I think that the 100 list is hardly going to allow anything but midrange and control. Sphinx of Jwar Isle does seem a bit weak if we're including the 15 best cards of each color. I enjoy Sower a thousand times more.
Mystic Melting should be Sex Monkeys or Krosan Grip, but that is just me.
Ok, Im going to concentrate on the Winston-180 because the person I play against suggested more varied cards.
Krosan Tusker got suggested for my Lo-Power Cube, so I thought it will probably work well here, going to replace Krosan Grip.
Sphinx of Jwar Isle was thinking of replacing Meloku, with SoJI the shroud does a lot for it in a Winston format IMO
Carven Caryatid, so thinking of replacing Wild Nacatl with CC, just because WN really only works well in Naya. CC is the only Defender in the 180 Stack.
Pellaka Wurm there isnt any life gain yet, so replacing Woodfall Primus with Pellaka Wurm, as it generates strong board presence. though I sure miss the ability to destroy Planeswalkers. IDK what else I could replace?
Is Barbarian Ring better than Ghitu Encampment? In a 180 Stack?
Yet to play with it, so I cant give any feedback...
But if anyone else has a 180 Stack I would be interested in it.
Pellaka Wurm there isnt any life gain yet, so replacing Woodfall Primus with Pellaka Wurm, as it generates strong board presence. though I sure miss the ability to destroy Planeswalkers. IDK what else I could replace?
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
But thanks quitequieter, I really wanted a combat trick and and play against soft removal, and MotWH performs really well for me, I like the tokens and removal it just has everything.
I put in Krosan Tusker, and Briarhorn over Pellaka Wurm, IDK what to cut for the Wurm? Primus has a lot of targets as there is 17 Planeswalkers out of 180 cards.
I really wanted Spellstutter Sprite, but couldnt fit Bitterblossom into black so it didnt really have synergy or many targets other than the Moxen. And thought Ghost-Lit Warder was a better counter-spell.
Should it be Acidic Slime >> Indrik Stomphowler, so that lands can be targeted, or is a 4/4 better? Im not running Avalanche Riders so should I run a creature that can target lands thats cheaper than Primus? Cause there is Mimic Vat and Erratic Portal to chain EtBF effects.
Hey Ponder, do you have a guide that would show me how to Winston with MWS?
No, sorry Power Conduit, Im not trying to be rude.
But magicmerl has done all the hard work when we Winston draft, I didnt know anything about MWS until the other week. Though it is made 100% of epic win!
Perhaps a new thread for help with MWS/ finding opponents would be good?
I would appreciate any help in this matter as well.
The only other thing I could suggest is asking another forum member via PM.
I would love to offer some help, but I am really technically incompetent, and couldnt even suggest an online primer for MWS help. I am lost as well in this regard.
Also, a big thanks to magicmerl for all the help with MWS!
Assuming you both already have working copies of MWS, here's the steps that I go through to winston:
1. Create your winston draft setup from here:metacortex.hu/~fable/generate.html
1a. Set draft type to Winston
1b. Upload your cube from a text file
1c. Set your booster size (I use 20 card packs for a 120 card total stack)
2. Draft (at the end you each get a list of drafted cards)
3. Build your deck in deckstats.net
3a. Make sure you put all of your unplayed cards below the '//Sideboard' line
3b. Add about 20 of each basic land to your SB (incase you want to you know, sideboard in land)
3c. Analyse the deck and click 'Download for Magic Workstation/Apprentice.dec' to save the .dec file
4. Open in MWS
4a. Open the .dec file
4b. Save it as a .mwDeck
4c. Battle your opponent
I also have a couple of tweaks I would make to power that list up a little.....
- Balance
- Austere Command
+ Ravages of War
+ Path to Exile
- Loam Lion
- Stonecloaker
- Leonin Relic-Warder
+ Isamaru
+ Savannah Lions
+ Kor Sanctifiers
- Jace Beleren
- Time Twister
+ Upheaval
+ Mystical Tutor
- Ghost-Lit Warder
- Trinket Mage
- Shashima, the Imposter
- Dominating Licid
- Voidmage Husher
+ Looter Il-Kor
+ Glen-Elendra Archmage
+ Morphling
+ Sower of Temptation
+ Vendilion Clique
- Smallpox
- Hymn to Tourach
- Consuming Vapours
- Sorin Markov
+ Recurring Nightmare
+ Mind Twist
+ Profane Command
+ Vampiric Tutor
- Puppeteer Clique
+ Kokusho
- Guul Draz Assassin
+ Bone Shredder
- Aftershock
- Ancient Grudge
+ Pillage
+ Smash to Smithereens
- Magus of the Scroll
- Rakka Mar
- Akroma, Angel of Fury
- Ashling the Pilgrim
- Kird Ape
+ Goblin Guide
+ Keldon Marauders
+ Spikeshot Elder
+ Hellspark Elemental
+ Manic Vandals
- Constant Mists
- Mystic Melting
- Primal Command
+ Survival of the Fittest
+ Rancor
+ Sylvan Library
- Master of the Wild Hunt
- Briarhorn
+ Treetop Village (from lands section)
+ Lotus Cobra
- Sarkhan the Mad
+ Murderous Redcap
- Sarkhan Vol
+ Tin Street Hooligan
- Venser, the Sojourner
+ Dismantling Blow
- Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
+ Oona, queen of the fae
- Snakeform
+ Simic Sky Swallower
- Lightning Helix
+ Figure of Destiny
- Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
+ Spiritmonger / Putrefy
- Prophetic Bolt
+ Fire//Ice
- Tidehollow Sculler
+ Stillmoon Cavalier
- Glissa, the Traitor
+ Pernicious Deed
- Broodmate Dragon
+ Fulminator Mage
- Bonehoard
+ Sword of Fire and Ice
- Erratic Portal
+ Squee, Goblin Nabob
- Lodestone Gargoyle
- Obelisk of Alara
- Brittle Effigy
+ Masticore
+ Razormane Masticore
+ Sensei's Divining Top
- Armillary Sphere
+ Coalition Relic
- Barbarian Ring
- Treetop Village
- Faerie Conclave
- Flagstone of Trokair
- Cabal Pit
+ 5 allied sac-lands
I also have a couple of tweaks I would make to power that list up a little.....
- Balance
- Austere Command; Is Catastrophy the better modal card?
+ Ravages of War; 2 Armageddons?
+ Path to Exile; Isnt Swords to Plowshears better, or is the Land better than Life? cause ive S2P my own dude to stay in the game before..
- Loam Lion; hes better than Savannah Lions, isnt he?
- Stonecloaker
- Leonin Relic-Warder; gosh this is a good card though!
+ Isamaru
+ Savannah Lions
+ Kor Sanctifiers
- Jace Beleren; no love for Beleren?
- Time Twister; Its P9 though!
+ Upheaval
+ Mystical Tutor
- Ghost-Lit Warder; It can be discarded as a counter, there isnt many CS atm
- Trinket Mage
- Shashima, the Imposter
- Dominating Licid
- Voidmage Husher
+ Looter Il-Kor
+ Glen-Elendra Archmage; yeah this is Good
+ Morphling; Superman is terrible!
+ Sower of Temptation; Its a good suggestion
+ Vendilion Clique; I had this in the first list, it could get back in.
- Smallpox; Best black card ever!
- Hymn to Tourach; I prefer this over Mind Twist
- Consuming Vapours; this is crazy good!
- Sorin Markov; hes a PW though!
+ Recurring Nightmare; yeah this should be in, IDK why it isnt
+ Mind Twist; you prefer this to H2T?
+ Profane Command; was really hard to cut this, I really like it too.
+ Vampiric Tutor; Demonic Tutor is much better
- Puppeteer Clique; but is Re-Animator
+ Kokusho; I know how much you love this guy magicmerl, and know hes in your Stack 100%
- Guul Draz Assassin; Level Up has worked well in our games, he should be the same
+ Bone Shredder; yuck! Shriekmaw is better IMO
- Aftershock; really? no love for mono red vindicate?
- Ancient Grudge; S2S is prolly better, though 2 there are plenty of artifacts
+ Pillage; yuck!
+ Smash to Smithereens; Ill change Ancient Grudge, and see how it plays.
- Magus of the Scroll
- Rakka Mar
- Akroma, Angel of Fury
- Ashling the Pilgrim
- Kird Ape
dont know what to say about all those minuses?
+ Goblin Guide; Ok, ill give you this one, but I honestly dont see aggro having much of a chance...
+ Keldon Marauders; yuck!
+ Spikeshot Elder; yuck! yuck!
+ Hellspark Elemental; but he dies at EOT!
+ Manic Vandals; hes Ok
- Constant Mists
- Mystic Melting
- Primal Command
+ Survival of the Fittest; Fauna Shaman perhaps?
+ Rancor; yuck!
+ Sylvan Library; I hate this card.
- Master of the Wild Hunt; this guy is so so good!
- Briarhorn; MtG needs at least one Buff spell, and this is the best of the lot
+ Treetop Village (from lands section) its listed there
+ Lotus Cobra; not enough landfall
- Sarkhan the Mad; hes a PW
+ Murderous Redcap; yuck, and Sarkhan is much better
- Sarkhan Vol; no no no, Pws stay in the Stack, there is only 17 of them/ 180 cards
+ Tin Street Hooligan; this is a red spell I sort by card template, not function
- Venser, the Sojourner; But he does cool stuff, with all the 187 dudes
+ Dismantling Blow; understand its a good card though
- Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas; Gosh you dont like PWs magicmerl!
+ Oona, queen of the fae; I like Oona too but not more than Infiltrator or Agent of Bolas
- Snakeform; It cantrips and gets rid of some really problem cards.
+ Simic Sky Swallower; but this is just some big flying dork, i dont see the point in this card? am i missing something.
- Lightning Helix; but it works so well
+ Figure of Destiny; yeah i understand everyone loves this beast of a kithkin, but Student of Warfare and Kargan Dragonlord should be fine substitutes
- Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker; you cant have MtG without Bolas! I mean, thats just being silly now magicmerl!
+ Spiritmonger / Putrefy- Nicol Bolas is in the UR section not the BG one? IDK what you mean, im confused?
- Prophetic Bolt; yep I thought it was meh too
+ Fire//Ice; done! more than happy!
- Tidehollow Sculler; this guy isnt the best, but Cavalier is yuck!
+ Stillmoon Cavalier; yuck!
- Glissa, the Traitor; Oh no you dont! I say that magicmerl! If I cant play Serra Angel, then Im playing Glissa!
+ Pernicious Deed; Deed over Broodmate Dragon?
- Broodmate Dragon; confused?
+ Fulminator Mage; nope, Terminate and Sarkhan the Mad!
- Bonehoard
+ Sword of Fire and Ice; Theres SOBAM and SOFAF instead.
- Erratic Portal; Are you going to suggest Crystal Shards? cause you know....
+ Squee, Goblin Nabob; Hmm, I guess if both Masticores are in and Survival
- Lodestone Gargoyle
- Obelisk of Alara
- Brittle Effigy
+ Masticore; Ok this one is good
+ Razormane Masticore; Dont like this Masticore, compared to the other 2
+ Sensei's Divining Top; Man I hate this card, there is no interaction with it at all, it drives me mad with anger
- Armillary Sphere; Sphere is Ok
+ Coalition Relic; Relic is Ok too, so worth thinking about.
- Barbarian Ring
- Treetop Village
- Faerie Conclave
- Flagstone of Trokair; Was thinking maybe Kor Haven?
- Cabal Pit
+ 5 allied sac-lands; but then there will be 20 Vanilla lands/ 180 cards! its rather a lot.
Thanks for all the suggestions, Ill make a more magicmerl friendly Stack of 180 I promise, but your going to have to put up with my stack one of these days magicmerl!
Thanks for the explination of how to Winston as well, very thoughtful of you, Im sure its helpful for other people too!
Actually, yes, I think that Catastrophe is hands down better than Austere Command. (it can be the 2nd 'geddon effect too...)
StP is much better then PtE, but it's noce to have two of them, the effect is so strong.
Sorin: Because Winston is almost certain to produce 3+ colour decks, Sorin is actually secretly uncastable. But don't take my word for it, by all means include him a fre times
Hymn vs Twist: They are BB and 2B for the same effect. I like the less colour intensive version here. And it goes without saying that 'twist is better at every other spot on the mana curve.
Timetwister: Yes, it really isn't as good as you'd think. And it's nowhere near as good as Upheaval.
Morphling: How about Meloku instead?
Briarhorn vs Rancor. I think that Rancor is significantly more powerful.
How about Pithing Needle guy instead of Razormane Masticore?
Figure of Destiny: Your aggro deck wants about 10 1-2 drops. I think that your stack falls below the critical mass for aggro to be viable. I guess that doesn't matter though. Your cube can be fine as a midrange/control paradise (watch me never draft red).
Actually, yes, I think that Catastrophe is hands down better than Austere Command. (it can be the 2nd 'geddon effect too...)
StP is much better then PtE, but it's noce to have two of them, the effect is so strong.
Sorin: Because Winston is almost certain to produce 3+ colour decks, Sorin is actually secretly uncastable. But don't take my word for it, by all means include him a fre times
Hymn vs Twist: They are BB and 2B for the same effect. I like the less colour intensive version here. And it goes without saying that 'twist is better at every other spot on the mana curve.
Timetwister: Yes, it really isn't as good as you'd think. And it's nowhere near as good as Upheaval.
Morphling: How about Meloku instead?
Briarhorn vs Rancor. I think that Rancor is significantly more powerful.
How about Pithing Needle guy instead of Razormane Masticore?
Figure of Destiny: Your aggro deck wants about 10 1-2 drops. I think that your stack falls below the critical mass for aggro to be viable. I guess that doesn't matter though. Your cube can be fine as a midrange/control paradise (watch me never draft red).
Allied sac-lands: yes, but they're awesome....
Oh Ok, Ill have to put some more aggressive costed creatures, and Castrophe Ill include as the 2nd Armageddon, over Austere Command, it would be good if aggro had some support, I see what your saying...
Ill look into the removal I can exchange for Path to Exile,
Yeah Sorin seems the worst of the PWs, even worse than Beleren whom I quite like. So that means another there is another spot for a Black spell.
Yeah Twist is the better card than Hymn, IDK why I would have said otherwise, though Twist and Lotus make a unfun game, IMO, where the Hymn is never going to be a card that you cant recover from, unlike Twist which can win a game by itself
Time Twister, Ill agree with you, as we had a Time Twister v Wheel of Fortune debate, Ill cut it just so there can be another blue spell, as most of them are taken by power cards.
yeah Meloku is better than Superman, but do you prefer Sower of Temptaion or Glen Elendra Achmage better than Meloku?
Yes Rancor is a Bomb! but its either Briarhorn or Hunting Triad, and I think that Briarhorn being able to Flash in as a 6/6 blocker is really strong. There needs to be one Buff spell.
Phyrexian Revoker is good, as hes a aggro creature too,
Ok I can swap FoD for Lightning Helix, if it helps support aggro, sure, though Helix is such a good card ;_;
And Ill look at lowering the curve and strategy for red to make it a viable aggro colour rather than a support colour.
Though I think Kargan Dragonlord and Rakka Mar are both good aggressive creatures, even if they are mana intensive, they give the aggressive player an endgame, if the other player can stall.
Though Ill put Goblin Guide in, if it will make you happier to play red. And I guess Manic Vandal is fine too.
And in regard to the Fetchlands, which cycle to you think is better the Allied or the Enemy? Cause I really only want 1 cycle.
Oh Ok, Ill have to put some more aggressive costed creatures, and Castrophe Ill include as the 2nd Armageddon, over Austere Command, it would be good if aggro had some support, I see what your saying...
Someone around here (wtfwlf?) was saying that they had a 3:2:1 ratio of aggro:midrange:control cards in aggro supported colours. So work out which of those colours you support, and go for it.
Ill look into the removal I can exchange for Path to Exile,
Here's the current manacurve of your white spells:
1 ccs
2 ccs
3 ccc
4 csssss
5 css
6 s
If you consciously support aggro, and use the 3:2:1 ratio, that makes for 10 aggro cards, 7 midrange cards and 3 control cards.
Here's my pick for those cards (in order of importance, italics don't make the cut):
Aggro (10): Armageddon, Catastrophe, Isamaru, Student of Warfare, Savannah Lions, Elite Vanguard, Soltari Monk, Soltari Priest, Mirror Entity Hero of Bladehold, Mirran Crusader, Ranger of Eos, Leonin Relic-Warder, Ajani Goldmane
Midrange (7): Gideon Jura, Swords to Plowshares, Elspeth, Knight Errant, Stoneforge Mystic, Oblivion Ring, Path to Exile, Faith's Fetters, Kor Sanctifiers, Exalted Angel,
Control (3): Wrath of God, Elspeth Tirel, Reveillark, Balance,
Do you like those rankings? Agree with those categories?
Here's what that manacurve would be:
1 ccccss
2 ccc
3 cs
4 ccssss
5 css
6 s
Hrmm. So, the same 4-5-6 drops as you. I guess white is stacked at 4.
yeah Meloku is better than Superman, but do you prefer Sower of Temptaion or Glen Elendra Achmage better than Meloku?
I rate Glen, Sower, Venser and Mulldrifter all over Meloku, but be aware that that is likely a minority opinion on these boards.
Yes Rancor is a Bomb! but its either Briarhorn or Hunting Triad, and I think that Briarhorn being able to Flash in as a 6/6 blocker is really strong. There needs to be one Buff spell.
Briarhorn is the better of those two.
Though I think Kargan Dragonlord and Rakka Mar are both good aggressive creatures, even if they are mana intensive, they give the aggressive player an endgame, if the other player can stall.
Dragonlord is a fine aggro creature.
And in regard to the Fetchlands, which cycle to you think is better the Allied or the Enemy? Cause I really only want 1 cycle.
It doesn't actually matter which, since they will be searching up duals.
Yeah I know of the 3:2:1 in Cube, though I actually try to aim for 7:4:1 in my Cube, its Ok, but isnt perfect yet, I dont think it needs to be similar at all, because we are not trying to support more than two drafters, who will likely have 2/P9 each, and access to fast mana. There is also a crazy % of sweepers and wraths.
I think the Aggro is based on having Winter Orb or Armageddon or similar in opening hand.
Though the Stack has less room for redundancy if you included "the best of the best" of MtG.
Blues Curve is pretty much determined with all the staple cards.
Savannah Lions and Elite Vanguard I find really unimpressive looking in such a small Stack. Isamaru is Ok, though IMO.
Leonin Relic Warder is half the mana of Kor Sanctifiers, I would think its even better than Manic Vandal et al, though the WW CC is a bit prohibitive, though Kor Sanctifiers has WW in its CC as well. Lr-W also has synergy with the bounce and sac in the Stack.
You dont like Balance? Catastrophe Ill find a way to include so there is another Armageddon effect. So maybe Catastrophe >> Balance
Mirror Entity is very strong, though better with tokens.
Though I think the Shadow Bros arent very good with so many sweepers in the pool. though Mirran Crusader has Double Strike, and double protection. WW seems really hard to cast IMO.
I would rather white cards that can provided some kind of CA, like Hero of Bladehold, and Stoneforge Mystic.
I thought Ranger of Eos would help the aggro builds in 2+ colours, he should be 3 threats for 1 card.
I would think that Loam Lion is stronger than Isamaru, though its a swap Im happy making either way.
Actually I just realized that Baneslayer Angel is missing! zOMG!
Savannah Lions isn't that much weaker than Isamaru. How mana effects in this cube can do 1 damage but not 2?.
Uhuh what would you suggest as the Non-Creature spells to take out for Land Tax? And I think in a Stack this small Stoneforge Mysytic is a little better than Tutor, even though it doesnt get Enchantments.
There are quite a few cards that have different interactions between 1 and 2 toughness creatures. Though its mainly a blocking thing.
I would think that Student of Warfare and then Isamaru are the two best white one drops. If you dont want Loam Lion. and Figure of Destiny is in the Gold section as well.
In regards to the aggressive strategy, is there another artefact like Winter Orb that would support Armageddon?
Would Tangle Wire, be a good card? Some one already suggested it, so maybe?
I agree that Lions are slightly worse than Isamaru. How about running Loam Lions and Steppe Lynx instead of the two 2/1 dudes? (of course, that makes even more of an arguement for all 10 saclands... maybe they could come in for some gold cards?)
Leonin Relic-Warder, I agree looks strong. But it's not a good aggro card (it's not competing with the Soltari brothers for inclusion), and I don't think that it's strong enough to make it in as a midrange card.
Now for something more controversial: cutting wrath to fit in Enlightened Tutor and Land Tax.
Baneslayer Angel I don't think is good enough in a cube of this size.
I think that for curve reasons, Hero of Bladehold isn't doesn't meet the standard of 4 drops. Mirran Crusader is pretty awesome as an aggro curve topper.
Tangle Wire would be a very good aggro support card. I think that you should split your artifacts into Equipment / Creatures / Mana / Misc, with Tangle Wire competing in that misc slot.
Ok, if we tweak the lists like so (italics for cards that miss the cut):
Midrange (7): Gideon Jura, Swords to Plowshares, Elspeth, Knight Errant, Stoneforge Mystic, Oblivion Ring, Faith's Fetters, Path to Exile, Kor Sanctifiers, Exalted Angel, Baneslayer Angel, Leonin Relic-Warder,
Control (3): Enlightened Tutor, Land Tax, Reveillark, Balance, Wrath of God, Elspeth Tirel, Moat,
Curve
1 ccccssss
2 ccc
3 ccs
4 ss
5 cs
6 s
That curve feels right for white. I could see tweaking the white aggro slots more, but I can't imagine cubing without any of the white midrange or control cards.
If you're happy with that, what other colours are you planning on having be aggro? Only red? Here's how I see the splits:
Colour (aggro/midrange/control)
White (10/7/3)
Red (10/7/3)
Black (3/10/7)
Green (5/15/0)
Blue (0/15/5)
I agree that Lions are slightly worse than Isamaru. How about running Loam Lions and Steppe Lynx instead of the two 2/1 dudes? (of course, that makes even more of an arguement for all 10 saclands... maybe they could come in for some gold cards?)
Leonin Relic-Warder, I agree looks strong. But it's not a good aggro card (it's not competing with the Soltari brothers for inclusion), and I don't think that it's strong enough to make it in as a midrange card.
Now for something more controversial: cutting wrath to fit in Enlightened Tutor and Land Tax.
Baneslayer Angel I don't think is good enough in a cube of this size.
I think that for curve reasons, Hero of Bladehold isn't doesn't meet the standard of 4 drops. Mirran Crusader is pretty awesome as an aggro curve topper.
Tangle Wire would be a very good aggro support card. I think that you should split your artifacts into Equipment / Creatures / Mana / Misc, with Tangle Wire competing in that misc slot.
Ok, if we tweak the lists like so (italics for cards that miss the cut):
Midrange (7): Gideon Jura, Swords to Plowshares, Elspeth, Knight Errant, Stoneforge Mystic, Oblivion Ring, Faith's Fetters, Path to Exile, Kor Sanctifiers, Exalted Angel, Baneslayer Angel, Leonin Relic-Warder,
Control (3): Enlightened Tutor, Land Tax, Reveillark, Balance, Wrath of God, Elspeth Tirel, Moat,
Curve
1 ccccssss
2 ccc
3 ccs
4 ss
5 cs
6 s
That curve feels right for white. I could see tweaking the white aggro slots more, but I can't imagine cubing without any of the white midrange or control cards.
If you're happy with that, what other colours are you planning on having be aggro? Only red? Here's how I see the splits:
Colour (aggro/midrange/control)
White (10/7/3)
Red (10/7/3)
Black (3/10/7)
Green (5/15/0)
Blue (0/15/5)
Does that look like a good split?
I really appreciate your suggestions,
But Wrath of God; Baneslayer Angel; and Hero of Bladehold; dont make the cut?
I would have thought Path to Exile was no where as good as Wrath of God, with cards like Thrun the Last Troll?
Tangle Wire is an easy include, and Ive shuffled around the artefacts
But your list of white is so much different than mine magicmerl, Im going to put it in a separate list. I really like the suggestions and some of them Ive taken on board. but your list looks so different than mine!
Please feel free to make suggestions regarding the other colours though, and the OP doest have a change log, just its edited.
It is designed solely for 90 card Winston Drafts.
22 Cards in each Primary Colour.
It runs a 10 Creature : 10 Non-Creature Balance in each of the Primary Colours. And 2 Wildcard in either C/NC .
All Comments, Suggestions, Discussion, Debate or Questions welcome.
Its currently at 185 cards.
magicmerls Winston-180 List: Post#3
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Mystic Melting should be Sex Monkeys or Krosan Grip, but that is just me.
Creatures (16-10-8)
(16)
1 Loam Lion
1 Student of Warfare
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
1 Steppe Lynx
1 Perimeter Captain
1 Mother of Runes
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Mistral Charger
1 Accorder Paladin
1 Spectral Lynx
1 Wall of Omens
1 Knight of Meadowgrain
1 Temple Acolyte
1 Auriok Champion
(10)
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Stonecloaker
1 Porcelain Legionnaire
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Mirror Entity
1 Flickerwisp
1 Blade Splicer
1 Order of Whiteclay
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Paladin il-Vec
(8)
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Reveillark
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Exalted Angel
1 Sunblast Angel
1 Sun Titan
Spells
(14)
1 Path to Exile
1 Mana Tithe
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Oust
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Angels Grace
1 Land Tax
1 Harms Way
1 Rebuff the Wicked
1 Celestial Purge
1 Temporal Isolation
1 Balance
1 Revoke Existence
1 Dawn Charm
(4)
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura of Silence
1 Abolish
(8)
1 Ravages of War
1 Ajani Goldmane
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Armageddon
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Gideon Jura
1 Elspeth Tirel
1 Spectral Procession
(11)
1 Enclave Cryptologist
1 Cursecatcher
1 Delver of Secrets
1 Kraken Hatchling
1 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Looter il-Kor
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Coralhelm Commander
1 Waterfront Bouncer
(7)
1 Spined Thopter
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Serendib Efreet
1 Man-o'-War
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1 Trinket Mage
1 Wall of Frost
(8)
1 Voidmage Husher
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Mulldrifter
1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
1 Consecrated Sphinx
(19)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Force Spike
1 Mental Mistep
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Condescend
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Stifle
1 Memory Lapse
1 Time Walk
1 Miscalculation
1 Mana Drain
1 Mana Leak
1 Daze
1 Remand
1 Arcane Denial
1 Into the Roil
1 Copy Artifact
(7)
1 Jace Beleren
1 Exclude
1 Forbid
1 Frantic Search
1 Psionic Blast
1 Time Twister
1 Tinker
(11)
1 Tezzeret's Gambit
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Cryptic Command
1 Deep Analysis
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Force of Will
1 Treachery
1 Bribery
1 Desertion
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Upheaval
(15)
1 Vampire Lacerator
1 Guul Draz Vampire
1 Diregraf Ghoul
1 Fume Spitter
1 Will-o'-the-Wisp
1 Carnophage
1 Shadow Guildmage
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Dark Confidant
1 Bloodghast
1 Oona's Prowler
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Black Knight
1 Augur of Skulls
1 Relentless Rats
(2)
1 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Hypnotic Specter
(7)
1 Sewer Nemisis
1 Nekrataal
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Skinrender
1 Shriekmaw
1 Puppeteer Clique
1 Grave Titan
(25)
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Dark Ritual
1 Mind Twist
1 Unearth
1 Thoughtseize
1 Despise
1 Vampric Tutor
1 Reanimate
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Deathmark
1 Sarcomancy
1 Raven's Crime
1 Vendetta
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Bitterblossom
1 Go for the Throat
1 Smallpox
1 Doom Blade
1 Animate Dead
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Sinkhole
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Profane Command
1 Smother
(8)
1 Stupor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Dismember
1 Necromancy
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Praetor's Grasp
1 Tribute to Hunger
(5)
1 Damnation
1 Consuming Vapors
1 Snuff Out
1 Barter in Blood
1 Contagion
RED
Creatures (15-7-10)
(15)
1 Kird Ape
1 Goblin Guide
1 Stromkirk Noble
1 Reckless Waif
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Goblin Welder
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Spikeshot Elder
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Blood Knight
1 Kargan Dragonlord
1 Stormblood Berserker
1 Keldon Marauders
1 Plated Geopede
(7)
1 Manic Vandal
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Chandra's Phoenix
1 Goblin Ruinblaster
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Keldon Vandals
1 Kurin Outlaw
(9)
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Inferno Titan
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Moltensteel Dragon
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 Greater Gargadon
Spells
(15)
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Shattering Spree
1 Flame Slash
1 Earthquake
1 Rolling Earthquake
1 Burning Inquiry (Frantic Looting)
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Lava Dart
1 Forked Bolt
1 Magma Jet
1 Arc Trail
1 Searing Blaze
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pyroclasm
(7)
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Pillage
1 Brimstone Volley
1 Chaos Warp
1 Slagstorm
1 Thunderclap
(10)
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Chandra, the Firebrand
1 Ricochet Trap
1 Chandra Nalaar
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Fireblast
1 Flameshot
1 Cave-In
1 Word of Seizing
1 Wildfire
GREEN
Creatures (20-9-13)
(20)
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Wild Nactyl
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 Arbor Elf
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Wall of Roots
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Skinshifter
1 River Boa
1 Mayor of Avabruk
1 Viridian Emissary
(9)
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Ohran Viper
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Carven Caryatid
1 Great Sable Stag
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Caller of the Claw
(11)
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Vengevine
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Genesis
1 Acidic Slime
1 Kodoma of the North Tree
1 Primeval Titan
1 Woodfall Primus
Spells
(12)
1 Green Suns' Zenith
1 Nature's Claim
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Noxious Revival
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Oxidize
1 Fastbond
1 Caravan Vigil
1 Regrowth
1 Constant Mists
1 Life from the Loam
1 Channel
(3)
1 Cultivate
1 Harrow
1 Kadoma's Reach
(7)
1 Bramblecrush
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Primal Command
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Plow Under
1 Summoning Trap
1 Wall of Denial
1 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Azorius Guildmage
1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Sygg, River Cutthroat
1 Sarkhan the Mad
1 Fulmanator Mage
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Sarkhan Vol
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Vindicate
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Stillmoon Cavalier
1 Fire // Ice
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Putrid Leech
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Figure of Destiny
1 Lightning Helix
1 Trygon Predator
1 Snakeform
1 Mystic Snake
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
(11)
1 Phyrexian Walker
1 Shield Sphere
1 Memnite
1 Orithopter
1 Brass Man
1 Signal Pest
1 Epochrasite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Wall of Tanglecord
1 Spellskite
1 Perilous Myr
(3)
1 Pilgrim's Eye
1 Palladium Myr
1 Etched Champion
(8)
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Molten-Tail Masticore
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Dodecapod
1 Precursor Golem
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere
(11)
1 Mishra's Bauble
1 Jeweled Amulet
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Chimeric Mass
(6)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Meekstone
1 Skullclamp
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Nihil Spellbomb
(14)
1 Winter Orb
1 Ankh of Mishra
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Scroll Rack
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grim Monolith
1 Isocron Scepter
1 Mind Stone
1 Simic Signet
1 Izzet Signet
1 Boros Signet
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Sphere of the Suns
(6)
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Grafted Wargear
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Mimic Vat
1 Coalition Relic
1 Vedelken Shackles
(8)
1 Nevinryall's Disk
1 Icy Manipulator
1 Smokestack
1 Erratic Portal
1 Batterskull
1 Memory Jar
1 All is Dust
1 Karn Liberated
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Raging Ravine
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Murmering Bosk
1 Gavony Township
1 Kher Keep
1 Pendelhaven
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Academy Ruins
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Ghitu Encampment
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Vesuva
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 City of Brass
1 Grand Coliseum
1 Dust Bowl
1 Strip Mine
1 Rishadan Port
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Workshop
1 Contested War Zone
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Mishra's Factory
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
I like Keiga better, but for whatever reason you don't then Palinchron is better.
Indrik Stomphowler is perfect.
I may check the 180 list later but not now.
Also, Spellstutter Sprite and the Black assassin dude don't measure up.
Slagstorm is also probably not that hot but I could be wrong.
Juju Alters - Altered MTG Cards
So which is better then, Acidic Slime or Indrik Stomphowler?
Smokestack is in over Tangle Wire, would you swap them around?
Spellstutter Sprite has a lot of targets actually, and is IMO more relevant than Spiketail Drake or something
Guul Draz Assassin should be fine in Winston, where Enclave Cryptologist 3 Levels really quick. Its at least worth a trial.
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Krosan Tusker got suggested for my Lo-Power Cube, so I thought it will probably work well here, going to replace Krosan Grip.
Sphinx of Jwar Isle was thinking of replacing Meloku, with SoJI the shroud does a lot for it in a Winston format IMO
Carven Caryatid, so thinking of replacing Wild Nacatl with CC, just because WN really only works well in Naya. CC is the only Defender in the 180 Stack.
Pellaka Wurm there isnt any life gain yet, so replacing Woodfall Primus with Pellaka Wurm, as it generates strong board presence. though I sure miss the ability to destroy Planeswalkers. IDK what else I could replace?
Is Barbarian Ring better than Ghitu Encampment? In a 180 Stack?
Yet to play with it, so I cant give any feedback...
But if anyone else has a 180 Stack I would be interested in it.
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Theres some changes, Krosan Tusker is in.
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
i like woodfall primus more than pelakka wurm, briarhorn, and master of the wild hunt.
Primus is in the current list in the OP.
But thanks quitequieter, I really wanted a combat trick and and play against soft removal, and MotWH performs really well for me, I like the tokens and removal it just has everything.
I put in Krosan Tusker, and Briarhorn over Pellaka Wurm, IDK what to cut for the Wurm? Primus has a lot of targets as there is 17 Planeswalkers out of 180 cards.
I really wanted Spellstutter Sprite, but couldnt fit Bitterblossom into black so it didnt really have synergy or many targets other than the Moxen. And thought Ghost-Lit Warder was a better counter-spell.
Shakshima, the Imposter? should this be Vesuvan Shapeshifter?
Is there another Card for the Mana Denial deck?
Smokestack; Winter Orb; Dustbowl; Stripmine; Rishadan Port; Armageddon; Balance; Smallpox; Plow Under; Woodfall Primus; Vindicate; Aftershock; Nicol Bolas; Ajani Vengeant; Venser, Shaper Servant; Icy Manipulator;
Should it be Acidic Slime >> Indrik Stomphowler, so that lands can be targeted, or is a 4/4 better? Im not running Avalanche Riders so should I run a creature that can target lands thats cheaper than Primus? Cause there is Mimic Vat and Erratic Portal to chain EtBF effects.
Does Dwarven Blastminer warrant play?
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
No, sorry Power Conduit, Im not trying to be rude.
But magicmerl has done all the hard work when we Winston draft, I didnt know anything about MWS until the other week. Though it is made 100% of epic win!
Perhaps a new thread for help with MWS/ finding opponents would be good?
I would appreciate any help in this matter as well.
The only other thing I could suggest is asking another forum member via PM.
I would love to offer some help, but I am really technically incompetent, and couldnt even suggest an online primer for MWS help. I am lost as well in this regard.
Also, a big thanks to magicmerl for all the help with MWS!
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
1. Create your winston draft setup from here:metacortex.hu/~fable/generate.html
1a. Set draft type to Winston
1b. Upload your cube from a text file
1c. Set your booster size (I use 20 card packs for a 120 card total stack)
2. Draft (at the end you each get a list of drafted cards)
3. Build your deck in deckstats.net
3a. Make sure you put all of your unplayed cards below the '//Sideboard' line
3b. Add about 20 of each basic land to your SB (incase you want to you know, sideboard in land)
3c. Analyse the deck and click 'Download for Magic Workstation/Apprentice.dec' to save the .dec file
4. Open in MWS
4a. Open the .dec file
4b. Save it as a .mwDeck
4c. Battle your opponent
I also have a couple of tweaks I would make to power that list up a little.....
- Austere Command
+ Ravages of War
+ Path to Exile
- Loam Lion
- Stonecloaker
- Leonin Relic-Warder
+ Isamaru
+ Savannah Lions
+ Kor Sanctifiers
- Jace Beleren
- Time Twister
+ Upheaval
+ Mystical Tutor
- Ghost-Lit Warder
- Trinket Mage
- Shashima, the Imposter
- Dominating Licid
- Voidmage Husher
+ Looter Il-Kor
+ Glen-Elendra Archmage
+ Morphling
+ Sower of Temptation
+ Vendilion Clique
- Smallpox
- Hymn to Tourach
- Consuming Vapours
- Sorin Markov
+ Recurring Nightmare
+ Mind Twist
+ Profane Command
+ Vampiric Tutor
- Puppeteer Clique
+ Kokusho
- Guul Draz Assassin
+ Bone Shredder
- Aftershock
- Ancient Grudge
+ Pillage
+ Smash to Smithereens
- Magus of the Scroll
- Rakka Mar
- Akroma, Angel of Fury
- Ashling the Pilgrim
- Kird Ape
+ Goblin Guide
+ Keldon Marauders
+ Spikeshot Elder
+ Hellspark Elemental
+ Manic Vandals
- Constant Mists
- Mystic Melting
- Primal Command
+ Survival of the Fittest
+ Rancor
+ Sylvan Library
- Master of the Wild Hunt
- Briarhorn
+ Treetop Village (from lands section)
+ Lotus Cobra
- Sarkhan the Mad
+ Murderous Redcap
- Sarkhan Vol
+ Tin Street Hooligan
- Venser, the Sojourner
+ Dismantling Blow
- Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
+ Oona, queen of the fae
- Snakeform
+ Simic Sky Swallower
- Lightning Helix
+ Figure of Destiny
- Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
+ Spiritmonger / Putrefy
- Prophetic Bolt
+ Fire//Ice
- Tidehollow Sculler
+ Stillmoon Cavalier
- Glissa, the Traitor
+ Pernicious Deed
- Broodmate Dragon
+ Fulminator Mage
- Bonehoard
+ Sword of Fire and Ice
- Erratic Portal
+ Squee, Goblin Nabob
- Lodestone Gargoyle
- Obelisk of Alara
- Brittle Effigy
+ Masticore
+ Razormane Masticore
+ Sensei's Divining Top
- Armillary Sphere
+ Coalition Relic
- Barbarian Ring
- Treetop Village
- Faerie Conclave
- Flagstone of Trokair
- Cabal Pit
+ 5 allied sac-lands
Thanks for all the suggestions, Ill make a more magicmerl friendly Stack of 180 I promise, but your going to have to put up with my stack one of these days magicmerl!
Thanks for the explination of how to Winston as well, very thoughtful of you, Im sure its helpful for other people too!
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
StP is much better then PtE, but it's noce to have two of them, the effect is so strong.
Sorin: Because Winston is almost certain to produce 3+ colour decks, Sorin is actually secretly uncastable. But don't take my word for it, by all means include him a fre times
Hymn vs Twist: They are BB and 2B for the same effect. I like the less colour intensive version here. And it goes without saying that 'twist is better at every other spot on the mana curve.
Timetwister: Yes, it really isn't as good as you'd think. And it's nowhere near as good as Upheaval.
Morphling: How about Meloku instead?
Briarhorn vs Rancor. I think that Rancor is significantly more powerful.
How about Pithing Needle guy instead of Razormane Masticore?
Figure of Destiny: Your aggro deck wants about 10 1-2 drops. I think that your stack falls below the critical mass for aggro to be viable. I guess that doesn't matter though. Your cube can be fine as a midrange/control paradise (watch me never draft red).
Allied sac-lands: yes, but they're awesome....
Oh Ok, Ill have to put some more aggressive costed creatures, and Castrophe Ill include as the 2nd Armageddon, over Austere Command, it would be good if aggro had some support, I see what your saying...
Ill look into the removal I can exchange for Path to Exile,
Yeah Sorin seems the worst of the PWs, even worse than Beleren whom I quite like. So that means another there is another spot for a Black spell.
Yeah Twist is the better card than Hymn, IDK why I would have said otherwise, though Twist and Lotus make a unfun game, IMO, where the Hymn is never going to be a card that you cant recover from, unlike Twist which can win a game by itself
Time Twister, Ill agree with you, as we had a Time Twister v Wheel of Fortune debate, Ill cut it just so there can be another blue spell, as most of them are taken by power cards.
yeah Meloku is better than Superman, but do you prefer Sower of Temptaion or Glen Elendra Achmage better than Meloku?
Yes Rancor is a Bomb! but its either Briarhorn or Hunting Triad, and I think that Briarhorn being able to Flash in as a 6/6 blocker is really strong. There needs to be one Buff spell.
Phyrexian Revoker is good, as hes a aggro creature too,
Ok I can swap FoD for Lightning Helix, if it helps support aggro, sure, though Helix is such a good card ;_;
And Ill look at lowering the curve and strategy for red to make it a viable aggro colour rather than a support colour.
Though I think Kargan Dragonlord and Rakka Mar are both good aggressive creatures, even if they are mana intensive, they give the aggressive player an endgame, if the other player can stall.
Though Ill put Goblin Guide in, if it will make you happier to play red. And I guess Manic Vandal is fine too.
And in regard to the Fetchlands, which cycle to you think is better the Allied or the Enemy? Cause I really only want 1 cycle.
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Someone around here (wtfwlf?) was saying that they had a 3:2:1 ratio of aggro:midrange:control cards in aggro supported colours. So work out which of those colours you support, and go for it.
Here's the current manacurve of your white spells:
1 ccs
2 ccs
3 ccc
4 csssss
5 css
6 s
If you consciously support aggro, and use the 3:2:1 ratio, that makes for 10 aggro cards, 7 midrange cards and 3 control cards.
Here's my pick for those cards (in order of importance, italics don't make the cut):
Aggro (10): Armageddon, Catastrophe, Isamaru, Student of Warfare, Savannah Lions, Elite Vanguard, Soltari Monk, Soltari Priest, Mirror Entity Hero of Bladehold, Mirran Crusader, Ranger of Eos, Leonin Relic-Warder, Ajani Goldmane
Midrange (7): Gideon Jura, Swords to Plowshares, Elspeth, Knight Errant, Stoneforge Mystic, Oblivion Ring, Path to Exile, Faith's Fetters, Kor Sanctifiers, Exalted Angel,
Control (3): Wrath of God, Elspeth Tirel, Reveillark, Balance,
Do you like those rankings? Agree with those categories?
Here's what that manacurve would be:
1 ccccss
2 ccc
3 cs
4 ccssss
5 css
6 s
Hrmm. So, the same 4-5-6 drops as you. I guess white is stacked at 4.
I rate Glen, Sower, Venser and Mulldrifter all over Meloku, but be aware that that is likely a minority opinion on these boards.
Briarhorn is the better of those two.
Dragonlord is a fine aggro creature.
It doesn't actually matter which, since they will be searching up duals.
Yeah I know of the 3:2:1 in Cube, though I actually try to aim for 7:4:1 in my Cube, its Ok, but isnt perfect yet, I dont think it needs to be similar at all, because we are not trying to support more than two drafters, who will likely have 2/P9 each, and access to fast mana. There is also a crazy % of sweepers and wraths.
I think the Aggro is based on having Winter Orb or Armageddon or similar in opening hand.
Though the Stack has less room for redundancy if you included "the best of the best" of MtG.
Blues Curve is pretty much determined with all the staple cards.
Savannah Lions and Elite Vanguard I find really unimpressive looking in such a small Stack. Isamaru is Ok, though IMO.
Leonin Relic Warder is half the mana of Kor Sanctifiers, I would think its even better than Manic Vandal et al, though the WW CC is a bit prohibitive, though Kor Sanctifiers has WW in its CC as well. Lr-W also has synergy with the bounce and sac in the Stack.
You dont like Balance? Catastrophe Ill find a way to include so there is another Armageddon effect. So maybe Catastrophe >> Balance
Mirror Entity is very strong, though better with tokens.
Though I think the Shadow Bros arent very good with so many sweepers in the pool. though Mirran Crusader has Double Strike, and double protection. WW seems really hard to cast IMO.
I would rather white cards that can provided some kind of CA, like Hero of Bladehold, and Stoneforge Mystic.
I thought Ranger of Eos would help the aggro builds in 2+ colours, he should be 3 threats for 1 card.
I would think that Loam Lion is stronger than Isamaru, though its a swap Im happy making either way.
Actually I just realized that Baneslayer Angel is missing! zOMG!
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Savannah Lions isn't that much weaker than Isamaru. How mana effects in this cube can do 1 damage but not 2?.
Uhuh what would you suggest as the Non-Creature spells to take out for Land Tax? And I think in a Stack this small Stoneforge Mysytic is a little better than Tutor, even though it doesnt get Enchantments.
There are quite a few cards that have different interactions between 1 and 2 toughness creatures. Though its mainly a blocking thing.
I would think that Student of Warfare and then Isamaru are the two best white one drops. If you dont want Loam Lion. and Figure of Destiny is in the Gold section as well.
In regards to the aggressive strategy, is there another artefact like Winter Orb that would support Armageddon?
Would Tangle Wire, be a good card? Some one already suggested it, so maybe?
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Leonin Relic-Warder, I agree looks strong. But it's not a good aggro card (it's not competing with the Soltari brothers for inclusion), and I don't think that it's strong enough to make it in as a midrange card.
Now for something more controversial: cutting wrath to fit in Enlightened Tutor and Land Tax.
Baneslayer Angel I don't think is good enough in a cube of this size.
I think that for curve reasons, Hero of Bladehold isn't doesn't meet the standard of 4 drops. Mirran Crusader is pretty awesome as an aggro curve topper.
Tangle Wire would be a very good aggro support card. I think that you should split your artifacts into Equipment / Creatures / Mana / Misc, with Tangle Wire competing in that misc slot.
Ok, if we tweak the lists like so (italics for cards that miss the cut):
Aggro (10): Armageddon, Catastrophe, Isamaru, Student of Warfare, Soltari Monk, Soltari Priest, Mirror Entity, Loam Lion, Steppe Lynx, Mirran Crusader, Hero of Bladehold, Ranger of Eos, Ajani Goldmane, Savannah Lions, Elite Vanguard,
Midrange (7): Gideon Jura, Swords to Plowshares, Elspeth, Knight Errant, Stoneforge Mystic, Oblivion Ring, Faith's Fetters, Path to Exile, Kor Sanctifiers, Exalted Angel, Baneslayer Angel, Leonin Relic-Warder,
Control (3): Enlightened Tutor, Land Tax, Reveillark, Balance, Wrath of God, Elspeth Tirel, Moat,
Curve
1 ccccssss
2 ccc
3 ccs
4 ss
5 cs
6 s
That curve feels right for white. I could see tweaking the white aggro slots more, but I can't imagine cubing without any of the white midrange or control cards.
If you're happy with that, what other colours are you planning on having be aggro? Only red? Here's how I see the splits:
Colour (aggro/midrange/control)
White (10/7/3)
Red (10/7/3)
Black (3/10/7)
Green (5/15/0)
Blue (0/15/5)
Does that look like a good split?
I really appreciate your suggestions,
But Wrath of God; Baneslayer Angel; and Hero of Bladehold; dont make the cut?
I would have thought Path to Exile was no where as good as Wrath of God, with cards like Thrun the Last Troll?
Tangle Wire is an easy include, and Ive shuffled around the artefacts
But your list of white is so much different than mine magicmerl, Im going to put it in a separate list. I really like the suggestions and some of them Ive taken on board. but your list looks so different than mine!
Please feel free to make suggestions regarding the other colours though, and the OP doest have a change log, just its edited.
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
Here's my divergent list:
1 Student of Warfare
1 Savannah Lions
1 Elite Vanguard
1 Soltari Monk
1 Soltari Priest
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Mirror Entity
1 Reveillark
1 Land Tax
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Armageddon
1 Wrath of God
1 Gideon Jura
1 Catastrophe
1 Force of Will
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mana Drain
1 Counterspell
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Treachery
1 Time Spiral
1 Upheaval
1 Enclave Cryptologist
1 Looter Il-Kor
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Glen-Elendra Archmage
1 Venser, Shaper Servant
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Mulldrifter
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Go for the Throat
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Necromancy
1 Damnation
1 Mind Twist
1 Profane Command
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bitterblossom
1 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Bane of the Living
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Skinrender
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Arc Trail
1 Magma Jet
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Chandra Nalaar
1 Rolling Earthquake
1 Earthquake
1 Goblin Guide
1 Spikeshot Elder
1 Hellspark Elemental
1 Plated Geopede
1 Kargan Dragonlord
1 Manic Vandals
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Seige-Gang Commander
1 Inferno Titan
1 Rancor
1 Regrowth
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Plow Under
1 Hurricane
1 Treetop Village
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Eternal Witness
1 Vengevine
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Thrun the Last Troll
1 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Genesis
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Vindicate
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Figure of Destiny
1 Fire // Ice
1 Trygon Predator
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Masticore
1 Molten-Tail Masticore
1 Precursor Golem
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Uwezama's Jitte
1 Sword fo Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Coalition Relic
1 Pithing Needle
1 Anhk of Mishra
1 Winter Orb
1 Smokestack
1 Icy Manipulator
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Raging Ravine
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Maze of Ith
1 Library of Alexandria
185 cards in total: 20 of each colour, 10 gold (Ajani Vengeant steals the UW slot), 25 colourless, 30 lands
1 ccccssss
2 ccc
3 ccs
4 ss
5 cs
6 s
1 cssss
2 csss
3 cs
4 cccss
5 css
6 ss
2 css
3 ccsss
4 ccss
5 css
6 cc
1 ccs
2 cccsss
3 css
4 csss
5 cs
6 c
2 ccsss
3 ccs
4 ccs
5 ccss
6 c
1 eo
2 ceoo
3 eeee
4 cccoo
5 c
6 c
White breakdown
Aggro (10): Armageddon, Catastrophe, Isamaru, Student of Warfare, Soltari Monk, Soltari Priest, Mirror Entity, Savannah Lions, Elite Vanguard, Mirran Crusader (missing out: Hero of Bladehold, Ranger of Eos, Ajani Goldmane, Loam Lion, Steppe Lynx, )
Midrange (7): Gideon Jura, Swords to Plowshares, Elspeth, Knight Errant, Stoneforge Mystic, Oblivion Ring, Faith's Fetters, Enlightened Tutor, (missing out: Path to Exile, Kor Sanctifiers, Exalted Angel, Baneslayer Angel, Leonin Relic-Warder, )
Control (3): Wrath of God, Land Tax, Reveillark, (missing out: Moat, Balance, Austere Command)
Red Breakdown
Aggro (10): Goblin Guide, Kargan Dragonlord, Koth of the Hammer, Sulfuric Vortex, Lightning Bolt, Magma Jet, Smash to Smithereens, Spikeshot Elder, Hellspark Elemental, Plated Geopege (missing out: Keldon Marauders, Molten rain, Char, Fireblast)
Midrange (8): Seige-Gang Commander, Flametongue Kavu, Inferno Titan, Arc Trail, Pillage, Chandra Nalaar, Wheel of Fortune, Manic Vandals
Control (2): Rolling Earthquake, Earthquake (missing out: Pyroclasm, Crater Hellion)
your C/NC balance is different to mine.
And your missing Grafted Wargear, thats the best aggro equipment ever isnt it?
Ill put your list in the OP.
Do you want to MWS sometime this week, magicmerl?
Magic Work Station Winston-180 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=315755
I agree that Grafted Wargear *is* awesome. It's up in sword territory in terms of power level for an aggro deck.
I just struggled to get to 185 cards.
I guess I could always go to 190 cards.
Ok, adding 5 more lands gives me a 20 WUBRG, 10 Gold, 30 Colourless and 30 Land.
5 new colourless cards:
+ Grafted Wargear
+ Squee, Goblin Nabob
+ Tangle Wire
+ Scroll Rack
+ Black Vise
Plus a tweak of red and green:
- Smash to Smithereens
+ Avalanche Riders
- Rancor
+ Phantom Centaur
- Tezzeret the Seeker
+ Bribery
1 Student of Warfare
1 Savannah Lions
1 Elite Vanguard
1 Soltari Monk
1 Soltari Priest
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Mirror Entity
1 Reveillark
1 Land Tax
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Armageddon
1 Wrath of God
1 Gideon Jura
1 Catastrophe
1 Force of Will
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mana Drain
1 Counterspell
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Bribery
1 Treachery
1 Time Spiral
1 Upheaval
1 Enclave Cryptologist
1 Looter Il-Kor
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Glen-Elendra Archmage
1 Venser, Shaper Servant
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Mulldrifter
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Go for the Throat
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Necromancy
1 Damnation
1 Mind Twist
1 Profane Command
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bitterblossom
1 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Bane of the Living
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Skinrender
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Arc Trail
1 Magma Jet
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Chandra Nalaar
1 Rolling Earthquake
1 Earthquake
1 Goblin Guide
1 Spikeshot Elder
1 Hellspark Elemental
1 Plated Geopede
1 Kargan Dragonlord
1 Manic Vandals
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Seige-Gang Commander
1 Inferno Titan
1 Regrowth
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Plow Under
1 Hurricane
1 Treetop Village
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Eternal Witness
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Vengevine
1 Phantom Centaur
1 Thrun the Last Troll
1 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Genesis
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Vindicate
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Figure of Destiny
1 Fire // Ice
1 Trygon Predator
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Masticore
1 Molten-Tail Masticore
1 Precursor Golem
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Skullclamp
1 Uwezama's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Grafted Wargear
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Coalition Relic
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Black Vise
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scroll Rack
1 Anhk of Mishra
1 Winter Orb
1 Tangle Wire
1 Smokestack
1 Icy Manipulator
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Raging Ravine
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Maze of Ith
1 Library of Alexandria