Ok I have had trouble building a vultron commander deck because I am always reminded that my opponents can tuck creatures. I like Wydwen as she has flying, flash, and can bounce to hand on her own. She allows for a bit of a control deck that can run some equipment for our general. I used to run Thraximundar but due to how slow he was coming out I wanted something a bit faster.
**I am building this deck to kill through general damage. It would be best classified as a control deck though is what I am going for.
My list sounds like more of what your are going for if you want to go the hard control route. I cut the creatures back to an absolute bare minimum, I run very few expensive sorcery speed cards, lots of instants and counters and win through general damage. You'll also fine some nice tech like Hatred and Sunder. It would be easier for you to go through my list and ask questions about certain cards than for me to suggest half my decklist so if anything looks odd feel free to ask why I play it.
but seriously, there is a reason you run a general with flash, it's so you can play draw-go. you can't do that with all those sorceries and creatures eh?
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Cockatrice Alias: Knullset
My Current EDH Decks WUBRG Lorwyn Block Horde of Notions WUBRG UG Momir Vig Glimpse Combo UG UW "Rasputin Dreamcrusher" Control UW
Ok... I cut a ton of stuff from my list and now I am short a lot of cards. I will fill in a lot of it with counterspells, card draw, and kill in all likelihood. Suggestions are welcome.
Anyone have any feelings on Time Spiral in this deck? It is sorcery speed but it untaps the lands it takes to cast so its cool like that. I don't entirely know how I feel about filling up my opponent's hands though which is one thing I sort of question.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Some awesome counters: Dismiss card advantage counters are awesome. Dissipate for all your exiling needs Overwhelming Instinct is good if you play in a bomby creature meta. Rewind the classic "free" counter
edit: Question how often do you find yourself lacking equipment. You don't really have anyway to search for your equips (other than the two black tutors) I would think 3 general damage per turn isn't going to cut the mustard, if you will.
At least in my group I found Rewind to be awful. It actually costs 4 mana and even though it does allow you to untap mana after it resolves people can respond while you are tapped out and it is just terrible at winning counter wars and when I lose counter wars I probably die. Dissipate I think is simply a bad card. I've played with it a lot in the past but it is so often Cancel I think it is better to just run something that has a more consistent upside. Dismiss is ok as a bad Cryptic Command but it is 4 mana to counter a spell which is a lot for a fairly minimal upside in a deck that runs the 2 best card drawing colors. Overwhelming Intellect probably is good in timmy creature heavy metas because the upside on that one can be huge despite it being both expensive and narrow.
Alright, I have been updating my list as best I can. I did have a small discussion about equipment options and I chose to run 5 equipment. I went back and forth on running Grafted Exoskeleton for a while and decided against it at the last moment as it is a pain in the ass when I am half way through killing someone and I draw it, or if I hit an opponent once and it gets hit by a Krosan Grip. I finally picked the 5th piece of equipment Grafted Wargear based on the fact that it costs nothing to equip and it can boost my general up large enough to take down some good sized creatures.
I tried building the list as best I could. I cut out a few of the counterspells. Currently I am trying to fit another 1-2 instant speed kill spells into the deck as well.
I am sort of questioning Gilded Drake a bit more of late considering it is a 3 powered flyer which could give my general some issues. I might just end up running a kill spell in its place.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I really like how your list is coming along, you've got some cool things going on in here. The one area that I think could be improved is the manabase. Manlands are fantastic in this deck as they serve double duty as defense in deterring attacks and offense by swinging with equipment. The 3 I use are:
Spawning Pool - Probably the best one because he can chump block and regenerate which can deter a surprising number of creatures from attacking you. You'll probably have mana up so most people won't even bother swinging into you so you hardly ever have to activate him. Just leave him untapped with 1B up and you're set.
Creeping Tar Pit - This one is more offensive that Spawning Pool but it fixes your mana and is unblockable which is great with equipment. I don't swing with it very often since I like to leave my mana untapped but once you get down to a 1v1 situation, it is the super late game and you have a ton of mana or you have Sword of Feast and Famine in play this guy is a champ.
Inkmoth Nexus - You don't have Strata Scythe but even with an Empyrial Plate this thing can potentially kill people in one swing or in multiple swings with a sword. He can also deter attackers because any creature he blocks ends up with a -1/-1 counter and a few creatures like Woodfall Primus will just not attack you.
Faerie Conclave is another option and Mutavault would work nicely with Mistbind Clique and possibly Riptide Laboratory. Also even with so few Wizards Riptide Laboratory is a very important cards because it lets you abuse Trinket Mage, Venser, Shaper Savant and Vendilion Clique which can really tear up someone's hand if repeatedly bounced. I've also had odd situations where Linvala was in play or I just didn't want to pay 1 life so I used it to bounce my general. You can also lock someone out of the game with Mistbind Clique.
Spawning Pool - Probably the best one because he can chump block and regenerate which can deter a surprising number of creatures from attacking you. You'll probably have mana up so most people won't even bother swinging into you so you hardly ever have to activate him. Just leave him untapped with 1B up and you're set.
I never thought about being able to tap Spawning Pool to activate it's own regeneration. I've never played it in a deck but that interaction makes it so much better in my eyes. The more you know!
I really like how your list is coming along, you've got some cool things going on in here. The one area that I think could be improved is the manabase. Manlands are fantastic in this deck as they serve double duty as defense in deterring attacks and offense by swinging with equipment. The 3 I use are:
Spawning Pool - Probably the best one because he can chump block and regenerate which can deter a surprising number of creatures from attacking you. You'll probably have mana up so most people won't even bother swinging into you so you hardly ever have to activate him. Just leave him untapped with 1B up and you're set.
Creeping Tar Pit - This one is more offensive that Spawning Pool but it fixes your mana and is unblockable which is great with equipment. I don't swing with it very often since I like to leave my mana untapped but once you get down to a 1v1 situation, it is the super late game and you have a ton of mana or you have Sword of Feast and Famine in play this guy is a champ.
Inkmoth Nexus - You don't have Strata Scythe but even with an Empyrial Plate this thing can potentially kill people in one swing or in multiple swings with a sword. He can also deter attackers because any creature he blocks ends up with a -1/-1 counter and a few creatures like Woodfall Primus will just not attack you.
Faerie Conclave is another option and Mutavault would work nicely with Mistbind Clique and possibly Riptide Laboratory. Also even with so few Wizards Riptide Laboratory is a very important cards because it lets you abuse Trinket Mage, Venser, Shaper Savant and Vendilion Clique which can really tear up someone's hand if repeatedly bounced. I've also had odd situations where Linvala was in play or I just didn't want to pay 1 life so I used it to bounce my general. You can also lock someone out of the game with Mistbind Clique.
I had actually been looking at the Inkmoth Nexus for the deck. I hadn't really though about Spawning Pool before but now that you point it out it would make for a nice little blocking regenerator. The tar pit is one of the few that I am not too impressed by. Yes you can swing in with it late in the game but dont you usually have your general to carry the equipment? I would hate to tap down all that mana to swing with a manland, plus there is the fact that it is another comes in tapped land which is super annoying.
I think I will probably end up adding the Inkmoth Nexus and the Spawning Pool. I think I will pass on the Conclave and Mutavalt for now and see how the Mistbind pans out and any issues I have with it before I consider adding manlands for its championing. I do have 2 Mutavalts that I am not using but I dont like adding more colorless mana than absolutely neccesary to a deck.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
OOOOOOOOK I ended up playing out a game last night which was actually very very fun using this deck. I am a bit surprised how it ended up. We were playing a 6 player attack left game of EDH (my playgroup loves a point based attack left for some reason...) I happened to be attacking Teysa, Orzhov Scion who managed a turn 2 Bitterblossom.... damn my luck. And I am being attacked by Mayael the Anima extreme big fatty agro... again damn my luck.
Surprisingly the Mayael deck had mana issues and I managed to fight him off defensivly using my general with two swords on her and both mazes which I randomly drew into thank god. I couldnt attack like at all all game due to the damn farie token production that stuck the entire game.... really super lame. I finally executed him after putting both swords on Wydwen + Empyrial Plate and he happened to have only black blockers at the time. I then dropped a Time Warp and finished him off. It was very very nice
I almost lost the game at the very end when Scion of the Ur-Dragon dropped a Time Stretch on me when I had little to nothing to deal with it... He actually would have killed me if not for my 2 counters on the Jite I managed to gain 4 life going up to 4, I spun my top and peeked a damnation at the bottom thank god I dropped it and he conceded
Some feedback of the game I got for the deck: Ancestral Vision this card seems like it could be very sick if I drew it in the first like 1-5 turns. Beyond that it is too slow to matter. I got stuck with it way late in the game and it was like drawing a blank card >_< I think this needs to go out for some other card draw. Instant speed would be prefurable. I have lots of options as I own most of the blue card draw.
Barter in Blood this card is sooooooooo amazing in like 90% of decks. I found it very painful and it sat in my hand alll game. Flying tokens just destroy the ☺☺☺☺ out of me so I might have to change this to some sort of -/- effect. One that is at instant speed would be great of course but I dont know if that is an option.
Overwhelming Intellect This sat in my hand all game. I think I had more success with it in my teferi deck becaus it ran a lot more big mana stones and generally had more mana avalible at all times. I find using up 6 mana to be difficult in this deck. There was only like 2-3 times in the entire game that I could have even cast this and it was on meh creatures most of the time. The other times I was tapped out. I will probably keep it in for now but it is on my radar as a problematic card in the deck.
Time Warp holy crap this was worth its weight in gold. The second an opponent you need to die has an opening in his defenses you just wack them twice with your general. I am considering a few more options for extra turn spells. I run in a counterspell light meta though so this could just be good in my meta but I had amazing success with this.
Grim Monolith I ran this at the last second to see how it would work out in the deck. I regretted it like all game. I just cant afford to pay mana to have mana. I would have been a lot faster off the bat if this had just been another 2 mana stone.
Reins of Power This totally saved my ass. Very handy as I stalled out one of the final attacks that would have ended up killing me when Scion used his Time Stretch.
Desertion stealing a creature doesnt do much for me other than give me a blocker. I like it as I can steal a general with this which is hilarious but unless it is a very troublesome general like Uril, the Miststalker I dont care much. I ran it as an Arcane Denial yesterday which I never drew but I will keep this one on the fence for now. It might come back in and it might stay out.
Misdirection due to cost I ran this as a Redirect. I honestly think I might like Redirect more in the deck. I didnt draw it but I dont like giving up cards for 2 mana. The cost of 5 mana when I dont want to give up the card seems like too much. I will stick it as a Redirect for now.
Twincast ohhh man this one was fun. I ended up copying a Tooth and Nail grabbing out my trinket mage + Myojin into hand. I love having this in the deck just in case I want to tutor into it or in case someone drops something lame like a Time Stretch. It was soooo worth it.
Mistbind Clique I actually had some trouble with this card. I considered it once or twice while tutoring and using tooth and nail but I always found it sort of suboptimal. It might end up getting cut yet as in multiplayer I just cant figure out when the right time to drop it would end up being.
All is Dust Seeing how much trouble Bitterblossom gave me I am considering a second solution for problematic stuff like this. All is dust is slow and at sorcery speed but it really takes out a lot of problems. I dont know if it will make it in but man I was thinking about it yesterday.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Some feedback of the game I got for the deck: Ancestral Vision this card seems like it could be very sick if I drew it in the first like 1-5 turns. Beyond that it is too slow to matter. I got stuck with it way late in the game and it was like drawing a blank card >_< I think this needs to go out for some other card draw. Instant speed would be prefurable. I have lots of options as I own most of the blue card draw. You should definitely play Blue Sun's Zenith in here.After that the best options for card draw are Skeletal Scrying and Necropotence however these will also require you to run some lifegain to help offset the cost. I use Suffer the Past and Elixir of Immortality for this however I have also tried Ivory Tower in the past and it can be quite good and lets you set up Ivory Tower + Necropotence + Reliquary Tower which has got me hundreds of life in some games.Lastly I've also had good experiences with Opportunity if you want to avoid the lifeloss card drawing options.
Barter in Blood this card is sooooooooo amazing in like 90% of decks. I found it very painful and it sat in my hand alll game. Flying tokens just destroy the ☺☺☺☺ out of me so I might have to change this to some sort of -/- effect. One that is at instant speed would be great of course but I dont know if that is an option. I've strongly considered running Decree of Pain in here, not for the hard cast option but more as an instant speed Infest. Alternatively you could try Turnabout which is a very flexible card that can also tap down blockers if need be. Also keep in mind that you have Memory Plunder as a tutor target which can often be used as an instant speed sweeper.
Overwhelming Intellect This sat in my hand all game. I think I had more success with it in my teferi deck becaus it ran a lot more big mana stones and generally had more mana avalible at all times. I find using up 6 mana to be difficult in this deck. There was only like 2-3 times in the entire game that I could have even cast this and it was on meh creatures most of the time. The other times I was tapped out. I will probably keep it in for now but it is on my radar as a problematic card in the deck. I'm not a very big fan of this card because it is not only expensive but also narrow and we are in the 2 best card drawing colors so it is not really needed. Arcane Denial and plain old Counterspell are both solid replacement options.
Time Warp holy crap this was worth its weight in gold. The second an opponent you need to die has an opening in his defenses you just wack them twice with your general. I am considering a few more options for extra turn spells. I run in a counterspell light meta though so this could just be good in my meta but I had amazing success with this. I tend to avoid the Time Warp effects in my group but it sounds like this thing was great for you. The portal Time Warp cards are strictly better if you can get them since they don't target. Time Stretch is risky but in a counter light meta it could be too powerful to pass up.
Grim Monolith I ran this at the last second to see how it would work out in the deck. I regretted it like all game. I just cant afford to pay mana to have mana. I would have been a lot faster off the bat if this had just been another 2 mana stone. Talisman of Dominance is great if you decide to cut Monolith.
Reins of Power This totally saved my ass. Very handy as I stalled out one of the final attacks that would have ended up killing me when Scion used his Time Stretch. This card is so good because you run so few creatures and can even bounce you general back to hand before you cast it making it even more ridiculous. Stealing Eldrazi Titans feels really good.
Desertion stealing a creature doesnt do much for me other than give me a blocker. I like it as I can steal a general with this which is hilarious but unless it is a very troublesome general like Uril, the Miststalker I dont care much. I ran it as an Arcane Denial yesterday which I never drew but I will keep this one on the fence for now. It might come back in and it might stay out. Part of the reason I don't run many theft effects is that this deck doesn't usually win by random creature beatdown so stealing your opponents guys doesn't fit the strategy very well. Usually I'd rather just kill guys than pay significantly more mana to steal them.
Misdirection due to cost I ran this as a Redirect. I honestly think I might like Redirect more in the deck. I didnt draw it but I dont like giving up cards for 2 mana. The cost of 5 mana when I dont want to give up the card seems like too much. I will stick it as a Redirect for now. If you add in more of the card draw suggested above Misdirection becomes less painful to cast and I really like it as a tutor option for my toolbox. Redirect is very close behind it though so I don't think it's a bad option at all.
Twincast ohhh man this one was fun. I ended up copying a Tooth and Nail grabbing out my trinket mage + Myojin into hand. I love having this in the deck just in case I want to tutor into it or in case someone drops something lame like a Time Stretch. It was soooo worth it. I think I will give this card a try. It seems like a great tutor target and can help in counter battles.
Mistbind Clique I actually had some trouble with this card. I considered it once or twice while tutoring and using tooth and nail but I always found it sort of suboptimal. It might end up getting cut yet as in multiplayer I just cant figure out when the right time to drop it would end up being. Never tried this guy out so can't say too much. Your general can already protect itself so I can see this being useful mostly as a lock card with Riptide Laboratory.
All is Dust Seeing how much trouble Bitterblossom gave me I am considering a second solution for problematic stuff like this. All is dust is slow and at sorcery speed but it really takes out a lot of problems. I dont know if it will make it in but man I was thinking about it yesterday. I run Wipe Away for some extra bounce but you might also be able to use Wash Out. Wasn't very impressed with Wash Out though. Nevinyrral's Disk is also an option since the deck doesn't play that many permanents.
Hummmm so I have been considering a few cards making some change. Here is what I have so far:
IN Spinal Embrace a fun little card I used to run in Thraximundar. It isnt cheap but it solves any non shroud creature plus gives some life. It can be used while being attacked to set up a 2 for 1 where you steal the largest threat on the board and block off the second largest threat on the board. You get a bit of lifegain to boot on the end of it.
Counterspell this is coming in for one of the bigger counterspells I cam currently running. The efficiency of it just makes it worth running.
Arcane Denial also coming in for one of the larger counterspells.
Redirect in for misdirect due to its lower casting cost.
Echoing Truth I like it due to its ability to just completely destroy a token army. Sadly it will only remove one type of token but it still seems like a good option.
Blue Sun's Zenith Big card draw + shuffle back in. This was going to be Stroke of Genius due to the less blue mana in the initial cost but I think the shuffle back in is better. If I need it again I can go tutor it up.
Keep Watch this was going to be Stroke of Genius but I decided that if I need that sort of effect I will tutor it up. I want to try this card out for a bit and see how often I can get 4+ cards off this. If I run into problems with not being able to cast it effectively very often I will swap it out for Stroke but for now I would love to see how it runs.
OUT
Pact of Negation I didn't end up drawing it the other day but it just doesn't feel like a valid replacement for Force of Will... God I need to get my hands on one of them. I like how it costs me nothing to cast but I wish it was optional to pay the mana before my next upkeep as there are times where I will have plenty of mana open for a counter and just end up with only this in hand thus blowing my mana for next turn...
Relic of Progenitus I know it is normal to run grave hate these days but I dont feel it is always manditory. I ended up deciding that this wasnt a must have in my current meta. If I had more people using recursion combo style decks like Sharuum I might have to put this back in.
Misdirection this is being replaced by Redirect in part due to the cost to obtain and in part due to I dont feel I need the utility of being able to cast it for free instead of paying 2 mana for it.
Overwhelming Intellect got stuck in hand the other day. It also ended up kicking me in the nuts that this is creature counter only or I could have stopped that damn Time Stretch that almost wiped me off the board.
Mistbind Clique I have too few targets for it to champion. It is annoying to champion my commander with. It also seems like it would only be relivant in finishing off the final 1-2 players as even when it is being abused by the wizard bounce land it can only lock down one person at a time.
Ancestral Vision ended up being a bad draw into later in the game. I would rather this just be a solid card drawer.
Barter in Blood not a bad card but tokens are what are giving me issues. It could see play again in the future but for now it is going out for the Thevery which can solve whatever problem I am having.
EDIT: Ok I managed to level out the number of cards going in and out finally. It was tough as I had another 4 or so cards I wanted to jam in there. I would love some input on the changes I am suggesting. I will try to get some more test games in this weekend and see how it does.
Hummmm.... After counting the number of cards in my deck I realize that I am like 2 cards short. I will have to see if I am missing anything substantial... Suggestions would be nice. Otherwise I suppose I could add Stroke of Genius for one of them.
If it won't cause people to blindly swing on you I can very highly recommend that you try out Telepathy. I know you aren't a fan of it but I can't recall very many games at all that I lost with Telepathy in play.
Hummm I had 2 cards that sort of stood out as some different cards I hadnt originally thought of running:
Teferi's Response I know this seems like a bit of a narrow card. That game I had just the other day, by the end of the game both of my mazes had been stripped by different effects. Everyone in my meta runs land stripping in a number of different forms. This stops it and draws me 2 cards. Plus if it was a Terastodon for instance that targeted my land I get to blow him up and stop all his nonsense. Woodfall Primus.... well I get to draw 2 and pop him into his persist. Any thoughts on this? Is it too narrow to run?
Bitterblossom it will slowly drain me of life but seriously having all those tokens to fight off attackers or just swarm in sounds like it could be some serious fighting power and dissuasion. I like how it comes down for little mana and it ends up costing no mana to do every turn.
Grafted Wargear -> Sword of Vengeance I have been having issues with tokens. Giving my general vigilance, first strike, and trample on top of the 2 power pump sounds great. I can defend myself better having her around and I can push through the small crap. I like the wargear I just dont see it making or breaking my assault. I can see the Sword making the difference though.
Any thoughts on these options?
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I had given up on this deck for a little bit and I dont really know why... Anyways I want to come back to this deck and get it rolling again.
I thought I would touch on a few cards quickly that I felt could be considered for being cut. Some possible adds as well and we will see where this goes.
Possible Cuts: Mystic Remora I don't like how this eats up a ton of mana every turn. On top of that it only triggers off of noncreature spells. I don't know when I would want to play this card and I don't like how it slowly eats up more and more mana until I sac it off. I definitely prefer the Rhystic Study over this one.
Lim-Dul's Vault this is a one time topdeck manipulation. I like how I can look several times for the cards I want but the reality is that it is card disadvantage. It is somewhat like a tutor though in the fact that if I need a specific card I can dig down for it. A bit on the fence on this one either way.
Redirect This card just comes in useful at the strangest of times. Usually I dont care about where all of the spot kill goes because it rarely comes my way. I really wish they would make a willbender effect on an instant though so I could hit abilities or spells with one redirect. That would be so useful. I would love to redirect some extra turn effects but sadly I am the one who runs most of them in my meta.
Diabolic Edict It seems a bit underwhelming. I think the only reason it is still in here is due to Uril, the Miststalker. Still... it sort of sucks a bit.
Keep Watch I really wanted to give this card a shot after playing a game against Teysa where she had swarms of guys swinging everywhere. To be honest though... I think I would be better off with Stroke of Genius.
Vendilion Clique honestly I have a bit of trouble being entirely excited by her. I know she can be great to follow an evacuation up with to tuck troublesome commanders but man... I just cant seem to find a good time to use her. I rarely want her and unless I follow her behind a bounce effect or someone else's tutor I rarely know who to target or when. Maybe I just need to give her a bit more time but man... I just couldn't be impressed by this card when I had the options to go get last I played this deck.
Jace's Ingenuity I might be better off just running this as Thirst for Knowledge. It draws the same amount of cards for less mana. Sure I have to ditch 1-2 cards at the end but it will be a lot easier to cast off.
Oblivion Stone Out of all of my permenants I have I would like this to not hit my artifacts. So I think I will cut this for All is Dust which actually costs 1 less to cast and activate than the stone.
Possible Adds: Icy Manipulator I had some trouble with some maze effects last game I played. Mistifying Maze really screwed me one turn when he unequiped all my equipment. I didn't really see it coming because it was like a 6 player attack left game and someone across the table decided to screw me. I think again it comes down to people just wanting to screw me over. People target me on that kind of BS all the damn time. (after some consideration I decided that I would rather bump up my landcount and include a land strip effect than this)
Walk the Aeons Time Warp has done absolute wonders for me last time I played this deck. I think a second extra turn effect would be good to have. I would run Time Stretch but I think we are on the verge of banning it in our meta due to a turn 4 or 5 kill from Scion using a Time Stretch lol.
All is Dust I got sort of burned by running Oblivion Stone last time due to all of my equipment. I got into the situation where I couldn't use the stone or I would have no way to offensively attack. We have plenty of artifact / enchantment removal in our meta so I am hoping that this swap doesn't hurt too much but last time it was enchantments that were killing me so I would be willing to test out this change and see how it goes.
Phyrexian Metamorph I am really liking this guy as he can be a lot of different things for me. I can make him a Primeval Titan for some ramp, copy up one of my equipment, copy someone else's equipment, copy a mana stone. He just feels like he has 101 uses for this deck. To top him off I can use Academy Ruins to rez him if I want him back. Very nifty little clone. Speaking of clone he is an answer for Uril, the Miststalker who is a total jerk for this deck.
Strip Mine opponents Maze effects have given me some problems. I also sort of wanted to bring up my land count and I think adding this would help a bit.
Tectonic Edge poor man's strip mine. I am totally fine with using this as I have never had any problems having this rather than a strip mine or wasteland. Again those damn mazes can really jack me up.
Stroke of Genius drawing a bunch of cards sounds like fun. It would cost me 1 extra mana to draw 3 cards with this than if I had Jace's Ingenuity. I think I am willing to pay 1 mana for the versatility of the card.
Thirst for Knowledge I primarily like the low cost per draw ratio. In all likelihood with this one though I will probably end up discarding 2 cards at the end of it. Its not perfect but I think it has the potential to make it in the deck. It is very good in the fact that if I am out of counter magic I could potentially use this to draw into counters and still cast a counter out.
Bitterblossom this card has been a total nightmare for me to play against in the past. There are a lot of big clunkey commanders in our meta though that if I could just jump in front of I could stall them off. This bugger is soooo good at stalling. Kinda spendy though so I would probably proxy before use. (after some consideration of the card and the cost, I decided against this card. I dont like how it does not take effect right away so I have to wait a turn for a blocker plus the fact that it is difficult to tutor into and sorcery speed also hinder it. The tokens do nothing for me other than provide blockers and I think I have plenty of outlets for defense as is.)
Relic of Progenitus / Nihil Spellbomb I currently have only the bog as my grave hate. It would be nice to add another tutorable option to hate on graves. I like these 2 because I don't really rely on graveyards and they both have the option to cycle off for a card. I would only run one of them though. (While I do enjoy stopping graveyard mechanics, there aren't any decks that I feel I loose to if I cannot stop their recursion. The main offender in our meta of graveyard abuse is Chainer who can always just be shot down and his summons fall apart. Due to this I don't have an overly huge need for the hate. I like having these options but I do still have the bog in my list if absolutely necessary.)
Trickbind stifle effects are one of the few things I am still somewhat without. I don't entirely know how effective it will be for me though. I like the idea of stopping a black myojin from using its ability but other than that most everything else I feel like a stifle effect is sort of overkill for. That or stopping it for a turn just feels like way to much card disadvantage. I don't know but I figure I should look at it. (as much as I want to make this card work the only real abilities I am really afraid of in this deck would probably be the black myojin which I could just counterspell or possibly use sudden death on. I think in my meta it might be just a little too narrow of use. Sure it would be great to stop a maze effect but it doesnt solve the problem. It just delays it.)
Blatant Thievery on occasion there is 1-2 cards that really give me problems. I love how I could steal all of the maze effects in the game or steal bitterblossom or whatever the hell problems I am having. Worst case scenario it is a 7 mana steal 3 lands for good spell. I think this might earn a spot as it deals with like everything except for Uril. I could see this being less good in a counterspell heavy meta but that isnt my meta so this should work out very nicely.
All in all I wouldn't mind bringing up the land count to 39 or 40 as well if possible. I will see how all the changes go though. I would love some input on the cards possibly getting cut and or added.
EDIT: sorry about any alterations to the post but I am trying to add ideas as I get them and eliminate cards as I can justify. I would love some suggestions for why a card should or shouldnt make it in or out of the deck though.
I sort of hate how many large sorcery spells I am considering on this addition but when I look at them closer, 2 of which are essentially reset buttons. One of which just steals anything thats bothering me and the other forces sacrifices of colored permenants which gets arround my own artifacts. Plus it has the upside of costing one less mana to cast and activate than O stone. The extra turn mechanics have been fantastic so far so I am trying to bump that up to 2x. While they are sorcery speed I am in a counterspell lite meta so there is very low chances of them being countered. Takeing an extra turn essentially negates the fact that I tap out to cast it. Plus it gives me additional surprise attack phases to swing in with my commander.
EDIT 2: Ok unless someone has some commentary for the updates it looks like I might have narrowed the list down a bit. I will try to walk through what I am gaining and loosing just to try to give myself something to do:
CARD DRAW / CARD SELECTION Keep Watch -> Stroke of Genius Both of these cards have the potential for lots of card draw. The problem I have with Keep Watch is that I don't control when I want it and it is dependent on my opponents for the most part to make it good.
Jace's Ingenuity -> Thirst for Knowledge The problem with Jace's is that it usually ends up taking up most of my mana for a turn but it isnt scalable. It is hard to do much else in a turn with 5 mana tied up. The thirst is easier to manage and still do other things. I get good card selection out of the card and usually a lot of my card draw goes to waste anyways just due to max hand size issues. I have 2 large card draw mechanics in the deck now as well so I would rather shrink this one down so it is easier to cast off between other spells.
Lim-Dul's Vault -> Walk the Aeons So Lim Dul's has sort of a strange past with me. I cant figure out if its the best card ever or a terrible card. It is card disadvantage and you will probably end up loosing a bunch of life to it as well. It gets you to exactly the card you want but so does a tutor. The bottom line was it doesnt draw me a card and it ends up with me loosing a bunch of life to go find something. I have on the other hand had good success using extra turn mechanics so I will continue by adding a second extra turn mechaic. They are useful for accelerating me a land, drawing an extra card, and giving me an extra attack phase. I have almost never not found some sort of use for taking an extra turn.
Mystic Remora -> Blatant Thievery After drawing this card once, it sort of leaves a sour note in my mouth. It can be really cool sometimes... and really lame simetimes. I much prefur Rhystic Study as I dont have to pay attention to it and it just somehow always manages to find good things to do for me. The remora on the other hand... I don't like tieing up all my mana on my own turn especially not during my upkeep. The thevery is nice as it gives me a spell that I can just steal all problematic permenants on the board and make them mine. It isnt a wrath but it feels a lot like one due to the fact that I should have control of everything that could have plagued me before hand. It is never a dead spell as I can always jack some lands if need be.
Diabolic Edict -> Phyrexian Metamorph I felt like the only real use for the edict was to hit uril. the Metamorph can still deal with Uril plus it has tons of other uses such as providing a chump blocker, doubling up my equipment, making me another mana stone. Tons of uses plus it is rezable off the Academy Ruins. Sure it is sorcery speed but I think it will add enough utility to just sort of blend right into my mana stones and equipment package as a similar card.
Oblivion Stone -> All is Dust Due to all of the rampant artifact / enchantment destruction effects in my meta I am never able to cast out a stone before I plan on using it within a turn. Due to this I am swapping to All is Dust which I can avoid hitting my own equipment and stones. Plus it would cost one less to do.
Redirect -> Strip Mine sadly I just couldnt think of a whole lot of spells that I would even be able to redirect that I would want this spell for. If someone can give me a few examples other than the obvious extra turn spells I would be willing to reconsider this one. The problem is this deck is permenant light and there arent many targeting spells I can think of that I would need this for. I usually just wish it were a counterspell instead. This will bring up my land count as I have desperately needed a few more. Plus it gives me an option to deal with those damn maze effects.
Vendilion Clique -> Tectonic Edge I don't know if I just don't run enough bounce effects or my opponents don't tutor into hand enough or what. I can never figure out a good time and a good target for the Clique. My problem with the clique is that it is just obviously better in a heads up game. I don't know who to target and when. Due to this I would rather it just be another land which helps my count since my ramp numbers are a bit low. Again this gives me an option to deal with maze effects that might be plaguing me.
EDIT 3: Gahhh thats a wall of text. Let me clean it up a bit. Brb gona use some spoiler tags.
I like almost all those changes and even the ones I wouldn't do myself make sense since they probably just aren't working out in your meta. The only card I really don't like losing is Mystic Remora but my playgroup is fairly creature light. This card has been really great for me though, usually I drop it later in the game when tying up some mana on my upkeep isn't that bad and I'll only keep it around for 2-3 turns which is usually enough to fill up my hand. What I don't like about Rhystic Study is that people will usually pay the extra 1 so it is more of a resource denial than card draw but if I want it to be resource denial it ends up being card draw making the card inconsistent for me (though still very good). All is Dust seems OK but I'd worry that it just resets the board and allows them to just build back up with you tapped out but it's certainly going to be pretty lopsided since your deck is barely effected by it. Overall though I think your deck just got a nice boost in power.
I'm really strongly considering running some Time Warp effects in my deck especially since you've been talking so highly about them. Time Warp is a bit tricky since not only are there lots of counterspells out there I have to worry about Deflection type spells too so this might be time to pick up a Temporal Manipulation.
EDIT: I just bought a Temporal Manipulation, just need to find room now :P.
The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
how is spinal embrace treating you? Id like to hear about how its doing for ya.
Also, Id like to hear how the swap of oblivion stone for all is dust goes for you. I like your reasoning, but Stone has always been a boss for me
Reins of Power god I dont think I could honestly play this deck without it anymore. It has saved my freakin ass so many times now. Especially if the player you use it on doesnt have U/B there is very little they can do with your board on this swap. I have used it to borrow a Primeval Titan, to stall off an eldrazi attack, save myself from dying... I am still waiting to use it on Uril, the Miststalker then target kill him after he is mine. There are so many uses for this card and it is great to borrow that lolz board that is going to kill someone and kill its owner. Very very good card for this type of deck.
Sage's Dousing the only other card I can really compare this spell to would be Complicate. I am rarely without Wydwen in this deck as people just dont use removal on her and I am always flashing in behind wrath effects. I dont always find the you need to pay one more on the cycle of complicate that great. If you are in a very competitive meta where people combo out as fast as possible you might be able to use Complicate better but even the counter unless they pay 3 doesn't always pan out. I for one like the spell a lot more than Complicate but if I were to personally cut it, it would probably be for another hard counter. It has performed alright so far though and I havent seen the need to cut it as of yet.
Spinal Embrace I actually really really love these sort of effects. I see a lot of Eldrazi and Primeval Titans in my meta so this spell is a nice way to borrow them to either 2 for one block or swing in gaining their bonuses and gaining some life. This deck doesnt run a whole lot of lifegain and I have found this to be a good piece of utility for my Mystical Teachings tutoring. I do like having access to this sort of effect. I find the edict effects a bit easier to duck than this one. The 6 mana to cast is its only real downside. I usually end up using this spell to 2 for 1 my attacker though. I steal the biggest attacker and block the next best. It has worked out good for me so far. Not a great choice if you are up against a lot of token decks though.
Ok the Oblivion Stone vs All is Dust debate, In my eyes if you find yourself with a lower number of artifacts on the field to be targets for the stone to pop then the card is better. If you can drop a stone in play and wait a few turns it also becomes better. In this particular deck I think it is easier to keep open the mana to pop the stone but especially if you see a lot of opposition running Krosan Grip it becomes hard to rely on the stone staying in play. For me the biggest problem was that I didn't really like hitting my artifacts. My meta has a lot of answers for artifacts / enchantments and usually those sort of spells wont last all that long if they are really game breaking. I rely a lot on my commander doing some damage and blowing up my equipment hurts just too much to do. Swapping to All is Dust is the right move for me but I cannot say it is right for every Wydwen deck. If stone works for you that is great. I can remember a game the other day where I needed like 3 equipment in play to get through my opponents defenses and I then drew a stone which I could not afford to use.
EDIT: I cant claim too much credit on my deck though, I ended up using a lot of Donald's deckplan to get mine started. I have done some modifications and testing from most of what he had already together as a shell though. Going primarily draw / go style though really opens her up for some amazing control. What I love most about this deck is that it always has low board presence. The deck looks nonthreatening then it drops a few key equipments or drops an amazing hatred and kills some opponents. It is a great deck and I cant help Donald enough for all of his help putting this together.
I'm really strongly considering running some Time Warp effects in my deck especially since you've been talking so highly about them. Time Warp is a bit tricky since not only are there lots of counterspells out there I have to worry about Deflection type spells too so this might be time to pick up a Temporal Manipulation.
EDIT: I just bought a Temporal Manipulation, just need to find room now :P.
Let me know how it works out for your deck. I have noticed it was added to your list but you did not update your Wydwen thread since adding it.
EDIT: doh I just realized I need to update my decklist to reflect the last changes I made. /grumble brb. Changes can be found up 3 posts if anyone cares about them. I havent goten arround to playing this deck too much of late. I keep trying to make my Teferi deck work and I just cannot get it working how I had hoped Wydwen might become my main U/x control deck if I cant get it working soon.
EDIT 2: I have sort of been mulling over the possibility of using Crucible of Worlds for the option of rezing some of the lands back into play. I rely on a lot of utility lands in this deck and it might be worth the addition.
EDIT 3: ... soo I updated the changes that I outlined a few posts back and realized I have extra slots open in the deck. I dont know if I miscounted my decklist earlier or what... Hopefully I didnt bump something and delete a whole bunch of entries from somewhere or something like that. I will try to figure out if something is missing. For now though I have a few spells left over that I was going to cut. They might still go. I will figure it out later.
I haven't played the Temporal Manipulation yet but I'm getting more excited about this card the more I think of it. Extra turn effects really seem great here and works perfect for the surprise you're dead theme the deck has going. Also my list is updated with the current version. Thanks for the props, I was really happy to help out. This is a very underplayed general and one of my favorite decks so I'm really happy you decided to sleeve up something similar and more importantly provide some feedback on it. When I play a deck this long (about 3 years) certain things just become staples in my mind and I never think of them as potential cuts and feedback can really get me to start thinking about how important certain cards really are. My meta is a little more Eldrazi and Primeval Titan light but I'm going to keep an eye out to see if Spinal Embrace is something I want to have access to in my toolbox. Always trying to fit some lifegain in here to help offset some of the black card draw and as you mentioned this deck doesn't run much of it.
Ok... I tried doing a Toshiro Umezawa deck a while back and more than anything it sort of showed me that I should really revisit Wydwen or another similar B/X control style commander. I really liked some of the elements of the deck but sadly the commander as a whole didnt pan out for me all that well. I contemplated a few options and I think coming back to Wydwen for another shot might be my best option. So here goes some changes:
IN:
Nihil Spellbomb more grave hate. When I was last playing this list my meta hadnt developed quite as good of a grave abuse package but things have changed go figure.
Darkness fog effects can make or break you and there really arent that many of them avalible to these colors. Even without the Scepter in my list I think this will still be good.
Suffer the Past More grave hate but with lifegain attached. We dont have a whole lot of means to gain life in the list so this is a nice outlet. More life = more living and possibly more cards drawn.
Reassemblign Skeleton reusable blocker or equipment carrier. He is rarely good enough to use spot removal on.
Snapcaster Mage Great for reusing spent spells and he has flash. Well it seems he is destined for a deck like this.
Into the Roil reliable bounce with a card draw option on it.
Necromancy Instant speed rez option. I like that I could use it to rez a titan to block for me and gain some other value out of it. It seems like a great surprise sort of card.
Necropotence great card draw. I finally traded for one of these a month or two back so I can finally use it. Yes it is good and any complaints I might have had about it long ago are long gone. I guess my only worry now is fixing my mana base to be able to use it.
Propaganda the big thing here is that most people will just try to play around one of these effects. This will cut down on the amount of attacks I receive drastically. I find that it works better than No Mercy generally speaking.
Strata Scythe I guess I will give it a shot in the place of Sword of Vengeance as it costs just about as much to drop and equip but gives a much larger buff.
Darksteel Sentinel amazing blocker. I used it in my Toshiro Umezawa deck and he stuck arround all game just tormenting my opponents.
OUT:
Stinkweed Imp takes a lot of effort to recur and dredge is iffy at best in this list.
Expedition Map ehhh I have never really been that big of a fan of this card...
Spelljack too expensive to cast. I am trying to lower my curve and rely a bit less on counterspells.
Dream Fracture trying to rely a bit less on counterspells.
Sage's Dousing lowering counterspells plus this one was heavily conditional on several levels.
Sword of Vengeance loss of first strike / vigilance / and trample but I am trying out a larger buff instead. I will see if it pays off or not. (I feel like going to the scythe is sort of greedy. I would rather have some defense with wydwen instead.)
Phyrexian Metamorph this was originally in primarily to copy equipment but the more I look at it the less I like it in here.
Walk the Aeons trying to cut back my sorceries a bit. I still want to keep one extra turn effect for me to try to tutor up if need be.
Blatant Thievery I dont know if I am really happy about this cut or not. This was one of the few answers to a problematic artifact / land in the list.
Decree of Pain Just too expensive plus it is sorcery speed.
I will try to make the updates to the actual list tomorrow as I am out of here. But I got nailed down what I wanted to do.
And thanks on the Time Warp suggestion a while back. I've been nothing but impressed by how useful it can be.
As for the lands you mentioned:
Temple of the False God I dont run it because I find it to be a terrible opening hand land. It is really slow to get going. I havent really run it in a deck other than my old Akroma deck though.
Inkmoth Nexus I wasnt really impressed by it in my testing. Sure it has potential to one shot people with the scythe but my meta runs tons of removal and I am usually target number 1 for all of it just because I am usually the guy who wins a majorety of games.
Riptide Laboratory I had not been running this but I suppose with the addition of the mage I might consider it...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I can see not running Inkmoth Nexus due to it making you more of a threat but the other 2 lands are great. This deck is slow and rarely misses land drops so Temple of the False God is easy to turn on, certainly easier here than in a monowhite deck, and it gives the deck some much needed ramp. Riptide Laboratory enables some wizard shenanigans and if you have an extra mana can save you from a little extra damage bouncing Wydwen.
I updated my old Wydwen decklist... I am contemplating dusting it off for some play. Either way I sort of wanted my list more up to date. I had been running some sort of expensive counterspells which I cut, I added Snapcaster Mage and Forbidden Alchemy and updated my equipment list as well. My list is looking a bit more like Donald's than it was before but that is likely for the best.
I also added 2 clones into the list... It might not be amazing but I play in creature heavy metas where these clones can kill commanders, copy titans, and just do silly things. I thought it was worth 2 spots in the list to include them.
**I am building this deck to kill through general damage. It would be best classified as a control deck though is what I am going for.
1 Wydwen, the Biting Gale
CREATURES (6)
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Trinket Mage
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Darksteel Sentinel
ARTIFACTS (15)
1 Expedition Map
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Dimir Signet
1 Empyrial Plate
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Mind Stone
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Runechanter's Pike
1 Strata Scythe
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Vedalken Shackles
ENCHANTMENTS (5)
1 Mystic Remora
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Rhystic Study
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Darkness
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Suffer the Past
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Echoing Truth
1 Go for the Throat
1 Twincast
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Capsize
1 Forbid
1 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Hinder
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Sudden Death
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Cryptic Command
1 Dismiss
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Memory Plunder
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Reins of Power
1 Evacuation
1 Hatred
1 Spin into Myth
1 Sunder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Fabricate
1 Damnation
1 Time Warp
1 Walk the Aeons
LANDS (40)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Command Tower
1 Drowned Catacomb
11 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mystifying Maze
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Spawning Pool
1 Strip Mine
1 Sunken Ruins
10 Swamp
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
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[Modern] Allies
+counters
fixed.
but seriously, there is a reason you run a general with flash, it's so you can play draw-go. you can't do that with all those sorceries and creatures eh?
My Current EDH Decks
WUBRG Lorwyn Block Horde of Notions WUBRG
UG Momir Vig Glimpse Combo UG
UW "Rasputin Dreamcrusher" Control UW
Anyone have any feelings on Time Spiral in this deck? It is sorcery speed but it untaps the lands it takes to cast so its cool like that. I don't entirely know how I feel about filling up my opponent's hands though which is one thing I sort of question.
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[Modern] Allies
Dismiss card advantage counters are awesome.
Dissipate for all your exiling needs
Overwhelming Instinct is good if you play in a bomby creature meta.
Rewind the classic "free" counter
edit: Question how often do you find yourself lacking equipment. You don't really have anyway to search for your equips (other than the two black tutors) I would think 3 general damage per turn isn't going to cut the mustard, if you will.
Like smashing face? Like not worrying about pitiful tokens or life gain? Check out Stonebrow, Krosan Hero for all your face smashing needs
I tried building the list as best I could. I cut out a few of the counterspells. Currently I am trying to fit another 1-2 instant speed kill spells into the deck as well.
I am sort of questioning Gilded Drake a bit more of late considering it is a 3 powered flyer which could give my general some issues. I might just end up running a kill spell in its place.
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[Modern] Allies
Spawning Pool - Probably the best one because he can chump block and regenerate which can deter a surprising number of creatures from attacking you. You'll probably have mana up so most people won't even bother swinging into you so you hardly ever have to activate him. Just leave him untapped with 1B up and you're set.
Creeping Tar Pit - This one is more offensive that Spawning Pool but it fixes your mana and is unblockable which is great with equipment. I don't swing with it very often since I like to leave my mana untapped but once you get down to a 1v1 situation, it is the super late game and you have a ton of mana or you have Sword of Feast and Famine in play this guy is a champ.
Inkmoth Nexus - You don't have Strata Scythe but even with an Empyrial Plate this thing can potentially kill people in one swing or in multiple swings with a sword. He can also deter attackers because any creature he blocks ends up with a -1/-1 counter and a few creatures like Woodfall Primus will just not attack you.
Faerie Conclave is another option and Mutavault would work nicely with Mistbind Clique and possibly Riptide Laboratory. Also even with so few Wizards Riptide Laboratory is a very important cards because it lets you abuse Trinket Mage, Venser, Shaper Savant and Vendilion Clique which can really tear up someone's hand if repeatedly bounced. I've also had odd situations where Linvala was in play or I just didn't want to pay 1 life so I used it to bounce my general. You can also lock someone out of the game with Mistbind Clique.
I never thought about being able to tap Spawning Pool to activate it's own regeneration. I've never played it in a deck but that interaction makes it so much better in my eyes. The more you know!
Like smashing face? Like not worrying about pitiful tokens or life gain? Check out Stonebrow, Krosan Hero for all your face smashing needs
I had actually been looking at the Inkmoth Nexus for the deck. I hadn't really though about Spawning Pool before but now that you point it out it would make for a nice little blocking regenerator. The tar pit is one of the few that I am not too impressed by. Yes you can swing in with it late in the game but dont you usually have your general to carry the equipment? I would hate to tap down all that mana to swing with a manland, plus there is the fact that it is another comes in tapped land which is super annoying.
I think I will probably end up adding the Inkmoth Nexus and the Spawning Pool. I think I will pass on the Conclave and Mutavalt for now and see how the Mistbind pans out and any issues I have with it before I consider adding manlands for its championing. I do have 2 Mutavalts that I am not using but I dont like adding more colorless mana than absolutely neccesary to a deck.
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[Modern] Allies
Surprisingly the Mayael deck had mana issues and I managed to fight him off defensivly using my general with two swords on her and both mazes which I randomly drew into thank god. I couldnt attack like at all all game due to the damn farie token production that stuck the entire game.... really super lame. I finally executed him after putting both swords on Wydwen + Empyrial Plate and he happened to have only black blockers at the time. I then dropped a Time Warp and finished him off. It was very very nice
I almost lost the game at the very end when Scion of the Ur-Dragon dropped a Time Stretch on me when I had little to nothing to deal with it... He actually would have killed me if not for my 2 counters on the Jite I managed to gain 4 life going up to 4, I spun my top and peeked a damnation at the bottom thank god I dropped it and he conceded
Some feedback of the game I got for the deck:
Ancestral Vision this card seems like it could be very sick if I drew it in the first like 1-5 turns. Beyond that it is too slow to matter. I got stuck with it way late in the game and it was like drawing a blank card >_< I think this needs to go out for some other card draw. Instant speed would be prefurable. I have lots of options as I own most of the blue card draw.
Barter in Blood this card is sooooooooo amazing in like 90% of decks. I found it very painful and it sat in my hand alll game. Flying tokens just destroy the ☺☺☺☺ out of me so I might have to change this to some sort of -/- effect. One that is at instant speed would be great of course but I dont know if that is an option.
Overwhelming Intellect This sat in my hand all game. I think I had more success with it in my teferi deck becaus it ran a lot more big mana stones and generally had more mana avalible at all times. I find using up 6 mana to be difficult in this deck. There was only like 2-3 times in the entire game that I could have even cast this and it was on meh creatures most of the time. The other times I was tapped out. I will probably keep it in for now but it is on my radar as a problematic card in the deck.
Time Warp holy crap this was worth its weight in gold. The second an opponent you need to die has an opening in his defenses you just wack them twice with your general. I am considering a few more options for extra turn spells. I run in a counterspell light meta though so this could just be good in my meta but I had amazing success with this.
Grim Monolith I ran this at the last second to see how it would work out in the deck. I regretted it like all game. I just cant afford to pay mana to have mana. I would have been a lot faster off the bat if this had just been another 2 mana stone.
Reins of Power This totally saved my ass. Very handy as I stalled out one of the final attacks that would have ended up killing me when Scion used his Time Stretch.
Desertion stealing a creature doesnt do much for me other than give me a blocker. I like it as I can steal a general with this which is hilarious but unless it is a very troublesome general like Uril, the Miststalker I dont care much. I ran it as an Arcane Denial yesterday which I never drew but I will keep this one on the fence for now. It might come back in and it might stay out.
Misdirection due to cost I ran this as a Redirect. I honestly think I might like Redirect more in the deck. I didnt draw it but I dont like giving up cards for 2 mana. The cost of 5 mana when I dont want to give up the card seems like too much. I will stick it as a Redirect for now.
Twincast ohhh man this one was fun. I ended up copying a Tooth and Nail grabbing out my trinket mage + Myojin into hand. I love having this in the deck just in case I want to tutor into it or in case someone drops something lame like a Time Stretch. It was soooo worth it.
Mistbind Clique I actually had some trouble with this card. I considered it once or twice while tutoring and using tooth and nail but I always found it sort of suboptimal. It might end up getting cut yet as in multiplayer I just cant figure out when the right time to drop it would end up being.
All is Dust Seeing how much trouble Bitterblossom gave me I am considering a second solution for problematic stuff like this. All is dust is slow and at sorcery speed but it really takes out a lot of problems. I dont know if it will make it in but man I was thinking about it yesterday.
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[Modern] Allies
IN
Spinal Embrace a fun little card I used to run in Thraximundar. It isnt cheap but it solves any non shroud creature plus gives some life. It can be used while being attacked to set up a 2 for 1 where you steal the largest threat on the board and block off the second largest threat on the board. You get a bit of lifegain to boot on the end of it.
Counterspell this is coming in for one of the bigger counterspells I cam currently running. The efficiency of it just makes it worth running.
Arcane Denial also coming in for one of the larger counterspells.
Redirect in for misdirect due to its lower casting cost.
Echoing Truth I like it due to its ability to just completely destroy a token army. Sadly it will only remove one type of token but it still seems like a good option.
Blue Sun's Zenith Big card draw + shuffle back in. This was going to be Stroke of Genius due to the less blue mana in the initial cost but I think the shuffle back in is better. If I need it again I can go tutor it up.
Keep Watch this was going to be Stroke of Genius but I decided that if I need that sort of effect I will tutor it up. I want to try this card out for a bit and see how often I can get 4+ cards off this. If I run into problems with not being able to cast it effectively very often I will swap it out for Stroke but for now I would love to see how it runs.
OUT
Pact of Negation I didn't end up drawing it the other day but it just doesn't feel like a valid replacement for Force of Will... God I need to get my hands on one of them. I like how it costs me nothing to cast but I wish it was optional to pay the mana before my next upkeep as there are times where I will have plenty of mana open for a counter and just end up with only this in hand thus blowing my mana for next turn...
Relic of Progenitus I know it is normal to run grave hate these days but I dont feel it is always manditory. I ended up deciding that this wasnt a must have in my current meta. If I had more people using recursion combo style decks like Sharuum I might have to put this back in.
Misdirection this is being replaced by Redirect in part due to the cost to obtain and in part due to I dont feel I need the utility of being able to cast it for free instead of paying 2 mana for it.
Overwhelming Intellect got stuck in hand the other day. It also ended up kicking me in the nuts that this is creature counter only or I could have stopped that damn Time Stretch that almost wiped me off the board.
Mistbind Clique I have too few targets for it to champion. It is annoying to champion my commander with. It also seems like it would only be relivant in finishing off the final 1-2 players as even when it is being abused by the wizard bounce land it can only lock down one person at a time.
Ancestral Vision ended up being a bad draw into later in the game. I would rather this just be a solid card drawer.
Barter in Blood not a bad card but tokens are what are giving me issues. It could see play again in the future but for now it is going out for the Thevery which can solve whatever problem I am having.
EDIT: Ok I managed to level out the number of cards going in and out finally. It was tough as I had another 4 or so cards I wanted to jam in there. I would love some input on the changes I am suggesting. I will try to get some more test games in this weekend and see how it does.
Hummmm.... After counting the number of cards in my deck I realize that I am like 2 cards short. I will have to see if I am missing anything substantial... Suggestions would be nice. Otherwise I suppose I could add Stroke of Genius for one of them.
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[Modern] Allies
Teferi's Response I know this seems like a bit of a narrow card. That game I had just the other day, by the end of the game both of my mazes had been stripped by different effects. Everyone in my meta runs land stripping in a number of different forms. This stops it and draws me 2 cards. Plus if it was a Terastodon for instance that targeted my land I get to blow him up and stop all his nonsense. Woodfall Primus.... well I get to draw 2 and pop him into his persist. Any thoughts on this? Is it too narrow to run?
Bitterblossom it will slowly drain me of life but seriously having all those tokens to fight off attackers or just swarm in sounds like it could be some serious fighting power and dissuasion. I like how it comes down for little mana and it ends up costing no mana to do every turn.
Grafted Wargear -> Sword of Vengeance I have been having issues with tokens. Giving my general vigilance, first strike, and trample on top of the 2 power pump sounds great. I can defend myself better having her around and I can push through the small crap. I like the wargear I just dont see it making or breaking my assault. I can see the Sword making the difference though.
Any thoughts on these options?
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[Modern] Allies
I thought I would touch on a few cards quickly that I felt could be considered for being cut. Some possible adds as well and we will see where this goes.
Possible Cuts:
Mystic Remora I don't like how this eats up a ton of mana every turn. On top of that it only triggers off of noncreature spells. I don't know when I would want to play this card and I don't like how it slowly eats up more and more mana until I sac it off. I definitely prefer the Rhystic Study over this one.
Lim-Dul's Vault this is a one time topdeck manipulation. I like how I can look several times for the cards I want but the reality is that it is card disadvantage. It is somewhat like a tutor though in the fact that if I need a specific card I can dig down for it. A bit on the fence on this one either way.
Redirect This card just comes in useful at the strangest of times. Usually I dont care about where all of the spot kill goes because it rarely comes my way. I really wish they would make a willbender effect on an instant though so I could hit abilities or spells with one redirect. That would be so useful. I would love to redirect some extra turn effects but sadly I am the one who runs most of them in my meta.
Diabolic Edict It seems a bit underwhelming. I think the only reason it is still in here is due to Uril, the Miststalker. Still... it sort of sucks a bit.
Keep Watch I really wanted to give this card a shot after playing a game against Teysa where she had swarms of guys swinging everywhere. To be honest though... I think I would be better off with Stroke of Genius.
Vendilion Clique honestly I have a bit of trouble being entirely excited by her. I know she can be great to follow an evacuation up with to tuck troublesome commanders but man... I just cant seem to find a good time to use her. I rarely want her and unless I follow her behind a bounce effect or someone else's tutor I rarely know who to target or when. Maybe I just need to give her a bit more time but man... I just couldn't be impressed by this card when I had the options to go get last I played this deck.
Jace's Ingenuity I might be better off just running this as Thirst for Knowledge. It draws the same amount of cards for less mana. Sure I have to ditch 1-2 cards at the end but it will be a lot easier to cast off.
Oblivion Stone Out of all of my permenants I have I would like this to not hit my artifacts. So I think I will cut this for All is Dust which actually costs 1 less to cast and activate than the stone.
Possible Adds:
Icy Manipulator I had some trouble with some maze effects last game I played. Mistifying Maze really screwed me one turn when he unequiped all my equipment. I didn't really see it coming because it was like a 6 player attack left game and someone across the table decided to screw me. I think again it comes down to people just wanting to screw me over. People target me on that kind of BS all the damn time.(after some consideration I decided that I would rather bump up my landcount and include a land strip effect than this)Walk the Aeons Time Warp has done absolute wonders for me last time I played this deck. I think a second extra turn effect would be good to have. I would run Time Stretch but I think we are on the verge of banning it in our meta due to a turn 4 or 5 kill from Scion using a Time Stretch lol.
All is Dust I got sort of burned by running Oblivion Stone last time due to all of my equipment. I got into the situation where I couldn't use the stone or I would have no way to offensively attack. We have plenty of artifact / enchantment removal in our meta so I am hoping that this swap doesn't hurt too much but last time it was enchantments that were killing me so I would be willing to test out this change and see how it goes.
Phyrexian Metamorph I am really liking this guy as he can be a lot of different things for me. I can make him a Primeval Titan for some ramp, copy up one of my equipment, copy someone else's equipment, copy a mana stone. He just feels like he has 101 uses for this deck. To top him off I can use Academy Ruins to rez him if I want him back. Very nifty little clone. Speaking of clone he is an answer for Uril, the Miststalker who is a total jerk for this deck.
Strip Mine opponents Maze effects have given me some problems. I also sort of wanted to bring up my land count and I think adding this would help a bit.
Tectonic Edge poor man's strip mine. I am totally fine with using this as I have never had any problems having this rather than a strip mine or wasteland. Again those damn mazes can really jack me up.
Stroke of Genius drawing a bunch of cards sounds like fun. It would cost me 1 extra mana to draw 3 cards with this than if I had Jace's Ingenuity. I think I am willing to pay 1 mana for the versatility of the card.
Thirst for Knowledge I primarily like the low cost per draw ratio. In all likelihood with this one though I will probably end up discarding 2 cards at the end of it. Its not perfect but I think it has the potential to make it in the deck. It is very good in the fact that if I am out of counter magic I could potentially use this to draw into counters and still cast a counter out.
Bitterblossom this card has been a total nightmare for me to play against in the past. There are a lot of big clunkey commanders in our meta though that if I could just jump in front of I could stall them off. This bugger is soooo good at stalling. Kinda spendy though so I would probably proxy before use.(after some consideration of the card and the cost, I decided against this card. I dont like how it does not take effect right away so I have to wait a turn for a blocker plus the fact that it is difficult to tutor into and sorcery speed also hinder it. The tokens do nothing for me other than provide blockers and I think I have plenty of outlets for defense as is.)Relic of Progenitus / Nihil Spellbomb I currently have only the bog as my grave hate. It would be nice to add another tutorable option to hate on graves. I like these 2 because I don't really rely on graveyards and they both have the option to cycle off for a card. I would only run one of them though.(While I do enjoy stopping graveyard mechanics, there aren't any decks that I feel I loose to if I cannot stop their recursion. The main offender in our meta of graveyard abuse is Chainer who can always just be shot down and his summons fall apart. Due to this I don't have an overly huge need for the hate. I like having these options but I do still have the bog in my list if absolutely necessary.)Trickbind stifle effects are one of the few things I am still somewhat without. I don't entirely know how effective it will be for me though. I like the idea of stopping a black myojin from using its ability but other than that most everything else I feel like a stifle effect is sort of overkill for. That or stopping it for a turn just feels like way to much card disadvantage. I don't know but I figure I should look at it.(as much as I want to make this card work the only real abilities I am really afraid of in this deck would probably be the black myojin which I could just counterspell or possibly use sudden death on. I think in my meta it might be just a little too narrow of use. Sure it would be great to stop a maze effect but it doesnt solve the problem. It just delays it.)Blatant Thievery on occasion there is 1-2 cards that really give me problems. I love how I could steal all of the maze effects in the game or steal bitterblossom or whatever the hell problems I am having. Worst case scenario it is a 7 mana steal 3 lands for good spell. I think this might earn a spot as it deals with like everything except for Uril. I could see this being less good in a counterspell heavy meta but that isnt my meta so this should work out very nicely.
All in all I wouldn't mind bringing up the land count to 39 or 40 as well if possible. I will see how all the changes go though. I would love some input on the cards possibly getting cut and or added.
EDIT: sorry about any alterations to the post but I am trying to add ideas as I get them and eliminate cards as I can justify. I would love some suggestions for why a card should or shouldnt make it in or out of the deck though.
I sort of hate how many large sorcery spells I am considering on this addition but when I look at them closer, 2 of which are essentially reset buttons. One of which just steals anything thats bothering me and the other forces sacrifices of colored permenants which gets arround my own artifacts. Plus it has the upside of costing one less mana to cast and activate than O stone. The extra turn mechanics have been fantastic so far so I am trying to bump that up to 2x. While they are sorcery speed I am in a counterspell lite meta so there is very low chances of them being countered. Takeing an extra turn essentially negates the fact that I tap out to cast it. Plus it gives me additional surprise attack phases to swing in with my commander.
EDIT 2: Ok unless someone has some commentary for the updates it looks like I might have narrowed the list down a bit. I will try to walk through what I am gaining and loosing just to try to give myself something to do:
CARD DRAW / CARD SELECTION
Keep Watch -> Stroke of Genius Both of these cards have the potential for lots of card draw. The problem I have with Keep Watch is that I don't control when I want it and it is dependent on my opponents for the most part to make it good.
Jace's Ingenuity -> Thirst for Knowledge The problem with Jace's is that it usually ends up taking up most of my mana for a turn but it isnt scalable. It is hard to do much else in a turn with 5 mana tied up. The thirst is easier to manage and still do other things. I get good card selection out of the card and usually a lot of my card draw goes to waste anyways just due to max hand size issues. I have 2 large card draw mechanics in the deck now as well so I would rather shrink this one down so it is easier to cast off between other spells.
Lim-Dul's Vault -> Walk the Aeons So Lim Dul's has sort of a strange past with me. I cant figure out if its the best card ever or a terrible card. It is card disadvantage and you will probably end up loosing a bunch of life to it as well. It gets you to exactly the card you want but so does a tutor. The bottom line was it doesnt draw me a card and it ends up with me loosing a bunch of life to go find something. I have on the other hand had good success using extra turn mechanics so I will continue by adding a second extra turn mechaic. They are useful for accelerating me a land, drawing an extra card, and giving me an extra attack phase. I have almost never not found some sort of use for taking an extra turn.
Mystic Remora -> Blatant Thievery After drawing this card once, it sort of leaves a sour note in my mouth. It can be really cool sometimes... and really lame simetimes. I much prefur Rhystic Study as I dont have to pay attention to it and it just somehow always manages to find good things to do for me. The remora on the other hand... I don't like tieing up all my mana on my own turn especially not during my upkeep. The thevery is nice as it gives me a spell that I can just steal all problematic permenants on the board and make them mine. It isnt a wrath but it feels a lot like one due to the fact that I should have control of everything that could have plagued me before hand. It is never a dead spell as I can always jack some lands if need be.
Diabolic Edict -> Phyrexian Metamorph I felt like the only real use for the edict was to hit uril. the Metamorph can still deal with Uril plus it has tons of other uses such as providing a chump blocker, doubling up my equipment, making me another mana stone. Tons of uses plus it is rezable off the Academy Ruins. Sure it is sorcery speed but I think it will add enough utility to just sort of blend right into my mana stones and equipment package as a similar card.
Oblivion Stone -> All is Dust Due to all of the rampant artifact / enchantment destruction effects in my meta I am never able to cast out a stone before I plan on using it within a turn. Due to this I am swapping to All is Dust which I can avoid hitting my own equipment and stones. Plus it would cost one less to do.
Redirect -> Strip Mine sadly I just couldnt think of a whole lot of spells that I would even be able to redirect that I would want this spell for. If someone can give me a few examples other than the obvious extra turn spells I would be willing to reconsider this one. The problem is this deck is permenant light and there arent many targeting spells I can think of that I would need this for. I usually just wish it were a counterspell instead. This will bring up my land count as I have desperately needed a few more. Plus it gives me an option to deal with those damn maze effects.
Vendilion Clique -> Tectonic Edge I don't know if I just don't run enough bounce effects or my opponents don't tutor into hand enough or what. I can never figure out a good time and a good target for the Clique. My problem with the clique is that it is just obviously better in a heads up game. I don't know who to target and when. Due to this I would rather it just be another land which helps my count since my ramp numbers are a bit low. Again this gives me an option to deal with maze effects that might be plaguing me.
EDIT 3: Gahhh thats a wall of text. Let me clean it up a bit. Brb gona use some spoiler tags.
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[Modern] Allies
I'm really strongly considering running some Time Warp effects in my deck especially since you've been talking so highly about them. Time Warp is a bit tricky since not only are there lots of counterspells out there I have to worry about Deflection type spells too so this might be time to pick up a Temporal Manipulation.
EDIT: I just bought a Temporal Manipulation, just need to find room now :P.
how is spinal embrace treating you? Id like to hear about how its doing for ya.
Also, Id like to hear how the swap of oblivion stone for all is dust goes for you. I like your reasoning, but Stone has always been a boss for me
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
Reins of Power god I dont think I could honestly play this deck without it anymore. It has saved my freakin ass so many times now. Especially if the player you use it on doesnt have U/B there is very little they can do with your board on this swap. I have used it to borrow a Primeval Titan, to stall off an eldrazi attack, save myself from dying... I am still waiting to use it on Uril, the Miststalker then target kill him after he is mine. There are so many uses for this card and it is great to borrow that lolz board that is going to kill someone and kill its owner. Very very good card for this type of deck.
Sage's Dousing the only other card I can really compare this spell to would be Complicate. I am rarely without Wydwen in this deck as people just dont use removal on her and I am always flashing in behind wrath effects. I dont always find the you need to pay one more on the cycle of complicate that great. If you are in a very competitive meta where people combo out as fast as possible you might be able to use Complicate better but even the counter unless they pay 3 doesn't always pan out. I for one like the spell a lot more than Complicate but if I were to personally cut it, it would probably be for another hard counter. It has performed alright so far though and I havent seen the need to cut it as of yet.
Spinal Embrace I actually really really love these sort of effects. I see a lot of Eldrazi and Primeval Titans in my meta so this spell is a nice way to borrow them to either 2 for one block or swing in gaining their bonuses and gaining some life. This deck doesnt run a whole lot of lifegain and I have found this to be a good piece of utility for my Mystical Teachings tutoring. I do like having access to this sort of effect. I find the edict effects a bit easier to duck than this one. The 6 mana to cast is its only real downside. I usually end up using this spell to 2 for 1 my attacker though. I steal the biggest attacker and block the next best. It has worked out good for me so far. Not a great choice if you are up against a lot of token decks though.
Ok the Oblivion Stone vs All is Dust debate, In my eyes if you find yourself with a lower number of artifacts on the field to be targets for the stone to pop then the card is better. If you can drop a stone in play and wait a few turns it also becomes better. In this particular deck I think it is easier to keep open the mana to pop the stone but especially if you see a lot of opposition running Krosan Grip it becomes hard to rely on the stone staying in play. For me the biggest problem was that I didn't really like hitting my artifacts. My meta has a lot of answers for artifacts / enchantments and usually those sort of spells wont last all that long if they are really game breaking. I rely a lot on my commander doing some damage and blowing up my equipment hurts just too much to do. Swapping to All is Dust is the right move for me but I cannot say it is right for every Wydwen deck. If stone works for you that is great. I can remember a game the other day where I needed like 3 equipment in play to get through my opponents defenses and I then drew a stone which I could not afford to use.
EDIT: I cant claim too much credit on my deck though, I ended up using a lot of Donald's deckplan to get mine started. I have done some modifications and testing from most of what he had already together as a shell though. Going primarily draw / go style though really opens her up for some amazing control. What I love most about this deck is that it always has low board presence. The deck looks nonthreatening then it drops a few key equipments or drops an amazing hatred and kills some opponents. It is a great deck and I cant help Donald enough for all of his help putting this together.
Let me know how it works out for your deck. I have noticed it was added to your list but you did not update your Wydwen thread since adding it.
EDIT: doh I just realized I need to update my decklist to reflect the last changes I made. /grumble brb. Changes can be found up 3 posts if anyone cares about them. I havent goten arround to playing this deck too much of late. I keep trying to make my Teferi deck work and I just cannot get it working how I had hoped Wydwen might become my main U/x control deck if I cant get it working soon.
EDIT 2: I have sort of been mulling over the possibility of using Crucible of Worlds for the option of rezing some of the lands back into play. I rely on a lot of utility lands in this deck and it might be worth the addition.
EDIT 3: ... soo I updated the changes that I outlined a few posts back and realized I have extra slots open in the deck. I dont know if I miscounted my decklist earlier or what... Hopefully I didnt bump something and delete a whole bunch of entries from somewhere or something like that. I will try to figure out if something is missing. For now though I have a few spells left over that I was going to cut. They might still go. I will figure it out later.
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[Modern] Allies
IN:
Nihil Spellbomb more grave hate. When I was last playing this list my meta hadnt developed quite as good of a grave abuse package but things have changed go figure.
Darkness fog effects can make or break you and there really arent that many of them avalible to these colors. Even without the Scepter in my list I think this will still be good.
Suffer the Past More grave hate but with lifegain attached. We dont have a whole lot of means to gain life in the list so this is a nice outlet. More life = more living and possibly more cards drawn.
Reassemblign Skeleton reusable blocker or equipment carrier. He is rarely good enough to use spot removal on.
Snapcaster Mage Great for reusing spent spells and he has flash. Well it seems he is destined for a deck like this.
Into the Roil reliable bounce with a card draw option on it.
Necromancy Instant speed rez option. I like that I could use it to rez a titan to block for me and gain some other value out of it. It seems like a great surprise sort of card.
Necropotence great card draw. I finally traded for one of these a month or two back so I can finally use it. Yes it is good and any complaints I might have had about it long ago are long gone. I guess my only worry now is fixing my mana base to be able to use it.
Propaganda the big thing here is that most people will just try to play around one of these effects. This will cut down on the amount of attacks I receive drastically. I find that it works better than No Mercy generally speaking.
Strata Scythe I guess I will give it a shot in the place of Sword of Vengeance as it costs just about as much to drop and equip but gives a much larger buff.Darksteel Sentinel amazing blocker. I used it in my Toshiro Umezawa deck and he stuck arround all game just tormenting my opponents.
OUT:
Stinkweed Imp takes a lot of effort to recur and dredge is iffy at best in this list.
Expedition Map ehhh I have never really been that big of a fan of this card...
Spelljack too expensive to cast. I am trying to lower my curve and rely a bit less on counterspells.
Slaughter nonblack clause ==
Dream Fracture trying to rely a bit less on counterspells.
Sage's Dousing lowering counterspells plus this one was heavily conditional on several levels.
Sword of Vengeance loss of first strike / vigilance / and trample but I am trying out a larger buff instead. I will see if it pays off or not.(I feel like going to the scythe is sort of greedy. I would rather have some defense with wydwen instead.)Phyrexian Metamorph this was originally in primarily to copy equipment but the more I look at it the less I like it in here.
Walk the Aeons trying to cut back my sorceries a bit. I still want to keep one extra turn effect for me to try to tutor up if need be.
Blatant Thievery I dont know if I am really happy about this cut or not. This was one of the few answers to a problematic artifact / land in the list.
Decree of Pain Just too expensive plus it is sorcery speed.
I will try to make the updates to the actual list tomorrow as I am out of here. But I got nailed down what I wanted to do.
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[Modern] Allies
And thanks on the Time Warp suggestion a while back. I've been nothing but impressed by how useful it can be.
As for the lands you mentioned:
Temple of the False God I dont run it because I find it to be a terrible opening hand land. It is really slow to get going. I havent really run it in a deck other than my old Akroma deck though.
Inkmoth Nexus I wasnt really impressed by it in my testing. Sure it has potential to one shot people with the scythe but my meta runs tons of removal and I am usually target number 1 for all of it just because I am usually the guy who wins a majorety of games.
Riptide Laboratory I had not been running this but I suppose with the addition of the mage I might consider it...
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[Modern] Allies
I also added 2 clones into the list... It might not be amazing but I play in creature heavy metas where these clones can kill commanders, copy titans, and just do silly things. I thought it was worth 2 spots in the list to include them.
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[Modern] Allies