If the answer costs black seven mana whereas colors that are better at dealing with enchantments only have to pay one or two, I hardly think that that the weakness is made negligable.
Well it isn't just enchantment removal for these, Ulamog and the Spine are both Vindicate's and All of Dust is a sweeper.
Oblivion Stone was years after Nev's Disk and also not in the last few sets. It more like what's the point of having a weakness when you can just throw in colorless answers?
that's how artifacts have always been. overcosted but filling in the weaknesses of each color. i am not too worried about spine of ish sah: if you can pay 7 i think you deserve a vindicate.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
that's how artifacts have always been. overcosted but filling in the weaknesses of each color. i am not too worried about spine of ish sah: if you can pay 7 i think you deserve a vindicate.
Not really. Between Alpha and Zendikar there were 2 colorless cards printed for dealing with enchantments, Nev's Disk and O-Stone.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I am not sure why this is such a big deal, I never ever run cards like these because they blast enchantments in black or blue. I run them because they kill creatures!
You got me.:rolleyes: I did my search for my monoblack EDH deck which doesn't allow Plague Boiler so I forgot about it. I am ashamed of myself.
EDIT: @ftr: Clearly it is no big deal because I am the only person bothered by this. Ratchet Bomb was post Zendikar so that is 3 prior to Zendikar and 4 after. Regardless, feel free to disregard my pointless ranting.
Those I am more comfortable with because they are either ante cards, un cards, abominations (chaos orb), or limited in some way (worldslayer requires a dude to get through unblocked, EE has sunburst requiring x number of colors and can only hit up to 5cc enchantments which means you're also playing white and green). Other stuff like Mycosynth Lattice + artifact removal is also fine by me because it requires you to jump through hoops.
yeah it straight up makes no sense. but they've been ☺☺☺☺ting all over the color pie more and more lately. i honestly don't understand it.
This is my biggest complaint about modern magic (Well, next to RoE as a set). That white creature is an abomination of the color pie.
I also sympathize with Donald's position. When I started back in 6th edition, one of my favorite aspects of the game was that each color had its own strengths and weaknesses. I can't stand this trend of blending the colors together and shoring up all of their individual flaws.
in my opinion, "unfun" effects are really just effects a player doesn't understand how to use or how to beat. i'd rather understand (and play with others who understand) how to use and beat powerful effects than simplify the cube so no one has to.
For all I know, you are Kai Budde and for all you know I'm John Finkel. It doesn't matter. What matters is your logical argument for or against the card in question.
This is my biggest complaint about modern magic (Well, next to RoE as a set). That white creature is an abomination of the color pie.
I also sympathize with Donald's position. When I started back in 6th edition, one of my favorite aspects of the game was that each color had its own strengths and weaknesses. I can't stand this trend of blending the colors together and shoring up all of their individual flaws.
You didn't like RoE as a set? How can that be? I think it's far and away the best set since at least Time Spiral and I think you could argue it's the best limited set ever. Pretty much everyone I know absolutely loved drafting and playing it.
You didn't like RoE as a set? How can that be? I think it's far and away the best set since at least Time Spiral and I think you could argue it's the best limited set ever. Pretty much everyone I know absolutely loved drafting and playing it.
I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll try to be brief, but RoE actually drove me to quit M:tG until I discovered cubing. Here's a quick run down of why I hated it.
A) The major one first - Colorless spells don't feel flavorful at all. I understand how artifacts are impersonal machines that don't ally with any color, but not how a planeswalker can form any color mana into a spell like AIDS. Green, for example, is categorically opposed to an effect like that, and the fact that green now has access to it violates what, for me anyway, is a core principle of the game.
B) Wizards went waaay overboard with their "creatures matter" BS. Emrakul, Kozilek, etc. are just stupid. I was so happy when Emmy was banned in EDH. "CIP: take another turn" is inane.
C) I really don't like the frames on levellers. This is purely aesthetic, and since I know I can't design better ones, I'm not going to spend time whining about it, but they seriously bug me.
D) "Annihilator" is worse design than "Bands with others".
E) Vengevine is a mythic. Seriously now.
As for drafting it, I never did, so that could be part of why I hate it. The last time I played limited was in Shards block. I didn't buy a single piece of RoE sealed product, because I didn't intend to support "colorless". In fact, the only reason I bought any singles from the set was to build my cube. Otherwise I'd have left those alone too.
in my opinion, "unfun" effects are really just effects a player doesn't understand how to use or how to beat. i'd rather understand (and play with others who understand) how to use and beat powerful effects than simplify the cube so no one has to.
For all I know, you are Kai Budde and for all you know I'm John Finkel. It doesn't matter. What matters is your logical argument for or against the card in question.
I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll try to be brief, but RoE actually drove me to quit M:tG until I discovered cubing. Here's a quick run down of why I hated it.
A) The major one first - Colorless spells don't feel flavorful at all. I understand how artifacts are impersonal machines that don't ally with any color, but not how a planeswalker can form any color mana into a spell like AIDS. Green, for example, is categorically opposed to an effect like that, and the fact that green now has access to it violates what, for me anyway, is a core principle of the game.
B) Wizards went waaay overboard with their "creatures matter" BS. Emrakul, Kozilek, etc. are just stupid. I was so happy when Emmy was banned in EDH. "CIP: take another turn" is inane.
C) I really don't like the frames on levellers. This is purely aesthetic, and since I know I can't design better ones, I'm not going to spend time whining about it, but they seriously bug me.
D) "Annihilator" is worse design than "Bands with others".
E) Vengevine is a mythic. Seriously now.
As for drafting it, I never did, so that could be part of why I hate it. The last time I played limited was in Shards block. I didn't buy a single piece of RoE sealed product, because I didn't intend to support "colorless". In fact, the only reason I bought any singles from the set was to build my cube. Otherwise I'd have left those alone too.
Nope. Cube is the best limited "set" ever.
So basically your complaints are about things other than game play. I guess I can't argue with you there. The Mythic Eldrazi are really powerful sure, but they cost 10+ mana. They're not problematic at all. Just look at the fact that they're basically not played in cube. They're definitely not broken, so I don't see them as a problem. And Annhilator is a powerful ability to be sure, but again it only comes at a great cost. Playing it in limited and you realized that it wasn't really a problem. It's just a different way to let your expensive finisher end the game. Ask aroudn and you'll find RoE was a hugely popular limited format and I'm sure if you give it a try and can put your vorthos tendencies aside you'll realize it was a great set. I'd love for them to make more sets like it and less sets like Scars, Zendikar or Alara.
So basically your complaints are about things other than game play. I guess I can't argue with you there. The Mythic Eldrazi are really powerful sure, but they cost 10+ mana. They're not problematic at all. Just look at the fact that they're basically not played in cube. They're definitely not broken, so I don't see them as a problem. And Annhilator is a powerful ability to be sure, but again it only comes at a great cost. Playing it in limited and you realized that it wasn't really a problem. It's just a different way to let your expensive finisher end the game. Ask aroudn and you'll find RoE was a hugely popular limited format and I'm sure if you give it a try and can put your vorthos tendencies aside you'll realize it was a great set. I'd love for them to make more sets like it and less sets like Scars, Zendikar or Alara.
My complaints aren't about power level of the cards - clearly, the Eldrazi are fair for what they do, and useless in just about every format. I think Wizards just went well beyond the "ceiling" for creatures - I didn't start playing Magic because I wanted to summon the Death Star or Cthulu, and certainly not because I wanted to watch them duke it out. IMO, if you want to make creatures matter, print more creatures like Goblin Guide and FTK, not elder gods.
It's unlikely that I'll ever set aside my Vorthos-ness. I'm about 65% Vorthos, 5% Johnny, and 30% Spike. I have no room for Timmy and his big stupid monsters, nor for spells that by definition negate the color pie, an element so integral to the game that it's printed on the back of every card.
*shrug* The set just wasn't for me.
It's okay though, because cubing brought me back to the game. I still don't buy product, but hey, I'm playing at least.
in my opinion, "unfun" effects are really just effects a player doesn't understand how to use or how to beat. i'd rather understand (and play with others who understand) how to use and beat powerful effects than simplify the cube so no one has to.
For all I know, you are Kai Budde and for all you know I'm John Finkel. It doesn't matter. What matters is your logical argument for or against the card in question.
RotE had as set themes half of the things that I don't like to play with:
-creature enchantments
-the wall.dec
-creatures that cost >8 mana
-tons of crap rares (unofficial theme)
and if I search a bit longer i will probably some dexterity cards and extreme color hosers as well.
Oh, I had forgotten about the aura theme. *shudder* Luckily, that's behind us. Now our biggest foes are super narrow and unnecessarily internal mechanics. Hopefully no matter what the next set ends up being called we won't have too many Infect/Proliferate/Metalcraft cards mucking up the packs.
in my opinion, "unfun" effects are really just effects a player doesn't understand how to use or how to beat. i'd rather understand (and play with others who understand) how to use and beat powerful effects than simplify the cube so no one has to.
For all I know, you are Kai Budde and for all you know I'm John Finkel. It doesn't matter. What matters is your logical argument for or against the card in question.
RotE had as set themes half of the things that I don't like to play with:
-creature enchantments
-the wall.dec
-creatures that cost >8 mana
-tons of crap rares (unofficial theme)
and if I search a bit longer i will probably some dexterity cards and extreme color hosers as well.
What's wrong with creature enchantments or creatures that cost more than 8 mana. I will grant you that wall.dec isn't always the most exciting, but at least wall.dec had a pretty efficient kill card. The fact that a deck full of auras or full of walls or with a large number of 8 plus CMC creatures were all viable is what makes the format great. There were so many different ways you could build your deck and you actually had time to get your plan to fire off. Much better than Zendikar where it was basically whoever stumbled first and missed an agressive dude lost or Scars with it's hit or miss poison and metalcraft decks.
i liked rise because it was bizarre and unexpected, and it catered to the noobs in a way so spectacularly over the top that i respected it. noobs love auras, noobs love huge monsters, many noobs love walls. plus it works for spike anyway because the limited is so good.
Green, for example, is categorically opposed to an effect like that, and the fact that green now has access to it violates what, for me anyway, is a core principle of the game.
this is no different than what has been going on with artifacts since the advent of the game. green has had access to nevinyrral's disk for its entire existence. they're both colorless mana --> off color effect. the eldrazi are impersonal and don't ally with any color just the same. so what i'm saying is, in my opinion the distinction you're drawing between colorless and artifacts is meaningless in an objective sense.
"CIP: take another turn" is inane.
it's when you cast it. not when it etb.
C) I really don't like the frames on levellers. This is purely aesthetic, and since I know I can't design better ones, I'm not going to spend time whining about it, but they seriously bug me.
i really loved the levellers and i think they are a fantastic design. i hope they get reused soon.
"Annihilator" is worse design than "Bands with others".
i think it's extremely simple and intuitive. it attacks, ☺☺☺☺ gets sacked. not sure what issue you have with it. it's flavorful and i didn't see anyone casual having a problem with it during the prerelease.
Vengevine is a mythic. Seriously now.
i hear you, man. mythics are dumb as ☺☺☺☺ and i have no love for them. the only upside is they lower the price of the rest of the set which is good for singles collectors. the downside is we mostly want the mythics. they are an obvious cash grab that insults the customer, but i understand that it may have been necessary for the game to continue, so i'm ok with it in a limited way because of that.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Most of my distaste is from nothing more than an aesthetic view and is pretty subjective, and thus pretty hard to defend, but I feel like I need to articulate my colorless position better. To me, there is a very real difference between an artifact that can be discovered/summoned/created (whatever) and then utilized by anyone and a spell that is canonically the formation of mana. I have no problem with Kozilek, Butcher of Truth remaining unaffiliated with the (mere mortal) colors. What bugs me is that green or blue mana can be used to fuel All Is Dust when the effect flies in the face of what those colors prioritize. (Red casting Not of This World is a similar example.) Mechanically, I suppose the difference is trivial. Flavorwise, it just bugs me. Green/Blue mana should not be able to be formulated into a spell that reduces everything to dust. To me, Green/Blue mages have to go questing for/build/gate in artifacts if they want to blow up the world.
Oh, and on the levelers - love the design, hate the card frames. They're just so cluttered. They just always remind me of Greater Morphling.
in my opinion, "unfun" effects are really just effects a player doesn't understand how to use or how to beat. i'd rather understand (and play with others who understand) how to use and beat powerful effects than simplify the cube so no one has to.
For all I know, you are Kai Budde and for all you know I'm John Finkel. It doesn't matter. What matters is your logical argument for or against the card in question.
I loved drafting RoE because there was a TON of archetypes, and most of them were bizarres and fun to play. There was a time when I drafted a Kiln Fiend deck and litteraly wet my panties while playing it.
None other set ever did me the same.
I loved drafting Rise because G/x ramp was by far the best deck and I drafted it 80% of the time and won a ton.
I loved drafting Rise because G/x ramp was by far the best deck and I drafted it 80% of the time and won a ton.
Yea, Rise is probably my favorite limited format of all time. The fact that green was probably the best color in the draft format probably had a lot to do with it. It rewarded good drafting more than most sets though, as you had to have a good plan and constantly be adapting to what you were passed.
Well it isn't just enchantment removal for these, Ulamog and the Spine are both Vindicate's and All of Dust is a sweeper.
that's how artifacts have always been. overcosted but filling in the weaknesses of each color. i am not too worried about spine of ish sah: if you can pay 7 i think you deserve a vindicate.
Not really. Between Alpha and Zendikar there were 2 colorless cards printed for dealing with enchantments, Nev's Disk and O-Stone.
Plague Boiler would like a word with you.
-AA
P.S. And Powder Keg.
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
Edit - I think...I can't check cause I'm at work but if I recall this hunk of junk hits enchantments too.
nope.
Powder Keg would like you to read it more closely.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
He meant Ratchet Bomb.
I am not sure why this is such a big deal, I never ever run cards like these because they blast enchantments in black or blue. I run them because they kill creatures!
You got me.:rolleyes: I did my search for my monoblack EDH deck which doesn't allow Plague Boiler so I forgot about it. I am ashamed of myself.
EDIT: @ftr: Clearly it is no big deal because I am the only person bothered by this. Ratchet Bomb was post Zendikar so that is 3 prior to Zendikar and 4 after. Regardless, feel free to disregard my pointless ranting.
EDIT: And how did you miss Culling Scales!
Yeah. They are butchering it little by little.
So Blood Seeker + half Soul Warden becomes a mono white card?
This is my biggest complaint about modern magic (Well, next to RoE as a set). That white creature is an abomination of the color pie.
I also sympathize with Donald's position. When I started back in 6th edition, one of my favorite aspects of the game was that each color had its own strengths and weaknesses. I can't stand this trend of blending the colors together and shoring up all of their individual flaws.
You didn't like RoE as a set? How can that be? I think it's far and away the best set since at least Time Spiral and I think you could argue it's the best limited set ever. Pretty much everyone I know absolutely loved drafting and playing it.
I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll try to be brief, but RoE actually drove me to quit M:tG until I discovered cubing. Here's a quick run down of why I hated it.
A) The major one first - Colorless spells don't feel flavorful at all. I understand how artifacts are impersonal machines that don't ally with any color, but not how a planeswalker can form any color mana into a spell like AIDS. Green, for example, is categorically opposed to an effect like that, and the fact that green now has access to it violates what, for me anyway, is a core principle of the game.
B) Wizards went waaay overboard with their "creatures matter" BS. Emrakul, Kozilek, etc. are just stupid. I was so happy when Emmy was banned in EDH. "CIP: take another turn" is inane.
C) I really don't like the frames on levellers. This is purely aesthetic, and since I know I can't design better ones, I'm not going to spend time whining about it, but they seriously bug me.
D) "Annihilator" is worse design than "Bands with others".
E) Vengevine is a mythic. Seriously now.
As for drafting it, I never did, so that could be part of why I hate it. The last time I played limited was in Shards block. I didn't buy a single piece of RoE sealed product, because I didn't intend to support "colorless". In fact, the only reason I bought any singles from the set was to build my cube. Otherwise I'd have left those alone too.
Nope. Cube is the best limited "set" ever.
So basically your complaints are about things other than game play. I guess I can't argue with you there. The Mythic Eldrazi are really powerful sure, but they cost 10+ mana. They're not problematic at all. Just look at the fact that they're basically not played in cube. They're definitely not broken, so I don't see them as a problem. And Annhilator is a powerful ability to be sure, but again it only comes at a great cost. Playing it in limited and you realized that it wasn't really a problem. It's just a different way to let your expensive finisher end the game. Ask aroudn and you'll find RoE was a hugely popular limited format and I'm sure if you give it a try and can put your vorthos tendencies aside you'll realize it was a great set. I'd love for them to make more sets like it and less sets like Scars, Zendikar or Alara.
My complaints aren't about power level of the cards - clearly, the Eldrazi are fair for what they do, and useless in just about every format. I think Wizards just went well beyond the "ceiling" for creatures - I didn't start playing Magic because I wanted to summon the Death Star or Cthulu, and certainly not because I wanted to watch them duke it out. IMO, if you want to make creatures matter, print more creatures like Goblin Guide and FTK, not elder gods.
It's unlikely that I'll ever set aside my Vorthos-ness. I'm about 65% Vorthos, 5% Johnny, and 30% Spike. I have no room for Timmy and his big stupid monsters, nor for spells that by definition negate the color pie, an element so integral to the game that it's printed on the back of every card.
*shrug* The set just wasn't for me.
It's okay though, because cubing brought me back to the game. I still don't buy product, but hey, I'm playing at least.
Oh, I had forgotten about the aura theme. *shudder* Luckily, that's behind us. Now our biggest foes are super narrow and unnecessarily internal mechanics. Hopefully no matter what the next set ends up being called we won't have too many Infect/Proliferate/Metalcraft cards mucking up the packs.
A guy can dream.
What's wrong with creature enchantments or creatures that cost more than 8 mana. I will grant you that wall.dec isn't always the most exciting, but at least wall.dec had a pretty efficient kill card. The fact that a deck full of auras or full of walls or with a large number of 8 plus CMC creatures were all viable is what makes the format great. There were so many different ways you could build your deck and you actually had time to get your plan to fire off. Much better than Zendikar where it was basically whoever stumbled first and missed an agressive dude lost or Scars with it's hit or miss poison and metalcraft decks.
this is no different than what has been going on with artifacts since the advent of the game. green has had access to nevinyrral's disk for its entire existence. they're both colorless mana --> off color effect. the eldrazi are impersonal and don't ally with any color just the same. so what i'm saying is, in my opinion the distinction you're drawing between colorless and artifacts is meaningless in an objective sense.
it's when you cast it. not when it etb.
i really loved the levellers and i think they are a fantastic design. i hope they get reused soon.
i think it's extremely simple and intuitive. it attacks, ☺☺☺☺ gets sacked. not sure what issue you have with it. it's flavorful and i didn't see anyone casual having a problem with it during the prerelease.
i hear you, man. mythics are dumb as ☺☺☺☺ and i have no love for them. the only upside is they lower the price of the rest of the set which is good for singles collectors. the downside is we mostly want the mythics. they are an obvious cash grab that insults the customer, but i understand that it may have been necessary for the game to continue, so i'm ok with it in a limited way because of that.
Oh, and on the levelers - love the design, hate the card frames. They're just so cluttered. They just always remind me of Greater Morphling.
Manic Vandal smashing your bongs since 2010
I loved drafting Rise because G/x ramp was by far the best deck and I drafted it 80% of the time and won a ton.
My secondary "cube".
Really out of date cube thread with pictures.
Yea, Rise is probably my favorite limited format of all time. The fact that green was probably the best color in the draft format probably had a lot to do with it. It rewarded good drafting more than most sets though, as you had to have a good plan and constantly be adapting to what you were passed.
(list not current)
My Cube Google Docs Spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AibgWfz0ukmOdDNhOHlucjcxUi1wVy00NDhLbDUtUlE&hl=en_US#gid=8
(list is always current)