What I find funny from all of this is Ben is a vocal opponent of the reserve list. If it was abolished, there is no way SCG could do what they are doing.
I see this come up a lot in these threads. I'd like to clarify why reprints would help SCG and other stores.
Businesses make profit from 2 things, margin and volume. If a store buys FoW at $30 and sells at $60, they get $30 for each sale. When they cannot stock at these prices they have to either not sell any (volume = 0 : profit= 0) or raise buy prices to get stock so they have some volume to sell.
Raising buy prices without raising the sale price reduces the margin. If there is still more demand than they can accommodate, they will raise the sell price to slow demand. This reduces their volume but increases the margin again.
This continues up to where we are now at $60/$90. There is a balancing point where the number of people buying vs selling will be fairly equal.
Reprints can help this model by massively increasing volume. A reprint comes along from WoTC available to stores for $10 and they are able to sell at $20. The amount of people willing and able to pay $20 (vs $90) will be drastically higher and volume will more than enough to account for loss in margins.
In short, moving 4x the amount of product at 1/2x the margin is more money. Investing more capital into a product with a constant margin and volume also doesn't help businesses.
I get the feeling they are raising prices because the market will bear it.
this is the exact thing i am saying. the only difference is that i'm not naive enough to think that i could charge virtually anything i want for a card on the day-of an event and not expect it to sell. the control the event they are selling at. when i say $infinity, i do not literally mean $infinity. clearly there is some limit to the amount of money they can charge (they can't charge $250 per copy). however, if the cap for the card is at or greater than $250, people will still buy it at $250. you don't know what the market will bear, but if i can sell a copy of a card on my website for $90 and have trouble keeping that card in stock, i can obviously also sell it on-site for $90 or more given the convenience of providing a copy of a card you don't have the day of an event you need that card for.
this is the exact thing i am saying. the only difference is that i'm not naive enough to think that i could charge virtually anything i want for a card on the day-of an event and not expect it to sell. the control the event they are selling at. when i say $infinity, i do not literally mean $infinity. clearly there is some limit to the amount of money they can charge (they can't charge $250 per copy). however, if the cap for the card is at or greater than $250, people will still buy it at $250. you don't know what the market will bear, but if i can sell a copy of a card on my website for $90 and have trouble keeping that card in stock, i can obviously also sell it on-site for $90 or more given the convenience of providing a copy of a card you don't have the day of an event you need that card for.
Correct. The prices of Legacy staples have been artificially low for a while. Based on demand and rarity they should be 3-4x the price of Standard.
People who have been saying, why buy standard Legacy costs the same have been heard loud and clear, so now everyone wants in on the game.
If based on market principles Standard decks are $500 then $1500-$2000 for a Legacy deck shouldn't be that surprising.
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I don't know what decks you are all playing that require a $1k investment. You can totally get away playing legacy without the duals. You may be limited in what you can play, but you don't auto-lose by not having them.
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I play this:
Standard:
Rotation is coming...
Modern: GGGSTOMPY
ZOO (Goyf-less)
Legacy:
Brewing
EDH:
Too many to name.
I don't know what decks you are all playing that require a $1k investment. You can totally get away playing legacy without the duals. You may be limited in what you can play, but you don't auto-lose by not having them.
you're not playing the best deck if you're not playing a deck with duals or at least FoW in it.
the decks that have access to duals and/or force of will are just so much better than decks without them. even goblins, which you can very well build something resembling the best build of the deck without any duals or forces, needs access to that extra color of mana to have an optimal list and play cards you don't have access to in mono-red.
this is the exact thing i am saying. the only difference is that i'm not naive enough to think that i could charge virtually anything i want for a card on the day-of an event and not expect it to sell. the control the event they are selling at. when i say $infinity, i do not literally mean $infinity. clearly there is some limit to the amount of money they can charge (they can't charge $250 per copy). however, if the cap for the card is at or greater than $250, people will still buy it at $250. you don't know what the market will bear, but if i can sell a copy of a card on my website for $90 and have trouble keeping that card in stock, i can obviously also sell it on-site for $90 or more given the convenience of providing a copy of a card you don't have the day of an event you need that card for.
I'm just saying that reaching the equilibrium point with regards to what the market will bear is not a bad thing. Kijin, I'm pretty sure you understand economic principles. I am just a little tired of the people coming on here to complain about the rising price of legacy because it means they can't afford to play it, and therefore it is unfair, ridiculous and should be changed or something.
I am just a little tired of the people coming on here to complain about the rising price of legacy because it means they can't afford to play it, and therefore it is unfair, ridiculous and should be changed or something.
--S
well, that's a problem all the same, whether it's just gape-mouthed complaining or well-examined analysis, people being priced out of the game isn't healthy for the game. legacy was quickly growing and now people being scared off by a combination of rapidly fluctuating and unstable prices as well as extremely and increasingly astronomical prices isn't going to help grow the format. when a format becomes stagnant and the entry cost is prohibitive, no matter how long the cards last for, people aren't going to join in. a slowing/lack of people joining in reduces tournament numbers and interest in the cards. interest waning means fewer events. fewer events means a dying/dead format.
those presumptions (which are not entirely presumptions -- we have enough people being vocal about how they're unable to play because they can't spend $90 on each card to optimize their deck) are more doomsaying than anything else, but it looks kind of grim to have this value explosion all at once and all of a sudden and only between weeks.
And to add to what Kijin said, certain decks are now seriously absurd in price even if they were expensive to begin with. Team America was always a costly deck but right now if you want to build it from scratch you're going to be spending over 500 bucks on 4x FoW and 4x Wasteland alone; and that's if you get a great deal! Not to mention the duals, fetches, Goyfs, etc. and again, while I don't think we've hit the point of no return quite yet it has become more cost prohibitive to play such a great and varied format.
Then again, I feel like all those standard only players should have listened to us earlier, ha! (just kidding...)
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Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
people being priced out of the game isn't healthy for the game. legacy was quickly growing and now people being scared off by a combination of rapidly fluctuating and unstable prices as well as extremely and increasingly astronomical prices isn't going to help grow the format. when a format becomes stagnant and the entry cost is prohibitive, no matter how long the cards last for, people aren't going to join in. a slowing/lack of people joining in reduces tournament numbers and interest in the cards. interest waning means fewer events. fewer events means a dying/dead format.
those presumptions (which are not entirely presumptions -- we have enough people being vocal about how they're unable to play because they can't spend $90 on each card to optimize their deck) are more doomsaying than anything else, but it looks kind of grim to have this value explosion all at once and all of a sudden and only between weeks.
The only format I can think of ever being too cost-prohibitive is Vintage, and that's mostly due to the P9 requirement requiring an initial investment of several thousand dollars before even beginning to building a deck. That said, I've always favored a laissez-faire style of economic growth. The market will autocorrect on its own most/all of the time. If it gets priced out of the reach of most people, there will be fewer people buying it and the prices will autocorrect until it hits equilibrium anyway.
As long as the product is moving, there will be tournament support for it from the stores like SCG. If it slows or stagnates, they'll most likely adjust prices first. If they somehow universally kill interest in legacy (seems unlikely, but... maybe?) then people would need to start taking more drastic action. But that's still a ways off. I just take the rapid price fluctuation to mean that there's just more demand than supply right now.
The only format I can think of ever being too cost-prohibitive is Vintage, and that's mostly due to the P9 requirement requiring an initial investment of several thousand dollars before even beginning to building a deck. That said, I've always favored a laissez-faire style of economic growth. The market will autocorrect on its own most/all of the time. If it gets priced out of the reach of most people, there will be fewer people buying it and the prices will autocorrect until it hits equilibrium anyway.
that isn't good for the format. prices and equilibrium are completely irrelevant if no one is playing the game and new people aren't signing up. you can't assume prices will adjust before demand does, because that's generally not how the magic market works, particularly with limited/rare issue commodities that require playset investment before you can even play the game.
as referenced in viktheslick's post above yours, $500 is the roughly bare minimum investment required for a new player who wants to play a 4 FoW, 4 Wasteland Legacy deck (there are many of these) -- this assumes the player has literally every other card in the maindeck and sideboard, assumes 0 fetch or dual lands need to be invested in, that they held onto all of their Aether Vials, Sensei's Divining Tops, or the like, and that they buy at this very second (because at the rate things are fluctuating at, who knows if tomorrow we won't see a sudden surge in Sorrow's Path?). and that's assuming many things before a single dollar is spent on cards. $500 is an entire very good standard deck -- it's roughly two complete Boros decks and maybe a few dollars shy of a complete UW Cawblade deck (fuzzy math has me at $475 without bargain hunting on Cawblade), and the latter has contents good across multiple formats that you can potentially ship to players of older formats before/after they rotate from standard. it is very easy, given that, to see how people can complain about being priced out of the format or see that this is where we may be headed.
we haven't gotten there yet. but it's an unstable time that i'm not the biggest fan of as a recent-in-the-relative-sense comer to legacy as a format.
that isn't good for the format. prices and equilibrium are completely irrelevant if no one is playing the game and new people aren't signing up. you can't assume prices will adjust before demand does, because that's generally not how the magic market works, particularly with limited/rare issue commodities that require playset investment before you can even play the game.
as referenced in viktheslick's post above yours, $500 is the roughly bare minimum investment required for a new player who wants to play a 4 FoW, 4 Wasteland Legacy deck (there are many of these) -- this assumes the player has literally every other card in the maindeck and sideboard, assumes 0 fetch or dual lands need to be invested in, that they held onto all of their Aether Vials, Sensei's Divining Tops, or the like, and that they buy at this very second (because at the rate things are fluctuating at, who knows if tomorrow we won't see a sudden surge in Sorrow's Path?). and that's assuming many things before a single dollar is spent on cards. $500 is an entire very good standard deck -- it's roughly two complete Boros decks and maybe a few dollars shy of a complete UW Cawblade deck (fuzzy math has me at $475 without bargain hunting on Cawblade), and the latter has contents good across multiple formats that you can potentially ship to players of older formats before/after they rotate from standard. it is very easy, given that, to see how people can complain about being priced out of the format or see that this is where we may be headed.
we haven't gotten there yet. but it's an unstable time that i'm not the biggest fan of as a recent-in-the-relative-sense comer to legacy as a format.
But it doesn't require a playset investment to be competitive at legacy. There are many competitive decks that don't require FoW, or a playset of Wastelands. You can play affinity, belcher, enchantress, or dredge without either. Getting a playset of wastelands without forces allows you to build several competitive decks (rock, D&T, zoo, elves, gobs, etc.) too.
Force is a requirement if you want to play blue competitively, but I don't see how that's really any different than needing Jace to play blue competitively in standard right now.
I don't see Force/Wasteland as being as big a prerequisite for the format like the moxen + lotus are for vintage. That said, with regards to the format... I don't think it'd be just like prices hitting a breaking point and all of a sudden everyone abandons the format forever. I'd think that the prices will rise until the format starts to lose popularity, then the prices will fall and the situation will autocorrect itself.
Can you provide an example of a situation where a previously-healthy format has died due to prices rising?
Sillia, some of the examples you gave are a little misleading though. Dredge is cheap, for sure, and so is Affinity. But cheap is relative; LED-less Dredge will still cost at least 100 bucks. Affinity will cost either a set of Tezz and Mox Opals or a set of Opals and Ravagers. Belcher runs at least one dual and depending on the version maybe two, as well as a full set of LEDs and Chrome Moxen and other key cards.
I never said you require a playset of those cards to be competitive either; certainly you can build competitive Legacy burn for cheap - even then though, the most competitive build runs 12x fetches. That's going to run you about 150 bucks. My point is that the price point has shifted tremendously - previously you could easily get a set of Wastelands for 80 and a set of Force for 150 on ebay. Now you would be VERY lucky to get two of each for the same 230 bucks. Can you not see how that would be detrimental?
Your example with Jace is valid; however it should be noted that most competitive players I know that can't afford a set of Jaces simply DON'T PLAY BLUE. Similarly if you want to build Goblins and can't afford a set of Wastelands and Ports (which again will be around 350 bucks at least now) then you might avoid entering the format altogether if you are a competitive player.
Quote from Sillia »
Getting a playset of wastelands without forces allows you to build several competitive decks (rock, D&T, zoo, elves, gobs, etc.) too.
Come on, that is really a fallcious oversimplification. Rock requires 3x SDT, 4x Thoughtseize, 3x Mox Diamond, 4x Tarmogoyf, several lesser but sometimes difficult to acquire staple rares like Dark Confidant and Knight of the Reliquary, at least 5x duals, a Maze of Ith, a Karakas AND 8 fetches. Death and Taxes requires at least 3x Karakas and a set of Ports, along with 3x Stoneforge Mystic, a SoFi (which is 50 bucks now) and a Jitte. Zoo requires 6-7 duals, 10 fetches, 4x Goyf, a lot of 10 dollar rares (Hierarch in GSZ versions, GSZ itself, KotR, Lavamancer). Elves is fairly cheap but the full on combo version requires 4x Gaea's Cradle. I already mentioned Goblins and it's definitely NOT a cheap deck - in addition to the Wastelands you need a set of Ports, Vials, Lackeys, Piledrivers and lesser goblins. Oh did I mention duals and fetches if you splash for either color combination?
I mean, I understand your point but you are also ignoring the true, total cost of all of these decks. It is quite high for most if not all of them and not something easy to plunk down. Comparatively top tier RDW is like 180 with fetches but all of those cards are in-print and easier to trade for. Caw-Blade is expensive due to 3x Gideon, 4x Jace, 4x Mystic and even then is not impossible to trade for everything. Finding people who will willingly trade you into the Legacy format is getting rarer and rarer due to the price spiking.
I have plenty of FoW and Wastelands and though I need stuff for combo in Legacy (LEDs and such) I have literally NO incentive to move any of these extra for any reason since they just keep going up. I'm not even using all my FoWs and one of my friends offered 350 for a set last week, cash, and I turned him down - not to be cruel, just because I didn't need the money and wanted to hang on to them due to market fluctuation. My point is, even now getting into Legacy is not impossible but it is FAR more difficult to acquire all the cards reasonably for any top tier deck (and I mean ALL the cards).
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Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
Seeing the price hike in the past 3 weeks on all the legacy cards, I thought this would be a fun discussion. What cards are overpriced for their legacy value right now, and which are under? My thoughts are as follows:
Undervalued: Plateau and Scrubland- Both of these seem to be dual land red headed stepchildren and for some reason tend to be 10-20 below the median for duals. Let's be honest though, Duals are Duals and always will be. I recently bought 2 plateaus for 35 a piece and 1 scrub for 40, all near mint. All these cards have at least a home, and legacy boros seems to be a real possibility in my eyes since the new block had red and white playing very nice together. Totally feel they have no where to go but up and are totally worth trading for or buying at going rate before they go up.
Bridge from Below - Dredge is a tier one deck, does some of the most unfair wins in all of magic, and for some reason is actually one of the cheapest decks to build. This card costs less than most of the standard playable rares, it can only go up as it is the core of the deck. I would probably lump the Grave troll in this list as well.
Overvalued: Volcanic Island - I've seen this break 80 recently and go as high as 90. I understand it has blue on it, and it is a dual land so it should be valuable, but I can't really make out why. The decks that use it are not widespread from what i have seen in legacy, vintage is not such a force on the price market to make this jump. If you have them hold them, if you don't then hold off.
Candelabra of Tawnos - It's good in 1 deck that I know of, and that deck is pretty fringe and arguable if it's even better than the all instant version of high tide. Card is even risky now that steel sabotage is around as well as stifle, making a countered Candelabra a potential hard stop to your combo. Don't think cloudpost is going to jump in popularity either as its not a very strong build. This card is at the very top of its price point just because of scarcity but has no where to go but down.
Would love to see people contribute to this list. Note that this is not really meant to be purely based on price, as price is just a reflection of the cards rarity and play value, so those all need to be reflected in evaluating.
As an owner of both a full 9 (Counting Vault) And most of the legacy staples needed to play blue (FoW, wasteland, the 16 blue duals and fetches) I have to say, esp. since I put this collection together over the last year, since I had been out of mtg for quite a while, (Read: 3-4 years...) I've spent close to $12k in cash and sell-able staple cards, this game is quite expensive no matter what deck/format you'd like to play, with the exception of limited (Which has also gone up considerably in price since pre-ravnica when I stopped playing, up to $15 from $10), However, look at the prices of EVERYTHING in everyday life, and minimum wage... Gas was under $2 a gallon when I quit playing back in the day, milk wasnt $3-5 a gallon, and cigarettes were $2-3 a pack, minimum wage was $5.25 in the state I lived in, and is now $7.25.
The years have gone on and the world has turned, and money has become worth much less then it was. I dont think we can blame SCG for the price of Wasteland any more then we can blame the President for the value of a Dollar.
WE can blame Wizards of the Coast, or Hasbro (Their evil overlords...) just as much as we can blame AIG and the Leahman Brothers for the housing bubble and the rise of CDO's. However, they aren't truly at fault.
We must face reality, and the truth, and turn toward the mirror and point the finger where it belongs.
At ourselves.
WE, representing the Magic playing community, are at fault...
It is our greed, and our desire to play, regardless of the personal and financial cost, that make the prices of all these cards we ***** about so high.
Force of Will was a $5 card when it was an extended Staple, Wasteland was $1 on average, $2.5 if you found someone with a mint playset.
These cards werent expensive back in the day, then again, Black Lotus was $350 for a mint condition Unlimited Copy.
And we thought those prices were scary.
I recently paid $750 for my mint condition, double signed Black Lotus, off of feEbay.
And was so happy to find such a good deal, I didnt hesitate to click "Buy-it-Now".
I look at some of the "pimp" threads, at this site and others, and see fellows with 20+ Guru Islands, and then on MOTL, when I trade with Bertie312, and see his "Wasteland Collection" where he as assembled 4 copies of EACH version ever printed, as well as each language it was printed in.
These fellows, as well as myself and others in the Eternal community have personally contributed to the SKYROCKETING of prices of these staples, because we need to feel better about ourselves for having 60+ copies of $50+ Cards...
Here is an example of what I mean, and why I believe cards like, specifically, Force of Will are $100+ This Might Make you Sick to your Stomach, Just a warning...
So, to get back OT, I think that the prices of cards are ridiculous, though I dont hear many people with these cards in abundance complaining...
Obviously just another form of Caste separation. Those who have stay silent, while being grateful they have, and those who do not, protesting something they have no power to change...
I'm sorry.
Obviously just another form of Caste separation. Those who have stay silent, while being grateful they have, and those who do not, protesting something they have no power to change...
I'm sorry.
what are you talking about? i move through playsets of FoW like what and i don't think rapidly escalating the cost of the format is a healthy thing.
There are many competitive decks that don't require FoW, or a playset of Wastelands. You can play affinity, belcher, enchantress, or dredge without either. Getting a playset of wastelands without forces allows you to build several competitive decks (rock, D&T, zoo, elves, gobs, etc.) too.
Affinity, Belcher, Enchantress, and Dredge are fringe, at best, decks. None of those are better than tier 2. They are not what a tournament scene would consider competitive.
All of the decks you mention don't play FoW. But every single one of them -- at least optimal builds of those decks -- are rife with additional costs added from dual land/s, high-end rares, and double-digit value uncommons. All of those cards are rapidly -- not as rapidly, mind you -- rising as well. Viktheslick covered this more in-depth in his response.
Force is a requirement if you want to play blue competitively, but I don't see how that's really any different than needing Jace to play blue competitively in standard right now.
Force of Will and Jace are required to play the most competitive decks in the respective formats they are a staple of. They are also staples of other highest-tier decks of those formats.
Can you provide an example of a situation where a previously-healthy format has died due to prices rising?
When has a format in Magic outright died to this point? The only example we collectively have as a point of reference for a format becoming unviable at large is Vintage, but Vintage was never a healthy format.
Bridge from Below - Dredge is a tier one deck, does some of the most unfair wins in all of magic, and for some reason is actually one of the cheapest decks to build. This card costs less than most of the standard playable rares, it can only go up as it is the core of the deck. I would probably lump the Grave troll in this list as well.
One of the main reasons Dredge cards do not move in value much is because Dredge is the only deck that plays all of them and, at the same time, its not popular. Only a handful of people play Dredge seriously and almost everyone else plays it because they can't afford anything better and are trying to build another deck while playing Dredge lightly. Maybe if a larger number of people played Dredge, it would cost more than $100.
I see this come up a lot in these threads. I'd like to clarify why reprints would help SCG and other stores.
Businesses make profit from 2 things, margin and volume. If a store buys FoW at $30 and sells at $60, they get $30 for each sale. When they cannot stock at these prices they have to either not sell any (volume = 0 : profit= 0) or raise buy prices to get stock so they have some volume to sell.
Raising buy prices without raising the sale price reduces the margin. If there is still more demand than they can accommodate, they will raise the sell price to slow demand. This reduces their volume but increases the margin again.
This continues up to where we are now at $60/$90. There is a balancing point where the number of people buying vs selling will be fairly equal.
Reprints can help this model by massively increasing volume. A reprint comes along from WoTC available to stores for $10 and they are able to sell at $20. The amount of people willing and able to pay $20 (vs $90) will be drastically higher and volume will more than enough to account for loss in margins.
In short, moving 4x the amount of product at 1/2x the margin is more money. Investing more capital into a product with a constant margin and volume also doesn't help businesses.
this is the exact thing i am saying. the only difference is that i'm not naive enough to think that i could charge virtually anything i want for a card on the day-of an event and not expect it to sell. the control the event they are selling at. when i say $infinity, i do not literally mean $infinity. clearly there is some limit to the amount of money they can charge (they can't charge $250 per copy). however, if the cap for the card is at or greater than $250, people will still buy it at $250. you don't know what the market will bear, but if i can sell a copy of a card on my website for $90 and have trouble keeping that card in stock, i can obviously also sell it on-site for $90 or more given the convenience of providing a copy of a card you don't have the day of an event you need that card for.
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Correct. The prices of Legacy staples have been artificially low for a while. Based on demand and rarity they should be 3-4x the price of Standard.
People who have been saying, why buy standard Legacy costs the same have been heard loud and clear, so now everyone wants in on the game.
If based on market principles Standard decks are $500 then $1500-$2000 for a Legacy deck shouldn't be that surprising.
Current Capt. of Team "Ju"
I play this:
Rotation is coming...
Modern: GGGSTOMPY
ZOO (Goyf-less)
Legacy:
Brewing
EDH:
Too many to name.
you're not playing the best deck if you're not playing a deck with duals or at least FoW in it.
the decks that have access to duals and/or force of will are just so much better than decks without them. even goblins, which you can very well build something resembling the best build of the deck without any duals or forces, needs access to that extra color of mana to have an optimal list and play cards you don't have access to in mono-red.
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I'm just saying that reaching the equilibrium point with regards to what the market will bear is not a bad thing. Kijin, I'm pretty sure you understand economic principles. I am just a little tired of the people coming on here to complain about the rising price of legacy because it means they can't afford to play it, and therefore it is unfair, ridiculous and should be changed or something.
--S
well, that's a problem all the same, whether it's just gape-mouthed complaining or well-examined analysis, people being priced out of the game isn't healthy for the game. legacy was quickly growing and now people being scared off by a combination of rapidly fluctuating and unstable prices as well as extremely and increasingly astronomical prices isn't going to help grow the format. when a format becomes stagnant and the entry cost is prohibitive, no matter how long the cards last for, people aren't going to join in. a slowing/lack of people joining in reduces tournament numbers and interest in the cards. interest waning means fewer events. fewer events means a dying/dead format.
those presumptions (which are not entirely presumptions -- we have enough people being vocal about how they're unable to play because they can't spend $90 on each card to optimize their deck) are more doomsaying than anything else, but it looks kind of grim to have this value explosion all at once and all of a sudden and only between weeks.
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Then again, I feel like all those standard only players should have listened to us earlier, ha! (just kidding...)
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
The only format I can think of ever being too cost-prohibitive is Vintage, and that's mostly due to the P9 requirement requiring an initial investment of several thousand dollars before even beginning to building a deck. That said, I've always favored a laissez-faire style of economic growth. The market will autocorrect on its own most/all of the time. If it gets priced out of the reach of most people, there will be fewer people buying it and the prices will autocorrect until it hits equilibrium anyway.
As long as the product is moving, there will be tournament support for it from the stores like SCG. If it slows or stagnates, they'll most likely adjust prices first. If they somehow universally kill interest in legacy (seems unlikely, but... maybe?) then people would need to start taking more drastic action. But that's still a ways off. I just take the rapid price fluctuation to mean that there's just more demand than supply right now.
--S
that isn't good for the format. prices and equilibrium are completely irrelevant if no one is playing the game and new people aren't signing up. you can't assume prices will adjust before demand does, because that's generally not how the magic market works, particularly with limited/rare issue commodities that require playset investment before you can even play the game.
as referenced in viktheslick's post above yours, $500 is the roughly bare minimum investment required for a new player who wants to play a 4 FoW, 4 Wasteland Legacy deck (there are many of these) -- this assumes the player has literally every other card in the maindeck and sideboard, assumes 0 fetch or dual lands need to be invested in, that they held onto all of their Aether Vials, Sensei's Divining Tops, or the like, and that they buy at this very second (because at the rate things are fluctuating at, who knows if tomorrow we won't see a sudden surge in Sorrow's Path?). and that's assuming many things before a single dollar is spent on cards. $500 is an entire very good standard deck -- it's roughly two complete Boros decks and maybe a few dollars shy of a complete UW Cawblade deck (fuzzy math has me at $475 without bargain hunting on Cawblade), and the latter has contents good across multiple formats that you can potentially ship to players of older formats before/after they rotate from standard. it is very easy, given that, to see how people can complain about being priced out of the format or see that this is where we may be headed.
we haven't gotten there yet. but it's an unstable time that i'm not the biggest fan of as a recent-in-the-relative-sense comer to legacy as a format.
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But it doesn't require a playset investment to be competitive at legacy. There are many competitive decks that don't require FoW, or a playset of Wastelands. You can play affinity, belcher, enchantress, or dredge without either. Getting a playset of wastelands without forces allows you to build several competitive decks (rock, D&T, zoo, elves, gobs, etc.) too.
Force is a requirement if you want to play blue competitively, but I don't see how that's really any different than needing Jace to play blue competitively in standard right now.
I don't see Force/Wasteland as being as big a prerequisite for the format like the moxen + lotus are for vintage. That said, with regards to the format... I don't think it'd be just like prices hitting a breaking point and all of a sudden everyone abandons the format forever. I'd think that the prices will rise until the format starts to lose popularity, then the prices will fall and the situation will autocorrect itself.
Can you provide an example of a situation where a previously-healthy format has died due to prices rising?
--S
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=487991
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10893911#post10893911
Tombstalkers used to run $12-ish, now it's $10
I never said you require a playset of those cards to be competitive either; certainly you can build competitive Legacy burn for cheap - even then though, the most competitive build runs 12x fetches. That's going to run you about 150 bucks. My point is that the price point has shifted tremendously - previously you could easily get a set of Wastelands for 80 and a set of Force for 150 on ebay. Now you would be VERY lucky to get two of each for the same 230 bucks. Can you not see how that would be detrimental?
Your example with Jace is valid; however it should be noted that most competitive players I know that can't afford a set of Jaces simply DON'T PLAY BLUE. Similarly if you want to build Goblins and can't afford a set of Wastelands and Ports (which again will be around 350 bucks at least now) then you might avoid entering the format altogether if you are a competitive player.
Come on, that is really a fallcious oversimplification. Rock requires 3x SDT, 4x Thoughtseize, 3x Mox Diamond, 4x Tarmogoyf, several lesser but sometimes difficult to acquire staple rares like Dark Confidant and Knight of the Reliquary, at least 5x duals, a Maze of Ith, a Karakas AND 8 fetches. Death and Taxes requires at least 3x Karakas and a set of Ports, along with 3x Stoneforge Mystic, a SoFi (which is 50 bucks now) and a Jitte. Zoo requires 6-7 duals, 10 fetches, 4x Goyf, a lot of 10 dollar rares (Hierarch in GSZ versions, GSZ itself, KotR, Lavamancer). Elves is fairly cheap but the full on combo version requires 4x Gaea's Cradle. I already mentioned Goblins and it's definitely NOT a cheap deck - in addition to the Wastelands you need a set of Ports, Vials, Lackeys, Piledrivers and lesser goblins. Oh did I mention duals and fetches if you splash for either color combination?
I mean, I understand your point but you are also ignoring the true, total cost of all of these decks. It is quite high for most if not all of them and not something easy to plunk down. Comparatively top tier RDW is like 180 with fetches but all of those cards are in-print and easier to trade for. Caw-Blade is expensive due to 3x Gideon, 4x Jace, 4x Mystic and even then is not impossible to trade for everything. Finding people who will willingly trade you into the Legacy format is getting rarer and rarer due to the price spiking.
I have plenty of FoW and Wastelands and though I need stuff for combo in Legacy (LEDs and such) I have literally NO incentive to move any of these extra for any reason since they just keep going up. I'm not even using all my FoWs and one of my friends offered 350 for a set last week, cash, and I turned him down - not to be cruel, just because I didn't need the money and wanted to hang on to them due to market fluctuation. My point is, even now getting into Legacy is not impossible but it is FAR more difficult to acquire all the cards reasonably for any top tier deck (and I mean ALL the cards).
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
Undervalued:
Plateau and Scrubland - Both of these seem to be dual land red headed stepchildren and for some reason tend to be 10-20 below the median for duals. Let's be honest though, Duals are Duals and always will be. I recently bought 2 plateaus for 35 a piece and 1 scrub for 40, all near mint. All these cards have at least a home, and legacy boros seems to be a real possibility in my eyes since the new block had red and white playing very nice together. Totally feel they have no where to go but up and are totally worth trading for or buying at going rate before they go up.
Bridge from Below - Dredge is a tier one deck, does some of the most unfair wins in all of magic, and for some reason is actually one of the cheapest decks to build. This card costs less than most of the standard playable rares, it can only go up as it is the core of the deck. I would probably lump the Grave troll in this list as well.
Overvalued:
Volcanic Island - I've seen this break 80 recently and go as high as 90. I understand it has blue on it, and it is a dual land so it should be valuable, but I can't really make out why. The decks that use it are not widespread from what i have seen in legacy, vintage is not such a force on the price market to make this jump. If you have them hold them, if you don't then hold off.
Candelabra of Tawnos - It's good in 1 deck that I know of, and that deck is pretty fringe and arguable if it's even better than the all instant version of high tide. Card is even risky now that steel sabotage is around as well as stifle, making a countered Candelabra a potential hard stop to your combo. Don't think cloudpost is going to jump in popularity either as its not a very strong build. This card is at the very top of its price point just because of scarcity but has no where to go but down.
Would love to see people contribute to this list. Note that this is not really meant to be purely based on price, as price is just a reflection of the cards rarity and play value, so those all need to be reflected in evaluating.
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The years have gone on and the world has turned, and money has become worth much less then it was. I dont think we can blame SCG for the price of Wasteland any more then we can blame the President for the value of a Dollar.
WE can blame Wizards of the Coast, or Hasbro (Their evil overlords...) just as much as we can blame AIG and the Leahman Brothers for the housing bubble and the rise of CDO's. However, they aren't truly at fault.
We must face reality, and the truth, and turn toward the mirror and point the finger where it belongs.
At ourselves.
WE, representing the Magic playing community, are at fault...
It is our greed, and our desire to play, regardless of the personal and financial cost, that make the prices of all these cards we ***** about so high.
Force of Will was a $5 card when it was an extended Staple, Wasteland was $1 on average, $2.5 if you found someone with a mint playset.
These cards werent expensive back in the day, then again, Black Lotus was $350 for a mint condition Unlimited Copy.
And we thought those prices were scary.
I recently paid $750 for my mint condition, double signed Black Lotus, off of feEbay.
And was so happy to find such a good deal, I didnt hesitate to click "Buy-it-Now".
I look at some of the "pimp" threads, at this site and others, and see fellows with 20+ Guru Islands, and then on MOTL, when I trade with Bertie312, and see his "Wasteland Collection" where he as assembled 4 copies of EACH version ever printed, as well as each language it was printed in.
These fellows, as well as myself and others in the Eternal community have personally contributed to the SKYROCKETING of prices of these staples, because we need to feel better about ourselves for having 60+ copies of $50+ Cards...
Here is an example of what I mean, and why I believe cards like, specifically, Force of Will are $100+
This Might Make you Sick to your Stomach, Just a warning...
So, to get back OT, I think that the prices of cards are ridiculous, though I dont hear many people with these cards in abundance complaining...
Obviously just another form of Caste separation. Those who have stay silent, while being grateful they have, and those who do not, protesting something they have no power to change...
I'm sorry.
no doubt it's good, but $50 good? I don't think so.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
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what are you talking about? i move through playsets of FoW like what and i don't think rapidly escalating the cost of the format is a healthy thing.
Affinity, Belcher, Enchantress, and Dredge are fringe, at best, decks. None of those are better than tier 2. They are not what a tournament scene would consider competitive.
All of the decks you mention don't play FoW. But every single one of them -- at least optimal builds of those decks -- are rife with additional costs added from dual land/s, high-end rares, and double-digit value uncommons. All of those cards are rapidly -- not as rapidly, mind you -- rising as well. Viktheslick covered this more in-depth in his response.
Force of Will and Jace are required to play the most competitive decks in the respective formats they are a staple of. They are also staples of other highest-tier decks of those formats.
When has a format in Magic outright died to this point? The only example we collectively have as a point of reference for a format becoming unviable at large is Vintage, but Vintage was never a healthy format.
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One of the main reasons Dredge cards do not move in value much is because Dredge is the only deck that plays all of them and, at the same time, its not popular. Only a handful of people play Dredge seriously and almost everyone else plays it because they can't afford anything better and are trying to build another deck while playing Dredge lightly. Maybe if a larger number of people played Dredge, it would cost more than $100.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))