards like Elvish Harbinger. Yes, it's a small niche of cards, but it's useful.
In short, mill shouldn't change. The way mill interacts in the game creates suspensful, random games. It's part of why I love playing mill, and I'm sure part of why true mill players love playing mill. It's not just that I'm taking cards out of their deck. It's that my last mill may have been a good or bad choice. It's the same reason I play Planechase. The same reason I love EDH. Changing mill would only hurt the mill player.
I'm sure most (if not all) of us has seen something like this:
"I activate my millstone."
"Oh man, you hit my (insert card here). Milling is too strong!"
or
"You milled a land! A needed that!"
That's pretty much what you'd hear from a casual playgroup when hit by a mill spell. Even competitive players "feel" like they're losing a spell when hit by a mill effect, even if, mathematically, the card might as well have been at the bottom of the library. Thus, mill gets a very strong reputation as being an unfun mechanic. Competitively, mill is very weak as well, especially now with eldrazi and company, which means mill is also unpopular with the spike crowd.
That got me thinking: is it possible to make a mill card that 1) mills effectively to make it more palatable to the spike crowd 2) avoid making it unfun?
Chalk on blackboard 2
artifact
2, T: exile the bottom 3 cards of target player's library face down.
The concession to competitive players is that it is stronger than millstone in terms of cards removed from the library and it exiles cards rather than putting them into the graveyard (avoiding most anti-mill cards). For the casual crowd, it exiles from
a) the bottom of the library,
-- as pointed out by rancored_elf on another thread, this means its harder to manipulate
-- the bottom of the library might isn't something you'd be drawing anytime soon, avoiding the feeling of "losing" important cards.
b) face down, thus, you can't see what you're cards you're "losing" until the game is over.
Another would be this:
Rummage 2
Artifact
,T:Reveal the bottom 5 cards of target opponent's library, then that player puts one of the revealed cards in his hand and exiles the rest.
It's a mill card, with the concession that the opponent gets a card of his choice (and so, doesn't "lose" anything important in addition to card advantage). The number 5 can be adjusted up and down if its it too good or too weak.
An even more extreme version
Yawgmoth's Crack 2B
enchantment
,T: Put the top 7 cards of target opponent's library to his graveyard.
Opponents may play cards from the graveyard as if it were in their hand. If a spell or permanent would be put into their graveyard, exile it instead.
Its a mill card. A suicidal mill card in vintage, but a mill card. The opponent loses absolutely nothing other than library volume. 7 may be adjusted up or down if it is too strong or too weak (likely, too weak).
Any other ideas?
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Face-down is an interesting alternative. That can create some frustrating situations if you're frequently tutoring, but broadly speaking isn't all that devastating emotionally. If you are the type of person to think, "Oh no, what did I lose?" then the unfun will still be present for you.
As for the forced Browsing, that's another interesting take on it. Most opponents will just be thinking, "Thank you" until you hit them with it for the 9th time and then it's time to be worried.
There's other options. There could be exile based looting. Still hurts to play against, but you have the potential for card quality.
Ellespache Tome 3
Artifact
,T: Target player draws two cards, then exiles two cards from his or her hand.
Its pages, once turned, do not turn back.
This has the advantage of actively being able to end the game the moment it's activated on a one or zero card deck.
There's a more labour intensive one that might work for larger effects; Picking the cards out of the deck for yourself...
Spotless Mind XUB
Sorcery
Target player searches his or her library for X cards and exiles them. Then, that player shuffles his or her library.
Having it appear on a repeatable effect would get tiring on your shuffling digits. This puts your opponent in the driver's seat as to what they end up losing, and a skilled player can streamline their deck in this way.
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[Clan Flamingo] Tier Archivist
[15:21] <@CC> Remember, if you argue, you are an idiot.
Untrophied Wins:
Perfect MCC Scores: 2
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This works, although quite powerful if targetted on the caster (its is still a draw 2, discard 2 crap), and weak if targetted on the opponent.
This, I like, altough I'd make it a fixed value (say, 10 cards, making it comparable to glimpse the unthinkable).
Statistically, top or bottom of library doesn't really matter. However, I was trying to avoid the feeling of "the effect is taking away cards that I could have drawn!". It's an illogical feeling, but still a real one that contributes to the stigma of mill.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
The people who like mill might be the ones who like when their opponents wail and gnash their teeth when their best card is thrown in the trash.
True, the griefer instinct is a strong one.
That's exactly the reason I don't have any targeted mill in any of my casual decks. Sadistic Sacrament is a card that can lose you friends in casual as you take their three awesome one-of cards. Why should you play against an opponent that can literally take all the fun out of your deck?
Top-card mill is a step down from that. You see it coming, and it has that, 'If only I had one more draw' reflex that kicks in.
Bottom mill... I've never experienced it, so I can't exactly comment.
My favourite kind of mill is anything along the lines of Forced Fruition, baring outright Stroke of Genius for deck+1. It's deadly, but it's killing me by giving me things. That's like getting chocolate ice creamed to death!
Banner by Topher!
[Clan Flamingo] Tier Archivist
[15:21] <@CC> Remember, if you argue, you are an idiot.
Untrophied Wins:
Perfect MCC Scores: 2
---------------------------------------------------------------
Bottom mill presents its own set of problems, chief of which is the fact that bottom dealing is one of the most time-tested ways to cheat at a card game. Imagine you've just cascaded through your game winning spell, and are forced to send it to the bottom of your library. If you're good at sleight of hand, the next time you get a legitimate opportunity to manipulate the bottom of your library (bottom mill), it's not going to be too hard for you to cheat that card onto the top of your library. "Then don't cheat" commands aren't really going to stop the kind of player who would try that. I see it as an open invitation to them, however unfair that is.
I'm a little more optimistic about exiling cards face down. It could work. The weird part is that exile is a face-up zone, so if you're pushing a large amount of mill, you're forcing that zone to work against its own rules on a correspondingly large scale. But, I could see players adapting to it, so it's worth a playtest. One thing of which I think you need to be mindful is that any set that uses exile for its flagship mechanics should NOT have both face up and face down cards in exile. I think it would end up a lot like the +1/+1 vs. -1/-1 counter situation. People would forget what's supposed to be face up and what's supposed to be face down, and that information could make or break entire games. This also tilts the playing field more towards milling being best as a face up mechanic, because you don't have to worry about player error that way.
I think that Megiddo is on to something. I think you really have to take mill for what it is. If that means that it feels like griefing, then you just deal with that. I think it's useful to see mill as really being a control-centric win condition. Like you said, it feels like you're taking away their spells, even if this is totally illogical, and that's a very control-archetype kind of feeling. So, the environment needs a big push in control's direction. Encourage an environment where your opponent is going to grief you right back. Create fun and interactive kinds of control (I believe it's possible), and push for longer games (but not slower), which mill really needs to be viable anyway.
Even if WotC never touches mill as a block or set theme, for fear of offending n00bs and the casual crowd, it's something that expert and veteran players have always wanted. So, it's a great mechanic for this create-a-card forum. Good luck with it.
What this means is that milling is a double-sided random mechanic. I have as much of a chance at milling your game winning card as I do of milling so that you draw your game winning card, save infinite mill combos. This creates suspense in sets (3 games, best of 2 wins) as milling may be my way to victory the first game, but it may be the very thing that provides my downfall the next.
Particularly in standard, when milling usually happens in small bursts, it becomes a difficult choice for the mill player whether or not they should mill. If I mill, will it save me time, or lose me the game? Milling from the bottom of the library gets rid of that interaction. It doesn't matter whether or not I mill, they'll draw the same card.
Also, exiling the cards is worse than simply putting them in the graveyard. The graveyard is a useable resource for a wide variety of Magic cards. Exile isn't. It's only useable to a select few, which generally aren't played.
Finally, mill is a useful tool against library manipulation. Milling from the top of an opponent's library counteracts cards like Elvish Harbinger. Yes, it's a small niche of cards, but it's useful.
In short, mill shouldn't change. The way mill interacts in the game creates suspensful, random games. It's part of why I love playing mill, and I'm sure part of why true mill players love playing mill. It's not just that I'm taking cards out of their deck. It's that my last mill may have been a good or bad choice. It's the same reason I play Planechase. The same reason I love EDH. Changing mill would only hurt the mill player.
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