Does anybody remember the B/W token deck that dominated standard (not for too long) back when Lorwyn was legal?
Well, this is my attempt of EDH version of the deck. I added some elements like LD and more hand disrruption. It has most of the key cards used back then, and It's missing others that would fit more in a 1 v 1 enviroment, like Tidehollow Sculler
@Donald:
I like the picks you suggested(Relly like Hallowed Burial). I already have Decree of Justice in the deck though. Are you counting Outpost as a spell?
About Stoneforge Mystic, I'd get as many Swords as i can. Bonehoard sounds interesting. About Nim Deathmantle and Deathrender...They don't work in a token-theme deck like this one. Just don't have enough creatures to abuse.If so, I could give the Mantle a try, but I'd rather have Swords and bash face. Day, Unmake, and Cloudgoat could be good cuts, but I think Captain of the watch has lots of potencial. I'll give a try first before taking her out.
Are there other ways to search for equipments besides Stoneforge Mystic and the Lowyn Giant(Forgot the name now)???
@Wildfire393:
If you notice Nether Traitor is in my Bench, wich means that He is very close to be put in. I'm not sure what to cut yet. Reassembling Skeleton is very usefull for multiple sac outlets...I havent forgotten about him, I just want to feel if it's needed it before I put it in. It feels that i already have enought token makers.
How about the land section? I want to put in Kor Haven and Phyrexian Tower and/or High Market but I dont want to screw too much the mana base. Getting WWBB could be hard sometimes.
Must have missed the Decree the first look through. I count Kjeldoran Outpost as a spell since it destroys one of your lands and if you aren't making any tokens with it it is pretty bad so it plays out a lot like a really hard to kill enchantment spell. Just running a couple Swords and Skullclamp seems just fine for Stoneforge. I wouldn't do more than that and would skip the giant because of how slow he is. You have black tutors too if you need them. Of the lands you mentioned I would skip Phyrexian Tower and High Market since you have your general as a sac outlet already and they aren't needed. Kor Haven seems fine but I'd be careful running any more colorless producing lands than that.
Must have missed the Decree the first look through. I count Kjeldoran Outpost as a spell since it destroys one of your lands and if you aren't making any tokens with it it is pretty bad so it plays out a lot like a really hard to kill enchantment spell. Just running a couple Swords and Skullclamp seems just fine for Stoneforge. I wouldn't do more than that and would skip the giant because of how slow he is. You have black tutors too if you need them. Of the lands you mentioned I would skip Phyrexian Tower and High Market since you have your general as a sac outlet already and they aren't needed. Kor Haven seems fine but I'd be careful running any more colorless producing lands than that.
You right about Phyrexian Tower and High Market but the extra mana from the Tower is nice sometimes.But I don't see nothing in the deck that I want to ramp into...But again, After Armagedon effects...If I follow up with this land, It can easily push me foward in front of everybody.
For similar reasons I cut Cabal Coffers. I just don't find aything I want to ramp into...and Having it online is risky and a hard task to pull sometimes.
So, I decided to try the Stoneforge Mystic package...
IN:
I don't know if I'm runnig the right Equipment package(maybe different swords?)
Light and Shadow recurs creatures, and i dont run that many, and the Body and Mind is kinda weak in EDH...so...I could be missing Loxodon Warhammer maybe.
I also feel that I'm missing a Mana artifact...Besides the ones I'm running, what other options do I have to add to the list?
Not sure on the Stoneforge package. I think Bonehoard is a good one but after that the Swords seem about equal but I think I would only run one to give you some variety in your toolbox. Probably just have to try them out and see how it goes. Hopefully the next set has a good living weapon or the R/W sword is really good. The manafact is tough since you already have the best ones...maybe Guardian Idol or Coldsteel Heart?
There are more "ins" than Outs beause i was missig some cards in the original list anyways.
My doubts are about the equipment count and choices. Any suggestions on this? Also my bench is preatty good...but Im not sure what to take out at this moment. Any suggestions on this too?
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Elesh - Yes, Highly Recommended
Queller - Kinda slow, kinda hit'n'miss. I ran it in several builds and took it out. Not horrible though.
Liege - I've gone back & forth on him a LOT. He's good, not amazing, but fact is, he will wreck somebody if he sticks for long.
GCO is my favorite commander, but I'm surprised you're not using Teysa, Orzhov Scion. She works so well with tokens.
Vindicate is always a consideration, but $pricey Command Tower can help with the mana base.
I noticed just a few cards dedicated to making opponents discard. In multiplayer, it's so hard to adequately control hands like that and there's nothing else I spotted that profits from it. I think you could easily free up a couple card slots there and make much better use of the space.
Elesh - Yes, Highly Recommended
Queller - Kinda slow, kinda hit'n'miss. I ran it in several builds and took it out. Not horrible though.
Liege - I've gone back & forth on him a LOT. He's good, not amazing, but fact is, he will wreck somebody if he sticks for long.
GCO is my favorite commander, but I'm surprised you're not using Teysa, Orzhov Scion. She works so well with tokens.
Vindicate is always a consideration, but $pricey Command Tower can help with the mana base.
I noticed just a few cards dedicated to making opponents discard. In multiplayer, it's so hard to adequately control hands like that and there's nothing else I spotted that profits from it. I think you could easily free up a couple card slots there and make much better use of the space.
Yeah, It tought so about Elesh. I have to get one.
Queller was just IF i added Martyr's Bond. I'm going to give the Liege one more go to have a final verdict.
Teysa...hmm, I had it before, but sometimes i felt that if my idea wasn't to make combo with her, She was just too much redundancy.
About Yawmoth's Will , well, I know it's a really good card but it's most efective if you can generate tons of mana. Like in a MonoBlack.
I already have Vindicate. And as soon as i can get a Tower i'll add it for sure.
They have been really good for me...I knew the Myojin and the Hypnotis were good, but the best surprise was Larceny. With bunch of tokens this card is devasatating.
After going through New Phyrexia and M12 I notice that are some cards that i can use to upgrade the deck...(There are some that are obvious better than others)
Have you thought about adding in Martyr's Bond? Seems like it could be really strong here, maybe cut Angel of Despair for it. You really need to get a Land Tax for this deck.
I was going to put in Martyr's Bond but I wasnt sure If I also needed to add cards to help it...like Claws of Gix...do you think it's good enough on its own? I want to be able to hei more than creatures.
@Xozzen
I agree with you on the power level of the Angel of Despair but I think Donald has a valid point too. This deck has tons of creature removal and It handles Artifacts and enchantments fairly well. She is a great addition but not indispensable.
Also, Marty's Bond will do almost "the same" fuction as the Angel, I think. It's hard to let the Angel go.
I was going to put in Martyr's Bond but I wasnt sure If I also needed to add cards to help it...like Claws of Gix...do you think it's good enough on its own? I want to be able to hei more than creatures.
I think so, you play Gravepact after all. In this case I'd say the increased cost is worth the versatility. The angel is just an expensive Vindicate and can't impact the board early.
I think so, you play Gravepact after all. In this case I'd say the increased cost is worth the versatility. The angel is just an expensive Vindicate and can't impact the board early.
AUTO BUMP...to share my concern about a major change...suggestions very welcome...
Now that the deck is where I want it...(few improvements are allways welcome) Im doubting if Ghost Council is the right General for this deck. Maybe Teysa would be more apropiate for the focus (theme) of the deck...wich is heavy token with LD and hand disruption. Almost no reanimation.
AUTO BUMP...to share my concern about a major change...suggestions very welcome...
Now that the deck is where I want it...(few improvements are allways welcome) Im doubting if Ghost Council is the right General for this deck. Maybe Teysa would be more apropiate for the focus (theme) of the deck...wich is heavy token with LD and hand disruption. Almost no reanimation.
I'm actually thinking a big finisher as a commander would be more useful since Teysa is just doing what the rest of the deck already does well which is making tokens and killing dorks. Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter provides great board presence for your mass LD but you'd need to overhaul the deck a bit to use him. I tend to shy away from expensive commanders but having played against this deck I'd say the engines are running just fine but the actual finishing power of the deck is a little lacking. Also going through this list I'd look for a card to replace Ajani Goldmane, if you stick with Fantasma I'd just throw Teysa in the deck and see how she does.
I already played the deck with the updates and I'm very happy how the deck performed. It felt like It could reach good board presence and It can recover very fast after wraths effects.
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Well, this is my attempt of EDH version of the deck. I added some elements like LD and more hand disrruption. It has most of the key cards used back then, and It's missing others that would fit more in a 1 v 1 enviroment, like Tidehollow Sculler
And here is the list:
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
1 Bloodghast
1 Bitterblossom
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Lingering Souls
1 Spectral Procession
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Promise of Bunrei
1 Mobilization
1 Knight-Captain of Eos
1 Elspeth Tirel
1 Increasing Devotion
1 Decree of Justice
Token Toys
1 Windbrisk Heights
1 Mirror Entity
1 Hecatomb
1 Helm of Possession
1 Sorin, Lord of Inestrad
What Hand?
1 Larceny
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Myojin of Night's Reach
What Lands?
1 Armagedon
1 Catastrophe
1 Desolation Angel
Tresure Hunting
1 Sun Titan
Can’t Touch Me
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshare
1 Martyr's Cause
1 Karmic Justice
1 Sudden Death
1 Vindicate
1 Attrition
1 Archon of Justice
1 Hallowed Burial
1 Grave Pact
1 Return to Dust
1 Austere Command
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elsh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Expedition map
1 Sensei's Divining top
1 Skullclamp
1 Enlightened tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Necropotence
1 Academy Rector
Mana
1 Sol Ring
1 Land Tax
1 Wayfare’s Baubble
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Mind Stone
1 Coalition Relic
1 Darksteel Ingot
Lands(39)
10 Plains
10 Swamps
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
1 Fetid Heath
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Tainted field
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Command Tower
1 Vivid Meadow
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Thawing Glacier
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Kor Haven
1 Temple of the False God
1 Strip mine
1 Windbrisk Heights
EDIT: Last update on post #23
Gives you more removal and some good token makers. The Stoneforge Mystic package is interesting, since you already have Skullclamp you probably just need a couple more targets for it. Swords of X and Y, Bonehoard or maybe something a little more interesting like Deathrender or Nim Deathmantle. You could make room by cutting Day of Judgment, Unmake and one of the weaker token makers like Cloudgoat Ranger or Captain of the Watch.
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I like the picks you suggested(Relly like Hallowed Burial). I already have Decree of Justice in the deck though. Are you counting Outpost as a spell?
About Stoneforge Mystic, I'd get as many Swords as i can. Bonehoard sounds interesting. About Nim Deathmantle and Deathrender...They don't work in a token-theme deck like this one. Just don't have enough creatures to abuse.If so, I could give the Mantle a try, but I'd rather have Swords and bash face. Day, Unmake, and Cloudgoat could be good cuts, but I think Captain of the watch has lots of potencial. I'll give a try first before taking her out.
Are there other ways to search for equipments besides Stoneforge Mystic and the Lowyn Giant(Forgot the name now)???
@Wildfire393:
If you notice Nether Traitor is in my Bench, wich means that He is very close to be put in. I'm not sure what to cut yet. Reassembling Skeleton is very usefull for multiple sac outlets...I havent forgotten about him, I just want to feel if it's needed it before I put it in. It feels that i already have enought token makers.
How about the land section? I want to put in Kor Haven and Phyrexian Tower and/or High Market but I dont want to screw too much the mana base. Getting WWBB could be hard sometimes.
You right about Phyrexian Tower and High Market but the extra mana from the Tower is nice sometimes.But I don't see nothing in the deck that I want to ramp into...But again, After Armagedon effects...If I follow up with this land, It can easily push me foward in front of everybody.
For similar reasons I cut Cabal Coffers. I just don't find aything I want to ramp into...and Having it online is risky and a hard task to pull sometimes.
So, I decided to try the Stoneforge Mystic package...
IN:
OUTS:
I don't know if I'm runnig the right Equipment package(maybe different swords?)
Light and Shadow recurs creatures, and i dont run that many, and the Body and Mind is kinda weak in EDH...so...I could be missing Loxodon Warhammer maybe.
I also feel that I'm missing a Mana artifact...Besides the ones I'm running, what other options do I have to add to the list?
Out:
In:
There are more "ins" than Outs beause i was missig some cards in the original list anyways.
My doubts are about the equipment count and choices. Any suggestions on this? Also my bench is preatty good...but Im not sure what to take out at this moment. Any suggestions on this too?
Bench:
And some other equipments like I mentioned above.
That is a very interestnig card.Thanks for pointing it out.
Elesh Norn and Martyr's Bond look like they can fit weel for this deck. Maybe World Queller or Claws of Gixto go with the Bond?
Im skeptical about two cards in my list:
Anybody has experienced with these guys in a similar built?
Queller - Kinda slow, kinda hit'n'miss. I ran it in several builds and took it out. Not horrible though.
Liege - I've gone back & forth on him a LOT. He's good, not amazing, but fact is, he will wreck somebody if he sticks for long.
GCO is my favorite commander, but I'm surprised you're not using Teysa, Orzhov Scion. She works so well with tokens.
Yawgmoth's Will and Profane Command can be amazing in here.
Vindicate is always a consideration, but $pricey
Command Tower can help with the mana base.
I noticed just a few cards dedicated to making opponents discard. In multiplayer, it's so hard to adequately control hands like that and there's nothing else I spotted that profits from it. I think you could easily free up a couple card slots there and make much better use of the space.
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BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Yeah, It tought so about Elesh. I have to get one.
Queller was just IF i added Martyr's Bond. I'm going to give the Liege one more go to have a final verdict.
Teysa...hmm, I had it before, but sometimes i felt that if my idea wasn't to make combo with her, She was just too much redundancy.
About Yawmoth's Will , well, I know it's a really good card but it's most efective if you can generate tons of mana. Like in a MonoBlack.
I already have Vindicate. And as soon as i can get a Tower i'll add it for sure.
About the discard spells, I only have three:
They have been really good for me...I knew the Myojin and the Hypnotis were good, but the best surprise was Larceny. With bunch of tokens this card is devasatating.
The cards that Im not completely happy with and could be replace for the right call are:
If you have any other suggestion please feel free to note!
@Donald:
Yes, Land Tax would be really nice!
I was going to put in Martyr's Bond but I wasnt sure If I also needed to add cards to help it...like Claws of Gix...do you think it's good enough on its own? I want to be able to hei more than creatures.
@Xozzen
I agree with you on the power level of the Angel of Despair but I think Donald has a valid point too. This deck has tons of creature removal and It handles Artifacts and enchantments fairly well. She is a great addition but not indispensable.
Also, Marty's Bond will do almost "the same" fuction as the Angel, I think. It's hard to let the Angel go.
I think so, you play Gravepact after all. In this case I'd say the increased cost is worth the versatility. The angel is just an expensive Vindicate and can't impact the board early.
If Im adding Martyr's Bond I have to add Claws of Gix to hit everything else besides creatures.
What other card can I add besides the Claws?
I wouldn't try to put in support for it, think of it like Gravepact + Karmic Justice.
Gotcha!....Besides, I don't think I run that many Artifacs and Enchantments...wait, maybe yes.
The new Lili is very good. Don't know if for this deck, or a Rock-style Nath deck.
Now that the deck is where I want it...(few improvements are allways welcome) Im doubting if Ghost Council is the right General for this deck. Maybe Teysa would be more apropiate for the focus (theme) of the deck...wich is heavy token with LD and hand disruption. Almost no reanimation.
I'm actually thinking a big finisher as a commander would be more useful since Teysa is just doing what the rest of the deck already does well which is making tokens and killing dorks. Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter provides great board presence for your mass LD but you'd need to overhaul the deck a bit to use him. I tend to shy away from expensive commanders but having played against this deck I'd say the engines are running just fine but the actual finishing power of the deck is a little lacking. Also going through this list I'd look for a card to replace Ajani Goldmane, if you stick with Fantasma I'd just throw Teysa in the deck and see how she does.
added:
Other cards that I might give them a try:
The cuts could be:
- Debtor's Knell
- Sudden Death
- Mobilization
or Myojin of the Night ReachI already played the deck with the updates and I'm very happy how the deck performed. It felt like It could reach good board presence and It can recover very fast after wraths effects.