This is the original BWG control deck of the format. There are plenty of hybrids in these colors today, and as such with Tarmogoyf enteringThe board control aspect is trimmed a bit in favor of disruption through land and hand destruction. The list below has been de-Goblinized, so that matchup is probably no longer favorable. But with the amount of decks that all look the same, Dirt, and all of the hybridized board control decks should continue to be able to deal with them.
Somebody on MWS told me that the deck "sux" and that Eternal Dragon and Sinkhole are unusable in the same deck. While he was clearly wrong, his claim does make the point that you must choose your lands carefully. When mana seems to not be tight, Dragons fetch Scrublands typically, and fetchlands get the Bayous (or Swamps). That strategy will keep you from running out of a type later on.
Will this poll be voted on by folks who have never played with or against the deck?
I mention this because I have noticed that it is extremely unpopular despite its stellar winning percentages.
Is it's ability to win even a consideration? That sounds like an odd question even as I type it, but I have found that some sites do not consider a deck's ability to win, only its PERCEIVED ability to win.
Well, getting a major top-8 is very much a problem. SapphireTri hit it there.
And until one comes to South Florida I will likely never be able to attend one anyway. Of course, if I lived in the N.E. United States, I could just attend a local event and that would do. Don't get me started on that.
The real trick would be to get folks to try Dirt out themsleves. I have always advocated that. But since that rarely seems to happen - despite the ease of just building a new deck on MWS or Apprentice and trying it - I am afraid people will just have to take a guess. Uggh.
This looks an awful lot like The Rock. Does it play that way?
Either way, how can we trust that it is as good as you claim? If you could manage to somehow prove the numbers you have posted, i would sign off on the deck, because the synergy is apparent. it is just occasionally hard to tell. I mean, control typically does so poorly against good aggro. Legacy is so full of aggro, how can any slow control deck like this compete?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Cynical Squirrel »
Now please, go back to blowing your cat and let the real people enjoy society.
OK, I borrowed Sinkholes and took it to the local tourney, though I could not get ahold of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. I didn't lose a match. So, needless to say, I am giving the thumbs up.
Rd 1: U/R aggro jank with Cloud of Fairies, Jitte, Flying Men, FOW, Fire/Ice, Lightning Bolt, etc. Is this Fish? I suppose so.
won 2-0, (1-0) - At the end of the second game, I flew in with a Dragon, while he had Jitte in play and only 2 Mishra's Factories and a Mountain (I killed and Hymned the blue lands). H eshowed me 3 Cloud of Fairies and a Flying Men in his hand.
Rd 2: Landstill: it was blue and white with both Eternal Dragon and Decree of Justice. At the end of both games, he did not have any useful cards in hand. I beat him down wth an Exalted Angel out of the board.
won 2-0, (2-0)
Rd 3: Pikula: Ouch
Game 1, I was down to 5 life facing a Nantucko Shade and a Hippie, when I ripped Funeral Charm to kill the Shade and STP for the Specter. That was late in the game. I eventualy got Life from the Loam, and it was smooth sailing.
Game 2, he Ritualed for a Duress and a Hymn. The Duress took my STP, and the Hymn took Bloodstained Mire and Scrubland. That left me with only a Wasteland in the opening hand. Turn two he ritualed again and Duressed my Living Wish and brought out a Hippie. hrmph. game
Game 3 I knew I had won in the opening grip. he dark Ritualed, Duressed my Life from the Loam, and played a withered Wretch but on my turn 2 I dredged it back up and held it. I Chainer's Edicted the Wretch. he actually got it removed with another withered Wretch, but I had already used it a couple of times, and I had way too many lands for him. He kept drawing Sinkholes and Vindicates, but so did I. And once i got an Angel in play it was soon over.
Finn, I thought you said this was a hard matchup. haha
won 2-1, (3-0)
Rd 4: Vial Goblins - were both undefeated, but I declined to draw. In both games, he had turn 1 Lackey, but I had a Funeral Charm. He draw garbage the rest of Game 1 and I eventually flew in with an Angel.
Game 2 was more interesting, I killed a lot of lands, but he had two Vials going. I was at 4 life when I finally drew, played and sacced Pernicious Deed for 3, killing everything he had, except the Ringleader. he hit me again the next turn, but I topdecked a Dragon to block the next attack. He played a Lackey, I drew Living Wish, fetched and played an Angel face down. he held his draw (I think it was a land) and did not attack. I topped a Vindicate for the Lackey, flipped the Angel on my turn and hit him for 9 twice in a row to win. he was really upset.
won 2-0, (4-0)
Top 4, UGR Threshold
No contest. He had no hand and only a Nimble Mongoose and 2 lands in play when I flew over it for the final 5 with a Dragon that just won't stay dead. That was gane 1.
Game 2, I kept his Werebear out with a Maze of Ith, until I Vindicated his Pithing Needle set to Pernicious Deed, which I already had in play. Then, I just kept moving ahead in card count until he had to commit a little dragon, so I blew the deed. A few plaincycled Eternal Dragons later and I was slamming in for 5 a turn.
won 2-0, (5-0)
Finals vs. RGSA
He had been watching me play against Threshold, and offered to split, but I again declined. We each won a game killing offeach other's land, and in game 3, I pulled 2 Duresses and both 2 Hymns in my opening hand with the means t use them. Turn 1 Duress yielded Survival, and by the end of my turn 3, he had nothing of use left in his hand or in play. I put out an Angel for 3, morphed her next turn, and began the long, slow kill. He played 2 Birds of Paradise, but they only prolonged the inevitable, as I continued kill off all other creatures with STP, Vindicate, and Edict.
won 2-1, (6-0)
Anybody know where I can score me some Tabernacles?
I like these results. How much worse would a budget version be? Without the Tabernacle, replace the Sinkholes with Choking Sands or Icequakes (obviously worse, but I happen to have them)?
Actually, before I got them, I was considering Rancid Earth, if I am remembering the card correctly. With Threshold, it will kill off annoying little critters while beating on a land. That could work well since Life from the Loam makes Threshold easy, and later in the game, the land destruction might not be as good as creature kill, anyway. The Tabernacle, however, I think is necessary. Against Gobbos, in particular, I was wishing I had some. There were times when he was sending out creatures from those pesky vials with only 1 land. Tabernacle keeps the Goblin player honest, requiring some lands in play, just to keep the creatures around.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Cynical Squirrel »
Now please, go back to blowing your cat and let the real people enjoy society.
I would say that land destruction as a strategy is greatly injured by the loss of Sinkhole. The deck loses a lot without it, and I am not sure it can compete. But Tabernacle, you should be able to by without for a while. If your Meta is hevy Goblins, you can not live without it, though, as it is almost always way better than Maze of Ith.
I noticed that Funeral Charm is instant speed discard. Can I make an opponent pitch his draw before he can use it?
I'm not sold on Living Wish. I am replacing it with Dark Ritual. And I am taking Cranial Extraction out of the sideboard for Engineered Plague.
BTW, I am having so much fun with this. My friend, Alex says that he expects to have a strong side against me for this weekend, but that he can not think of a single card that would be effective. That blows me away.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Cynical Squirrel »
Now please, go back to blowing your cat and let the real people enjoy society.
Hmm. I thought about this a few hours before typing this. Tempting Wurm is, well, tempting. Here's the problem, as I see it. For you to rid your opponent of lands in play and in hand takes some time. You need to cast Hymns and Sinkholes, etc. Yes, Puzzle, you mentioned that we could tone down the land destruction element, but resource denial is incomplete without killing off lands, so it has to stay. Anyway, you have to essentially set up. If it takes a few turns to set up, anyway, the low casting cost is not nearly as attractive. And the idea of your opponent getting to put their lands in play for free is ouchie, much less some threats to deal with. Here's another problem. The deck is about card economy, and its creatures are no different. Angels get 2 for 1 when they hit, and Dragons are just absurd in the long game. Tempting Wurm doesn't really do either of those things. Finally, as you mention, Pernicious Deed works well with high cost creatures, and the Wurm is not one of those.
I think that Tempting Wurm could very well work in a hand destruction deck, but this one seems to be off in a different direction.
Dark Confidant, I don't really know about. What if you topdeck a Dragon? I don't think he is possible without, as you say, removing Dragons and Angels.
Life from the Loam, I should mention, is occasionally the closest thing you have to a dead card. But, that means that the opponent is not f*&cking with your mana, and that means either he is playing Combo, and you have a good matchup even with the nearly dead cards, or playing pure Aggro, and you have a very good matchup even with nearly dead cards. Since mana starvation is the only reliable way I have encountered to defeat Dirt, I think the Loams have to be in the main. I have even recently re-included an extra one in the sideboard.
before i read this thread i was going to build a 1.5 gwb deck after seeing there success in typ2 my build was drasticaly different here it is tell me what you think
I'm not sold on Living Wish. I am replacing it with Dark Ritual. And I am taking Cranial Extraction out of the sideboard for Engineered Plague.
Well, if Goblins are a big part of your meta, I think Engineered Plague is a good plan. However if ther is a lot of Aggro (and not just Goblins), I would definitely go with Ghostly Prison instead. After seeing how difficult a time even the monred Goblins has with Tabernacle, I have to recommend the addition of even more mana denial. That sort of strategy makes Sinkhole a relevant spell against a deck it has no business impacting so hard.
Dark Ritual is anti card advantage. Not including it is a choice for me, but suit yourself. I'm sure a lot of people would agree with you, but it seems backwards. You have 3 colors, and BBB seems like too much.
As for taking cards out - Cranial Extraction is for the following specialty situations:
If you are not seeing those cards, you may be OK without it, but all the combo decks fear it too. Taking out Living Wish just seems dangerous to me, though. If you do that, you are down from 10 to 6 potential win conditions. Not to mention all the options, like Tabernacle and Withered Wretch you have for game 1. A deck that plays slow and controlling needs access to all that stuff.
I'm not surprised by your concerns about the mana base though. However, LftL still costs 2 mana to cast and doesn't really do much here, from your own admission. Don't you think they could simply be lands ? 1 Plains and 1 Forest for example, tweaking the fetches to dodge Pithing Needle (2 Windswept Heath + 2 Bloodstained Mire). 21 lands, 4 of which are Wastelands that you want to sac for LD and produce colorless, bears imho a high risk of mana screw. 19 lands + 4 Wastelands really seems a minimum to me.
This entire part of the deck, I consider open for debate. The mana base (including LftL, Living Wish, and Eternal Dragon) are MY solution to the question of how to run 3 colors with lots of spells that cost BB as well as Wastelands which produce colorless. I used Windswept Heath for a long time, and it had the advantage of being able to fetch any color land in the deck. But when I started seeing that the mana base was the deck's only weakness (and a big one), I had to re-examine it. I added in some Swamps and a Plains. Since I need to be able to fetch the Swamps, I needed a different fetchland. Enter Bloodstained Mire. This made the deck a little more complicated, though. Now Dragons fetch Scrubland and Mires fetch Bayou. That can be altered, but should be kept that way whenever possible. You have a limited supply of Plains and Swamps in the deck. Be careful.
Life from the Loam is not really dead, but against aggro, it does not further Dirt's short-term goals. This is primarily where 1 Forest and 1 Plains would be quite handy. But then all non-Goblin aggro is pretty much a bye as it is. And Goblins run Wasteland, Rishidan Port or both.
In most cases, though, LftL comes in quite handy. With Wasteland, it provides the dreaded recursion. Plus it provides card advantage, and most importantly, it allows me to fight against land destruction in the main. A deck like Pikula is less than 50-50 when I do not pull LftL, and almost a certain victory when it is in the opening grip. That makes a huge difference to me.
Vs. Pithing Needle, diversity is a good plan, though. Point taken.
-2 Bloodstained Mire
+2 Polluted Delta
Hah! Pull 2 of those early, and the opponent will be baffled by the green and white cards you play.
As I doubt you'll often reach 7 mana, I'd also suggest Diabolic Edict instead of Chainer's Edict. It can be relevant against Salvagers.
The Salvagers matchup is really good already, and the nine SB cards you bring in for games 2 and 3 are nails in its coffin already. Don't bother making any adjustments for it. And I have to say, that you get to seven mana nearly every game. That's the advantage of recurring Dragons and Life from the Loam.
Finn Life from the loam should never be a dead card , maybe including 2 of the onslaught cycling lands would benefit youas then Lftl becomes a draw engine. However I'm not sure the manabase can support those 2 lands.
Just an idea as I hate to see dead cards and if you just want to reply lands , crucible is usually better.
I cringe at the idea of putting more non-basic lands in the deck. I'm too cowardly to even test this.
I think Crucible is possible, but then it gets in the way of Pernicious Deed, and can be destroyed by other means. Some people may prefer it, and it should probably be tested by someone. But the only time I do not like seeing LftL in my hand is against pure Aggro and Combo, and Crucible would be atleast as bad in those cases.
Finally, I would like to add that using LftL in the way I have been doing is benefiting me in ways I would not have guessed (and I am assuming no one else here has). When I make use of it game 1, my opponents invariably bring in whatever graveyard hate they have. That is good since it is not the focus of the deck. Killing the graveyard has a few advantages against Dirt, but has never, not once hurt me to the point that I have even had to alter strategies, much less lead to losing the game. often, the Tormod's Crypt sits in play unused at the opponent's time of death.
This happens with a lot of things. Goblins and Threshold always side in Pithing Needles and call Pernicious Deed whether I have one in play or not. It's almost useless since I will just Vindicate it, and use the other 16 or so anti-creature spells until I do. And the popular Meddling Mage for STP makes me giggle. None of those strategies are effective. And that is what sideboards are full of these days. Awesome!
hey just a thought, i've been testing the deck and I really like it, but if you want to get some more people to take a look at it you ought to go to the stickied thread "top 5" in the legacy forums and put dirt on your top 5, maybe with a link to this thread. could get some more people to take a look at it.
I am happy to say that I again took first. Sweet! Next week, I expect to see more hate. Blood Moon rocked me in game 2 vs. Pedro's Penguins (Vial Goblins with Goblin Grenade), but I beat him despite it in game 3 when I Vindicated it immediately.
I have to say that the land supply seems really tight. It is seems to be a carefully chosen bunch. I would be complaining about it if LftL didn't save my a$$. But givan all that together, I am satisfied for now.
btw, I faced Burn in rd 2 and won! He foolishly held mountains, and ended up pithcing them to Gerard's Verdict late in game 1. It was sweet. However, I must say that he was holding 2 Price of Progress with only one land in play in game 3 when I killed him, Dragon style. I got lucky.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Cynical Squirrel »
Now please, go back to blowing your cat and let the real people enjoy society.
Kudzu, judging by your alterations, I am thinking that you have a creature-heavy metgame. With both Burn and Goblins running around, I am surprised you took out Cranial Extraction. You are taking big chances with Price of Progress imho. So how did the matches go? I think we all liked your last report.
Also, how did you like Maze of Ith? Recently, I am finding it just ehh. It is never my first or second Wish choice. It's just too fragile sometimes. The problem is that Tabernacle, they pay no matter what. Maze, they can kill it before combat and pound me. I'm thinking Eternal Witness instead. It can fetch up a kill spell to replace the Maze, and block all the while.
Has anyone else played this enough to have an opinion?
Actually, I don't think it is especially so. This past weekend, we had a big
turnout, so some of the decks I had not seen before, but here is what I played against.
Rd 1 vs. Salvager/Gamekeeper
Game 1, I was able to keep him away from getting up to four lands. He
eventually Dark Ritualed an Auriok Salvager after Duress and Cabal Therapy took both my Swords to Plowshares, but I ripped Chainer's Edict off the top. By that time, I already had a Dragon fetching lands, so it was over soon after.
Game 2, I brought in 2 Duress, 3 Cranial Extraction, and 3 Tormod's Crypt for some of the discard, and both Life from the Loam. It didn't matter thoug, as I got Pernicious Deed and plenty of mana to keep him from ever going off while I nipped at his life total with a Wished Withered Wretch. He had sided out Swords to Plowshares for more discard. He died with no non-land permanents and no graveyard. It was beautiful.
won 2-0, (1-0)
Rd 2 vs. UGR Threshold
Game 1, he got the better of me. Alex runs 4 Pithing Needles in the main, and had 2 in the opening hand. He put one on Eternal Dragon and one on Pernicious Deed. Well, I had 2 Dragons and a Deed in my opening hand, so that wasn't so good. After he countered Vindicate for a Needle, I was in trouble. Eventually, a Mongoose got the better of me.
Game 2, I took out the charms for Duress and a Crypt, and got an opening hand full of black. I knew it was a good sign. I kept him at 1 Island and an
unused fetchland for about 4 turns, while we traded cards. When he was at 1 card in hand, I played an Angel morphed. It resolved, and when I turned it up on my turn he scooped.
Game 3, I had 2 Wastelands in my opening grip. His first land put a Mongoose in play. I killed it the land. I tried to waste his second one as well, but he Brainstormed and then countered his Brainstorm with Daze. Wow. I knew land was an issue for him. I had Chainer's Edict for the Mongoose, but he countered with FoW. Eventually he got a Tropical Island out, and put out a Werebear. He countered plow on his eot, but I had Living Wish and Sinkhole. I Wished for The Tabernacle, played it, and Sinkholed his Island. He let the Werebear die.
I think I might have chosen the Mongoose. Anyway, he got me down to 5 with the Mongoose before I Vindicated his final land. Soon thereafter, I had enough to play a Dragon, and it was over shortly thereafter.
won 2-1 (2-0)
Rd 3 vs. Angel Stax
Game 1, I played Perniccous Deed on turn 3, and I got 4 of his permanents with it the following turn. I whacked him with a morphed Angel until I had 2 white in play to flip it. He scooped.
Game 2, I boarded in all the non-land non-creature items. He got me early with Wasteland recursion, but I had Life from the Loam. He was making it hard on me until I Vindicated the Crucible. I got off a Cranial, and called Angel. The next turn, he played Smokestack, and I cringed. I could have run time out, like I intended to, but Todd is my friend and we agreed to tie.
tied 1-1 (2-0-1)
Rd 4 vs. Zoo
He played Savannah Lion. I charmed it. He played Kird Ape. I cast Gerrard's Verdict. He played another Savannah Lion and a Watchwolf. I played Pernicious Deed. He hit me for another 5 and bolted me or something. At 10 life I cleaned the board with 5 cards in hand to his 2 cards and 2 lands. I Sinkholed one and on my next turn I Living wished up the Tabernacle again, reducing him to a really bad burn deck. Eventually, the Angel cleaned up the mess. Game two was essentially the same. Did I mention that creature decks die a hard death in this matchup?
won 2-0 (3-0-1)
Rd 5 vs. Goblins
Game 1 went really bad. Opening hand had Scubland, Wasteland and a Dragon in it, so I figured land would probably be OK. More importantly, I had Funeral Charm for the turn 1 Lackey threat. But I went first and he wastelanded my Scrubland. Then, naturally I did not draw a land for 4 or 5 turns.
Game 2 I had plenty of Goblin killers, and land. Plus, I brought in Ghostly Prison. I got a Ghostly Prison in the opening grip, and played it on turn 3. It was a long game, but eventually I got a Dragon out.
Game 3 I had him down to no hand and no creatures, but he had a lot of Mountains. He topdecked a Ringleader which got him, amongst other things, another Ringleader and Kiki Jiki. I draw Life from the Loam, land, land, Sinkhole. In those 4 turns, he killed me. Damned Goblins.
lost 1-2 (3-1-1)
top 8 vs. Goblins
Game 1 I got a really good hand - almost all black cards, and kept him to only a Piledriver for long enough for me to bring out an Angel face up. Did I mention that this deck also has no way to kill a face up Angel?
Game 2 took forever. He actually hit me with the early Lackey, but I got a Deed out shortly after. He Needled the Deed, I Vindicated the Needle. At 4 life, I popped the Deed, killing 5 Goblins. I Wished for an Angel, and my wish came true. 6 turns later, I had 18 Life and he had 0.
won 2-0 (4-1-1)
top 4 vs. Pikula
Game 1 went my way, with Life from the Loam in the opening hand. He predictibly Ritualed, Hymned and Duressed. He did not get my Bloodstained Mire, so I was happy. Despite taking 2 hits from a Specter, I prevailed, using Life from the Loam 3 times.
Game 2 and he again Rituals for Hymn and Duress. I can't believe this crap. Anyway, he got 2 lands with Hymn naturally. I eventually lost with only a Swamp in play.
Game 3 I sided in the Godless Shrine. We traded discard spells, but I got his lands where he got Dragons and Living Wish (offense). In short order, I had HIM to only a swamp. He Ritualed out a Shade and pumped it, but then, inexplicably, I charm it at eot. I am lucky that I got Chainer's Edict off the top of the deck. Answers, baby. Lots of 'em. Soon thereafter, I was playing a morphed Angel. I flipped it just after he landed a Specter. He seemed to think I would not be attacking. Oh, but he was wrong. He had Vindicate in his hand, but I kept him to only black mana all the way to the end.
won 2-1 (5-1-1)
finals vs. Rifter
Finn had said that this was an easy matchup, but I was looking at some bad cards in the main. Funeral Charm, Chainer's Edict and Swords to Plowshares take a long time to be any good.
Game 1 made me realize that he has even more dead cards. After keeping him to only white mana and plowing his Dragon that could fetch him a Plateau, he showed me a hand full of Pyroclasms and Lightning Rifts at his death via Withered Wretch and a Dragon.
Game 2 was just stupid. My opening hand was bad, but since we are both trying to play control, I hoped the Rift Damage I was taking early on would not be enough. It wasn't. I Cranial Extracted Dragons, and when I Vindicated the Rift in play, he was in need of a solution. He ran out of Cycle cards before he found another Rift, and I finally saw some offense. He plowed my Dragon, but I found another. He did get another Rift (as well as a Pithing Needle), but with no other cards in his hand. It wasn't long after that.
won 2-0 (6-1-1)
Conclusions
1. Maze of Ith comes out for next week.
2. Tabernacle and Ghostly Prison together owns Goblins.
3. Pithing Needle is useless against Dirt.
4. I am never playing another deck ever again.
I think this outstanding performance calls for a try at a primer finn. Eventhough i personally dont like decks that thrive on answers and then kill, this is truly a piece of art. The only thing im really missing though is some clear match-ups against any sort of (efficient) combo or enchantress. Those could get interesting, since enchantress is right up there for raw cardadvantage as this deck is for quality and raw card advantage, or im totally delusional here, but thats your call.
Kudzu, you may not remember me, but we dueled on MWS a few weeks ago. Well, I took your advice and have begun speaking my opinion.
Did you ppl read the rant Finn got into with some guy on Stacitygames about the Goblin matchup? Who is right?
Anyway. I have a lot of old cards, so I built this deck myself, and I am having loads of fun. My local meta is largely Rifter, Threshold, Goblins, and Landstill. Goblins and Deadguy Ale are both hard for me. The others are all easy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I don't hate working out. I hate working. I'm actually fine with the out.
Didnt see it Juan, simply because im not active there. Can you post a link for me? I would love to defend finn on this one. I didnt play the deck myself, but I like the ingenuity of it.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
Juan, you should not be having trouble with Goblins. Did you wish for the Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale? I began using the deck without it, and found the matchup far easier once I began wishing for it in most games.
Deadguy Ale can occasionally be hard. The trick is in the lands. You really want to side in the 3rd Life from the Loam. This card really hurts that deck (and this one for that matter). Just be mindful of Withered Wretches. The good news is that you only really need to use it once or twice to be in good shape.
And play smart. Your first land should always be a sacland if you have it. Always assume the your first land will be destroyed if you don't. I also like Swamp as the first land drop. Otherwise play a land you can live without, especially if you are holding something that will get you more lands.
When I speak to people about the deck, they can't believe there are only 20 in it. And I have read several posts by people who "know" that there is just no way to get the 7 lands necessary to play Dragon or to flashback Chainer's Edict. If you are playing the deck correctly, you are acutely aware of which lands you need in play and want elsewhere.
For example, try not to fetch Scrubland with saclands. Save them for Dragon recursion. Get only as many Dual lands in play as you truly need. Be aggressive about getting basic lands when you can afford to. Hold Bayou until you have Life from the Loam or Living Wish if the opponent is destroying land.
But imo, the match heavily favors Dirt. The Goblins player can not have those explosive turns because they are severely limited by their lack of resources. And if they are using both Ports and Wasteland, it is even worse. The players near me love using both, but they lose hard when they can't come up with enough red mana.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Cynical Squirrel »
Now please, go back to blowing your cat and let the real people enjoy society.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Living Wish
2 Engineered Explosives
Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Dragon
1 Savannah
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Godless Shrine
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Withered Wretch
1 Bane of the Living
1 Glowrider
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Exalted Angel
2 Leyline of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistence
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
Somebody on MWS told me that the deck "sux" and that Eternal Dragon and Sinkhole are unusable in the same deck. While he was clearly wrong, his claim does make the point that you must choose your lands carefully. When mana seems to not be tight, Dragons fetch Scrublands typically, and fetchlands get the Bayous (or Swamps). That strategy will keep you from running out of a type later on.
I mention this because I have noticed that it is extremely unpopular despite its stellar winning percentages.
Is it's ability to win even a consideration? That sounds like an odd question even as I type it, but I have found that some sites do not consider a deck's ability to win, only its PERCEIVED ability to win.
And no need for apology.
The problem of it getting a decent title is there is still a severe lack of legacy tournaments:(
And until one comes to South Florida I will likely never be able to attend one anyway. Of course, if I lived in the N.E. United States, I could just attend a local event and that would do. Don't get me started on that.
The real trick would be to get folks to try Dirt out themsleves. I have always advocated that. But since that rarely seems to happen - despite the ease of just building a new deck on MWS or Apprentice and trying it - I am afraid people will just have to take a guess. Uggh.
Enter the perceived ability to win.
Either way, how can we trust that it is as good as you claim? If you could manage to somehow prove the numbers you have posted, i would sign off on the deck, because the synergy is apparent. it is just occasionally hard to tell. I mean, control typically does so poorly against good aggro. Legacy is so full of aggro, how can any slow control deck like this compete?
Rd 1: U/R aggro jank with Cloud of Fairies, Jitte, Flying Men, FOW, Fire/Ice, Lightning Bolt, etc. Is this Fish? I suppose so.
won 2-0, (1-0) - At the end of the second game, I flew in with a Dragon, while he had Jitte in play and only 2 Mishra's Factories and a Mountain (I killed and Hymned the blue lands). H eshowed me 3 Cloud of Fairies and a Flying Men in his hand.
Rd 2: Landstill: it was blue and white with both Eternal Dragon and Decree of Justice. At the end of both games, he did not have any useful cards in hand. I beat him down wth an Exalted Angel out of the board.
won 2-0, (2-0)
Rd 3: Pikula: Ouch
Game 1, I was down to 5 life facing a Nantucko Shade and a Hippie, when I ripped Funeral Charm to kill the Shade and STP for the Specter. That was late in the game. I eventualy got Life from the Loam, and it was smooth sailing.
Game 2, he Ritualed for a Duress and a Hymn. The Duress took my STP, and the Hymn took Bloodstained Mire and Scrubland. That left me with only a Wasteland in the opening hand. Turn two he ritualed again and Duressed my Living Wish and brought out a Hippie. hrmph. game
Game 3 I knew I had won in the opening grip. he dark Ritualed, Duressed my Life from the Loam, and played a withered Wretch but on my turn 2 I dredged it back up and held it. I Chainer's Edicted the Wretch. he actually got it removed with another withered Wretch, but I had already used it a couple of times, and I had way too many lands for him. He kept drawing Sinkholes and Vindicates, but so did I. And once i got an Angel in play it was soon over.
Finn, I thought you said this was a hard matchup. haha
won 2-1, (3-0)
Rd 4: Vial Goblins - were both undefeated, but I declined to draw. In both games, he had turn 1 Lackey, but I had a Funeral Charm. He draw garbage the rest of Game 1 and I eventually flew in with an Angel.
Game 2 was more interesting, I killed a lot of lands, but he had two Vials going. I was at 4 life when I finally drew, played and sacced Pernicious Deed for 3, killing everything he had, except the Ringleader. he hit me again the next turn, but I topdecked a Dragon to block the next attack. He played a Lackey, I drew Living Wish, fetched and played an Angel face down. he held his draw (I think it was a land) and did not attack. I topped a Vindicate for the Lackey, flipped the Angel on my turn and hit him for 9 twice in a row to win. he was really upset.
won 2-0, (4-0)
Top 4, UGR Threshold
No contest. He had no hand and only a Nimble Mongoose and 2 lands in play when I flew over it for the final 5 with a Dragon that just won't stay dead. That was gane 1.
Game 2, I kept his Werebear out with a Maze of Ith, until I Vindicated his Pithing Needle set to Pernicious Deed, which I already had in play. Then, I just kept moving ahead in card count until he had to commit a little dragon, so I blew the deed. A few plaincycled Eternal Dragons later and I was slamming in for 5 a turn.
won 2-0, (5-0)
Finals vs. RGSA
He had been watching me play against Threshold, and offered to split, but I again declined. We each won a game killing offeach other's land, and in game 3, I pulled 2 Duresses and both 2 Hymns in my opening hand with the means t use them. Turn 1 Duress yielded Survival, and by the end of my turn 3, he had nothing of use left in his hand or in play. I put out an Angel for 3, morphed her next turn, and began the long, slow kill. He played 2 Birds of Paradise, but they only prolonged the inevitable, as I continued kill off all other creatures with STP, Vindicate, and Edict.
won 2-1, (6-0)
Anybody know where I can score me some Tabernacles?
Trades
Articles
Winner of SSC 1 & ">3 & 6
You could try Ghostly Prison, though, or even Engineered Plague.
Thank God somebody else actually took this thing to a tournament though. It is so tiring to be showing results when no one will pay attention.
BTW, I finally faced off against Solidarity over the weekend, and I am happy to say that I feel it is going to be a good matchup.
I'm not sold on Living Wish. I am replacing it with Dark Ritual. And I am taking Cranial Extraction out of the sideboard for Engineered Plague.
BTW, I am having so much fun with this. My friend, Alex says that he expects to have a strong side against me for this weekend, but that he can not think of a single card that would be effective. That blows me away.
I think that Tempting Wurm could very well work in a hand destruction deck, but this one seems to be off in a different direction.
Dark Confidant, I don't really know about. What if you topdeck a Dragon? I don't think he is possible without, as you say, removing Dragons and Angels.
Life from the Loam, I should mention, is occasionally the closest thing you have to a dead card. But, that means that the opponent is not f*&cking with your mana, and that means either he is playing Combo, and you have a good matchup even with the nearly dead cards, or playing pure Aggro, and you have a very good matchup even with nearly dead cards. Since mana starvation is the only reliable way I have encountered to defeat Dirt, I think the Loams have to be in the main. I have even recently re-included an extra one in the sideboard.
4 duress
3 cabal therapy
destruction
4 vindicate
3 putrefy
3 pernicios deed
4 swords to plowshares
4 sinkhole
2 graveshell scarab
3 loxodon heiarch
3 eternal witness
1 genesis
4 sakura tribe elder
land
3 scrubland
4 bayou
3 savannah
4 forest
3 swamps
1 plains
4 wasteland
My decks:
Standard - MUC, Glittering Wish Control, Battle of Wits
Extended - White Rock, UW Control, Train Wreck
Legacy - SI, UbaStax, CounterSlivers
Vintage - Manaless Ichorid, Flash, Gush-a-Tog
Highlander - Burn, MUC
I test on MWS!
Well, if Goblins are a big part of your meta, I think Engineered Plague is a good plan. However if ther is a lot of Aggro (and not just Goblins), I would definitely go with Ghostly Prison instead. After seeing how difficult a time even the monred Goblins has with Tabernacle, I have to recommend the addition of even more mana denial. That sort of strategy makes Sinkhole a relevant spell against a deck it has no business impacting so hard.
Dark Ritual is anti card advantage. Not including it is a choice for me, but suit yourself. I'm sure a lot of people would agree with you, but it seems backwards. You have 3 colors, and BBB seems like too much.
As for taking cards out - Cranial Extraction is for the following specialty situations:
What my local meta is boarding in
Blood Moon
Price of Progress
Primal Order
hard matchups that REALLY need it
Stax
Solidarity
Illusions
If you are not seeing those cards, you may be OK without it, but all the combo decks fear it too. Taking out Living Wish just seems dangerous to me, though. If you do that, you are down from 10 to 6 potential win conditions. Not to mention all the options, like Tabernacle and Withered Wretch you have for game 1. A deck that plays slow and controlling needs access to all that stuff.
This entire part of the deck, I consider open for debate. The mana base (including LftL, Living Wish, and Eternal Dragon) are MY solution to the question of how to run 3 colors with lots of spells that cost BB as well as Wastelands which produce colorless. I used Windswept Heath for a long time, and it had the advantage of being able to fetch any color land in the deck. But when I started seeing that the mana base was the deck's only weakness (and a big one), I had to re-examine it. I added in some Swamps and a Plains. Since I need to be able to fetch the Swamps, I needed a different fetchland. Enter Bloodstained Mire. This made the deck a little more complicated, though. Now Dragons fetch Scrubland and Mires fetch Bayou. That can be altered, but should be kept that way whenever possible. You have a limited supply of Plains and Swamps in the deck. Be careful.
Life from the Loam is not really dead, but against aggro, it does not further Dirt's short-term goals. This is primarily where 1 Forest and 1 Plains would be quite handy. But then all non-Goblin aggro is pretty much a bye as it is. And Goblins run Wasteland, Rishidan Port or both.
In most cases, though, LftL comes in quite handy. With Wasteland, it provides the dreaded recursion. Plus it provides card advantage, and most importantly, it allows me to fight against land destruction in the main. A deck like Pikula is less than 50-50 when I do not pull LftL, and almost a certain victory when it is in the opening grip. That makes a huge difference to me.
Vs. Pithing Needle, diversity is a good plan, though. Point taken.
-2 Bloodstained Mire
+2 Polluted Delta
Hah! Pull 2 of those early, and the opponent will be baffled by the green and white cards you play.
The Salvagers matchup is really good already, and the nine SB cards you bring in for games 2 and 3 are nails in its coffin already. Don't bother making any adjustments for it. And I have to say, that you get to seven mana nearly every game. That's the advantage of recurring Dragons and Life from the Loam.
I cringe at the idea of putting more non-basic lands in the deck. I'm too cowardly to even test this.
I think Crucible is possible, but then it gets in the way of Pernicious Deed, and can be destroyed by other means. Some people may prefer it, and it should probably be tested by someone. But the only time I do not like seeing LftL in my hand is against pure Aggro and Combo, and Crucible would be atleast as bad in those cases.
Finally, I would like to add that using LftL in the way I have been doing is benefiting me in ways I would not have guessed (and I am assuming no one else here has). When I make use of it game 1, my opponents invariably bring in whatever graveyard hate they have. That is good since it is not the focus of the deck. Killing the graveyard has a few advantages against Dirt, but has never, not once hurt me to the point that I have even had to alter strategies, much less lead to losing the game. often, the Tormod's Crypt sits in play unused at the opponent's time of death.
This happens with a lot of things. Goblins and Threshold always side in Pithing Needles and call Pernicious Deed whether I have one in play or not. It's almost useless since I will just Vindicate it, and use the other 16 or so anti-creature spells until I do. And the popular Meddling Mage for STP makes me giggle. None of those strategies are effective. And that is what sideboards are full of these days. Awesome!
My decks:
Standard - MUC, Glittering Wish Control, Battle of Wits
Extended - White Rock, UW Control, Train Wreck
Legacy - SI, UbaStax, CounterSlivers
Vintage - Manaless Ichorid, Flash, Gush-a-Tog
Highlander - Burn, MUC
I test on MWS!
Deck
Spells
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Chainer's Edict
4 Vindicate
2 Gerard's Verdict
4 Funeral Charm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Life from the Loam
2 Living Wish
Creatures
4 Eternal Dragon
2 Exalted Angel
Land
1 Savannah
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Plains
Sideboard
3 Ghostly Prison
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Duress
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maze of Ith
1 Godless Shrine
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Withered Wretch
1 Exalted Angel
I am happy to say that I again took first. Sweet! Next week, I expect to see more hate. Blood Moon rocked me in game 2 vs. Pedro's Penguins (Vial Goblins with Goblin Grenade), but I beat him despite it in game 3 when I Vindicated it immediately.
I have to say that the land supply seems really tight. It is seems to be a carefully chosen bunch. I would be complaining about it if LftL didn't save my a$$. But givan all that together, I am satisfied for now.
btw, I faced Burn in rd 2 and won! He foolishly held mountains, and ended up pithcing them to Gerard's Verdict late in game 1. It was sweet. However, I must say that he was holding 2 Price of Progress with only one land in play in game 3 when I killed him, Dragon style. I got lucky.
Also, how did you like Maze of Ith? Recently, I am finding it just ehh. It is never my first or second Wish choice. It's just too fragile sometimes. The problem is that Tabernacle, they pay no matter what. Maze, they can kill it before combat and pound me. I'm thinking Eternal Witness instead. It can fetch up a kill spell to replace the Maze, and block all the while.
Has anyone else played this enough to have an opinion?
Actually, I don't think it is especially so. This past weekend, we had a big
turnout, so some of the decks I had not seen before, but here is what I played against.
Rd 1 vs. Salvager/Gamekeeper
Game 1, I was able to keep him away from getting up to four lands. He
eventually Dark Ritualed an Auriok Salvager after Duress and Cabal Therapy took both my Swords to Plowshares, but I ripped Chainer's Edict off the top. By that time, I already had a Dragon fetching lands, so it was over soon after.
Game 2, I brought in 2 Duress, 3 Cranial Extraction, and 3 Tormod's Crypt for some of the discard, and both Life from the Loam. It didn't matter thoug, as I got Pernicious Deed and plenty of mana to keep him from ever going off while I nipped at his life total with a Wished Withered Wretch. He had sided out Swords to Plowshares for more discard. He died with no non-land permanents and no graveyard. It was beautiful.
won 2-0, (1-0)
Rd 2 vs. UGR Threshold
Game 1, he got the better of me. Alex runs 4 Pithing Needles in the main, and had 2 in the opening hand. He put one on Eternal Dragon and one on Pernicious Deed. Well, I had 2 Dragons and a Deed in my opening hand, so that wasn't so good. After he countered Vindicate for a Needle, I was in trouble. Eventually, a Mongoose got the better of me.
Game 2, I took out the charms for Duress and a Crypt, and got an opening hand full of black. I knew it was a good sign. I kept him at 1 Island and an
unused fetchland for about 4 turns, while we traded cards. When he was at 1 card in hand, I played an Angel morphed. It resolved, and when I turned it up on my turn he scooped.
Game 3, I had 2 Wastelands in my opening grip. His first land put a Mongoose in play. I killed it the land. I tried to waste his second one as well, but he Brainstormed and then countered his Brainstorm with Daze. Wow. I knew land was an issue for him. I had Chainer's Edict for the Mongoose, but he countered with FoW. Eventually he got a Tropical Island out, and put out a Werebear. He countered plow on his eot, but I had Living Wish and Sinkhole. I Wished for The Tabernacle, played it, and Sinkholed his Island. He let the Werebear die.
I think I might have chosen the Mongoose. Anyway, he got me down to 5 with the Mongoose before I Vindicated his final land. Soon thereafter, I had enough to play a Dragon, and it was over shortly thereafter.
won 2-1 (2-0)
Rd 3 vs. Angel Stax
Game 1, I played Perniccous Deed on turn 3, and I got 4 of his permanents with it the following turn. I whacked him with a morphed Angel until I had 2 white in play to flip it. He scooped.
Game 2, I boarded in all the non-land non-creature items. He got me early with Wasteland recursion, but I had Life from the Loam. He was making it hard on me until I Vindicated the Crucible. I got off a Cranial, and called Angel. The next turn, he played Smokestack, and I cringed. I could have run time out, like I intended to, but Todd is my friend and we agreed to tie.
tied 1-1 (2-0-1)
Rd 4 vs. Zoo
He played Savannah Lion. I charmed it. He played Kird Ape. I cast Gerrard's Verdict. He played another Savannah Lion and a Watchwolf. I played Pernicious Deed. He hit me for another 5 and bolted me or something. At 10 life I cleaned the board with 5 cards in hand to his 2 cards and 2 lands. I Sinkholed one and on my next turn I Living wished up the Tabernacle again, reducing him to a really bad burn deck. Eventually, the Angel cleaned up the mess. Game two was essentially the same. Did I mention that creature decks die a hard death in this matchup?
won 2-0 (3-0-1)
Rd 5 vs. Goblins
Game 1 went really bad. Opening hand had Scubland, Wasteland and a Dragon in it, so I figured land would probably be OK. More importantly, I had Funeral Charm for the turn 1 Lackey threat. But I went first and he wastelanded my Scrubland. Then, naturally I did not draw a land for 4 or 5 turns.
Game 2 I had plenty of Goblin killers, and land. Plus, I brought in Ghostly Prison. I got a Ghostly Prison in the opening grip, and played it on turn 3. It was a long game, but eventually I got a Dragon out.
Game 3 I had him down to no hand and no creatures, but he had a lot of Mountains. He topdecked a Ringleader which got him, amongst other things, another Ringleader and Kiki Jiki. I draw Life from the Loam, land, land, Sinkhole. In those 4 turns, he killed me. Damned Goblins.
lost 1-2 (3-1-1)
top 8 vs. Goblins
Game 1 I got a really good hand - almost all black cards, and kept him to only a Piledriver for long enough for me to bring out an Angel face up. Did I mention that this deck also has no way to kill a face up Angel?
Game 2 took forever. He actually hit me with the early Lackey, but I got a Deed out shortly after. He Needled the Deed, I Vindicated the Needle. At 4 life, I popped the Deed, killing 5 Goblins. I Wished for an Angel, and my wish came true. 6 turns later, I had 18 Life and he had 0.
won 2-0 (4-1-1)
top 4 vs. Pikula
Game 1 went my way, with Life from the Loam in the opening hand. He predictibly Ritualed, Hymned and Duressed. He did not get my Bloodstained Mire, so I was happy. Despite taking 2 hits from a Specter, I prevailed, using Life from the Loam 3 times.
Game 2 and he again Rituals for Hymn and Duress. I can't believe this crap. Anyway, he got 2 lands with Hymn naturally. I eventually lost with only a Swamp in play.
Game 3 I sided in the Godless Shrine. We traded discard spells, but I got his lands where he got Dragons and Living Wish (offense). In short order, I had HIM to only a swamp. He Ritualed out a Shade and pumped it, but then, inexplicably, I charm it at eot. I am lucky that I got Chainer's Edict off the top of the deck. Answers, baby. Lots of 'em. Soon thereafter, I was playing a morphed Angel. I flipped it just after he landed a Specter. He seemed to think I would not be attacking. Oh, but he was wrong. He had Vindicate in his hand, but I kept him to only black mana all the way to the end.
won 2-1 (5-1-1)
finals vs. Rifter
Finn had said that this was an easy matchup, but I was looking at some bad cards in the main. Funeral Charm, Chainer's Edict and Swords to Plowshares take a long time to be any good.
Game 1 made me realize that he has even more dead cards. After keeping him to only white mana and plowing his Dragon that could fetch him a Plateau, he showed me a hand full of Pyroclasms and Lightning Rifts at his death via Withered Wretch and a Dragon.
Game 2 was just stupid. My opening hand was bad, but since we are both trying to play control, I hoped the Rift Damage I was taking early on would not be enough. It wasn't. I Cranial Extracted Dragons, and when I Vindicated the Rift in play, he was in need of a solution. He ran out of Cycle cards before he found another Rift, and I finally saw some offense. He plowed my Dragon, but I found another. He did get another Rift (as well as a Pithing Needle), but with no other cards in his hand. It wasn't long after that.
won 2-0 (6-1-1)
Conclusions
1. Maze of Ith comes out for next week.
2. Tabernacle and Ghostly Prison together owns Goblins.
3. Pithing Needle is useless against Dirt.
4. I am never playing another deck ever again.
Did you ppl read the rant Finn got into with some guy on Stacitygames about the Goblin matchup? Who is right?
Anyway. I have a lot of old cards, so I built this deck myself, and I am having loads of fun. My local meta is largely Rifter, Threshold, Goblins, and Landstill. Goblins and Deadguy Ale are both hard for me. The others are all easy.
Can someone tell me why Godless Shrine is in the sideboard?? I know you can wish for it, but.....
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
Deadguy Ale can occasionally be hard. The trick is in the lands. You really want to side in the 3rd Life from the Loam. This card really hurts that deck (and this one for that matter). Just be mindful of Withered Wretches. The good news is that you only really need to use it once or twice to be in good shape.
And play smart. Your first land should always be a sacland if you have it. Always assume the your first land will be destroyed if you don't. I also like Swamp as the first land drop. Otherwise play a land you can live without, especially if you are holding something that will get you more lands.
When I speak to people about the deck, they can't believe there are only 20 in it. And I have read several posts by people who "know" that there is just no way to get the 7 lands necessary to play Dragon or to flashback Chainer's Edict. If you are playing the deck correctly, you are acutely aware of which lands you need in play and want elsewhere.
For example, try not to fetch Scrubland with saclands. Save them for Dragon recursion. Get only as many Dual lands in play as you truly need. Be aggressive about getting basic lands when you can afford to. Hold Bayou until you have Life from the Loam or Living Wish if the opponent is destroying land.
Also, the dispute about Goblins is over. The admin closed it, but here is the link: http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=287259&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
But imo, the match heavily favors Dirt. The Goblins player can not have those explosive turns because they are severely limited by their lack of resources. And if they are using both Ports and Wasteland, it is even worse. The players near me love using both, but they lose hard when they can't come up with enough red mana.