Ok so I finally broke down for my Thraximundar deck and paid like $80 on a lot of the good lands including 3 of the ravnica shock lands, 3 of the Eventide filter lands, and I am now up to 5 fetch lands to go for the ravnica dual lands.
With the addition of all this streamlining of my mana base I should now be able to take out a lot of the less efficient ramp like the signets which only accel me one mana.
I already have a few mana stones and ramp but I was hoping for some input on what to upgrade to.
Armillary Sphere, while not techincally accel, is really good for 2+ colour decks - cheap, creates CA, fixes like a boss.
Dreamstone Hedron is something to consider - the jump from 6 to 9 mana is enormous when it's all at once, and you've got the option of cashing it in for 3 cards.
I find Basalt and Grim Monolith to be a bit lacking, unless you're specifically going to abuse them (with something as innocent as Voltatic Key or something as brutal as Rings of Brighthearth). Relic, Chalice, and Lotus are awesomesauce always, though.
The big thing being I want my general out fast and early beating faces in and I want to be able to cast him several times in a match. At 7 mana for first cast the monoliths alone can turn that into a turn 4 play which is amazing.
Depending on how big-mana you want to go, I love dreamstone hedron. It's not really an "explosive start" ramp card, but it does a good job of keeping the momentum going. As a bonus, when it is no longer useful, you can cash in three cards (or, if you play rings of brighthearth, six! Man I love that play).
Not a rock, but walking atlas is actually really good at accelerating you, especially if you can keep it fed. Generally a hand with Atlas and armillary sphere is all I need to get my start.
If you really don't have a budget, add mana crypt too. Sure you sometimes have those games where you're at like 25 life without being hit once, but having a second sol ring is worth it.
If all your rocks tap for over two mana, voltaic key isn't a bad card to include either.
my only problem with the voltaic key is that it makes your stones a bigger target. I have had games where everyone blows up my stones to leave me with a dead key on the board which pisses me off.
Nice call on the Walking Atlas I had totally forgotten about him.
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The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
At three colors, you really can't rely too much on colorless acceleration. That means Thran Dynamo goes from being awesome to only being good and Dreamstone Hedron goes from being good to being cut, period.
I don't like walking atlas much for your deck either- it's only good when you have multiple land cards in your hand, of which you'll have less when you're running artifact accel.
Don't forget to play the Vivid lands. They're fantastic.
I'm not a fan of wayfarer's bauble, personally. I haven't played any three-color decks yet though so I can't really speak for how good it is.
Coalition Relic and Gilded Lotus are just boss. The relic must go in your deck without question. I would not cut your other accelerants though (except the bauble of course)- maybe you could cut a card or two from your maindeck for the accelerants- with a 7CMC general, it's tough to have too much acceleration that also fixes your mana.
If you're running Dynamo and Lotus, one of my favorite 4/5 mana plays is to play the artifact, tap for three then sculpting steel it!
I was just coming in here to promote Sculpting Steel as well, good call. There are so many useful stones and utility artifacts to copy that I'm always happy to draw it.
Ahhh yes Sculpting Steel is very solid I hadnt thought of that one much. I play a bit more competatively than most of the rest of my playgroup so I used to run steel but cut it as nobody else used to run any good artifacts. That is slowly changing though and there are more out there nowdays.
I am interested to see that the signets rank so high on your list. With a full arsinal of ravnica dual lands and 5 good fetch lands to back them I am fairly confident that I should have most of my fixing in line now. I dont like the signets much as they only ramp me by one mana. They also do fixing but I dont think I should need the fixing anymore. Wouldnt it be better to run colorless ramp now as my general is at 7 mana so it would be more beneficial to get multiple mana per stone rather than 1 mana and color fixing???
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Signets have two things going for them: they only cost a net of 1 mana to play and they give you two colored mana for a cost of one colorless. All the truly amazing mana producers generate colorless mana (eg. Sol Ring, Dynamo, Powerstone), so you will often find yourself without enough colored mana. Signets turn that colorless mana into something useful. I mean, you can often find yourself in an early game situation with something like this in play:
And you can't cast Thraximunder because even though you have access to both red and black mana, you can't get them at the same time. Signets help here a ton.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
That's not mana production because it doesn't increase the amount of mana you have faster than making land drops normally would. Still a good card to play, of course.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I guess I missed a few. There are a few 2 drop stones that come into play untapped and produce colorless, and those belong at 15.5. There are also a bunch of 3 drop stones that come into play untapped, which would be at 17. There's Sisay's Ring and Ur-golem's Eye, which are at 18 I guess. And then, and the very bottom of the barrel, is Paradise Plume. It's probably okay to forget Paradise Plum. In fact, it's probably best.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Start at the top and work your way down until you've added as much as you want. I recommend 15 mana accelerators per deck and 38 lands, by the way.
Excuse me but how do you call tangle wire a mana generator? I mean sure it sets everyone back its mana denial to the whole bored and less mana denial for you but it's not true acceleration.
Plus I dont like how Tangle Wire is mostly crap if you don't opening hand it. A late game mana stone can still be used to pull out your general once the cost gets high but tangle wire drops off exponentially in its usefulness.
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The point is that Tangle Wire taps a total of 10 of your opponents permanents (almost all mana) and 3 of yours, not counting the wire (again, almost all mana). So you generally net 7 more early game mana than your opponents for a 3 mana artifact. If you only account for the first two and most painful turns of wire, your opponents lose 4 mana then 3 mana. You lose 3 mana (cast wire), then 2 mana (first tap), then 1 mana (second tap). Tangle Wire puts you one mana up on your opponents for four turns in a row.
Remember, the whole reason you play mana acceleration is so you can get your important cards online earlier. If speed wasn't important, we'd be playing decks with 50 -55 basic lands. Tangle Wire fills the same role, albiet in reverse. It's basically like Grim Monolith or Mana Vault-- an expendable early game mana burst. Technically it's a mana loss, but it produces the same final game state as an early mana burst would.
As far as being a dead card late, I guess that hasn't been my experience. I've found that tapping 4 random permanents is always relevant. You occasionally have to wait to cast it after a board sweeper, but most of the time it's still good even in the late game. Have you played with the card much?
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
The point is that Tangle Wire taps a total of 10 of your opponents permanents (almost all mana) and 3 of yours, not counting the wire (again, almost all mana). So you generally net 7 more early game mana than your opponents for a 3 mana artifact. If you only account for the first two and most painful turns of wire, your opponents lose 4 mana then 3 mana. You lose 3 mana (cast wire), then 2 mana (first tap), then 1 mana (second tap). Tangle Wire puts you one mana up on your opponents for four turns in a row.
Remember, the whole reason you play mana acceleration is so you can get your important cards online earlier. If speed wasn't important, we'd be playing decks with 50 -55 basic lands. Tangle Wire fills the same role, albiet in reverse. It's basically like Grim Monolith or Mana Vault-- an expendable early game mana burst. Technically it's a mana loss, but it produces the same final game state as an early mana burst would.
As far as being a dead card late, I guess that hasn't been my experience. I've found that tapping 4 random permanents is always relevant. You occasionally have to wait to cast it after a board sweeper, but most of the time it's still good even in the late game. Have you played with the card much?
As I said in the above post you do get an advantage in decelerating each opponents mana (more opponents and you have less deceleration than them), but that doesn't equal mana acceleration at all.
Its like saying Armageddon or Winter Orb + Bounce land is mana acceleration, sure it can give you a mana advantage in the right situation, but it isn't mana acceleration.
I don't like walking atlas much for your deck either- it's only good when you have multiple land cards in your hand, of which you'll have less when you're running artifact accel.
Wait, Why would having mana stones exclude him from having 40 lands as well? Always run 40-37 lands, even if you're packing lots of accel. You can make up for the low threat density by having lots of draw.
Oh, I forgot another card that is good with Atlas, though maybe less so depending on how many basics you run: thawing glaciers. Use it on your turn, it comes back to hand. During your opponents' turns, put it back into play with Atlas. Repeat.
The decision as to what artifact accelerants to run comes down to the deck you're running them in- Does it have heavy colour commitments? does it require lots of different colours? Does it have a specific mana cost which it aims to accelerate into?
The only ones which are without a doubt insane and should be in any deck which has access to them are Mana Crypt and Sol Ring the insane speed boost they add to any deck is undeniable.
Beyond that the signets and the talismans are both excellent giving two colours and a single mana for only 2 mana. Darksteel Ingot gives whatever you want and is safe from most artifact removal and Coalition Relic is fantastic in any deck with heavy colour requirements and/or lots of colours.
As an example of how the rating of artifact mana sources change depending on the deck, in Captain Sisay and/or Zur, the Enchanter decks any 2cc artifact accelerant(particularly those which produce coloured mana) become much more important than cards like Gilded Lotus or Darksteel Ingot because by maximizing the number of 2cc accelerants you ensure that you can get the general(which is the centerpoint of the decks strategy) into play 1 turn earlier.
With the addition of all this streamlining of my mana base I should now be able to take out a lot of the less efficient ramp like the signets which only accel me one mana.
I already have a few mana stones and ramp but I was hoping for some input on what to upgrade to.
I currently have the following in my deck:
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Solemn Simulacrum
Darksteel Ingot
Dimir Signet
Izzet Signet
Rakdos Signet
Wayfarer's Bauble
I want to add the following to the deck:
Gilded Lotus
Basalt Monolith
Coalition Relic
Grim Monolith
Everflowing Chalice
anyone have some better ideas than that?
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Dreamstone Hedron is something to consider - the jump from 6 to 9 mana is enormous when it's all at once, and you've got the option of cashing it in for 3 cards.
I find Basalt and Grim Monolith to be a bit lacking, unless you're specifically going to abuse them (with something as innocent as Voltatic Key or something as brutal as Rings of Brighthearth). Relic, Chalice, and Lotus are awesomesauce always, though.
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I might end up trying the Dreamstone Hedron as that is a good one.
EDIT: Ohhhh I totaly forgot about Thran Dynamo...
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Another one that taps for three is thran dynamo.
Not a rock, but walking atlas is actually really good at accelerating you, especially if you can keep it fed. Generally a hand with Atlas and armillary sphere is all I need to get my start.
If you really don't have a budget, add mana crypt too. Sure you sometimes have those games where you're at like 25 life without being hit once, but having a second sol ring is worth it.
If all your rocks tap for over two mana, voltaic key isn't a bad card to include either.
Nice call on the Walking Atlas I had totally forgotten about him.
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1) Sol Ring
2) Mana Crypt
3) Mana Vault
4) Tangle Wire (Yes, this is a mana generator)
5) Grim Monolith
6) Thran Dynamo
7) Worn Powerstone
8) Mind Stone
9) Guild Signets
10) Everflowing Chalice
11) Gilded Lotus
12) Coalition Relic
13) Darksteel Ingot
14) Dreamstone Hedron
15) Talismans
16) All 2 drop mana stones that come into play tapped (Coldsteel Heart, Fire Diamond, etc.)
Start at the top and work your way down until you've added as much as you want. I recommend 15 mana accelerators per deck and 38 lands, by the way.
I don't like walking atlas much for your deck either- it's only good when you have multiple land cards in your hand, of which you'll have less when you're running artifact accel.
Don't forget to play the Vivid lands. They're fantastic.
I'm not a fan of wayfarer's bauble, personally. I haven't played any three-color decks yet though so I can't really speak for how good it is.
Coalition Relic and Gilded Lotus are just boss. The relic must go in your deck without question. I would not cut your other accelerants though (except the bauble of course)- maybe you could cut a card or two from your maindeck for the accelerants- with a 7CMC general, it's tough to have too much acceleration that also fixes your mana.
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I am interested to see that the signets rank so high on your list. With a full arsinal of ravnica dual lands and 5 good fetch lands to back them I am fairly confident that I should have most of my fixing in line now. I dont like the signets much as they only ramp me by one mana. They also do fixing but I dont think I should need the fixing anymore. Wouldnt it be better to run colorless ramp now as my general is at 7 mana so it would be more beneficial to get multiple mana per stone rather than 1 mana and color fixing???
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Island x3
Badlands
Thran Dynamo
And you can't cast Thraximunder because even though you have access to both red and black mana, you can't get them at the same time. Signets help here a ton.
It lets you get ANY land!
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Don't forget Paradise Plume.
Excuse me but how do you call tangle wire a mana generator? I mean sure it sets everyone back its mana denial to the whole bored and less mana denial for you but it's not true acceleration.
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Remember, the whole reason you play mana acceleration is so you can get your important cards online earlier. If speed wasn't important, we'd be playing decks with 50 -55 basic lands. Tangle Wire fills the same role, albiet in reverse. It's basically like Grim Monolith or Mana Vault-- an expendable early game mana burst. Technically it's a mana loss, but it produces the same final game state as an early mana burst would.
As far as being a dead card late, I guess that hasn't been my experience. I've found that tapping 4 random permanents is always relevant. You occasionally have to wait to cast it after a board sweeper, but most of the time it's still good even in the late game. Have you played with the card much?
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As I said in the above post you do get an advantage in decelerating each opponents mana (more opponents and you have less deceleration than them), but that doesn't equal mana acceleration at all.
Its like saying Armageddon or Winter Orb + Bounce land is mana acceleration, sure it can give you a mana advantage in the right situation, but it isn't mana acceleration.
Just my thoughts.
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Wait, Why would having mana stones exclude him from having 40 lands as well? Always run 40-37 lands, even if you're packing lots of accel. You can make up for the low threat density by having lots of draw.
Oh, I forgot another card that is good with Atlas, though maybe less so depending on how many basics you run: thawing glaciers. Use it on your turn, it comes back to hand. During your opponents' turns, put it back into play with Atlas. Repeat.
The only ones which are without a doubt insane and should be in any deck which has access to them are Mana Crypt and Sol Ring the insane speed boost they add to any deck is undeniable.
Beyond that the signets and the talismans are both excellent giving two colours and a single mana for only 2 mana. Darksteel Ingot gives whatever you want and is safe from most artifact removal and Coalition Relic is fantastic in any deck with heavy colour requirements and/or lots of colours.
As an example of how the rating of artifact mana sources change depending on the deck, in Captain Sisay and/or Zur, the Enchanter decks any 2cc artifact accelerant(particularly those which produce coloured mana) become much more important than cards like Gilded Lotus or Darksteel Ingot because by maximizing the number of 2cc accelerants you ensure that you can get the general(which is the centerpoint of the decks strategy) into play 1 turn earlier.
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