No sideboard at the time, here's some card explanation choices:
Birds of Paradise: Mana fixing+accel, pretty standard. Sakura-Tribe Elder: Same thing, except better chump blocker. Meishin, the Mind Cage: Totally shuts down creatures once its out. Mana Leak: Protects the important cards, stalls. Hinder: See above. Putrefy: Arguably best removal in standard, takes out annoying jittes as well. Life from the Loam: Part of the draw engine, good against wildfire variants also. Trade Routes: Part of the draw engine, makes all your lands cycle-lands, helps dodge LD also. Glimpse the Unthinkable: Needed a non creature win condition, mill seemed good. Recollect: Grabs glimpse back.
i think you lack a sufficient early game. You don't have enough excel to get out a meshin quickly, and you don't have enough early countering power or disruption either. Finally you are at odds with yourself early on. You can't hold back mana to counter without stunting your mana development
"Wall of Roots trades with Doran. Doran doesn't like Wall of Roots. You would think he might, as they are both trees. But Doran is a sociopathic tree. He and other trees don't get along – hell, he doesn't even get along with himself. Have you seen what happens when you cast two Dorans? Let me tell you, it isn't pretty." -Uri Peleg
your deck loses like 300-0 to enchantment removal, at least run privileged position to protect your meshin...
and you really lack early game power, how about carven caryatid, it helps early game and at worst replaces itself
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
Yeah, i was thinking privileged positions, what would i take out for them? And the caryatids sound good also, but also, what would come out for those?
Also, I'm not really trying to coutner everything my opponent plays, just tings that threaten me early on, or things that would kill some of my more important cards.
take out life of the loam + trade routes engine, you have no way to search the other pieces of it and life does next to nothing on it's own, and dredging lige could get your key cards into grave..
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
I like the engine but i think as a g/u deck already using Recollect you might want to think about adding in Reclaim and Gifts Ungiven which would allow you to tutor for and cut down the number of combo pieces and also allows you to run "silver bullet" style tutor targets like Darkblast vrs weenies, Naturalize vrs problem artifacts/enchantments etc.
That seems like a good idea, recollects are mostly for recurring glimpses ftw, but can you make a little thingie shwoing how many copies of everything to add/take out?
Consider Nightmare Void for your sideboard. Routes + Life will get it into your hand or graveyard rather quickly, so you don't need more than one or two copies. (Replace a few Positions, I'd say.)
I think you can replace one Glimpse with another Hinder if you need counter power, or add a fourth Recollect, which may be quite useful.
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"I am so stupid that I cannot understand philosophy; the antithesis of this is that philosophy is so clever that it cannot comprehend my stupidity. These antitheses are mediated in a higher unity; in our common stupidity."
~ Søren Aabye Kierkegaard
I like the idea of this deck but as those who have posted before said, you seriously have 0 early game stuff. Green seems to be an important color of your deck, as if you need a blocker, or some beatdown, have you considered either Kodama of the North Tree or Grave-Shell Scarab? May be Farseek, to increase you speed?
For KotNT, or GSS, take out caryatids, because with the accel you have now, it shouldn't be too hard to get them out on t4 or t5.
Also, Fluke32 has a point. This deck <3 Twincast. May be remove counter for it...
Twincast maybe, but i really dont see all that juch use in it. What would i copy, glimpse? I have recollect for reusing glimpse. And i have BoP, STE, and carven caryatid for early game, and if things get out of hand, i have counters and putrefy to not die. I honestly dont see the problem with my early game as of my last update. As for Kodama and scarab, well, this deck doesnt hope to win through creatures, seeing as how meishin kind of COMPLETELY makes them useless for anything except blocking. Hell, i'd rather run BELLTOWER SPHINX in this deck than either of those.
Look, 3 twincasts will give you a better chance at taking 10-20 cards off of the top of your opponent's library. Given that your opponent would be running a counter-heavy deck, twincast helps you get the glimpse through. Also, 4 glimpse isn't enough to win because, I really can't imagine you drawing into 3 glimpse in one turn through LftL-TR engine when you desperately need to win on just this one turn. That is why I suggested that you try running twincasts. (Also note that meishin is an enchantment, thus is a poor choice of a deck basis on an environment full of enchantment hate, adding more reasons why you should try winning faster rather than locking opponents with a killable source of control mechanism.)
And what do you supposei take out for the twincasts? Taking out counters or putrefy weakens my defense, taking out glimpse defeats the point, taking out caryatids weakens my early game (which people here seems to think is a major weakness in the deck), taking out BoP or STE slows me down a LOT seeing as how mieshin kind of costs seven mana, taking out meishin leaves me nearly completely defenseless, taking out recollect is like tkaing out a better version of twincast, because the recollect can copy the glimpse even if you didnt play it that turn and it can recur killed a killed meishin, and taking tou any part fo teh draw engine lowers my chance a lot of getting to my win conditions and stalling fast, not to mention weakening meishin, since i need a decent sized hand to make it effective.
And saying meishin is weak because there's some enchantment removal in the format now is like saying creature based decks are weak because theres tons of removal in the format. Not to mention, i have ways to protect/recur it, like recollect, counters, and privileged position.
EDIT: And who's saying i need to win in one turn??????
Now hold on there. It sounds like you're starting to think that I was criticizing the whole idea of building a deck with Meishin and LftL-TR engines... I just built this deck just to try seeing how to work it out you know, and all I just said were just scenarios I saw with the deck. Besides, I loved and ran the TR-LotL engine since I heard about it, putting meishin in was just something that made me get interested at this deck.
About winning in one turn, that was just an example ok... Now about that thing on taking stuff out... Did you notice that the current list for the deck is very cluttered based on colors?
Putrefy
Carven Caryatid
Glimspe the Unthinkable
Hinder
Priveledged Position
Meishin the Mind Cage
Here's the curve your getting at:
1cc-3
2cc-17
3cc-10
5cc-1
7cc-3
Now here's some guidelines I have learned about deckbuilding:
Keep it simple. This one thing this deck already violated, but I think is workable.
Keeping your color count low.
The current deck provides space for :symb::symu::symg: which is very hard to manage unless running mana fixing. I suggest to keep the deck as simple as possible. Maybe running it in just two colors, say UG or BU?
Avoiding Multiple mana color requirements.
So far the deck is running copies of Putrefy(1:symb::symg:), Glimpse the Unthinkable(:symu::symb:), Hinder(1:symu::symu:), carven caryatid(1:symg::symg:), Priveledged Position(2:symgw::symgw::symgw::symgw:) and Meishin the Mind Cage(4:symu::symu::symu:). This maybe the very weakness of the deck in which I really think should be addressed.
There's just simply too much stuff going on! We need to simplify things.
1) Instead of creature/artifact hate, why not bounce? Not only does it fixes the decks color complexity, it also keeps your deck costs lower. (Putrefy is practically a very pricy card.) 2) Win conditions. Your deck only runs 7 threats on breaking the game. that's right, only seven. And only 4 of those are game-winning cards(Glimpse), while 3 are just there to break things even(Meishin). Which is why, it's easy to disrupt this deck due to lack of sheer power.
3) As is, the deck is made solely to bring meishin into play. but what if your opponent does something about it like CE, or Hinder and placing it at the bottom of the library, or (for some unforeseen reasons) playing Scour at it? In fact, the deck could be build on the idea of just merely playing and replaying glimpse...
So with all that, I'll give a list of cards that I think could be used. (Please try not to flame me if you think i'm being disrespectful or something, for in fact i'm not.)
3 drift of phantasm
4 Hinder
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Twincast
4 Boomerang 4 Gigadrowse 4 Izzet Signet
4 Dimir Signet
4 Trade Routes
3 Life from the loam
3 Meishin the Mind cage
the rest are Lands
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On the works: Leyline Deck Wins
:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
OK, sorry for coming off a little flamey before, I guess i was just a little overly defensive of the deck overall. I really do think that the deck should be three colors, which isnt very hard to do considering the duals, and especially when one of the colors is green. The things i see about your build are:
1. Drift of Phantasms transmutes for only one card, hinder, and is otherwise a lot worse than carven caryatid.
2. I really find twincasts a bad replacement for recollect, since recollect does basically the same thinge, except it does it better and is more versatile.
3. Gigadrowse does't seem very good, especially since you need blue mana and blue mana only to replicate it, i'd rather have putrefy/last gasp in this slot.
4. Only four counters really doesn't seem like enough.
I appreciate your input, although a control deck like this really doesnt need to "curve out", it just needs to stall until it can lock down the game and win.
The signets seem like a good additon for a mainly non-green version, although i'm lost as to why you use izzet over golgari.
So, taking everything into account, here's my next version:
By using Gifts you can run single copies of the important engine cards which are pretty much useless in multiples. It also allows you to run a single copy of Scarab as an alternative win condition which given that the current deck dies to 1 cranial extraction for glimpse the unthinkable(the reason the cranial extractions and the shadow of doubts are necessary in the sideboard) is a good thing.
Here's the deck currently:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Mana Leak
3 Hinder
4 Putrefy
4 Glimpse the unthinkable
3 Recollect
4 Trade Routes
4 Life from the Loam
3 Yavimaya Coast
2 Underground River
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Watery Grave
No sideboard at the time, here's some card explanation choices:
Birds of Paradise: Mana fixing+accel, pretty standard.
Sakura-Tribe Elder: Same thing, except better chump blocker.
Meishin, the Mind Cage: Totally shuts down creatures once its out.
Mana Leak: Protects the important cards, stalls.
Hinder: See above.
Putrefy: Arguably best removal in standard, takes out annoying jittes as well.
Life from the Loam: Part of the draw engine, good against wildfire variants also.
Trade Routes: Part of the draw engine, makes all your lands cycle-lands, helps dodge LD also.
Glimpse the Unthinkable: Needed a non creature win condition, mill seemed good.
Recollect: Grabs glimpse back.
Thoughts?
I kill you with
it.
and you really lack early game power, how about carven caryatid, it helps early game and at worst replaces itself
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
Also, I'm not really trying to coutner everything my opponent plays, just tings that threaten me early on, or things that would kill some of my more important cards.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Putrefy
3 Carven Caryatid
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Privileged Position
3 Meishin, the Mind Cage
2 Hinder
3 Recollect
4 Trade Routes
3 Life from the Loam
3 Yavimaya Coast
2 Underground River
3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Forest
3 Llanowar Wastes
4 Watery Grave
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Cranial Extraction
3 Privileged Position
Machius proudly supports R_E's right to Rumour!
I think you can replace one Glimpse with another Hinder if you need counter power, or add a fourth Recollect, which may be quite useful.
~ Søren Aabye Kierkegaard
On the works:
Leyline Deck Wins:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
For KotNT, or GSS, take out caryatids, because with the accel you have now, it shouldn't be too hard to get them out on t4 or t5.
Also, Fluke32 has a point. This deck <3 Twincast. May be remove counter for it...
-P
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Winner of Avatar & Sig Contest Week 72
(Also note that meishin is an enchantment, thus is a poor choice of a deck basis on an environment full of enchantment hate, adding more reasons why you should try winning faster rather than locking opponents with a killable source of control mechanism.)
On the works:
Leyline Deck Wins:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
And saying meishin is weak because there's some enchantment removal in the format now is like saying creature based decks are weak because theres tons of removal in the format. Not to mention, i have ways to protect/recur it, like recollect, counters, and privileged position.
EDIT: And who's saying i need to win in one turn??????
About winning in one turn, that was just an example ok... Now about that thing on taking stuff out... Did you notice that the current list for the deck is very cluttered based on colors?
Putrefy
Carven Caryatid
Glimspe the Unthinkable
Hinder
Priveledged Position
Meishin the Mind Cage
Here's the curve your getting at:
1cc-3
2cc-17
3cc-10
5cc-1
7cc-3
Now here's some guidelines I have learned about deckbuilding:
Keep it simple.
This one thing this deck already violated, but I think is workable.
Keeping your color count low.
The current deck provides space for :symb::symu::symg: which is very hard to manage unless running mana fixing. I suggest to keep the deck as simple as possible. Maybe running it in just two colors, say UG or BU?
Avoiding Multiple mana color requirements.
So far the deck is running copies of Putrefy(1:symb::symg:), Glimpse the Unthinkable(:symu::symb:), Hinder(1:symu::symu:), carven caryatid(1:symg::symg:), Priveledged Position(2:symgw::symgw::symgw::symgw:) and Meishin the Mind Cage(4:symu::symu::symu:). This maybe the very weakness of the deck in which I really think should be addressed.
There's just simply too much stuff going on! We need to simplify things.
1) Instead of creature/artifact hate, why not bounce? Not only does it fixes the decks color complexity, it also keeps your deck costs lower. (Putrefy is practically a very pricy card.)
2) Win conditions. Your deck only runs 7 threats on breaking the game. that's right, only seven. And only 4 of those are game-winning cards(Glimpse), while 3 are just there to break things even(Meishin). Which is why, it's easy to disrupt this deck due to lack of sheer power.
3) As is, the deck is made solely to bring meishin into play. but what if your opponent does something about it like CE, or Hinder and placing it at the bottom of the library, or (for some unforeseen reasons) playing Scour at it? In fact, the deck could be build on the idea of just merely playing and replaying glimpse...
So with all that, I'll give a list of cards that I think could be used. (Please try not to flame me if you think i'm being disrespectful or something, for in fact i'm not.)
3 drift of phantasm
4 Hinder
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Twincast
4 Boomerang
4 Gigadrowse
4 Izzet Signet
4 Dimir Signet
4 Trade Routes
3 Life from the loam
3 Meishin the Mind cage
the rest are Lands
On the works:
Leyline Deck Wins:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
1. Drift of Phantasms transmutes for only one card, hinder, and is otherwise a lot worse than carven caryatid.
2. I really find twincasts a bad replacement for recollect, since recollect does basically the same thinge, except it does it better and is more versatile.
3. Gigadrowse does't seem very good, especially since you need blue mana and blue mana only to replicate it, i'd rather have putrefy/last gasp in this slot.
4. Only four counters really doesn't seem like enough.
I appreciate your input, although a control deck like this really doesnt need to "curve out", it just needs to stall until it can lock down the game and win.
The signets seem like a good additon for a mainly non-green version, although i'm lost as to why you use izzet over golgari.
So, taking everything into account, here's my next version:
3 Life from the Loam
4 Trade routes
3 Farseek
4 Carven Caryatid
4 Hinder
4 Mana Leak
4 Putrefy
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Recollect
4 Watery Grave
4 Underground River
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Yavimaya Coast
1 Mikokoro, Center of the sea
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Cranial Extraction
3 Privileged Position
1 Meishin, the Mind cage
1 Life from the Loam
1 Trade routes
Tutor 10
4 Gifts Ungiven
3 Reclaim
3 Recollect
Other 20
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Farseek
4 Carven Caryatid
4 Mana Leak
2 Convolute
4 Putrefy
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
Alternate Win 1
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
Lands 22
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Watery Grave
4 Yavimaya Coast
6 Forest
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Naturalize
4 Shadow of Doubt
4 Cranial Extraction
3 Privileged Position
By using Gifts you can run single copies of the important engine cards which are pretty much useless in multiples. It also allows you to run a single copy of Scarab as an alternative win condition which given that the current deck dies to 1 cranial extraction for glimpse the unthinkable(the reason the cranial extractions and the shadow of doubts are necessary in the sideboard) is a good thing.
Machius proudly supports R_E's right to Rumour!