I'm not sure if Wizards will ever print enough black instants for Toshiro Umezawa to be good. I like multiplayer, so I can't be using Hatred every turn. Almost completely giving up on him, I turn to a much-more accessible general...
My idea is an extremely general-centric build based around stealing some stuff but hopefully not being overly-d-baggy. (I don't mind big mana, but I don't want infinite combos. I couldn't care less about winning.)
Leechridden Swamp doesn't seem worth it, IMO. Exsanguinate, Damnation, and Diabolic Tutor seem solid, though. Any reason you're not playing Gauntlet of Power? It might be better than, say, Cathodion. In fact, it's so good, it makes me want to run like the wind as excitement shivers up and down my spine.
I make alterations every now and them but nothing significant enough to post about...until now, I guess.
- Nightmare
+ Steel Hellkite
Nightmare's not bad...but I don't want a variable strength creature dependent on my lands. SK has that possibility of killing what black cannot.
- Vault of Whispers
- Cranial Plating
- Subversion
+ Swamp
+ Reassembling Skeleton
+ Gate to Phyrexia
I'm removing the "artifacts matter" cards. Mephitic Ooze is probably next, but I still have enough artifacts to make him worth it. Weirdly, though, I want to give Geth access to pilfering more artifacts, so I think I'm gonna track down a Gate to Phyrexia. I don't have a ton of sac outlets, and I want one, maybe two. This one and/or Infernal Tribute? I'd appreciate feedback on this topic. The skeleton works with them and Amulet of Vigor. I don't want a sac theme, but you should always have options.
I don't know if I should keep Heartstone. It helps Geth, Drana, SK, Magus, XDemon, skeleton, and probably NecrOoze......also, my opponents. Probably looking to cut it. I have Thran Turbine....and Rings of Brighthearth. I thought about cutting the latter, but it works too well with lands.
Koskun Falls vs. Crawlspace? KF works with stealing small critters and my own skeleton (I love the idea of tapping him, sac'ing him to Gate, and then bringing him back). However, I don't run a ton of creatures overall, and Crawlspace costs one less. People have more resources later (and at least one of my friends runs super-goblin-aggro). Or do I just keep both as decent defensive measures? (I don't like when people attack me....I throw Crawlspace into most early versions of my decks and Ghostly Prison effects into EVERY one.)
Also, if you want big, non-infinite mana, there are a few other places you should probably look:
Extraplanar Lens - It has the potential for card disadvantage, but it is another mana doubler. I would consider shifting your mana base over to Snow Lands if you were to use this though, so it doesn't help people playing multi-colored decks running regular swamps. This also gives you access to Scrying Sheets as another deck thinning/drawing engine, and Sunstone as a way to keep yourself alive
Since you're already using a NPH-spoiled card in Screamwhip, why not Sphere of Suns? Praetor's Grasp also seems good as a way to steal mana-doubling artifacts and things like Cabal Coffers from other players. Vesuva makes for a second copy of coffers, which can further increase your mana production. It can also be used as a way to kill off legendary lands, which never hurts.
Noooooot too sure you addressed any of my concerns....except the permanent-destroying one. I forgot to update it with the Spine, which is currently in the deck.
I don't disagree with the value of any of your suggestions. I'm just not going to run my deck that way.
I'm not gunning for HUGE MANA as a theme. If I generate a decent amount of mana, that's okay, but for right now....I don't want to create such an exorbitant amount.
Not to mention that I have never found hunting down 30 snow swamps that easy...more and more I'm trying to cut out the non-black-producing lands, too. Oh, I'll definitely look into Caged Sun when it arrives. Not sure I like the cmc, though.
We shall see. I like the Lens's cmc (as I'm generally trying to cut down the average cost of this deck), and 6 for the sun won't break the bank.....I just don't want either in my opening hand.
Vesuva requires Coffers to already be out...I'm a gambler, but I'm not relying on getting one card out every game. Hell, I might cut Deserted Temple.
Ugh. Recursion is the worst. Is it good? Yes. Do I want to do more with my creatures other than Geth? Not really. I just picked ones that complimented his ability. Using my graveyard in almost any way is something I've never been a fan of; luckily Geth picks on my opponents', which is quite different in my book.
Meh. Drawing more cards bores me. Again, it's great, but I could care less if I have to topdeck.....I play burn in legacy. =P The best option to me there was Moriok Replica since I can sub out Cathodion. (I'm upset about the former card overall, though, because that typing is wasted on it.) I was asking for help with sac outlets, though, and Infernal Tribute is card drawing...that's two birds/one stone in my book.
My final impression of Praetor's Grip is that it's a dbag card for my playgroup. We generally like each other. I'm the only one that *****es about updates to the banned list until they take out their Academy or Emrakul.
Mini-update: I love the way this deck runs. Honestly, I think I've had better luck in singles. Praetor's Grasp digging out someone's Sol Ring? Just fantastic.
I kinda want to add Sword of Body and Mind...I might cut Altar of Shadows. Not sure I've gotten a chance to play it yet, but when I hit that amount of mana, I've either won the game or need it for everything else. SoBaM furthers the overall GY dump plan, and though I play against Sharuum, BR Wort, and Doran, I don't mind having more targets for Clique or Geth.
Other possible additions:
- SoFaF? Geth loves more mana, but I have to be swinging a bit to get the most out of this one.....which I might use in another deck anyway. Pro green and black is great spot removal protection, though....but my Geth dies to board wipes most of the time.
- Ink-Eyes? More aggro-focused but another way to get their dead guys on my side.
- I gotta test Phyrexian Reclamation against Strands of Night...haven't gotten the latter out yet.
- I don't like Extraplanar Lens with my playgroup....they ALL use black. Might need to upgrade to snow-covered swamps. Sad face.
- Rune-Scarred Demon over Diabolic Tutor?
I can't help but think you ought to be running Altar of Dementia. It provides even more food for Geth, while allowing you to reuse opponents' ETB effects immediately, at no extra cost. I also love that it allows you to nullify top-of-library tutors at will.
I've never tried Strands of Night, or even seen it run in EDH before, but I've always been curious. It seems absolutely nutty, especially with Rune-Scarred Demon.
BRG Xira Arien BRG UR Melek, Izzet Paragon UR WUG Jenara, Asura of War WUG WRG Mayael the Anima WRG WB Triad of Fates WB BG Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR WR Aurelia the Warleader WR WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
AoD: I love it. My problem is that it only sacs creatures, but it's never far from mind. When I find one, I'll try it out.
RSD: I'll get one.
TT: It works better in theory. Best I ever did with it was pop two Panoramas (when I still ran them) at once. I just don't have have Sol Ring.
Scion: I hadn't thought of it before. If I add Ink-Eyes, I'll throw him in the deck. I gotta find more ways to punch through (since my friends always have SOME kind of defense up before I can get my top creatures out).
AoD: I love it. My problem is that it only sacs creatures, but it's never far from mind. When I find one, I'll try it out.
RSD: I'll get one.
TT: It works better in theory. Best I ever did with it was pop two Panoramas (when I still ran them) at once. I just don't have have Sol Ring.
Scion: I hadn't thought of it before. If I add Ink-Eyes, I'll throw him in the deck. I gotta find more ways to punch through (since my friends always have SOME kind of defense up before I can get my top creatures out).
filth, paired with urborg its awesome, and you mentioned a black heavy meta....i use it in skittles.edh
All right, this set of revisions will deal with the manabase.
How do you guys view fetches? As additional basics? In time I will acquire all of them for this deck, but I wonder if their inclusion means I should feel free to add up to four other nonbasics. My worry is hitting too many colorless-producing lands.
Sac lands: P.Tower is a necessity, I think. Should I have BOTH High Market and Miren? Just one?
LD lands: I won't buy a Wasteland. C'mon. I will use the other three lands, though. Do I need to?
Glaciers and the Coffers package stays.
I hate CIPT lands. Bojuka Bog is the one I will allow because that effect is too good (and it eventually taps for B).
I used to have Spawning Pool, but it was on my list to cut. Sometimes I think I'm too light on creatures (the idea of the deck is that I should be using my opponents' creatures), and that dude filled the role. However, I'll never dig it up with the Map, and he never played a huge role. Ever. I cut it.
I don't mind the cyclers, but they might be the next to go. If I get a Crucible (which this deck might warrant with the fetches and LD lands), they might stay.
The first mana rock I hesitate on is Charcoal Diamond. I want something else for the 2 cmc spot, but the other two options are Fellwar Stone (my buddies DO all play black...) and Everflowing Chalice.
The second is Extraplanar Lens because, again, my buddies play black. I think I've been playing it wrong (dropping it WAAAY too early), so I will leave it for now. We shall see.
Is Ashes to Ashes better than Consuming Vapors? Do I need more creature spot removal in general? Again, mine's all tacked onto creatures.
Not sure I like exiling things in a Geth deck. Dregs of Sorrow is lovely if you're running a decent amount of mana acceleration (which you are). Although you also said your friends run a lot of B too? In which case it might sometimes not work for you.
CREATURES (16)
1 Hex Parasite
2 Reassembling Skeleton
3 Phyrexian Rager
3 Liliana's Specter
3 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Nekrataal
4 Crypt Ghast
4 Solemn Simulacrum
5 Shriekmaw
5 Bloodgift Demon
5 Puppeteer Clique
5 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
6 Steel Hellkite
6 Nirkana Revenant
7 Rune-Scarred Demon
8 Avatar of Woe
ARTIFACTS (8)
1 Amulet of Vigor
1 Altar of the Brood
1 Executioner's Capsule
2 Mindcrank
2 Scroll Rack
3 Mimic Vat
3 Rings of Brighthearth
4 Nevinyrral's Disk
ENCHANTMENTS (5)
2 Animate Dead
2 Gate to Phyrexia
2 Phyrexian Arena
4 No Mercy
5 Black Market
1 Reanimate
2 Exsanguinate
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Damnable Pact
2 Night's Whisper
2 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Profane Command
3 Dark Deal
3 Fortuitous Find
3 Praetor's Grasp
4 Mutilate
4 Syphon Mind
6 Life's Finale
6 Beseech the Queen
7 All is Dust
8 Decree of Pain
INSTANTS (3)
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Imp's Mischief
5 Wretched Confluence
EQUIPMENT (2)
2 Nim Deathmantle
3 Darksteel Plate
MANA ENABLERS (9)
1 Sol Ring
1 Expedition Map
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
2 Mind Stone
2 Fellwar Stone
3 Extraplanar Lens
4 Thran Dynamo
5 Gauntlet of Power
6 Caged Sun
0 Marsh Flats
0 Ash Barrens
0 Polluted Delta
0 Bloodstained Mire
0 Verdant Catacombs
0 Strip Mine
0 Wasteland
0 Bojuka Bog
0 Buried Ruin
0 High Market
0 Barren Moor
0 Polluted Mire
0 Cabal Coffers
0 Phyrexian Tower
0 Deserted Temple
0 Thawing Glaciers
0 Volrath's Stronghold
0 Geier Reach Sanitarium
0 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
21 Swamps
My idea is an extremely general-centric build based around stealing some stuff but hopefully not being overly-d-baggy. (I don't mind big mana, but I don't want infinite combos. I couldn't care less about winning.)
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Any lands I should have? Leechridden Swamp? Should I ever get a fetch, they'll go in over the Panoramas....I still need the Esper one.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
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I might find a place for Mesmeric Orb, too.
PS: I <3 you.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
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- Nightmare
+ Steel Hellkite
Nightmare's not bad...but I don't want a variable strength creature dependent on my lands. SK has that possibility of killing what black cannot.
- Vault of Whispers
- Cranial Plating
- Subversion
+ Swamp
+ Reassembling Skeleton
+ Gate to Phyrexia
I'm removing the "artifacts matter" cards. Mephitic Ooze is probably next, but I still have enough artifacts to make him worth it. Weirdly, though, I want to give Geth access to pilfering more artifacts, so I think I'm gonna track down a Gate to Phyrexia. I don't have a ton of sac outlets, and I want one, maybe two. This one and/or Infernal Tribute? I'd appreciate feedback on this topic. The skeleton works with them and Amulet of Vigor. I don't want a sac theme, but you should always have options.
- Nightmare Lash
+ Screamwhip
Duh?
I don't know if I should keep Heartstone. It helps Geth, Drana, SK, Magus, XDemon, skeleton, and probably NecrOoze......also, my opponents. Probably looking to cut it. I have Thran Turbine....and Rings of Brighthearth. I thought about cutting the latter, but it works too well with lands.
Koskun Falls vs. Crawlspace? KF works with stealing small critters and my own skeleton (I love the idea of tapping him, sac'ing him to Gate, and then bringing him back). However, I don't run a ton of creatures overall, and Crawlspace costs one less. People have more resources later (and at least one of my friends runs super-goblin-aggro). Or do I just keep both as decent defensive measures? (I don't like when people attack me....I throw Crawlspace into most early versions of my decks and Ghostly Prison effects into EVERY one.)
Fleshwrither has too few options. Should I just get a transmute card in black? Dimir House Guard and Brainspoil both seem "good enough."
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StaffAlso, if you want big, non-infinite mana, there are a few other places you should probably look:
Extraplanar Lens - It has the potential for card disadvantage, but it is another mana doubler. I would consider shifting your mana base over to Snow Lands if you were to use this though, so it doesn't help people playing multi-colored decks running regular swamps. This also gives you access to Scrying Sheets as another deck thinning/drawing engine, and Sunstone as a way to keep yourself alive
Since you're already using a NPH-spoiled card in Screamwhip, why not Sphere of Suns? Praetor's Grasp also seems good as a way to steal mana-doubling artifacts and things like Cabal Coffers from other players.
Vesuva makes for a second copy of coffers, which can further increase your mana production. It can also be used as a way to kill off legendary lands, which never hurts.
You may also want more draw in your deck, which currently seems a little light on it. Black has access to card draw in all sorts of forms - Creatures (Moriok Replica, Graveborn Muse, Phyrexian Gargantua), Enchantments (Necropotence), Sorceries (Promise of Power, Ambition's Cost, Ancient Craving, Night's Whisper, Sign in Blood), and instants (Moonlight Bargain, Necrologia).
There's also the issue of recursion. One of black's strongest suits is its ability to bring back creatures again and again. Try Phyrexian Reclamation and Volrath's Stronghold, two of the most powerful options. Corpse Dance and Coffin Queen are also very good.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
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I don't disagree with the value of any of your suggestions. I'm just not going to run my deck that way.
I'm not gunning for HUGE MANA as a theme. If I generate a decent amount of mana, that's okay, but for right now....I don't want to create such an exorbitant amount.
Not to mention that I have never found hunting down 30 snow swamps that easy...more and more I'm trying to cut out the non-black-producing lands, too. Oh, I'll definitely look into Caged Sun when it arrives. Not sure I like the cmc, though.
We shall see. I like the Lens's cmc (as I'm generally trying to cut down the average cost of this deck), and 6 for the sun won't break the bank.....I just don't want either in my opening hand.
Vesuva requires Coffers to already be out...I'm a gambler, but I'm not relying on getting one card out every game. Hell, I might cut Deserted Temple.
Ugh. Recursion is the worst. Is it good? Yes. Do I want to do more with my creatures other than Geth? Not really. I just picked ones that complimented his ability. Using my graveyard in almost any way is something I've never been a fan of; luckily Geth picks on my opponents', which is quite different in my book.
Meh. Drawing more cards bores me. Again, it's great, but I could care less if I have to topdeck.....I play burn in legacy. =P The best option to me there was Moriok Replica since I can sub out Cathodion. (I'm upset about the former card overall, though, because that typing is wasted on it.) I was asking for help with sac outlets, though, and Infernal Tribute is card drawing...that's two birds/one stone in my book.
My final impression of Praetor's Grip is that it's a dbag card for my playgroup. We generally like each other. I'm the only one that *****es about updates to the banned list until they take out their Academy or Emrakul.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
I kinda want to add Sword of Body and Mind...I might cut Altar of Shadows. Not sure I've gotten a chance to play it yet, but when I hit that amount of mana, I've either won the game or need it for everything else. SoBaM furthers the overall GY dump plan, and though I play against Sharuum, BR Wort, and Doran, I don't mind having more targets for Clique or Geth.
Other possible additions:
- SoFaF? Geth loves more mana, but I have to be swinging a bit to get the most out of this one.....which I might use in another deck anyway. Pro green and black is great spot removal protection, though....but my Geth dies to board wipes most of the time.
- Ink-Eyes? More aggro-focused but another way to get their dead guys on my side.
- I gotta test Phyrexian Reclamation against Strands of Night...haven't gotten the latter out yet.
- I don't like Extraplanar Lens with my playgroup....they ALL use black. Might need to upgrade to snow-covered swamps. Sad face.
- Rune-Scarred Demon over Diabolic Tutor?
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
I've never tried Strands of Night, or even seen it run in EDH before, but I've always been curious. It seems absolutely nutty, especially with Rune-Scarred Demon.
Also, I LOVE the Thran Turbine tech.
Have you looked at Scion of Darkness as another reanimator guy?
Currently running:
BRG Xira Arien BRG
UR Melek, Izzet Paragon UR
WUG Jenara, Asura of War WUG
WRG Mayael the Anima WRG
WB Triad of Fates WB
BG Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR
WR Aurelia the Warleader WR
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
RSD: I'll get one.
TT: It works better in theory. Best I ever did with it was pop two Panoramas (when I still ran them) at once. I just don't have have Sol Ring.
Scion: I hadn't thought of it before. If I add Ink-Eyes, I'll throw him in the deck. I gotta find more ways to punch through (since my friends always have SOME kind of defense up before I can get my top creatures out).
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
filth, paired with urborg its awesome, and you mentioned a black heavy meta....i use it in skittles.edh
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
UWGRBSliver Queen Control p=8329402#post8329402
RBUWG Slivers http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=363247 RETIRED
G Omnath http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7428848#post7428848
Legacy
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(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
How do you guys view fetches? As additional basics? In time I will acquire all of them for this deck, but I wonder if their inclusion means I should feel free to add up to four other nonbasics. My worry is hitting too many colorless-producing lands.
Sac lands: P.Tower is a necessity, I think. Should I have BOTH High Market and Miren? Just one?
LD lands: I won't buy a Wasteland. C'mon. I will use the other three lands, though. Do I need to?
Glaciers and the Coffers package stays.
I hate CIPT lands. Bojuka Bog is the one I will allow because that effect is too good (and it eventually taps for B).
I used to have Spawning Pool, but it was on my list to cut. Sometimes I think I'm too light on creatures (the idea of the deck is that I should be using my opponents' creatures), and that dude filled the role. However, I'll never dig it up with the Map, and he never played a huge role. Ever. I cut it.
I don't mind the cyclers, but they might be the next to go. If I get a Crucible (which this deck might warrant with the fetches and LD lands), they might stay.
The first mana rock I hesitate on is Charcoal Diamond. I want something else for the 2 cmc spot, but the other two options are Fellwar Stone (my buddies DO all play black...) and Everflowing Chalice.
The second is Extraplanar Lens because, again, my buddies play black. I think I've been playing it wrong (dropping it WAAAY too early), so I will leave it for now. We shall see.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
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(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
- Demonic
- Diabolic
- Beseech the Queen
- Dimir House Guard
- Rune-Scarred Demon
Anyone have any early experience with Increasing Ambition, maybe enough to warrant its inclusion in the deck, perhaps over Diabolic?
Is Ashes to Ashes better than Consuming Vapors? Do I need more creature spot removal in general? Again, mine's all tacked onto creatures.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Not sure I like exiling things in a Geth deck. Dregs of Sorrow is lovely if you're running a decent amount of mana acceleration (which you are). Although you also said your friends run a lot of B too? In which case it might sometimes not work for you.
Playtesting | Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Narset, Enlightened Master | Ephara, God of the Polis
Established | Gahiji, Honored One | Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker | Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo | Rubinia Soulsinger
Retired | Medomai the Ageless | Diaochan, Artful Beauty