How good do you expect the combo to be in Standard? I'm a huge fan of it, and it was one of my favorite combos in extended (via Pestermite ofc.) I've been trying to cram it into everything. It obviously fits in my Pyromancer Ascension list, but I've been toying with RUG lists, as well as splashing an Island in Lotus Cobra Valakut's SB for the combo as an alternate angle.
Thoughts?
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It's frighteningly good. U/r Pyromancer is probably where it will start, either as a straight swap for Pyromancer and Call to Mind or as a sideboard plan. But that's really not that efficient - you don't need all those instants and sorceries if you're focusing on the Evil Twins combo. (Deceiver + Twins? I thought it was clever.)
But if you focus only on the combo you leave yourself open to black disruption. I honestly think Evil Twins will be one of those things you play G1 when they can't expect it, and then board it out g2 if they're running a color that can give you serious trouble (say, blue or black). But against red, white, green, g1? They don't have a way to interact with you, at all.
I don't know if it'll be tier 1, but it will definitely cause some bawww threads at the FNM level.
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I think it will be great as a sideboard plan for Pyromancer's Ascenion kind of like throwing an audible becuase your opponent is not going to expect it.
But the combo is fairly powerful because the Exarch has Flash.
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Oh, they should totally expect it in PA SBs. But can they board optimally to counter-act Pyroascension AND the combo? Flashfreeze & naturalize are the only mutual hate, really.
I already saw a Grixis thread about it, and it looks promising.
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Torpor Orb kills this deck dead in the water. Could be a good surprise deck, but once it catches on, it will get hated out of the meta. I'll still wind up playing it because my favorite archetype is combo. What can I say, I'm a Johnny.
I've been playtesting this deck a lot, and it is quite good. It beats valakut by about two turns, because even if valakut gets turn 4 titan, they need 2 more turns to actually kill you and this deck goldfishes on turn 6 90% of the time and 4 70% of the time. And when you don't get the nut turn 4 draw, you often have mana open to counter their spells. Against caw-blade, they have to keep up mana leak every turn, and you can just slow down by one turn so you can go off with spell pierce backup.
Outside of the two combo cards and a bunch of dig (preordain, see beyond, foresee, tezzeret's gamble), you don't really need anything else, so the list is extremely flexible between maindeck burn for aggro decks, counterspells for protection, or into the roil to just take care of problem cards (topor orb).
Could someone please explain this combo to me? I don't quite understand how it "wins" at all.
I think pyro ascention is just such a weak deck. I mean, how on earth does it ever beat valakut / Rug? Those two decks have such inevitability, while pyro has...lots of burn spells...
1. Flash in the Exarch end of your opponents turn 3.
2. Play Splinter Twin turn 4 on the Exarch.
3. Tap the Exarch to have another Exarch enter the battlefield untapping the first. Repeat ad infinitum.
4. Attack with for infinity with an infinite number of Exarchs.
1) Put Splinter Twin on Exarch
2) Put in another exarch untapping the one with splinter twin
3) Repeat step 3 as many times as you like
4) ???
5) Profit
There are a small handful of SB transformations that make Pyro really strong against Valakut, and RUG isn't as bad a match-up as Valakut. Avenger & Garruk are probably the worst things RUG has to offer against it.
Things like...
Mark Of Mutiny + Teetering Peaks
Archive Trap + Trapmaker's Snare
Shape Anew combo
Deceiver + Splinter Twin
All can be SB'd for 6-7 (sometimes 8) slots.
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Pyromancer Ascension can pull off a game 1 win against alot of decks (with the exception of Valakut.) As such, I would much rather grind out a game 1 victory with PA, and then once they have all the hate in the world, simply go off on them.
The can leave Flashfreeze mana up, that's fine, because Deceiver is blue, and will tap a land, leaving them with only 1 mana up.
Vs. Valakut, they don't have enough reliable answers to the combo, so you rely on it both games 2 & 3.
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That's certainly a valid argument against my idea.
Isn't the idea to flash in the creature at end of opp's turn, then win on your turn though? If opponent isn't willing to tap out, you don't need to win by turn 4 do you? You can afford to wait until you have counter backup. (or have peeked at their hand, and know the coast is clear). Just my thinking. I may be 100% wrong.
Game two though, you'll definitely have the advantage in the sideboarding though.
I played against a version of this deck with my Suicide Black Deck and first game I lost but after I knew what I was playing i won g2 on t1 by despise + surgical extraction on his deceiver exarch and g3 i memoricide'd him for the win. It seems good but very fragile. And I do have to say his deck was not built that well.
If he had transformed into PA in Game 2 (or 3) it was over.
I love people that say if if if if if.
So here you go sir.
IF he was PA then I would have despise'd him t1 taken his ascension and then surgically extracted his deck apart. Completely destroying his entire game plan and proceeding to beat with a t4 10/10 flyer/trampler.
IF he was PA then I would have despise'd him t1 taken his ascension and then surgically extracted his deck apart. Completely destroying his entire game plan and proceeding to beat with a t4 10/10 flyer/trampler.
IF he was PA then I would have despise'd him t1 taken his ascension and then surgically extracted his deck apart. Completely destroying his entire game plan and proceeding to beat with a t4 10/10 flyer/trampler.
Haha, Suicide Black deck? Surgical Extraction? Stop playing bad cards/decks.
And Despise doesn't hit enchantments.
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I like that Exarch Twin uses 8 slots and the rest as support cards, so in the after g2 you swap those 8 for 4 Pyromancer (or is the reverse better?) and the same support cards are the combo pieces themselves for Pyromancer Ascension. G3 I think it'll be very interesting, since it'll become more of a mind game than magic itself.
It's interesting that it's 1/4 (so it dodges Lightning Bolt) and can tap down that pesky Argentum Armor / Sword if needed be, so it's not really a dead card by itself.
I played Splinter Twin + Pestermite for a bit in Extended. The combo is insane. Unfortunately, Fae was big and could easily play control games against you, and on the other side of the spectrum, Lightning Bolt easily disrupted the deck and was played in almost every other deck outside of Fae.
Now that the combo is in Standard, things get easier and... YOUR CREATURE IS A 1/4! The combo is consistent and does no longer die to the largest played Removal Spell in Standard. In other words, the entire meta will have to shift in order to accommodate combo decks.
Sadly, Patrick Chapin posted an article and I was hoping it would remain on the down-low for a while. I'm sure you can still get away with winning your Game Day, or Local FNMs, but I suspect Larger Events will be prepared a little more now.
I do like Patrick's approach with Pyromancer Ascension, but I don't think it's necessary. I believe playing some other type of End Game spells such as Inferno Titan, Koth, Jace TMS, Precursor Golem,...(the list goes on) would be more appropriate. Using Spell Pierce or Dispel seems like a better plan that would lead to more wins.
If you feel like winning your local events, keep everyone on their toes and play this combo, with or without Pyromancer Ascension.
How can you call it mono black suicide if it has in main deck surgical and despises? Aren't you supposed, in suicide, to play t1 lacerator?
On tumble magnet; I'm pretty sure it doesn't stop the combo. If you use it to answer the tapping of the exarch to put up a token, the cost is already paid, so you will be just tapping an already tapped permanent. Instead, if you target it before it's tapping, you can tap it in respose, so it will resolve first, and youre' screwed anyway.
You respond to Splinter Twin being cast and then remove the creature.
Thoughts?
But if you focus only on the combo you leave yourself open to black disruption. I honestly think Evil Twins will be one of those things you play G1 when they can't expect it, and then board it out g2 if they're running a color that can give you serious trouble (say, blue or black). But against red, white, green, g1? They don't have a way to interact with you, at all.
I don't know if it'll be tier 1, but it will definitely cause some bawww threads at the FNM level.
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But the combo is fairly powerful because the Exarch has Flash.
Tried to pull away, but now I'm Back At it
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I already saw a Grixis thread about it, and it looks promising.
It's only good against white decks (hawks and sfm) if that. It's good for titans, but they're not as relevant as they once were.
Outside of the two combo cards and a bunch of dig (preordain, see beyond, foresee, tezzeret's gamble), you don't really need anything else, so the list is extremely flexible between maindeck burn for aggro decks, counterspells for protection, or into the roil to just take care of problem cards (topor orb).
I think pyro ascention is just such a weak deck. I mean, how on earth does it ever beat valakut / Rug? Those two decks have such inevitability, while pyro has...lots of burn spells...
2. Play Splinter Twin turn 4 on the Exarch.
3. Tap the Exarch to have another Exarch enter the battlefield untapping the first. Repeat ad infinitum.
4. Attack with for infinity with an infinite number of Exarchs.
2) Put in another exarch untapping the one with splinter twin
3) Repeat step 3 as many times as you like
4) ???
5) Profit
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Things like...
Mark Of Mutiny + Teetering Peaks
Archive Trap + Trapmaker's Snare
Shape Anew combo
Deceiver + Splinter Twin
All can be SB'd for 6-7 (sometimes 8) slots.
The can leave Flashfreeze mana up, that's fine, because Deceiver is blue, and will tap a land, leaving them with only 1 mana up.
Vs. Valakut, they don't have enough reliable answers to the combo, so you rely on it both games 2 & 3.
Oh you mean to turn on all the doom blades and gftt and dismembers that are sure to pop up?
Isn't the idea to flash in the creature at end of opp's turn, then win on your turn though? If opponent isn't willing to tap out, you don't need to win by turn 4 do you? You can afford to wait until you have counter backup. (or have peeked at their hand, and know the coast is clear). Just my thinking. I may be 100% wrong.
Game two though, you'll definitely have the advantage in the sideboarding though.
I love people that say if if if if if.
So here you go sir.
IF he was PA then I would have despise'd him t1 taken his ascension and then surgically extracted his deck apart. Completely destroying his entire game plan and proceeding to beat with a t4 10/10 flyer/trampler.
Except that Despise can't target enchantments.
Haha, Suicide Black deck? Surgical Extraction? Stop playing bad cards/decks.
And Despise doesn't hit enchantments.
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It's interesting that it's 1/4 (so it dodges Lightning Bolt) and can tap down that pesky Argentum Armor / Sword if needed be, so it's not really a dead card by itself.
Q: How does Tumble Magnet screws the combo?
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Now that the combo is in Standard, things get easier and... YOUR CREATURE IS A 1/4! The combo is consistent and does no longer die to the largest played Removal Spell in Standard. In other words, the entire meta will have to shift in order to accommodate combo decks.
Sadly, Patrick Chapin posted an article and I was hoping it would remain on the down-low for a while. I'm sure you can still get away with winning your Game Day, or Local FNMs, but I suspect Larger Events will be prepared a little more now.
I do like Patrick's approach with Pyromancer Ascension, but I don't think it's necessary. I believe playing some other type of End Game spells such as Inferno Titan, Koth, Jace TMS, Precursor Golem,...(the list goes on) would be more appropriate. Using Spell Pierce or Dispel seems like a better plan that would lead to more wins.
If you feel like winning your local events, keep everyone on their toes and play this combo, with or without Pyromancer Ascension.
You can EoT tap the tumble magnet.
You respond to Splinter Twin being cast and then remove the creature.