I thought I would give Riku a shot, since he seems like a deck wherein a lot of shenanigans can occur. And I love shenanigans! (except infinite shenanigans)
Riku is very versatile, and there are several ways to build a deck around him, but here I'm focusing on a toolbox of "enters the battlefield" creatures, since creatures are more easily recurrable/reusable/tutorable than spells generally.
Okay, here we go. Sections are generally organized by CMC:
Glad to see you've got your own here! I'm flattered by the attention :). I believe it when you say cutting cards is the hardest part. I am getting better at it but man I know how tough it is and you have my sympathy.
Anyway since you asked for some feedback, here you go, before I go off the grid for the weekend:
I would advise against cutting Life from the Loam. It is insane when you are recurring fetchlands and cycling lands with it and with Riku you really want to be sure you are hitting those land drops. Conversely, if you are set on not running it, cut the ONS cycle lands. They are unnecessary without it.
Yavimaya Elder is much better, I believe, than Yavimaya Druid. Three cards are better than one. Unless of course you are nuts about forestwalk
All these ETB guys, categories and all, and no Fauna Shaman or Survival of the Fittest for you to find the one you need? I know the latter can cause budget concerns but the former should be within your reach quite easily.
I think having Lurking Predators AND Wild Pair might be too much. I'm not the expert on this though. Have you thought out your Wild Pair interactions and such? Using Wild Pair involves some time and effort getting a bunch of guys all with the same P/T sums and knowing ahead of time how one creature will get others. If you haven't put much thought into it, I suggest you just cut it and stick with Lurking Predators. At 35 creatures I believe you have the creature count so support that.
I think some of your card draw is questionable. I am not a fan of Overbeing of Myth nor Slithermuse, though I admit I have little experience with the latter. The overbeing has to stick around too long for you to benefit and you are going to get wrathed a lot when you bring 35 creatures to the table. At least the slithermuse can get you cards immediately, although I don't feel like he brings a lot to the table unless you're surrounded by blue players.
I see Ixidron is your one wrath. Do you think that is enough? I like to have at least three reset buttons in every deck.
I am down on Sower of Temptation these days. I know she has potential she never lives long enough it seems for you to do anything fun with the creature you get and you aren't playing enough sac outlets to make sure they don't get their guy back.
Once upon a time, Mold Shambler was really, really good. I don't think he's worth the 6 mana now though to do what he does. He is completely outclassed by Brutalizer Exarch and you'd be no worse off if you cut it. Besides, you can't pay the kicker when Riku or anything else copies him.
You may need a little bit more ramp to keep up with the high CMC going on here, especially if you are recasting these bad boys off Crystal Shard and such. You could consider artifact (Darksteel Ingot) or creature (Farhaven Elf, Bloom Tender) sources. One or two more pieces would go a long way I believe.
Once you add Venser, Shaper Savant, you always have to consider Riptide Laboratory. Not saying you need to have it but if you're cutting the ONS cyclers you will have room for a couple more colorless land slots.
The only other thing I'll bring up for now is that you will want to be careful of opening hands and instances where you have several redundant ETB abusing artifacts and not enough creatures to abuse it with. It shouldn't be a problem for you if you keep the right hands, but just remember all the cuteness in the world with these outlets is only enough to win if you are replaying devastating stuff like AoZ and friends.
I hope you found some of that helpful. It's late for me and I'm maybe missing some stuff but I'm sure there's plenty left on your cutting room floor you can consider for some of the stuff I suggested you could be without. I'm really glad you found my list something you could work with and I hope you inspire the same creativity in others. Enjoy and good luck!
I would advise against cutting Life from the Loam. It is insane when you are recurring fetchlands and cycling lands with it and with Riku you really want to be sure you are hitting those land drops. Conversely, if you are set on not running it, cut the ONS cycle lands. They are unnecessary without it.
I'm still trying to decide how I feel about this card. As a draw engine with the cycle lands, it seems unnecessary since we're in blue. Re-grabbing the fetches and Strip Mine sounds golden, but... I know it sounds stupid, but I hate milling myself with the dredge cost. It's completely a psychological thing, and I know it's worth the price, but I always seem to mill off something I really needed, lol.
I'm also thinking that if I'm worried about hitting my land drops, more rampers might be a better solution, since they're more effectively copied than LftL is (hopefully I won't ever have 6 lands in my grave).
Yavimaya Elder is much better, I believe, than Yavimaya Druid. Three cards are better than one. Unless of course you are nuts about forestwalk
I like Yavimya Elder, and I was loathe to cut him. I think I'll take out Slithermuse and put him in that spot. I think you're right about the Slithermuse's situational-ness.
All these ETB guys, categories and all, and no Fauna Shaman or Survival of the Fittest for you to find the one you need? I know the latter can cause budget concerns but the former should be within your reach quite easily.
Survival of the Fittest is already in there, Fauna Shaman is a great idea, especially in a toolbox deck like this, thanks for the reminder. I think I'll put her in the Wild Pair spot. As for the cost, I'm just putting the list together for now, and I'll get the deck together one piece at a time. I just want the best list for now.
I think having Lurking Predators AND Wild Pair might be too much. I'm not the expert on this though. Have you thought out your Wild Pair interactions and such? Using Wild Pair involves some time and effort getting a bunch of guys all with the same P/T sums and knowing ahead of time how one creature will get others. If you haven't put much thought into it, I suggest you just cut it and stick with Lurking Predators. At 35 creatures I believe you have the creature count so support that.
I like the idea of Wild Pair, but I feel like I need a spreadsheet in my hand while I play with it, lol. Your comment is enough to motivate me to cut it. I also feel like it would make my turns take like 5 minutes while I tried to figure it all out, lol.
I'm a bit skeptical about Lurking Predators, to be honest. This is a toolbox deck, and that card completely messes up my timing. What if my Phyrexian Ingestor is on the top and I want to save it? I think I'm going to cut it.
I think some of your card draw is questionable. I am not a fan of Overbeing of Myth nor Slithermuse, though I admit I have little experience with the latter. The overbeing has to stick around too long for you to benefit and you are going to get wrathed a lot when you bring 35 creatures to the table. At least the slithermuse can get you cards immediately, although I don't feel like he brings a lot to the table unless you're surrounded by blue players.
Yeah, you're probably right about both of those. Cut and cut. Not too many creatures are very good at drawing, I think I was trying to force the theme too hard there.
I see Ixidron is your one wrath. Do you think that is enough? I like to have at least three reset buttons in every deck.
Yeah... I wondered about that. I noticed you've got a few wraths on your list. Argh, what to cut though! More thought required. Evacuation seems on theme, but it's only a temporary solution that whatever it was that was bad in the first place. Better go with something more serious. I like your Oblivion Stone and Starstorm ideas.
I am down on Sower of Temptation these days. I know she has potential she never lives long enough it seems for you to do anything fun with the creature you get and you aren't playing enough sac outlets to make sure they don't get their guy back.
Yeah... the problem here is there isn't much creature removal in UGR. I could put more theft in, but control magic, et. al, don't really synergize with other cards in deck (plus I've already got a steal deck, lol) Red has burn, of course, but it's so weak in this format. I dunno... I totally see what you're saying, he is fragile, but I think I'll keep it for now and give it some thought while playtesting.
Once upon a time, Mold Shambler was really, really good. I don't think he's worth the 6 mana now though to do what he does. He is completely outclassed by Brutalizer Exarch and you'd be no worse off if you cut it. Besides, you can't pay the kicker when Riku or anything else copies him.
Yeah, I thought about the kicker cost problem. I was a bit scared to go down to only 4 removal cards, but maybe 4 is fine, especially with all the tutoring. That opens up a slot if I do that, yay!
You may need a little bit more ramp to keep up with the high CMC going on here, especially if you are recasting these bad boys off Crystal Shard and such. You could consider artifact (Darksteel Ingot) or creature (Farhaven Elf, Bloom Tender) sources. One or two more pieces would go a long way I believe.
I was thinking about the high CMC problem too, I decided to handle it by putting in a more ramp creatures. You don't think I have enough? I do like Bloom Tender. I did spot Seedguide Ash, he looked pretty cool as far as ramp goes.
This brings up a philosophical discussion - is ramping safer than mana dorks, since a lot of people hesitate to play mass land destruction in Commander? The effects of Wood Elves are still around long after they're gone, you know? But once Bloom Tender gets wrathed...
While we're on the subject of mana, I really want to put Vorinclex in the deck to help out with mana, but man... his second ability is so cutthroat. Ugh. Plus if he gets Bribery 'ed... that's a bad day.
Once you add Venser, Shaper Savant, you always have to consider Riptide Laboratory. Not saying you need to have it but if you're cutting the ONS cyclers you will have room for a couple more colorless land slots.
Ah yes, have to make room for that one, for shizzle. How could I forgotten that? (especially since I asked your opinion on it, lol) Also kind of makes me want to put back in Vendilion Clique.
The only other thing I'll bring up for now is that you will want to be careful of opening hands and instances where you have several redundant ETB abusing artifacts and not enough creatures to abuse it with. It shouldn't be a problem for you if you keep the right hands, but just remember all the cuteness in the world with these outlets is only enough to win if you are replaying devastating stuff like AoZ and friends.
That's a good thought, I'll keep that in mind. That would open up more slots if I cut one or two of them. Those are hard to cut though, since they are force multipliers, and each one is a bit subtly different; I really like that Tawnos's Coffin can be used as removal protection for my guys and as a mini O-ring against an opponent's creatures, and Birthing Pod is essentially just another tutor. I may have to playtest to find the right balance there.
Wow I can see you guys already kicked in some good discussion on the list. I will see what I can add to it.
The first thing I notice is that you have a very low basic land count considering you are at like 12 basics. I usually try to have more basics in case you run into Blood Moon effects or Ruination. Also, you have tons of comes into play tapped lands and lands that tap for only colorless mana which will hurt a bit. I would try to reduce the number of these lands to a minimum. If you increase your basic count to 16+ it becomes easier to use a lot of the green land ramping spells. Without a higher basic count though you will run into issues with green ramp and fetchlands where you will run out of basics very quickly.
Also, cut Minamo, School at Water's Edge for a basic. You don't need to tap Riku for much of anything so you would actually benefit more from a basic here as it will give you more to go fetch.
(consider) Solemn Simulacrum keep in mind that in a green deck you want to be ramping very quickly. While I like him as a creature, I often like to ramp before I am at 4 mana. I dont tend to put him in all that many decks that have green in it due to that.
(swap) Wood Elves I like them as they can go get a dual land but I dont think I would ever use them before Sakura-Tribe Elder. Being able to ramp on turn 2 is good acceleration. While I understand that it sort of sucks to eat your 1/1 creature to do so it is usually worth the faster ramp. I like him a lot more than things like Farseek as well due to the fact that later in the game you can get chump blocks out of them. Also if needed you can strap a sword to him and swing in. Anyways if you bring up your basic count I think this should turn into a tribe elder.
(consideration for swap) Yavimaya Dryad I guess the fact that it costs GG has always sort of annoyed me in a multicolored deck as it can hinder you in the early game. Due to this I often run Farhaven Elf instead. It is your call though. Fetching up dual lands is nice to have but the GG cost can hurt sometimes.
(exchange) Indrik Stomphowler -> Wickerbough Elder I guess this one is more of personal preferance than anything. I like having the option to save the removal for instant speed. Also copying a stomphowler can be tough if you are the only other one to have a target you waste an activation. The elder can save their removal which is nice. Also he can work well with persisting as he can remove his counter to destroy again.
(consideration to be cut) Tidespout Tyrant personally I dont like him too much because he needs other cards to enable him to be good. If you topdeck him without other things to do he sort of sucks. If you have to tap out to play him he sort of sucks. I see him more of a combo sort of guy who is really funny to execute in the middle of a divining top / future sight storm as you can bounce all your opponents stuff. Without that I sort of have a hard time giving him a spot in decks.
(cut) Caged Sun this card only gives you benefits for one color. It doesnt really seem appropriate to put into a 3 colored deck. It would be very difficult to benefit much from it. At its cost I dont see it worthwhile in this deck.
(cut) Mana Reflection just keep in mind that this is sort of a slow spell to drop. You dont have much ramping in your deck currently to get up to big mana. It is also a big target that you will need to mostly tap out to drop and has no interaction really with riku other than giving you more mana to copy things.
ADDS: Cultivate your commander costs 5 mana which makes for these 3 mana ramp spells perfect to drop him in a turn earlier. They are somewhat cheap to cast and when copied they net you +4 cards. They seem perfect for Riku. Kodama's Reach same as cultivate. Skyshroud Claim 2 lands into play untapped for 4 mana. Copied it gets you 4 land into play untapped for 6 mana. It seems like a very very powerful ramping card for this deck. While it is at 4 mana to cast which I dont like it seems like a powerhouse at ramping. Worth consideration at least.
The extra early game ramp should really help out. You have several big cards that need some fuel for them and I think the sorcery ramp will be a good addition.
The only other thing I'll bring up for now is that you will want to be careful of opening hands and instances where you have several redundant ETB abusing artifacts and not enough creatures to abuse it with. It shouldn't be a problem for you if you keep the right hands, but just remember all the cuteness in the world with these outlets is only enough to win if you are replaying devastating stuff like AoZ and friends.
Lol I actually had this game just the other day when playing Jenara. I opening handed a few lands, Skullclamp, Rings of Brighthearth, and Birthing Pod. I think I didnt shuffle well enough after doing some edits. Sadly I didnt draw like any creatures and Jenara kept getting killed before I could do anything with her. Watch out for these hands as they can kill you.
Bump again. I made some more big changes to the list with some recently purchased cards.
Most notably... I bought an Imperial Recruiter for myself as a present. (I know, I know - I'm crazy. But I'm going away for 6 months soon, and I just used all of my Magic allowance at once. :)). That card is so huge - it grabs any of the various effects you could want. I put Ixidron back in so the recruiter could grab it along with all the other cool stuff. Recruiter seriously needs to go in the next From the Vaults reprint. I can't believe he's an uncommon.
I also put 2 more fetchlands in, for use with the Crucible of Worlds. I think ISB is right about upping my basic land count; that's my next project. I did run out of forests to search for the other day, but the game was only a turn or two away from the end, so it didn't bug me too much at the time. I'm not sure what I'm going to cut rght now... maybe the Lorwyn filter lands.
I also removed Fabricate to put in Gamble. It's for searching out Survival of the Fittest mostly (but also for anything that Fabricate could search if I want it to). Fingers crossed about not pitching Survival into the yard after tutoring it up.
Swapped out the Indrik Stomphowler for a Wickerbough Elder. I decided that both work equally well with all the value engines, and the elder may actually prevent someone from putting something good on the board, which means I might stop more than one good card with my one card. Interesting prospect.
I changed Myr Battlesphere out for Magmatic Force. I can't stop thinking about this card and how amazing it is. 12 damage before you get to swing with him; it's like he has haste, and super-evasion. So I'll give him a try for a bit. Ideally all of my finishers would be green so I could say "surpise!" on turn 3 or 4 with a Natural Order, but green doesn't have an effect like this.
ISB, I've thought a lot about your advice. I'm still considering Sakura-Tribe Elder, but the fact that I can't get multiplied value out of him by feeding him to any of my engines is bothering me. I'll think about it some more. If I did put him in, it would probably be in the Solemn Simulacrum slot, even though giving up card draw makes me cry. My other problem is that he's only better than my other stuff if I draw him on turns 1-4 (before I cast Riku), then he's worse. Much worse. I'll happily take a Solemn on any turn of the game.
I appreciate your advice about putting in sorceries over dudes for ramping, but I have so many value engines in the deck for creatures, I just can't do it. I want to get the most out of them that I can. Just the other day I was bouncing Wood Elves up and down (via Sneak Attack and Cloudstone Curio)to make my Avenger of Zendikar tokens ridiculous. I wouldn't have been able to do that with a Cultivate. Nor can you cast Natural Order on a Cultivate. You can't Skullclamp or Genesis a Cultivate, or put a sword on one either. So for now... I gotta stick with creatures. I think their drawbacks (like the :symg::symg: on Yavimaya Dryad) are minimal enough. It hasn't bothered me yet.
The deck is soooo ridiculously fun, by the way. If you're reading this, and even thinking about trying out Riku, do it. He gets a lot of hate at my table, soaking up destruction and tuck spells, but the deck runs just fine without him. It just gets ridiculous when you do have him.
Playing this deck has changed my paradigm about Magic - I'm usually a control player and initially had Draining Whelk, a bunch of dedicated draw, and just generally control-ish stuff in the deck. Playing it now, I'm thinking that if I'm not tapping out every turn, I'm doing it wrong. So this has been a good experience for me.
It also amuses me, looking at the list now, and how nicely everything jives together and works so well, that I was originally thinking about cards like Slithermuse. Live and learn.
One more shout out to SuperSonik. You'll notice my list and his are like 10-15 cards apart. That's because he convinced me on most counts that what he was saying made sense, through patient discussion and a few PMs. Thanks for your help. :-D
Wow dude. Congrats? Hahahaha I don't know whether to blow a noisemaker or do a headdesk. Either way he will surely kick ass in your deck. I would have no trouble proxying one, come to think of it... it's not like his power level is off the charts. It's merely a good card, one of many in this game.
Good move. Why limit yourself to artifacts, right? And hey if you pitch your target... you're in green, the color with the most resources to get it right back. When you topdeck that Eternal Witness, you'll be glad it was in your yard and not in your library, right?
This is sound reasoning (not to mention stomphowler is just a worse slime). It's the same reason Seal of Primordium is always going to make it for me over Naturalize. I think most players, myself included, undervalue the benefits of laying a card on the table and saying "DEAL WITH IT". /glasses
I changed Myr Battlesphere out for Magmatic Force. I can't stop thinking about this card and how amazing it is. 12 damage before you get to swing with him; it's like he has haste, and super-evasion. So I'll give him a try for a bit.
Interested very much in hearing how you like this guy. I'd probably be so mad I couldn't kill an X/4 with it but in a few turns the controller has already taken 12-18 damage so maybe it's worth it? It does nuke a LOT of really fast and fragile generals and I think that's probably the best part. Though I fear the not-so-uncommon scenario where those low-toughness, low-costed generals may have already taken board control before this guy sticks.
I'm still considering Sakura-Tribe Elder, but the fact that I can't get multiplied value out of him by feeding him to any of my engines is bothering me.
Yes. Sadly, it's not a death trigger. Viridian Emissary is that card, but you need to be packing sac outlets to make sure he'd go off. I still think Solemn is unnecessary though. Yeah, he's a great card and all, but he's hardly something you're going to tutor for and frankly when you have access to all these colors, he's underwhelming as a pure value play when you could be making stronger plays for the same amount of mana. And since your general costs 5 mana, you're basically leapfrogging him with a 6-drop if you stay on curve (which you might not I guess). If you had plans to rez him a bunch of times or something he'd be more exciting. The elder is at least undercosted and efficient for what it does while being pitchable to survival, triggering Equilibrium, etc.
I gotta stick with creatures. I think their drawbacks (like the :symg::symg: on Yavimaya Dryad) are minimal enough. It hasn't bothered me yet.[/card]
The GG on Yavimaya Elder is pissing me off lately. I have a pretty robust manabase and he still gets stranded in my opener sometimes. I don't like drawing him late either. I don't know what that means for your deck though
One more shout out to SuperSonik. You'll notice my list and his are like 10-15 cards apart. That's because he convinced me on most counts that what he was saying made sense, through patient discussion and a few PMs. Thanks for your help. :-D
Very glad to be of help my friend. I have enjoyed our conversations. I am no super-awesome magic expert but I get the confidence to keep up the building from players like you. One of these days I'll get a new deck going and I'll be sure to bounce some ideas off of you.
Yeah... lol. I know, crazy like I said. My thought process was sort of like this though - every time I wanted a Duplicant, I thought, "hrmm... the recruiter could grab that for me if I had one." And the reverse was true too - every time I held Fauna Shaman, I thought, "hrmm... recruiter could go tap her on the shoulder if I needed her next game." So it was just like... half my cards caused me to think how they would interact with him, over and over again, and I finally broke down to my troll brain, lol. I still can't believe he's as much as he is, but I'm so stoked to have him in there.
The other thing is, I'm sure I'll be playing this deck for a very long time. This is an eternal format, and this deck is amazing to play. So if you cut the cost down into dollars/hour of enjoyment, it shouldn't take me too long to get my $/hr cost into the "equal to a movie" price range, which is kind of where my standard lies for how I spend my hobby money, and if I was reasonable with it (but... it is still crazy).
A funny thing is that now I sort of feel like I need to have a spreadsheet with me when I play the deck. I've now got tutors that grab creatures by color, power, and CMC. Lol.
The downside to having him in the deck is that I think I might have to double sleeve it now. And that's a bit annoying.
Interested very much in hearing how you like this guy... I fear the not-so-uncommon scenario where those low-toughness, low-costed generals may have already taken board control before this guy sticks.
Yeah... Magmatic Force does cost a lot, that's for shizzle. I'll try him for 5-10 or so games and see how often I can get him out, and how many opponents he nom noms. I'm still trying to find room for a Flash in the deck, but it's like every card is my child at this point though, haha. They're all... so useful! Cauldron of Souls might be a stepchild though; it's pretty expensive, and it can have a tendency to just sit there sometimes, not doing much. It's probably first on my short list right now.
I still think Solemn is unnecessary though.And since your general costs 5 mana, you're basically leapfrogging him with a 6-drop if you stay on curve (which you might not I guess).
I've had this thought too. Being CMC 4, right next to Riku at 5, makes him a little awkward that way with the leapfrog. Hrmmm. You and ISB are kind of starting to convince me here again, but I think I'll wait a bit longer. A few more games to see how it goes with the Solemn Golem. Sneak Attack and Birthing Pod were made to go with the Golem, you see. ;D
Very glad to be of help my friend. I have enjoyed our conversations. I am no super-awesome magic expert but I get the confidence to keep up the building from players like you. One of these days I'll get a new deck going and I'll be sure to bounce some ideas off of you.
Sounds good! I might be asking your viewpoint with a Teferi deck I'm working on here in the next week or so, if you don't mind too much... ;D
I've tried Magmatic Force, he's a giant magnet for hate I can tell you what. Every Upkeep blowing something up really urks your opponents. I loved the critter but decided he wasn't worth the hate.
I've always found warp world fun in Riku, but there is a fine line before fun shennanigans, and breaking games.
I've tried Magmatic Force, he's a giant magnet for hate I can tell you what. Every Upkeep blowing something up really urks your opponents. I loved the critter but decided he wasn't worth the hate.
I've always found warp world fun in Riku, but there is a fine line before fun shennanigans, and breaking games.
Yeah, this is definitely a concern. I've thought time and time again about Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, and I may eventually end up with him in that slot, but I've have never seen anyone untap with a praetor in the group I play with. They do draw way too much attention and send everyone into panic mode. This guy is probably in that category, but I just gotta try it out a few times, because I'm such a Timmy.
The "attracts attention" issue seems to be an issue with a lot of finishers, though. Avenger gets a bit of a pardon, because you pretty much have to wrath to deal with him. So, outside of using something like Inkwell Leviathan, are there any solutions to this problem? I don't know that there are, aside from cast and hope.
This may be a deck that doesn't need creatures in the "doesn't do anything else, it's only for beating" category, but like I said, I'm still figuring out this deck and tweaking.
I made enough changes I thought it warranted another bump. I've just been thinking the last few days (theorycrafting, if you will), and I think these changes are for the better.
Magmatic Force -> Bogardan Hellkite. This was a hard choice between this guy and Moldgraf Monstrosity. All my engines work with ETB stuff though, so I went with the Hellkite. I just don't think I'll get to untap with Magmatic.
Wormfang Drake -> Phantasmal Image. I like the idea of the Drake, and he's great when Riku is on the board. More often than not though, I'm running the deck without Riku, so I need a card that's good all the time. And when someone casts their Primeval, I know which one would rather have in hand.
Solemn Simulacrum -> Sakura-Tribe Elder. You win again, Sonik. You convinced me here. Even though I can't bounce the Elder for more value, I can Natural Order him. And he does let me cast Riku better than Solemn does. Either one works with Genesis and Riku..
Cauldron of Souls -> Erratic Portal. The 5 CMC on the Cauldron always killed me, since it's the same as Riku. Maybe I'll try it again some other time. And with the portal, I don't have to wait for my opponent to do something. Also it saves Riku from being tucked.
Mystic Snake -> Flash. Not sure I'll miss the snake really. I know I'm going to *love* Flash though. It's bonkers in this deck. I've been looking for a place for it for a while, glad I finally found one.
Magus of the Future -> Life From the Loam. These both provide card advantage, just in different ways. I thought Magus was a good candidate to remove, since I never tutored for him, 5 is expensive for a card that doesn't hit the board with a thud, and triple blue isn't always available.
Upped count of basic lands. More targets for the fetch lands, more resistant to things like Ruination or Back to Basics.
Added Wasteland and Ghost Quarter. As long as I've got the recurring land engines going, why not? These are a powerful addition to the deck. Also I've got a guy in my playgroup with a deck that taps Gaea's Cradle and Serra's Sanctum for like a million mana each turn, and that crap needs to stop like right now. :-D
Woodfall Primus -> Magmatic Force. Haha, I caved and put him back in. I... don't think I'll miss the removal really, I dunno. I'll see. If I ever want a big removal guy, I always go for either Terastodon or Kederekt L. Anyway, Mag Force made a lot of sense in this slot since now I've got sort of a "direct damage from creatures" theme going on, with the Inferno Titan, Bogardan Hellkite, and the Bloodfire Colossus. So this just completes the set. I really like this theme - I've got a ton of value out of the big red dudes in the last few games I've played. They do a lot even if the field is clogged with dudes, or there's a Moat in play or something like it.
Green Sun's Zenith -> Pattern of Rebirth. This was mainly because I removed two green upper end guys. Now I need to find red upper end guys. And I don't think Pattern will be all that bad. I can control sometimes when it triggers. Put it on a Sakura Tribe Elder or a Yavimaya Elder. Or something I'm about to Skullclamp, or hit with Inferno Titan's ability. So I do have a little bit of control over it. I think it will work out okay.
I've been seriously thinking about going Wickerbough Elder -> Trygon Predator. Trigon isn't an ETB guy, but he does have the potential to remove a whole slew of bad stuff. I've also thought about filling the slot with Root Greevil. Never heard of that card before, but I stumbled across it in a gatherer search. I'm also sad that Uktabi Kong isn't a real card, I'd throw that right in if it was.
Magmatic Force and Bloodfire Colossus are non-bos with your ETB theme and they are a huge amount of fat. I really don't like either of them. Bloodfire could easily be Caldera or Crater Hellion. I think Caldera is probably the better choice in a vacuum but a lot of x/4 generals in your meta could change that. Magmatic seems like a luxury you can live without to get leaner and meaner. I notice your critical 4-drop spot is a little lacking- Sower of Temptation or even Dungeon Geists or FTK could go well.
Erratic Portal is just a duplicate Crystal Shard. I don't think you need both. I'm gonna say Fact or Fiction is the way to go here. That spell is so ridiculously good I had to check your list twice to make sure you had omitted it. You could also play Fabricate, but you still have to find room for FoF IMO.
I don't really like Cloudstone Curio because it takes a little work to get it going and it's dead after a wrath. Where's your Chaos Warp or Beast Within? I would cut the Curio and Wickerbough for the two. It's ok to play noncreatures as good as those and they are great to copy too.
And call me crazy here but I am not hot on Keiga here. He is yet another non-bo with your ETB theme and he is completely cold to wrath effects. I would recommend Duplicant, Rampaging Baloths or Frost Titan here. Duplicant is just amazing and needs no explanation. Frosty is totally underrated and stops a ton of permanent-based threats. Rampaging Baloths get just stupid silly without an answer. Keiga can be pretty much ignored until a wrath, which is why I don't like him.
Interested to hear your defenses for these cards. Always a pleasure.
Magmatic Force and Bloodfire Colossus are non-bos with your ETB theme and they are a huge amount of fat. I really don't like either of them. Bloodfire could easily be Caldera or Crater Hellion. I think Caldera is probably the better choice in a vacuum but a lot of x/4 generals in your meta could change that. Magmatic seems like a luxury you can live without to get leaner and meaner. I notice your critical 4-drop spot is a little lacking- Sower of Temptation or even Dungeon Geists or FTK could go well.
Okay - so here's why I changed my deck around. I felt like the deck had a whole ton of answers for stuff, but just wasn't that threatening. Yes, dropping and copying a Primeval Titan is awesome. But it doesn't really win you that many games (by itself). Even a copied Terastodon is awesome, but... he's just "meh" as a closer (no evasion, doesn't get rid of blockers). The *only* dude I had in the deck that was a good, no kidding, finisher was Avenger of Zendikar. And after playing a bunch of games, I realized that he's not really the "insta-win" that people sometimes make him out to be. You have to spend a lot of energy making those tokens threatening, and protecting them until they are interesting. Once you get him down, you've got to put at least 3 lands on the board before you can say you've now got the upper hand and can take someone out. Does that make sense? The deck was just lacking reliable closers. Utility all day long, for all sorts of situations, but no solid game winners (save Rite or Replication - that's deadly on just about anything).
Okay - that's where these big red dudes come in. I played multiple games where I would finally get to a point where I had BANG thumped down, say, Woodfall Primus, and even copied him. Dream come true! everything is working perfectly - this what I built the deck for! I've ramped, solved problems, and now reached my top end! ...But the board was clogged with dudes, so I never got ahead or made much of a difference. These red guys are different. You have a Forcefield (yes, it's in my meta), or some other huge pillowfort? Eat my Bogardan Hellkite's ETB trigger 4 or 5 times (which actually happened). You've got a million tokens that are preventing Moldgraf Monstrosity from giving you a haymaker to the face? Let's Rite of ReplicationInferno Titan, and see where we are now (which I also did the other day).
See what I mean? These creatures give me things I didn't have before, and I can't see where I can these things anywhere else. They hit with a thud. Direct damage gets around all kinds of utility dudes, tokens, preventative crap, etc.
I DO see what you mean about some of these guys being nom-bos with the heavy ETB theme of the deck. Colossus doesn't interact in any way with Crystal Shard, or Erratic Portal. BUT - he does combo with all the other stuff in the deck that also abuses ETB stuff. How awesome is he on a Mimic Vat? Riku copies him all day long (which he did for me the other day). Flash, Chord of Calling, Pattern of Rebirth, Sneak Attack love this dude. When I summon him, he can bounce something else with Equilibrium or Cloudstone Curio. So yes, while not strictly an ETB guy, he benefits from a lot of the same assets. Same story with Magmatic Force - a lot of the same interactions there. Loves being cheated into play, or copied with Riku.
Oh, and I chose Bloodfire over Caldera Hellion because Bloodfire also damages players, and I was looking for another finisher, since I was removing Molfgraf Monstrosity.
As far as the cards you suggested... Sower of Temptation and Dungeon Geist... hrmm. I'm kind of with you when you said before that these are only temporary solutions. I'm not a big fan of giving someone back their Kozilek I just stole because they have removal for Sower. I like my answers to be a bit more permanent.
Erratic Portal is just a duplicate Crystal Shard. I don't think you need both. I'm gonna say Fact or Fiction is the way to go here. That spell is so ridiculously good I had to check your list twice to make sure you had omitted it. You could also play Fabricate, but you still have to find room for FoF IMO.
I *want* both of them in there! The ETB effects are powerful enough for me to be okay with having both in there. I've never drawn them both, but I'm always happy to see either one! Same story with Equilibrium. When I was first building this deck, and I was asking you questions about your build, and asked you why you didn't have more draw, you outlined several ways that your deck worked without a ton of dedicated draw. This is one where mine works pretty well without drawing. I don't need to draw into my next ramp spell if I've got a Wood Elf and a Crystal Shard on the board. I know I've backed off just a little bit from the *pure* ETB build I had in the past, (by adding Magmatic and Bloodfire, etc.), but I've got 34 creatures in the deck, and I think I count at least 26 of them that have ETB abilities that I'd love to use more than once. Or at the least, I can bounce and re-cast something for Riku to re-copy.
And Fact or Fiction... yes, good card. But - like I've always maintained with this deck... I'm trying really hard to keep my creature count as high as possible. All my engines rely on creatures and using and re-using them. I can tutor, equip, search, recur, bounce, cast, and re-cast creatures. I can't do any of those things with non-creatures. I can't hit Fact or Fiction with Natural Order. I can't give it a sword. Etc. I dunno... in my playtesting, I've not really very often been wanting for more draw, above what I have already. I'll keep it in mind. As an aside, I'm sure I would never use it as an instant, since I always tap out.
I don't really like Cloudstone Curio because it takes a little work to get it going and it's dead after a wrath. Where's your Chaos Warp or Beast Within? I would cut the Curio and Wickerbough for the two. It's ok to play noncreatures as good as those and they are great to copy too.
Again, creatures over spells with this build. More creatures = more value for all my engines and interactions. Even if they are good spells, I'd rather have it on a stick. I've made some concessions, like replaced my original Brutalizer Exarch with Wordly Tutor, since the mana difference is so significant.
Here's another good reason - tutorability. If I need to get rid of an artifact, I've got like 7 or 8 different ways I can tutor up one of my creatures for that. There are only 2 or 3 ways in these colors to tutor up the spells you mentioned. That's an enormous downside, if you ask me. I can get to my Acidic Slime/Gilded Drake much easier than you can get to your Beast Within.
As far as Cloudstone Curio... hrmm. As far as being "cold to wraths"... I suppose you do have a point. There aren't many wraths in my meta, first of all, an secondly... I don't feel like it takes that much to get going again after a wrath. It's just a free crystal shard, basically. More redundancy for ETB stuff. If it starts getting in the way, I can consider cutting it. It's worked fine in playtesting though. Especially when I had a Wood Elves/Avenger of Zendikar bounce/bounce going when I also had a Sneak Attack in play (all my friends were horrified at what I was doing for so little mana, haha - that was a great game). So it's worked for me well so far.
And call me crazy here but I am not hot on Keiga here. He is yet another non-bo with your ETB theme and he is completely cold to wrath effects. I would recommend Duplicant, Rampaging Baloths or Frost Titan here. Duplicant is just amazing and needs no explanation. Frosty is totally underrated and stops a ton of permanent-based threats. Rampaging Baloths get just stupid silly without an answer. Keiga can be pretty much ignored until a wrath, which is why I don't like him.
Interested to hear your defenses for these cards. Always a pleasure.
Keiga. Same statements as above regarding Magmatic and Bloodfire. He doesn't combo with Crystal Shard or Erratic Portal. But he works great with Flash, Birthing Pod, Sneak Attack, and loves be copied by Riku (which I did the other day to steal 2 dudes at once).
I do hear you on the Duplicant. I actually just had Duplicant in that slot, I just forgot to mention it in my changes above. BUT... after playing 4 games in a row, where Duplicant was just kind of not very impressive because he's terrible removal against generals (he doesn't get anything from exiling a general because he'll never imprint)... I was thinking about what else to put in that slot. I've also thought many times, like you put in your primer for Phyrexian Ingestor, that if he had some sort of evasion, he would be about 100x better.
I also like Keiga in my meta because I see a lot of Eldrazi running around (and like I said, not many wraths). And the owner will always point him somewhere else instead of at me. That way I have an Eldrazi kind of working for me, and I have a good creature (Keiga), instead of just a lame big creature with no evasion abilities (Duplicant after eating an Eldrazi). This is one of those changes though that I wasn't totally sure about. Duplicant can be a house if you can re-use him enough times with the engines. So I definitely have this on my "things to think about while play" list, about which one I would rather have when I draw Keiga.
Okay... did all that make sense? I'm interested to hear your thoughts on my master's thesis about these card changes.
This is still such an amazing and fun deck. Every time I copy something or cheat something into play, it's a riot. And of course every time I cast Kederket Leviathan or Ixidron, I have a big doofy grin on my face. :-D It's still my favorite to tutor them up in answer to a tough problem.
OK firstly we have to talk about Fact or Fiction. I don't care that it isn't a creature. It is worth losing a tiny bit of synergy for it. As an instant there is almost never a bad time to case it. It costs 4 and might be the best draw spell RUG can possibly play, what with yard interactions and regrowth effects, and that you can cast it pre- or post-Riku for great effect. If you copy it you are never going to run out of gas. It is just an MVP on all fronts and the minor quibble about it not being a creature is not a strong argument because it will draw you into several of them. I would at least cut the Curio because the Curio has the specific weakness of being essentially sorcery-speed only. And hell it's not like you're killing a Lurking Predators creature count because you aren't playing it. I'm telling you this card is just too good not to play and I will stick by that no matter what your creature count is.
Your justification for Bloodfire and Magmatic Force sounds like "I need finishers". I honestly wouldn't call either one of those finishers when you can be choosing Insurrection, Overwhelming Stampede, Rude Awakening, or even Comet Storm. They compare very poorly to them without some sort of combo and you know it. BUT- since you need creatures specifically... I guess that new green 5/5 with super-overrun attached will fit in here nicely, so that would settle one of them. My vote would be Magmatic since then you can keep the Bloodfire for sweeping. I'd also recommend the Stampede as it's just really really solid in this deck and will definitely blow people out who aren't expecting it. Copying it is just obscene.
You know... you COULD just run the Eldrazi yourself. Bouncing and replaying Kozilek or Ulamog will definitely get the job done
Actually you know what gives you a ton of reach that you aren't playing? Kessig Wolf Run. I see it's missing here and if there's a more consistent way to turn mana into damage when you're playing heavy on the creatures then I don't know about it.
On to Chaos Warp and Beast Within- I can see that if you are heavy into creatures then maybe you don't want to play these. I think you may be limiting yourself here considerably though. Tucking generals for 3 at instant speed is just insane. These cards are never dead. There are no creatures that can do this (Gomazoa lol?). And both are still copiable with Riku and tutorable via Mystical Tutor and Gamble. That's reason enough for me but if you really want to stay on theme then I suppose I can't stop you.
If Keiga is primarily an Eldrazi deterrant then I can see him working for you. He's a great card, I just don't like his performance in a more developed, wrath-happy meta.
I applaud you for staying so heavily with creatures. I feel like you could abuse this even more by cutting out more instants and sorceries for more guys on the lower end of the curve, (Spike Weaver, Sower, Fierce Empath, etc... btw where is your Fierce Empath? He is dopey good here and you can clamp him to boot!) and then run Lurking Predators. You have over 30 creatures now- if you got up to 35 or more and ran predators you would certainly not lack for finishing power because you will win very soon with that baby out. I have always wanted to run it because it's just so brutal but I never end up getting to the creature count of 35 or so where I'd really want to run it.
On to Chaos Warp and Beast Within- I can see that if you are heavy into creatures then maybe you don't want to play these. I think you may be limiting yourself here considerably though. Tucking generals for 3 at instant speed is just insane. These cards are never dead. There are no creatures that can do this (Gomazoa lol?). And both are still copiable with Riku and tutorable via Mystical Tutor and Gamble. That's reason enough for me but if you really want to stay on theme then I suppose I can't stop you.
Another plus for Chaos Warp, if you really wanted, if you have any way of fixing the top of your deck, you could always warp one of your own creatures that you've already gotten use out of to play a big beefy beater for just the cost of the warp, on top of copying it with Riku to get rid of something else. However, as SuperSonik said, if you want to stay on theme, then more power to you.
This deck seems to play a good bit like a more streamlined version of my Animar deck (see sig).
Some suggestions from my Animar deck that may work here: Momir Vig, Simic Visionary - Great creature tutoring to give you more potential to draw your answers, especially since you're running a creature-heavy deck. Unfortunately, he is the same CMC as your general. Garruk's Horde - Future Sight for your creatures. Some people don't like playing these type of cards because they don't like giving their opponents that kind of information, but you are already running Oracle of Mul Daya so why not be able to cast your creatures from there too? - Edit: I see your Magus of the Future, a less beefy, but more versatile version. Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir - I see you already have a Teferi deck, so I'm sure you know all about his power already. The color requirement can be rough for a tri-color deck, but the ability to give all of your creatures flash, and therefore not having to tap out on your own turn is a huge boon.
Any of Trusted Advisor/Oni of Wild Places/Stampeding Wildebeests - a free crystal shard effect during your upkeep for any color you choose it for. Animar, Soul of Elements - My general (who I switched out for Riku after seeing your deck just to give it a shot) and makes your beefy guys cheaper, letting you cast and bounce more per turn. With Cloudstone Curio and a couple of eldrazi, can go infinite. The protections are just icing on the cake for me.
These are all cards that have worked well for me, although you seem to be at a point where any cuts you make will require really powerful effects.
How is Myr Battlesphere working for you? I opened one in a booster, and just can't really seem to find what to do with it.
Also, how do you deal with a resolved Elesh Norn? He seems like he could do some damage to your board state, particularly your Riku although it does seem you run a lot of beefier than x/2 creatures.
I have to say, your deck is rather scary. I also play in a Wrath-light meta, so I understand where you come from with some of your card choices. I'll definitely be looking to this list and Supersonik's for ideas to fix mine as well, since I feel it could still use a lot of work.
Another plus for Chaos Warp, if you really wanted, if you have any way of fixing the top of your deck, you could always warp one of your own creatures that you've already gotten use out of to play a big beefy beater for just the cost of the warp, on top of copying it with Riku to get rid of something else.
Doesn't work :(. You have to shuffle the permanent in, then reveal, without anything allowed to happen in between.
Also, how do you deal with a resolved Elesh Norn? He seems like he could do some damage to your board state, particularly your Riku although it does seem you run a lot of beefier than x/2 creatures.
This is part of what I am getting at with some of these non-creatures. You can Ixidron her and Gilded Drake is the nuts, and you do have a couple clones, so there are some answers there. But Kederekt Leviathan and Bloodfire Colossus don't really get you out of that hole. This is where I'm thinking Duplicant, Blasphemous Act, Beast Within and Chaos Warp could strengthen the deck. Dealing with resolved non-legendary creatures can be a real weakness here.
OK firstly we have to talk about Fact or Fiction. I don't care that it isn't a creature. It is worth losing a tiny bit of synergy for it. As an instant there is almost never a bad time to case it. It costs 4 and might be the best draw spell RUG can possibly play, what with yard interactions and regrowth effects, and that you can cast it pre- or post-Riku for great effect. If you copy it you are never going to run out of gas. It is just an MVP on all fronts and the minor quibble about it not being a creature is not a strong argument because it will draw you into several of them. I would at least cut the Curio because the Curio has the specific weakness of being essentially sorcery-speed only. And hell it's not like you're killing a Lurking Predators creature count because you aren't playing it. I'm telling you this card is just too good not to play and I will stick by that no matter what your creature count is.
Curse you and your passion. I'll have to think about it more. The problem with going Cloud Curio -> Fact or Fiction is that I was thinking about putting that new blue blink card in that slot! I'll give it some more thought and think about all my options for maybe making room for it. I can see what you mean. I appreciate your thoughts, and you do have a habit of convincing me. This may be one of those times.
Your justification for Bloodfire and Magmatic Force sounds like "I need finishers". I honestly wouldn't call either one of those finishers when you can be choosing Insurrection, Overwhelming Stampede, Rude Awakening, or even Comet Storm. They compare very poorly to them without some sort of combo and you know it. BUT- since you need creatures specifically... I guess that new green 5/5 with super-overrun attached will fit in here nicely, so that would settle one of them. My vote would be Magmatic since then you can keep the Bloodfire for sweeping. I'd also recommend the Stampede as it's just really really solid in this deck and will definitely blow people out who aren't expecting it. Copying it is just obscene.
Yeah, you're right - it is a case of "I need a finisher". Insurrection though? Hrmm... it feels very weird to play it in a Riku deck. It doesn't synergize with anything. It is a good card though, and a great finisher. I could consider it. The biggest problem is though, with all of those you suggested actually - that I have no way to tutor for any of them when I'm ready to finish a game.
Also, most of the ones you mentioned are good in token builds. When I am at the end of a game, unless I have AoZ out, I usually only have maybe 4 or 5 dudes on the board at most. So I'm not totally sure Overrun type stuff is the way to go? I feel like it would be a gamble, since my deck isn't built to assure I have a lot dudes out, like Hornet Queen and Myr Battlesphere. Maybe with that new big dude - I've definitely been thinking about him. I can see slotting him in instead of Magmatic. Maybe I'll do that. More thought required on that one. I can tutor for him. He's even Natural Order-able!
If I was going to go the spell route for a finisher, I would probably consider Berserk before I thought about the overrun type spells. Since I typically have a flier out at the end-game (Sphinx of Uthuun, Bogardan Hellkite) that would benefit from a huge boost, especially if doubled by Riku (for 4x power). Berserk also is hilarious to use on an opponent's creature, attacking another opponent. :-D
You know... you COULD just run the Eldrazi yourself. Bouncing and replaying Kozilek or Ulamog will definitely get the job done
Hrmmm. I could. There is very little synergy with the Eldrazi and the other stuff in my deck though. They're too big to summon with Birthing Pod and Chord of Calling though. Natural Order doesn't work on them. I can't double them with Riku. So... I don't think I'll go that route. Plus I already play them in my Teferi deck, and I already feel guilty about annihilating people's stuff in that deck. I don't need guilt issues in two decks, haha. ;-D
Actually you know what gives you a ton of reach that you aren't playing? Kessig Wolf Run. I see it's missing here and if there's a more consistent way to turn mana into damage when you're playing heavy on the creatures then I don't know about it.
/facepalm. I don't know how I missed that. It's totally going in. I'll find a spot for it. Thanks for catching that.
On to Chaos Warp and Beast Within- I can see that if you are heavy into creatures then maybe you don't want to play these. I think you may be limiting yourself here considerably though. Tucking generals for 3 at instant speed is just insane. These cards are never dead. There are no creatures that can do this (Gomazoa lol?). And both are still copiable with Riku and tutorable via Mystical Tutor and Gamble. That's reason enough for me but if you really want to stay on theme then I suppose I can't stop you.
I've found that with problem creatures, especially generals, Gilded Drake and Ixidron pretty well take care of them for me. Usually for quite a few turns, if not most of the game. I've been really happy with both of them. So I'm not as worried about tuck effects lately. Chaos Warp would be nice to have to get rid of problem enchantments, but again... I can't tutor for it if I really need it.
If Keiga is primarily an Eldrazi deterrant then I can see him working for you. He's a great card, I just don't like his performance in a more developed, wrath-happy meta.
He's also a good beater general deterrent. No one wants to send their Thraximundar or their Rafiq into him, either, both of which are in my meta. So... I do get value out of him in a lot of different ways. I always keep in mind whether or not I would rather have him or the Duplicant, and so far I'm still leaning toward Keiga for now. If I start to see more wraths, I might change my mind. The point about Elesh Norn is a pretty good one, I hadn't thought about that case. I don't see her much in my meta, I'll give it more thought. Your strong feelings about Duplicant may be tilting me back that way - but I'm telling you... it's so disappointing to spend 6 mana on a vanilla 2/4 when you remove a general. Maybe I just need to suck it up, haha. The removal's really the point in the first place, right?
I applaud you for staying so heavily with creatures. I feel like you could abuse this even more by cutting out more instants and sorceries for more guys on the lower end of the curve, (Spike Weaver, Sower, Fierce Empath, etc... btw where is your Fierce Empath? He is dopey good here and you can clamp him to boot!) and then run Lurking Predators. You have over 30 creatures now- if you got up to 35 or more and ran predators you would certainly not lack for finishing power because you will win very soon with that baby out. I have always wanted to run it because it's just so brutal but I never end up getting to the creature count of 35 or so where I'd really want to run it.
I feel like the instants and sorceries I do have in there are the ones I can't possibly go without, haha, so I don't know about cutting them. I struggled with all of them, wanting to cut them, but had a hard time doing it. A lot of them are either REALLY good effects (Regrowth), or stuff that just isn't available on a creature (Rite of Replication, Gamble). I could consider taking some of them out for more lower end creatures, especially if I do go with Lurking Predators. The problem with Lurking Predators is that this is a toolbox deck, and I'm always afraid the wrong thing will pop up when I don't need it. I guess you always have the option of moving it to the bottom of the yard. I'll think about it more. It's not a bad idea.
And Fierce Empath... I probably should look harder for a slot for him. It was just one of those "didn't have room" for him things. There are several like that, like Elvish Piper! I keep trying to find a spot for her too! I'll reconsider, especially now that I feel like I need more ways to pull out the big red guys.
Thanks, as always, for your thoughts.
Oh, and Dae57 - I think you confused the list I had as "things I considered putting in the deck", as actually my deck. Since you mentioned Magus of the Future and Myr Battlesphere. I don't have those in the deck right now. I did, but took them both out. I'll get to your thoughts later. I'm in Afghanistan right now, 8.5 hours ahead, and it's reaaaaly late here, so I'm off to bed. I'll answer in the morning.
Yeah, you're right - it is a case of "I need a finisher". Insurrection though? Hrmm... it feels very weird to play it in a Riku deck. It doesn't synergize with anything. It is a good card though, and a great finisher. I could consider it. The biggest problem is though, with all of those you suggested actually - that I have no way to tutor for any of them when I'm ready to finish a game.
I was just making the point here that as far as finishers go sorceries and instants are really in another league compared to creatures in these colors, for the most part. The new green guy does compete a little better though and he will make sense for you for sure.
Berserk is so gross but I will never want to buy one unless its crazy beat up. Even then it is behind Maze of Ith, Force of Will, Mana Drain, and U/W duals on my list of cards I wish I had. I think if I had it I would play it.
As for Lurking Predators- with graveyard access like Green has there is almost never a bad time to get a creature for free from the top of your library. I wouldn't let that scare you off. Try it sometime. If you didn't get to copy it with Riku for mana reasons or whatever, you can always clone it later Or you can sac it to High Market, get it back with Genesis or Academy Ruins, and repeat. Stuff like that.
And finally Fierce Empath is WAY more effective than Elvish Piper. Piper will die the minute it is cast. Empath skips that part by putting the guy in your hand. I know it sounds wierd but a creature (or two!) in your hand is way less threatening once your opponents know what is (and know you can't slip it in for :symg:).
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary - I... hrmm. I don't think I even considered him in my build, I think I sort of forgot he was a card. I can see the appeal! My deck is very much a toolbox deck, that loves tutoring, that's for sure. But... man... he's 5 CMC, no immediate benefit from casting him, AND he's a legendary (and thus not copyable with Riku). That's a lot of strikes.
Garruk's Horde - I think this card is interesting, but I'd throw Magus of the Future back in before I'd consider this one. High CMC, no immediate benefit again. I don't mind giving my opponent's the extra info, it's definitely the high CMC part that bugs me.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir - I can see the appeal... in my Teferi deck I definitely scare the crap out of the whole table by playing Magic on other people's turns. Same strikes as Momir, though. No immediate benefit (he's an investment, in other words), legendary (not copyable), and 5 CMC again. Also triple blue.
Animar, Soul of Elements - I can see the appeal here too, since Riku is SO mana hungry, and loves any efficiencies he can get. The problem with running Animar as a non-general is that in my deck, he would go in the "beating" category, since he doesn't provide any utility. And if I draw him late, he's... kinda bad. As a general, he's amazing. Not a general, just... meh...
I *really* appreciate the suggestions though! If you have more, certainly keep them coming. I love to hear them, they make me re-think my card choices. I'll keep thinking about Momir and Teferi, they both provide powerful effects, even if they don't provide immediate benefits when they hit the board.
And Sonik... here are come more changes you've convinced me to make:
Okay, fine: I think we're going to go Keiga, The Tide Star -> Duplicant. I can see all of your logic here. And it is pretty sound logic. One of the MAIN things that makes me absolutely LOVE Duplicant, is that I can grab him with Imperial Recruiter. And Duplicant can be a house with all the bouncing, etc., in the deck, even if you don't necessarily get a very impressive creature at the end - big (maybe), with no evasion, but like I said... I probably just need to suck that up. The removal is really the point in the first place. Getting rid of something big and scary that needs a panic button is worth 6 mana.
Magmatic Force -> Craterhoof Behemoth. Sonik used logic! It was Super Effective! I really like cards that get me benefits right away. Dudes that, even if they don't survive a round around the table, it doesn't matter because I already got what I wanted from them. Behemoth fits this category very nicely, Magmatic doesn't necessarily. It's much more tutorable than Magmatic (Natural Order! BANG! POW!), and synergies much better with the rest of the deck (especially Avenger of Zendikar). I am a little worried that sometimes I won't have enough creatures on the field to make the best use out of him, but we'll address that in playtesting. I of course don't have to grab him every game.
Kessig Wolf Run -> ? Finding a spot for this. Hrmm. I don't often have a ton of creatures to get as amazing use out of Gaea's Cradle as a token deck does, but it seems criminal to pull that out. I've only used Yavimaya Hollow like once, I think, but that also seems criminal to pull out. I might... pull out... a basic Mountain?
Fierce Empath -> ?. More tutoring = deck is more awesome. Definitely need to find a place for this. I'm just trying to figure out what to cut. More thought required.
Cloudstone Curio -> Ghostly Flicker? This seems very logical. I think I need to think about it a bit more, though. It always bugs me when I bounce my Bogardan Hellkite and have to pay full price for him again, I want his effect on the cheap! This lets me have it. Also awesome that it doubles as removal protection! And flickering Gaea's Cradle so you can tap it again with a bunch of dudes on the board seems interesting. Hrmm. This card is going to "do good work", as Sonik says. Funny, I was just looking through the gatherer the other day to make sure blue didn't have something like this already, and I was disappointed. And here we have it! I was considering using Voyager Staff, but I like this better.
Fact or Fiction? Still thinking about this one. I was actually pondering taking out a creature to put this in, believe it or not. Still thinking. Some potential candidates:
-Sensei's Divining Top (I hate to cut this, especially since now I added all the fetches in, but I don't know if I would actually miss it all that much. I usually grab either Sol Ring or Skullclamp with Trinket Mage, so I don't usually see this in games anyway?)
-Lightning Greaves (I know, I know. I don't usually tutor for it, Godo grabs swords all day, so I don't often see it very many games anyway? That's my logic, anyway...)
-Chord of Calling (I hate to cut tutors! Maybe this is a good place for Fierce Empath to go instead. It is an expensive tutor, but it does put it right on the field!)
-Erratic Portal (I think this is what you would probably recommend. But... the whole entire deck would suffer, I think from cutting a force multiplier. Every card literally gets a little bit less useful when you cut an engine like that)
-Phyrexian Metamorph/Phantasmal Image (I hate to think about cutting one or the other. But I could. These are also *amazing* at general and big Eldrazi removal, so I really hate to remove that utility. Maybe taking out one wouldn't totally kill me)
-Bribery You know I'm digging deep if I'm even considering cutting this card, because I love it so much. It's not... essential for a win, and it doesn't synergize with much (Riku, that's it), but it's... hilarious. Every time, hah.
-Life From the Loam/Cruicible of Worlds (I hate to take these out too, since Riku is SO mana hungry - it's important to make the land drops. And these work SO well with the fetches and the Wasteland effects, it's crazy. But I could take the land engine down a notch to ensure I have more stuff in hand)
Man... so hard to find slots for things, because every card has been a complete superstar in one game or another. So much value in one deck. I really like these colors! So... any recommendations on which one? Or maybe one I didn't think of?
Firstly, about Dae's suggestions, they were all powerful cards but you were right to keep them out for now. The legendaries lack synergy and impact and the Horde is too slow IMO.
Kegia --> Duplicant: I FORGOT you play recruiter. Lucky skunk. This is a no brainer!!
Magmatic --> Craterfatty: I also think this is a no brainer, once this guy hits the market. Magmatic living for more than a turn just seems like magical Christmasland. Not gonna be a problem with the behemoth.
Kessig Wolf Run --> I'd actually go with cutting Wasteland or Tec Edge. You already have strip mine and P Tizzle to tutor for it. And with Crucible and Loam in the equation, duplicates are less effective. Which leads right to:
Island (or wasteland/Tec edge) --> Tolaria West. Lets you tutor for whatever land you need. I consider it invaluable. Getting cradle alone will pay back the mana investment fairly quickly and anything else you get, well, you probably needed it enough to offset the transmute cost right?
Fierce Empath --> Bogardan Hellkite/Pattern of Rebirth. I think the Hellkite is, for you, the weakest of three 8-drops. How many 8-drops do you want to be playing? I am less certain on the Enchantment but it sets you up for a nasty 2-for-1 if your guy gets bounced or STP'd and you know how I hate those. You are asking for a lot to go right for that to work out for you.
Curio --> Flicker: seems good to me. I can't wait to try this one myself.
FoF --> Loam/Crucible or Portal. I don't think you need both land recyclers, even though they are exceedingly good. I prefer to keep Crucible because it doesn't suck up a draw step to get more than one use out of it, but YMMV. If you have one then the other is more or less a dead card, unlike portal and shard where having two just means twice the shenanigans. And trust me when I say FoF will more than pull its weight in this spot. For a lesser card I would say to keep both but making room for FoF is a noble cause to give one of the two the boot. Do you really like playing both here?
Wickerbough vs Trygon? I think I actually don't like either one of these. Wickerbough has no special synergy with the deck and -1/-1 counters, and Trygon is great early but just terrible late game. I would try Ingot Chewer or Manic Vandal or Viridian Emissary in this slot. The latter two are tutorable with Recruiter too :-). Actually I would prefer Ancient Grudge but you are not crazy about non-creatures and I totally understand that.
Anyway you ought to see some positive impact there with those changes, or at least the ones you enact. What do you think?
Myself, I've been thinking of cutting Top for Sylvan Library. Top is tutorable with Trinket Mage and is nearly impossible to kill, but the Library has free activations and can draw you 3 if you need it. Crazy? Maybe...
Island -> Tolaria West I'm interested to see how much I use this. 3 mana is a lot. But if you need it, you need it - like you said. Putting a land tutor in also makes me feel better about cutting the Tec. Edge, above.
Patten of Rebirth -> Fierce Empath. This is a good fit, and makes a lot of sense. Like you said, Pattern can be messed up terribly, and Empath has a lot of synergy with everything else. Thanks for the suggestion. And *gasp* I can't cut the Bogardan Hellkite! I've won my last 4 games off of him! He's carried swords, been Rite of Replicated, bounced, recast, Riku doubled, Kiki-Jiki doubled... all manner of shenanigans! And such great value every time!! Each time I've won a game off of him, I always think, "Sonik is a freaking genius for suggesting that I play this guy instead of Simic Sky Swallower or Inkwell Leviathan", the other dudes I was considering for that slot.
Life From the Loam -> Fact or Fiction. I think you and I look at duplicate functionality very differently. This has struck me over the course of our discussions. If something is very important to me, I want two (or more!) of them, so I can be sure I have it, especially in a deck of 99 singleton cards, especially where I can't tutor for the thing we're talking about (whether it's Crystal Shard/Erratic Portal, or Crucilble/Loam). The times when you would draw both of them would be very minimal, given the odds, and even then it's not always bad because if one thing got destroyed, you'd absolutely want to draw the other one! So I think we're on a different wavelength here, which I find very interesting. That being said, however - I'm going to make this change. I think it will work out just fine. I was always a *little* hesitant about the dredge thing anyway. So I'll keep the Crucible.
Wickerbough Elder discussion: I originally had Indrik Stomphowler in this slot, which *is* an ETB dude. But he costs 5 (Riku cost). Wickerbough costs 4, and he can actually deter multiple artifacts/echantments just by chilling on the board. He's not an ETB dude per se, but he costs the same amount to kill something as Indrik, and he gets his counter back if I bounce him (which is some synergy). Anyway - I'm hesitant to put any of those in that you suggested (although I do really like the ones you suggested (but did you really mean to suggest Viridian Emissary? That's a ramp dude, not a destroy stuff dude)), because they don't also kill enchantments, and I've seen some really nasty ones out there, and it worries me to cut more removal types (esp. after cutting Woodfall Primus). Hrmm. And... are you sure that Trygon is bad late game? What makes you say that? Because he doesn't have haste or an ETB? He's also tutorable with Imperial Recruiter.
I did a gatherer search just now, and here are some more possible candidates for the Wickerbough slot - i.e. dudes that kill both artifacts and enchantments: Viridian Zealot (not an ETB, but he's copiable with Riku/Kiki-Jiki), Sylvok Replica (same), or Nantuko Vigilante (I could bounce and re-use this - couldn't copy it for the effect, though). They all have some synergy with my engines, and the first two are tutorable with Recruiter (which Wickerbough isn't, so he probably needs to be replaced anyway). I like the Zealot's cost and extra tutorability - although keeping 2 mana open all the time... that part sucks. Do you think I'm overestimating the importance of enchantment removal? If so, I should probably just go with Manic Vandal. I wish I could put another Acidic Slime in! He's versatile, tutorable, Natural Order-able, deathtouch, etc. I dunno... all things considered... I'm really thinking I might go with the Trygon here. Tutortable with recruiter, cheap at 3 mana, likes being copied or stuck on a Mimic Vat. Natural Order-able if I want, hold swords like a champ...
Top for Sylvan Library... that's actually... really interesting. I rather like that, I think. Hmm. You're very right about how Sylvan can be much better in a lot of situations, since it can actually refill your hand at the cost of some life. Top does it much less effectively, and if it does do it, it messes up your next draw, which is a pretty big disadvantage. I'm liking this idea a lot. I think I'll probably end up doing it, I just need to think about it for a bit first. Bravo on the idea, I think it's a very powerful change. (like I said, I really don't ever tutor for top anyway) I can't believe Library only costs 2. Wow.
Oh! One more thought! Let's talk about Voyager Staff vs. Ghostly Flicker for a moment. Ghostly Flicker flickers 2 things, and is copiable with Riku (as long as you don't target the same 2 things, as you pointed out). Voyager Staff, however, is tutorable with Trinket Mage, recurrable with Academy Ruins, and can be used against an opponent's creature. So... almost seems like it could either way on that one, almost? Thoughts?
Fierce Empath will be awesome for you. I am always happy to draw that guy.
I wish I could make room for the Hellkite. He seems so awesome to abuse. He's like the PERFECT Flash target. I play Woodfall Primus now for my one 8-drop because of the persist interaction that just works amazingly with clones. If I end up adding more beaters of that size it'll either be that behemoth or the Hellkite. Thanks for making me feel smart for suggesting him
On the multiple functionality thing- you know what I realized, Intuition makes a big difference for me. I am able to tutor for pretty much any card I want with that. In the case of artifacts, I get Crucible, Academy and whatever artifact I want. So between that, Gamble, and the other tutors, plus regrowth effects, and I tend to gravitate towards singleton functionality. Without Intuition, however, your approach might be the better way to go after all.
Hahahahaha yeah, derp, I meant Viridian Zealot. Slip of the brain I guess heh heh Nice one covering for me there. That ETB artifact kill card spot could really be any of the guys we both brought up so don't lose sleep over that slot. As for predator being poor late game, I just believe opponents are much more likely to have blockers for him after the first few turns. And with only 2 power and no way to bust him through, I'm just not a fan. At least with someone like the Vandals, you get the effect without jumping through hoops and you can still get the effect more than once via Riku, bounce shenanigans, clones, etc. It just seems like he does the hard work for you in comparison to the predator. (btw if you want him to be Natural Orderable, try Uktabi Orangutan or Viridian Corrupter).
Voyager Staff: Being a fan of shiny new things though I'd probably like, to try out the blue instant because it's new and I'd like to see how it works. I think it's stupid underrated in the format though. Sharuum decks play it 100% of the time but it's great in U/X that have Academy Ruins.
I haven't sleeved up my full-power Riku deck in a little while because I've been teaching some guys how to play this format and I don't want to be all like RIKU SMASH YOUR PUNY DECK every game. It will be awesome to get around to it again though. I think I'm going to try my hand at Bruna next. I've been itching to try something new and she seems like a perfect Commander for the job.
I've thought about Intuition a bit, I remember you saying very fond things of it in your primer thread. It does seem like a very powerful card - it's pretty much a Demonic Tutor in this deck, with the right pieces surrounding it. My biggest problem with it is the throwing stuff in the graveyard part. I don't know why I have such a hangup about that, but for some reason I do. If I grabbed Sword of Feast and Famine, Academy Ruins, and Crucible of Worlds, you're guaranteed pretty much to get the sword either this turn or next turn, depending on your opponent's pick. But say they just hand you the sword... then your land recursion engine AND your artifact recursion engine are gone. There's always regrowth later, I guess, but... I dunno, maybe I should think about it more. It's a very powerful tutor. So if you're getting a creature, do you grab Regrowth, Eternal Witness, and the creature? Or same if you're using it to grab a land, I guess? Hrmm. Seems interesting. Too bad we can't play together a bit so I can see you use it a few times.
I think I'm going to go ahead and go Sensei's Divining Top -> Sylvan Library, by the way. I've been thinking about it a lot. I know it's sacrilege to cut the top, but it's super cool that the library can fill your hand for a bit of life. I think that can pull you out of some jams if you need it to.
I am having so much trouble deciding between Trygon Predator, Viridian Zealot, and Uktabi Orangutan. I've been going back and forth between them all day, thinking about it. Every time I make up my mind, I change it again. They each have their big merits and big drawbacks. I think I'm going to try out the Trygon and see how I like him. For now. My biggest reason for putting him there is that in my meta there are decks that are completely Enchantment based, and also decks that are completely artifact based (Karn). And having to bounce Acidic Slime to cast and recast him time and time again to get rid of problem stuff doesn't sound very mana efficient, when Trygon can do it for free if he has a clear path. This is one of those things where playtesting should be able to tell me the best answer, I think.
Oh! You should make the primer for Bruna!! Do it! Doooo eeeeeet! You know you want to! ;-D
Thanks for all the help and thoughts, by the way. Like I said, I appreciate it like... super much. And I know what you mean about this being a powerful deck! It has far, far exceeded my expectations from when I started putting it together. I thought it would be kinda funny, goofy, silly, etc., but... turns out it's a serious contender at the table usually. I'm often the guy who everyone else is responding to.
Riku is very versatile, and there are several ways to build a deck around him, but here I'm focusing on a toolbox of "enters the battlefield" creatures, since creatures are more easily recurrable/reusable/tutorable than spells generally.
Okay, here we go. Sections are generally organized by CMC:
1 Riku of Two Reflections
Ramp (5):
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Wood Elves
1 Yavimaya Dryad
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Primeval Titan
Protection (2):
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Elgaud Shieldmate
Non-creature removal (3):
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Acidic Slime
1 Terastodon
Creature removal (5):
1 Gilded Drake
1 Ixidron
1 Crater Hellion
1 Duplicant
1 Kederekt Leviathan
Tutoring (5):
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Trinket Mage
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Fierce Empath
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
Drawing (4):
1 Mulldrifter
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Sphinx of Uthuun
Re-use (6):
1 Nephalia Smuggler
1 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Body Double
1 Genesis
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Inferno Titan
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
Copying (3)
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Spells (12):
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Gamble
1 Flash
1 Cultivate
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Regrowth
1 Bribery
1 Rite of Replication
1 Intuition
1 Chord of Calling
1 Tooth and Nail
Enchantments (3):
1 Sylvan Library
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sneak Attack
ETB Artifacts (4):
1 Crystal Shard
1 Conjurer's Closet
1 Mimic Vat
1 Birthing Pod
Utility Artifacts (4):
1 Skullclamp
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sol Ring
Lands (38):
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Command Tower
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Yavimaya Hollow
1 Alchemist's Refuge
1 Winding Canyons
6 Forest
4 Island
3 Mountain
Building this deck is like Sophie's choice! So much good stuff!
Shout out to SuperSonik, I stole a few of his ideas. :-D
Cutthroat package:
Stuff I considered (and list of things that sometimes rotate in/out):
1 Spitting Image
Creature control
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Conquering Manticore
1 Keiga, the Tide Star
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Phyrexian Ingester
Theft
1 Blatant Thievery
Utility
1 Voyager Staff
1 Wormfang Drake
1 Ghostly Flicker
1 Elvish Piper
1 Through the Breach
Tutoring
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Fabricate
1 Sylvan Tutor
1 Primal Command
1 Natural Order
1 Wild Pair
1 Riptide Shapeshifter
1 Brutalizer Exarch
1 Pattern of Rebirth
1 Defense of the Heart
Ramping
1 Dawntreader Elk
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Yavimaya Granger
1 Ondu Giant
1 Quirion Trailblazer
1 Silverglade Elemental
1 Mana Reflection
1 Masked Admirers
1 Magus of the Future
1 Primordial Sage
1 Pelakka Wurm
Recursion
1 Life From the Loam
1 Sylvan Hierophant
1 Deadwood Treefolk
1 Moldgraf Monstrosity
1 Artisan of Kozilek
Enchantment
1 Equilibrium
1 Followed Footsteps
Artifacts
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Nim Deathmantle
1 Tawnos's Coffin
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Cauldron of Souls
1 Cloudstone Curio
1 Erratic Portal
Non-creature removal
1 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Trygon Predator
1 Root Greevil
1 Aura Thief
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Furnace Dragon
1 Mystic Snake
1 Voidmage Husher
1 Draining Whelk
Beating
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Simic Sky Swallower
1 Magmatic Force
1 Inkwell Leviathan
Anti-token
1 Caldera Hellion
1 Thunder Dragon
1 Bloodfire Colossus
1 Stormtide Leviathan
Land
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Vesuva
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Homeward Path
1 High Market
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Dryad Arbor
:symu::symr::symg:Riku of Two Reflections (ETB toolbox)
:symw::symb::symr:Kaalia of the Vast Reanimator
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Karona's Proliferating Allies
Teferi, mage of Zhalfir
Anyway since you asked for some feedback, here you go, before I go off the grid for the weekend:
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I would advise against cutting Life from the Loam. It is insane when you are recurring fetchlands and cycling lands with it and with Riku you really want to be sure you are hitting those land drops. Conversely, if you are set on not running it, cut the ONS cycle lands. They are unnecessary without it.
Yavimaya Elder is much better, I believe, than Yavimaya Druid. Three cards are better than one. Unless of course you are nuts about forestwalk
All these ETB guys, categories and all, and no Fauna Shaman or Survival of the Fittest for you to find the one you need? I know the latter can cause budget concerns but the former should be within your reach quite easily.
I think having Lurking Predators AND Wild Pair might be too much. I'm not the expert on this though. Have you thought out your Wild Pair interactions and such? Using Wild Pair involves some time and effort getting a bunch of guys all with the same P/T sums and knowing ahead of time how one creature will get others. If you haven't put much thought into it, I suggest you just cut it and stick with Lurking Predators. At 35 creatures I believe you have the creature count so support that.
I think some of your card draw is questionable. I am not a fan of Overbeing of Myth nor Slithermuse, though I admit I have little experience with the latter. The overbeing has to stick around too long for you to benefit and you are going to get wrathed a lot when you bring 35 creatures to the table. At least the slithermuse can get you cards immediately, although I don't feel like he brings a lot to the table unless you're surrounded by blue players.
I see Ixidron is your one wrath. Do you think that is enough? I like to have at least three reset buttons in every deck.
I am down on Sower of Temptation these days. I know she has potential she never lives long enough it seems for you to do anything fun with the creature you get and you aren't playing enough sac outlets to make sure they don't get their guy back.
Once upon a time, Mold Shambler was really, really good. I don't think he's worth the 6 mana now though to do what he does. He is completely outclassed by Brutalizer Exarch and you'd be no worse off if you cut it. Besides, you can't pay the kicker when Riku or anything else copies him.
You may need a little bit more ramp to keep up with the high CMC going on here, especially if you are recasting these bad boys off Crystal Shard and such. You could consider artifact (Darksteel Ingot) or creature (Farhaven Elf, Bloom Tender) sources. One or two more pieces would go a long way I believe.
Once you add Venser, Shaper Savant, you always have to consider Riptide Laboratory. Not saying you need to have it but if you're cutting the ONS cyclers you will have room for a couple more colorless land slots.
The only other thing I'll bring up for now is that you will want to be careful of opening hands and instances where you have several redundant ETB abusing artifacts and not enough creatures to abuse it with. It shouldn't be a problem for you if you keep the right hands, but just remember all the cuteness in the world with these outlets is only enough to win if you are replaying devastating stuff like AoZ and friends.
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I hope you found some of that helpful. It's late for me and I'm maybe missing some stuff but I'm sure there's plenty left on your cutting room floor you can consider for some of the stuff I suggested you could be without. I'm really glad you found my list something you could work with and I hope you inspire the same creativity in others. Enjoy and good luck!
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
I'm still trying to decide how I feel about this card. As a draw engine with the cycle lands, it seems unnecessary since we're in blue. Re-grabbing the fetches and Strip Mine sounds golden, but... I know it sounds stupid, but I hate milling myself with the dredge cost. It's completely a psychological thing, and I know it's worth the price, but I always seem to mill off something I really needed, lol.
I'm also thinking that if I'm worried about hitting my land drops, more rampers might be a better solution, since they're more effectively copied than LftL is (hopefully I won't ever have 6 lands in my grave).
I like Yavimya Elder, and I was loathe to cut him. I think I'll take out Slithermuse and put him in that spot. I think you're right about the Slithermuse's situational-ness.
Survival of the Fittest is already in there, Fauna Shaman is a great idea, especially in a toolbox deck like this, thanks for the reminder. I think I'll put her in the Wild Pair spot. As for the cost, I'm just putting the list together for now, and I'll get the deck together one piece at a time. I just want the best list for now.
I like the idea of Wild Pair, but I feel like I need a spreadsheet in my hand while I play with it, lol. Your comment is enough to motivate me to cut it. I also feel like it would make my turns take like 5 minutes while I tried to figure it all out, lol.
I'm a bit skeptical about Lurking Predators, to be honest. This is a toolbox deck, and that card completely messes up my timing. What if my Phyrexian Ingestor is on the top and I want to save it? I think I'm going to cut it.
Yeah, you're probably right about both of those. Cut and cut. Not too many creatures are very good at drawing, I think I was trying to force the theme too hard there.
Yeah... I wondered about that. I noticed you've got a few wraths on your list. Argh, what to cut though! More thought required. Evacuation seems on theme, but it's only a temporary solution that whatever it was that was bad in the first place. Better go with something more serious. I like your Oblivion Stone and Starstorm ideas.
Yeah... the problem here is there isn't much creature removal in UGR. I could put more theft in, but control magic, et. al, don't really synergize with other cards in deck (plus I've already got a steal deck, lol) Red has burn, of course, but it's so weak in this format. I dunno... I totally see what you're saying, he is fragile, but I think I'll keep it for now and give it some thought while playtesting.
Yeah, I thought about the kicker cost problem. I was a bit scared to go down to only 4 removal cards, but maybe 4 is fine, especially with all the tutoring. That opens up a slot if I do that, yay!
I was thinking about the high CMC problem too, I decided to handle it by putting in a more ramp creatures. You don't think I have enough? I do like Bloom Tender. I did spot Seedguide Ash, he looked pretty cool as far as ramp goes.
This brings up a philosophical discussion - is ramping safer than mana dorks, since a lot of people hesitate to play mass land destruction in Commander? The effects of Wood Elves are still around long after they're gone, you know? But once Bloom Tender gets wrathed...
While we're on the subject of mana, I really want to put Vorinclex in the deck to help out with mana, but man... his second ability is so cutthroat. Ugh. Plus if he gets Bribery 'ed... that's a bad day.
Ah yes, have to make room for that one, for shizzle. How could I forgotten that? (especially since I asked your opinion on it, lol) Also kind of makes me want to put back in Vendilion Clique.
That's a good thought, I'll keep that in mind. That would open up more slots if I cut one or two of them. Those are hard to cut though, since they are force multipliers, and each one is a bit subtly different; I really like that Tawnos's Coffin can be used as removal protection for my guys and as a mini O-ring against an opponent's creatures, and Birthing Pod is essentially just another tutor. I may have to playtest to find the right balance there.
Thanks for your advice, it's greatly appreciated.
:symu::symr::symg:Riku of Two Reflections (ETB toolbox)
:symw::symb::symr:Kaalia of the Vast Reanimator
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Karona's Proliferating Allies
Teferi, mage of Zhalfir
The first thing I notice is that you have a very low basic land count considering you are at like 12 basics. I usually try to have more basics in case you run into Blood Moon effects or Ruination. Also, you have tons of comes into play tapped lands and lands that tap for only colorless mana which will hurt a bit. I would try to reduce the number of these lands to a minimum. If you increase your basic count to 16+ it becomes easier to use a lot of the green land ramping spells. Without a higher basic count though you will run into issues with green ramp and fetchlands where you will run out of basics very quickly.
Also, cut Minamo, School at Water's Edge for a basic. You don't need to tap Riku for much of anything so you would actually benefit more from a basic here as it will give you more to go fetch.
(consider) Solemn Simulacrum keep in mind that in a green deck you want to be ramping very quickly. While I like him as a creature, I often like to ramp before I am at 4 mana. I dont tend to put him in all that many decks that have green in it due to that.
(swap) Wood Elves I like them as they can go get a dual land but I dont think I would ever use them before Sakura-Tribe Elder. Being able to ramp on turn 2 is good acceleration. While I understand that it sort of sucks to eat your 1/1 creature to do so it is usually worth the faster ramp. I like him a lot more than things like Farseek as well due to the fact that later in the game you can get chump blocks out of them. Also if needed you can strap a sword to him and swing in. Anyways if you bring up your basic count I think this should turn into a tribe elder.
(consideration for swap) Yavimaya Dryad I guess the fact that it costs GG has always sort of annoyed me in a multicolored deck as it can hinder you in the early game. Due to this I often run Farhaven Elf instead. It is your call though. Fetching up dual lands is nice to have but the GG cost can hurt sometimes.
(exchange) Indrik Stomphowler -> Wickerbough Elder I guess this one is more of personal preferance than anything. I like having the option to save the removal for instant speed. Also copying a stomphowler can be tough if you are the only other one to have a target you waste an activation. The elder can save their removal which is nice. Also he can work well with persisting as he can remove his counter to destroy again.
(consideration to be cut) Tidespout Tyrant personally I dont like him too much because he needs other cards to enable him to be good. If you topdeck him without other things to do he sort of sucks. If you have to tap out to play him he sort of sucks. I see him more of a combo sort of guy who is really funny to execute in the middle of a divining top / future sight storm as you can bounce all your opponents stuff. Without that I sort of have a hard time giving him a spot in decks.
(cut) Caged Sun this card only gives you benefits for one color. It doesnt really seem appropriate to put into a 3 colored deck. It would be very difficult to benefit much from it. At its cost I dont see it worthwhile in this deck.
(cut) Mana Reflection just keep in mind that this is sort of a slow spell to drop. You dont have much ramping in your deck currently to get up to big mana. It is also a big target that you will need to mostly tap out to drop and has no interaction really with riku other than giving you more mana to copy things.
ADDS:
Cultivate your commander costs 5 mana which makes for these 3 mana ramp spells perfect to drop him in a turn earlier. They are somewhat cheap to cast and when copied they net you +4 cards. They seem perfect for Riku.
Kodama's Reach same as cultivate.
Skyshroud Claim 2 lands into play untapped for 4 mana. Copied it gets you 4 land into play untapped for 6 mana. It seems like a very very powerful ramping card for this deck. While it is at 4 mana to cast which I dont like it seems like a powerhouse at ramping. Worth consideration at least.
The extra early game ramp should really help out. You have several big cards that need some fuel for them and I think the sorcery ramp will be a good addition.
Lol I actually had this game just the other day when playing Jenara. I opening handed a few lands, Skullclamp, Rings of Brighthearth, and Birthing Pod. I think I didnt shuffle well enough after doing some edits. Sadly I didnt draw like any creatures and Jenara kept getting killed before I could do anything with her. Watch out for these hands as they can kill you.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
:symu::symr::symg:Riku of Two Reflections (ETB toolbox)
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Teferi, mage of Zhalfir
Most notably... I bought an Imperial Recruiter for myself as a present. (I know, I know - I'm crazy. But I'm going away for 6 months soon, and I just used all of my Magic allowance at once. :)). That card is so huge - it grabs any of the various effects you could want. I put Ixidron back in so the recruiter could grab it along with all the other cool stuff. Recruiter seriously needs to go in the next From the Vaults reprint. I can't believe he's an uncommon.
I also put 2 more fetchlands in, for use with the Crucible of Worlds. I think ISB is right about upping my basic land count; that's my next project. I did run out of forests to search for the other day, but the game was only a turn or two away from the end, so it didn't bug me too much at the time. I'm not sure what I'm going to cut rght now... maybe the Lorwyn filter lands.
I also removed Fabricate to put in Gamble. It's for searching out Survival of the Fittest mostly (but also for anything that Fabricate could search if I want it to). Fingers crossed about not pitching Survival into the yard after tutoring it up.
Swapped out the Indrik Stomphowler for a Wickerbough Elder. I decided that both work equally well with all the value engines, and the elder may actually prevent someone from putting something good on the board, which means I might stop more than one good card with my one card. Interesting prospect.
I changed Myr Battlesphere out for Magmatic Force. I can't stop thinking about this card and how amazing it is. 12 damage before you get to swing with him; it's like he has haste, and super-evasion. So I'll give him a try for a bit. Ideally all of my finishers would be green so I could say "surpise!" on turn 3 or 4 with a Natural Order, but green doesn't have an effect like this.
ISB, I've thought a lot about your advice. I'm still considering Sakura-Tribe Elder, but the fact that I can't get multiplied value out of him by feeding him to any of my engines is bothering me. I'll think about it some more. If I did put him in, it would probably be in the Solemn Simulacrum slot, even though giving up card draw makes me cry. My other problem is that he's only better than my other stuff if I draw him on turns 1-4 (before I cast Riku), then he's worse. Much worse. I'll happily take a Solemn on any turn of the game.
I appreciate your advice about putting in sorceries over dudes for ramping, but I have so many value engines in the deck for creatures, I just can't do it. I want to get the most out of them that I can. Just the other day I was bouncing Wood Elves up and down (via Sneak Attack and Cloudstone Curio)to make my Avenger of Zendikar tokens ridiculous. I wouldn't have been able to do that with a Cultivate. Nor can you cast Natural Order on a Cultivate. You can't Skullclamp or Genesis a Cultivate, or put a sword on one either. So for now... I gotta stick with creatures. I think their drawbacks (like the :symg::symg: on Yavimaya Dryad) are minimal enough. It hasn't bothered me yet.
The deck is soooo ridiculously fun, by the way. If you're reading this, and even thinking about trying out Riku, do it. He gets a lot of hate at my table, soaking up destruction and tuck spells, but the deck runs just fine without him. It just gets ridiculous when you do have him.
Playing this deck has changed my paradigm about Magic - I'm usually a control player and initially had Draining Whelk, a bunch of dedicated draw, and just generally control-ish stuff in the deck. Playing it now, I'm thinking that if I'm not tapping out every turn, I'm doing it wrong. So this has been a good experience for me.
It also amuses me, looking at the list now, and how nicely everything jives together and works so well, that I was originally thinking about cards like Slithermuse. Live and learn.
One more shout out to SuperSonik. You'll notice my list and his are like 10-15 cards apart. That's because he convinced me on most counts that what he was saying made sense, through patient discussion and a few PMs. Thanks for your help. :-D
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Teferi, mage of Zhalfir
WAT
Wow dude. Congrats? Hahahaha I don't know whether to blow a noisemaker or do a headdesk. Either way he will surely kick ass in your deck. I would have no trouble proxying one, come to think of it... it's not like his power level is off the charts. It's merely a good card, one of many in this game.
Good move. Why limit yourself to artifacts, right? And hey if you pitch your target... you're in green, the color with the most resources to get it right back. When you topdeck that Eternal Witness, you'll be glad it was in your yard and not in your library, right?
This is sound reasoning (not to mention stomphowler is just a worse slime). It's the same reason Seal of Primordium is always going to make it for me over Naturalize. I think most players, myself included, undervalue the benefits of laying a card on the table and saying "DEAL WITH IT". /glasses
Interested very much in hearing how you like this guy. I'd probably be so mad I couldn't kill an X/4 with it but in a few turns the controller has already taken 12-18 damage so maybe it's worth it? It does nuke a LOT of really fast and fragile generals and I think that's probably the best part. Though I fear the not-so-uncommon scenario where those low-toughness, low-costed generals may have already taken board control before this guy sticks.
Yes. Sadly, it's not a death trigger. Viridian Emissary is that card, but you need to be packing sac outlets to make sure he'd go off. I still think Solemn is unnecessary though. Yeah, he's a great card and all, but he's hardly something you're going to tutor for and frankly when you have access to all these colors, he's underwhelming as a pure value play when you could be making stronger plays for the same amount of mana. And since your general costs 5 mana, you're basically leapfrogging him with a 6-drop if you stay on curve (which you might not I guess). If you had plans to rez him a bunch of times or something he'd be more exciting. The elder is at least undercosted and efficient for what it does while being pitchable to survival, triggering Equilibrium, etc.
The GG on Yavimaya Elder is pissing me off lately. I have a pretty robust manabase and he still gets stranded in my opener sometimes. I don't like drawing him late either. I don't know what that means for your deck though
Very glad to be of help my friend. I have enjoyed our conversations. I am no super-awesome magic expert but I get the confidence to keep up the building from players like you. One of these days I'll get a new deck going and I'll be sure to bounce some ideas off of you.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Yeah... lol. I know, crazy like I said. My thought process was sort of like this though - every time I wanted a Duplicant, I thought, "hrmm... the recruiter could grab that for me if I had one." And the reverse was true too - every time I held Fauna Shaman, I thought, "hrmm... recruiter could go tap her on the shoulder if I needed her next game." So it was just like... half my cards caused me to think how they would interact with him, over and over again, and I finally broke down to my troll brain, lol. I still can't believe he's as much as he is, but I'm so stoked to have him in there.
The other thing is, I'm sure I'll be playing this deck for a very long time. This is an eternal format, and this deck is amazing to play. So if you cut the cost down into dollars/hour of enjoyment, it shouldn't take me too long to get my $/hr cost into the "equal to a movie" price range, which is kind of where my standard lies for how I spend my hobby money, and if I was reasonable with it (but... it is still crazy).
A funny thing is that now I sort of feel like I need to have a spreadsheet with me when I play the deck. I've now got tutors that grab creatures by color, power, and CMC. Lol.
The downside to having him in the deck is that I think I might have to double sleeve it now. And that's a bit annoying.
Yeah... Magmatic Force does cost a lot, that's for shizzle. I'll try him for 5-10 or so games and see how often I can get him out, and how many opponents he nom noms. I'm still trying to find room for a Flash in the deck, but it's like every card is my child at this point though, haha. They're all... so useful! Cauldron of Souls might be a stepchild though; it's pretty expensive, and it can have a tendency to just sit there sometimes, not doing much. It's probably first on my short list right now.
I've had this thought too. Being CMC 4, right next to Riku at 5, makes him a little awkward that way with the leapfrog. Hrmmm. You and ISB are kind of starting to convince me here again, but I think I'll wait a bit longer. A few more games to see how it goes with the Solemn Golem. Sneak Attack and Birthing Pod were made to go with the Golem, you see. ;D
Sounds good! I might be asking your viewpoint with a Teferi deck I'm working on here in the next week or so, if you don't mind too much... ;D
:symu::symr::symg:Riku of Two Reflections (ETB toolbox)
:symw::symb::symr:Kaalia of the Vast Reanimator
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Karona's Proliferating Allies
Teferi, mage of Zhalfir
I've always found warp world fun in Riku, but there is a fine line before fun shennanigans, and breaking games.
Yeah, this is definitely a concern. I've thought time and time again about Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, and I may eventually end up with him in that slot, but I've have never seen anyone untap with a praetor in the group I play with. They do draw way too much attention and send everyone into panic mode. This guy is probably in that category, but I just gotta try it out a few times, because I'm such a Timmy.
The "attracts attention" issue seems to be an issue with a lot of finishers, though. Avenger gets a bit of a pardon, because you pretty much have to wrath to deal with him. So, outside of using something like Inkwell Leviathan, are there any solutions to this problem? I don't know that there are, aside from cast and hope.
This may be a deck that doesn't need creatures in the "doesn't do anything else, it's only for beating" category, but like I said, I'm still figuring out this deck and tweaking.
:symu::symr::symg:Riku of Two Reflections (ETB toolbox)
:symw::symb::symr:Kaalia of the Vast Reanimator
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Teferi, mage of Zhalfir
Magmatic Force -> Bogardan Hellkite. This was a hard choice between this guy and Moldgraf Monstrosity. All my engines work with ETB stuff though, so I went with the Hellkite. I just don't think I'll get to untap with Magmatic.
Wormfang Drake -> Phantasmal Image. I like the idea of the Drake, and he's great when Riku is on the board. More often than not though, I'm running the deck without Riku, so I need a card that's good all the time. And when someone casts their Primeval, I know which one would rather have in hand.
Solemn Simulacrum -> Sakura-Tribe Elder. You win again, Sonik. You convinced me here. Even though I can't bounce the Elder for more value, I can Natural Order him. And he does let me cast Riku better than Solemn does. Either one works with Genesis and Riku..
Cauldron of Souls -> Erratic Portal. The 5 CMC on the Cauldron always killed me, since it's the same as Riku. Maybe I'll try it again some other time. And with the portal, I don't have to wait for my opponent to do something. Also it saves Riku from being tucked.
Mystic Snake -> Flash. Not sure I'll miss the snake really. I know I'm going to *love* Flash though. It's bonkers in this deck. I've been looking for a place for it for a while, glad I finally found one.
:symu::symr::symg:Riku of Two Reflections (ETB toolbox)
:symw::symb::symr:Kaalia of the Vast Reanimator
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Teferi, mage of Zhalfir
I mostly changed around the land base.
Lorwyn filter lands -> Fetchlands
Magus of the Future -> Life From the Loam. These both provide card advantage, just in different ways. I thought Magus was a good candidate to remove, since I never tutored for him, 5 is expensive for a card that doesn't hit the board with a thud, and triple blue isn't always available.
Upped count of basic lands. More targets for the fetch lands, more resistant to things like Ruination or Back to Basics.
Added Wasteland and Ghost Quarter. As long as I've got the recurring land engines going, why not? These are a powerful addition to the deck. Also I've got a guy in my playgroup with a deck that taps Gaea's Cradle and Serra's Sanctum for like a million mana each turn, and that crap needs to stop like right now. :-D
I hope I don't miss the utility lands I had to cut. Homeward Path, Reflecting Pool, Vesuva, Riptide Laboratory, Tolaria West. I think I'll be okay.
Oh, I also did Artisan of Kozilek -> Modgraf Monstrosity. I can Natural Order into the Moldgraf, and it works well with Sneak Attack. I think I like it better for now.
:symu::symr::symg:Riku of Two Reflections (ETB toolbox)
:symw::symb::symr:Kaalia of the Vast Reanimator
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Teferi, mage of Zhalfir
Moldgraf Monstrosity -> Bloodfire Colossus. I've got multiple token players in my meta, so I needed something that could take care of that. I contemplated Caldera Hellion, but the colossus is a good finisher too. It also makes me feel more like I now have the "3 sweepers" that Sonik recommended (Kederekt Leviathan, Bloodfire Colossus, and Ixidron).
Woodfall Primus -> Magmatic Force. Haha, I caved and put him back in. I... don't think I'll miss the removal really, I dunno. I'll see. If I ever want a big removal guy, I always go for either Terastodon or Kederekt L. Anyway, Mag Force made a lot of sense in this slot since now I've got sort of a "direct damage from creatures" theme going on, with the Inferno Titan, Bogardan Hellkite, and the Bloodfire Colossus. So this just completes the set. I really like this theme - I've got a ton of value out of the big red dudes in the last few games I've played. They do a lot even if the field is clogged with dudes, or there's a Moat in play or something like it.
Green Sun's Zenith -> Pattern of Rebirth. This was mainly because I removed two green upper end guys. Now I need to find red upper end guys. And I don't think Pattern will be all that bad. I can control sometimes when it triggers. Put it on a Sakura Tribe Elder or a Yavimaya Elder. Or something I'm about to Skullclamp, or hit with Inferno Titan's ability. So I do have a little bit of control over it. I think it will work out okay.
Ghost Quarter -> Tectonic Edge. Tec Edge doesn't give them another land, even if costs a mana to use.
I've been seriously thinking about going Wickerbough Elder -> Trygon Predator. Trigon isn't an ETB guy, but he does have the potential to remove a whole slew of bad stuff. I've also thought about filling the slot with Root Greevil. Never heard of that card before, but I stumbled across it in a gatherer search. I'm also sad that Uktabi Kong isn't a real card, I'd throw that right in if it was.
Okay, now for playtesting!
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:symw::symb::symr:Kaalia of the Vast Reanimator
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Teferi, mage of Zhalfir
Magmatic Force and Bloodfire Colossus are non-bos with your ETB theme and they are a huge amount of fat. I really don't like either of them. Bloodfire could easily be Caldera or Crater Hellion. I think Caldera is probably the better choice in a vacuum but a lot of x/4 generals in your meta could change that. Magmatic seems like a luxury you can live without to get leaner and meaner. I notice your critical 4-drop spot is a little lacking- Sower of Temptation or even Dungeon Geists or FTK could go well.
Erratic Portal is just a duplicate Crystal Shard. I don't think you need both. I'm gonna say Fact or Fiction is the way to go here. That spell is so ridiculously good I had to check your list twice to make sure you had omitted it. You could also play Fabricate, but you still have to find room for FoF IMO.
I don't really like Cloudstone Curio because it takes a little work to get it going and it's dead after a wrath. Where's your Chaos Warp or Beast Within? I would cut the Curio and Wickerbough for the two. It's ok to play noncreatures as good as those and they are great to copy too.
And call me crazy here but I am not hot on Keiga here. He is yet another non-bo with your ETB theme and he is completely cold to wrath effects. I would recommend Duplicant, Rampaging Baloths or Frost Titan here. Duplicant is just amazing and needs no explanation. Frosty is totally underrated and stops a ton of permanent-based threats. Rampaging Baloths get just stupid silly without an answer. Keiga can be pretty much ignored until a wrath, which is why I don't like him.
Interested to hear your defenses for these cards. Always a pleasure.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Awesome! I appreciate the feedback and input, as always.
Okay - so here's why I changed my deck around. I felt like the deck had a whole ton of answers for stuff, but just wasn't that threatening. Yes, dropping and copying a Primeval Titan is awesome. But it doesn't really win you that many games (by itself). Even a copied Terastodon is awesome, but... he's just "meh" as a closer (no evasion, doesn't get rid of blockers). The *only* dude I had in the deck that was a good, no kidding, finisher was Avenger of Zendikar. And after playing a bunch of games, I realized that he's not really the "insta-win" that people sometimes make him out to be. You have to spend a lot of energy making those tokens threatening, and protecting them until they are interesting. Once you get him down, you've got to put at least 3 lands on the board before you can say you've now got the upper hand and can take someone out. Does that make sense? The deck was just lacking reliable closers. Utility all day long, for all sorts of situations, but no solid game winners (save Rite or Replication - that's deadly on just about anything).
Okay - that's where these big red dudes come in. I played multiple games where I would finally get to a point where I had BANG thumped down, say, Woodfall Primus, and even copied him. Dream come true! everything is working perfectly - this what I built the deck for! I've ramped, solved problems, and now reached my top end! ...But the board was clogged with dudes, so I never got ahead or made much of a difference. These red guys are different. You have a Forcefield (yes, it's in my meta), or some other huge pillowfort? Eat my Bogardan Hellkite's ETB trigger 4 or 5 times (which actually happened). You've got a million tokens that are preventing Moldgraf Monstrosity from giving you a haymaker to the face? Let's Rite of Replication Inferno Titan, and see where we are now (which I also did the other day).
See what I mean? These creatures give me things I didn't have before, and I can't see where I can these things anywhere else. They hit with a thud. Direct damage gets around all kinds of utility dudes, tokens, preventative crap, etc.
I DO see what you mean about some of these guys being nom-bos with the heavy ETB theme of the deck. Colossus doesn't interact in any way with Crystal Shard, or Erratic Portal. BUT - he does combo with all the other stuff in the deck that also abuses ETB stuff. How awesome is he on a Mimic Vat? Riku copies him all day long (which he did for me the other day). Flash, Chord of Calling, Pattern of Rebirth, Sneak Attack love this dude. When I summon him, he can bounce something else with Equilibrium or Cloudstone Curio. So yes, while not strictly an ETB guy, he benefits from a lot of the same assets. Same story with Magmatic Force - a lot of the same interactions there. Loves being cheated into play, or copied with Riku.
Oh, and I chose Bloodfire over Caldera Hellion because Bloodfire also damages players, and I was looking for another finisher, since I was removing Molfgraf Monstrosity.
As far as the cards you suggested... Sower of Temptation and Dungeon Geist... hrmm. I'm kind of with you when you said before that these are only temporary solutions. I'm not a big fan of giving someone back their Kozilek I just stole because they have removal for Sower. I like my answers to be a bit more permanent.
I *want* both of them in there! The ETB effects are powerful enough for me to be okay with having both in there. I've never drawn them both, but I'm always happy to see either one! Same story with Equilibrium. When I was first building this deck, and I was asking you questions about your build, and asked you why you didn't have more draw, you outlined several ways that your deck worked without a ton of dedicated draw. This is one where mine works pretty well without drawing. I don't need to draw into my next ramp spell if I've got a Wood Elf and a Crystal Shard on the board. I know I've backed off just a little bit from the *pure* ETB build I had in the past, (by adding Magmatic and Bloodfire, etc.), but I've got 34 creatures in the deck, and I think I count at least 26 of them that have ETB abilities that I'd love to use more than once. Or at the least, I can bounce and re-cast something for Riku to re-copy.
And Fact or Fiction... yes, good card. But - like I've always maintained with this deck... I'm trying really hard to keep my creature count as high as possible. All my engines rely on creatures and using and re-using them. I can tutor, equip, search, recur, bounce, cast, and re-cast creatures. I can't do any of those things with non-creatures. I can't hit Fact or Fiction with Natural Order. I can't give it a sword. Etc. I dunno... in my playtesting, I've not really very often been wanting for more draw, above what I have already. I'll keep it in mind. As an aside, I'm sure I would never use it as an instant, since I always tap out.
Again, creatures over spells with this build. More creatures = more value for all my engines and interactions. Even if they are good spells, I'd rather have it on a stick. I've made some concessions, like replaced my original Brutalizer Exarch with Wordly Tutor, since the mana difference is so significant.
Here's another good reason - tutorability. If I need to get rid of an artifact, I've got like 7 or 8 different ways I can tutor up one of my creatures for that. There are only 2 or 3 ways in these colors to tutor up the spells you mentioned. That's an enormous downside, if you ask me. I can get to my Acidic Slime/Gilded Drake much easier than you can get to your Beast Within.
As far as Cloudstone Curio... hrmm. As far as being "cold to wraths"... I suppose you do have a point. There aren't many wraths in my meta, first of all, an secondly... I don't feel like it takes that much to get going again after a wrath. It's just a free crystal shard, basically. More redundancy for ETB stuff. If it starts getting in the way, I can consider cutting it. It's worked fine in playtesting though. Especially when I had a Wood Elves/Avenger of Zendikar bounce/bounce going when I also had a Sneak Attack in play (all my friends were horrified at what I was doing for so little mana, haha - that was a great game). So it's worked for me well so far.
Keiga. Same statements as above regarding Magmatic and Bloodfire. He doesn't combo with Crystal Shard or Erratic Portal. But he works great with Flash, Birthing Pod, Sneak Attack, and loves be copied by Riku (which I did the other day to steal 2 dudes at once).
I do hear you on the Duplicant. I actually just had Duplicant in that slot, I just forgot to mention it in my changes above. BUT... after playing 4 games in a row, where Duplicant was just kind of not very impressive because he's terrible removal against generals (he doesn't get anything from exiling a general because he'll never imprint)... I was thinking about what else to put in that slot. I've also thought many times, like you put in your primer for Phyrexian Ingestor, that if he had some sort of evasion, he would be about 100x better.
I also like Keiga in my meta because I see a lot of Eldrazi running around (and like I said, not many wraths). And the owner will always point him somewhere else instead of at me. That way I have an Eldrazi kind of working for me, and I have a good creature (Keiga), instead of just a lame big creature with no evasion abilities (Duplicant after eating an Eldrazi). This is one of those changes though that I wasn't totally sure about. Duplicant can be a house if you can re-use him enough times with the engines. So I definitely have this on my "things to think about while play" list, about which one I would rather have when I draw Keiga.
Okay... did all that make sense? I'm interested to hear your thoughts on my master's thesis about these card changes.
This is still such an amazing and fun deck. Every time I copy something or cheat something into play, it's a riot. And of course every time I cast Kederket Leviathan or Ixidron, I have a big doofy grin on my face. :-D It's still my favorite to tutor them up in answer to a tough problem.
:symu::symr::symg:Riku of Two Reflections (ETB toolbox)
:symw::symb::symr:Kaalia of the Vast Reanimator
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Teferi, mage of Zhalfir
Your justification for Bloodfire and Magmatic Force sounds like "I need finishers". I honestly wouldn't call either one of those finishers when you can be choosing Insurrection, Overwhelming Stampede, Rude Awakening, or even Comet Storm. They compare very poorly to them without some sort of combo and you know it. BUT- since you need creatures specifically... I guess that new green 5/5 with super-overrun attached will fit in here nicely, so that would settle one of them. My vote would be Magmatic since then you can keep the Bloodfire for sweeping. I'd also recommend the Stampede as it's just really really solid in this deck and will definitely blow people out who aren't expecting it. Copying it is just obscene.
You know... you COULD just run the Eldrazi yourself. Bouncing and replaying Kozilek or Ulamog will definitely get the job done
Actually you know what gives you a ton of reach that you aren't playing? Kessig Wolf Run. I see it's missing here and if there's a more consistent way to turn mana into damage when you're playing heavy on the creatures then I don't know about it.
On to Chaos Warp and Beast Within- I can see that if you are heavy into creatures then maybe you don't want to play these. I think you may be limiting yourself here considerably though. Tucking generals for 3 at instant speed is just insane. These cards are never dead. There are no creatures that can do this (Gomazoa lol?). And both are still copiable with Riku and tutorable via Mystical Tutor and Gamble. That's reason enough for me but if you really want to stay on theme then I suppose I can't stop you.
If Keiga is primarily an Eldrazi deterrant then I can see him working for you. He's a great card, I just don't like his performance in a more developed, wrath-happy meta.
I applaud you for staying so heavily with creatures. I feel like you could abuse this even more by cutting out more instants and sorceries for more guys on the lower end of the curve, (Spike Weaver, Sower, Fierce Empath, etc... btw where is your Fierce Empath? He is dopey good here and you can clamp him to boot!) and then run Lurking Predators. You have over 30 creatures now- if you got up to 35 or more and ran predators you would certainly not lack for finishing power because you will win very soon with that baby out. I have always wanted to run it because it's just so brutal but I never end up getting to the creature count of 35 or so where I'd really want to run it.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Another plus for Chaos Warp, if you really wanted, if you have any way of fixing the top of your deck, you could always warp one of your own creatures that you've already gotten use out of to play a big beefy beater for just the cost of the warp, on top of copying it with Riku to get rid of something else. However, as SuperSonik said, if you want to stay on theme, then more power to you.
This deck seems to play a good bit like a more streamlined version of my Animar deck (see sig).
Some suggestions from my Animar deck that may work here:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary - Great creature tutoring to give you more potential to draw your answers, especially since you're running a creature-heavy deck. Unfortunately, he is the same CMC as your general.
Garruk's Horde - Future Sight for your creatures. Some people don't like playing these type of cards because they don't like giving their opponents that kind of information, but you are already running Oracle of Mul Daya so why not be able to cast your creatures from there too? - Edit: I see your Magus of the Future, a less beefy, but more versatile version.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir - I see you already have a Teferi deck, so I'm sure you know all about his power already. The color requirement can be rough for a tri-color deck, but the ability to give all of your creatures flash, and therefore not having to tap out on your own turn is a huge boon.
Any of Trusted Advisor/Oni of Wild Places/Stampeding Wildebeests - a free crystal shard effect during your upkeep for any color you choose it for.
Animar, Soul of Elements - My general (who I switched out for Riku after seeing your deck just to give it a shot) and makes your beefy guys cheaper, letting you cast and bounce more per turn. With Cloudstone Curio and a couple of eldrazi, can go infinite. The protections are just icing on the cake for me.
These are all cards that have worked well for me, although you seem to be at a point where any cuts you make will require really powerful effects.
How is Myr Battlesphere working for you? I opened one in a booster, and just can't really seem to find what to do with it.
Also, how do you deal with a resolved Elesh Norn? He seems like he could do some damage to your board state, particularly your Riku although it does seem you run a lot of beefier than x/2 creatures.
I have to say, your deck is rather scary. I also play in a Wrath-light meta, so I understand where you come from with some of your card choices. I'll definitely be looking to this list and Supersonik's for ideas to fix mine as well, since I feel it could still use a lot of work.
BGW Doran, the Siege Tower BGW
URG Animar, Combo Player URG (needs updating)
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
Doesn't work :(. You have to shuffle the permanent in, then reveal, without anything allowed to happen in between.
This is part of what I am getting at with some of these non-creatures. You can Ixidron her and Gilded Drake is the nuts, and you do have a couple clones, so there are some answers there. But Kederekt Leviathan and Bloodfire Colossus don't really get you out of that hole. This is where I'm thinking Duplicant, Blasphemous Act, Beast Within and Chaos Warp could strengthen the deck. Dealing with resolved non-legendary creatures can be a real weakness here.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Curse you and your passion. I'll have to think about it more. The problem with going Cloud Curio -> Fact or Fiction is that I was thinking about putting that new blue blink card in that slot! I'll give it some more thought and think about all my options for maybe making room for it. I can see what you mean. I appreciate your thoughts, and you do have a habit of convincing me. This may be one of those times.
Yeah, you're right - it is a case of "I need a finisher". Insurrection though? Hrmm... it feels very weird to play it in a Riku deck. It doesn't synergize with anything. It is a good card though, and a great finisher. I could consider it. The biggest problem is though, with all of those you suggested actually - that I have no way to tutor for any of them when I'm ready to finish a game.
Also, most of the ones you mentioned are good in token builds. When I am at the end of a game, unless I have AoZ out, I usually only have maybe 4 or 5 dudes on the board at most. So I'm not totally sure Overrun type stuff is the way to go? I feel like it would be a gamble, since my deck isn't built to assure I have a lot dudes out, like Hornet Queen and Myr Battlesphere. Maybe with that new big dude - I've definitely been thinking about him. I can see slotting him in instead of Magmatic. Maybe I'll do that. More thought required on that one. I can tutor for him. He's even Natural Order-able!
If I was going to go the spell route for a finisher, I would probably consider Berserk before I thought about the overrun type spells. Since I typically have a flier out at the end-game (Sphinx of Uthuun, Bogardan Hellkite) that would benefit from a huge boost, especially if doubled by Riku (for 4x power). Berserk also is hilarious to use on an opponent's creature, attacking another opponent. :-D
Hrmmm. I could. There is very little synergy with the Eldrazi and the other stuff in my deck though. They're too big to summon with Birthing Pod and Chord of Calling though. Natural Order doesn't work on them. I can't double them with Riku. So... I don't think I'll go that route. Plus I already play them in my Teferi deck, and I already feel guilty about annihilating people's stuff in that deck. I don't need guilt issues in two decks, haha. ;-D
/facepalm. I don't know how I missed that. It's totally going in. I'll find a spot for it. Thanks for catching that.
I've found that with problem creatures, especially generals, Gilded Drake and Ixidron pretty well take care of them for me. Usually for quite a few turns, if not most of the game. I've been really happy with both of them. So I'm not as worried about tuck effects lately. Chaos Warp would be nice to have to get rid of problem enchantments, but again... I can't tutor for it if I really need it.
He's also a good beater general deterrent. No one wants to send their Thraximundar or their Rafiq into him, either, both of which are in my meta. So... I do get value out of him in a lot of different ways. I always keep in mind whether or not I would rather have him or the Duplicant, and so far I'm still leaning toward Keiga for now. If I start to see more wraths, I might change my mind. The point about Elesh Norn is a pretty good one, I hadn't thought about that case. I don't see her much in my meta, I'll give it more thought. Your strong feelings about Duplicant may be tilting me back that way - but I'm telling you... it's so disappointing to spend 6 mana on a vanilla 2/4 when you remove a general. Maybe I just need to suck it up, haha. The removal's really the point in the first place, right?
I feel like the instants and sorceries I do have in there are the ones I can't possibly go without, haha, so I don't know about cutting them. I struggled with all of them, wanting to cut them, but had a hard time doing it. A lot of them are either REALLY good effects (Regrowth), or stuff that just isn't available on a creature (Rite of Replication, Gamble). I could consider taking some of them out for more lower end creatures, especially if I do go with Lurking Predators. The problem with Lurking Predators is that this is a toolbox deck, and I'm always afraid the wrong thing will pop up when I don't need it. I guess you always have the option of moving it to the bottom of the yard. I'll think about it more. It's not a bad idea.
And Fierce Empath... I probably should look harder for a slot for him. It was just one of those "didn't have room" for him things. There are several like that, like Elvish Piper! I keep trying to find a spot for her too! I'll reconsider, especially now that I feel like I need more ways to pull out the big red guys.
Thanks, as always, for your thoughts.
Oh, and Dae57 - I think you confused the list I had as "things I considered putting in the deck", as actually my deck. Since you mentioned Magus of the Future and Myr Battlesphere. I don't have those in the deck right now. I did, but took them both out. I'll get to your thoughts later. I'm in Afghanistan right now, 8.5 hours ahead, and it's reaaaaly late here, so I'm off to bed. I'll answer in the morning.
:symu::symr::symg:Riku of Two Reflections (ETB toolbox)
:symw::symb::symr:Kaalia of the Vast Reanimator
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Karona's Proliferating Allies
Teferi, mage of Zhalfir
I was just making the point here that as far as finishers go sorceries and instants are really in another league compared to creatures in these colors, for the most part. The new green guy does compete a little better though and he will make sense for you for sure.
Berserk is so gross but I will never want to buy one unless its crazy beat up. Even then it is behind Maze of Ith, Force of Will, Mana Drain, and U/W duals on my list of cards I wish I had. I think if I had it I would play it.
As for Lurking Predators- with graveyard access like Green has there is almost never a bad time to get a creature for free from the top of your library. I wouldn't let that scare you off. Try it sometime. If you didn't get to copy it with Riku for mana reasons or whatever, you can always clone it later Or you can sac it to High Market, get it back with Genesis or Academy Ruins, and repeat. Stuff like that.
And finally Fierce Empath is WAY more effective than Elvish Piper. Piper will die the minute it is cast. Empath skips that part by putting the guy in your hand. I know it sounds wierd but a creature (or two!) in your hand is way less threatening once your opponents know what is (and know you can't slip it in for :symg:).
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary - I... hrmm. I don't think I even considered him in my build, I think I sort of forgot he was a card. I can see the appeal! My deck is very much a toolbox deck, that loves tutoring, that's for sure. But... man... he's 5 CMC, no immediate benefit from casting him, AND he's a legendary (and thus not copyable with Riku). That's a lot of strikes.
Garruk's Horde - I think this card is interesting, but I'd throw Magus of the Future back in before I'd consider this one. High CMC, no immediate benefit again. I don't mind giving my opponent's the extra info, it's definitely the high CMC part that bugs me.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir - I can see the appeal... in my Teferi deck I definitely scare the crap out of the whole table by playing Magic on other people's turns. Same strikes as Momir, though. No immediate benefit (he's an investment, in other words), legendary (not copyable), and 5 CMC again. Also triple blue.
Animar, Soul of Elements - I can see the appeal here too, since Riku is SO mana hungry, and loves any efficiencies he can get. The problem with running Animar as a non-general is that in my deck, he would go in the "beating" category, since he doesn't provide any utility. And if I draw him late, he's... kinda bad. As a general, he's amazing. Not a general, just... meh...
I *really* appreciate the suggestions though! If you have more, certainly keep them coming. I love to hear them, they make me re-think my card choices. I'll keep thinking about Momir and Teferi, they both provide powerful effects, even if they don't provide immediate benefits when they hit the board.
And Sonik... here are come more changes you've convinced me to make:
Okay, fine: I think we're going to go Keiga, The Tide Star -> Duplicant. I can see all of your logic here. And it is pretty sound logic. One of the MAIN things that makes me absolutely LOVE Duplicant, is that I can grab him with Imperial Recruiter. And Duplicant can be a house with all the bouncing, etc., in the deck, even if you don't necessarily get a very impressive creature at the end - big (maybe), with no evasion, but like I said... I probably just need to suck that up. The removal is really the point in the first place. Getting rid of something big and scary that needs a panic button is worth 6 mana.
Magmatic Force -> Craterhoof Behemoth. Sonik used logic! It was Super Effective! I really like cards that get me benefits right away. Dudes that, even if they don't survive a round around the table, it doesn't matter because I already got what I wanted from them. Behemoth fits this category very nicely, Magmatic doesn't necessarily. It's much more tutorable than Magmatic (Natural Order! BANG! POW!), and synergies much better with the rest of the deck (especially Avenger of Zendikar). I am a little worried that sometimes I won't have enough creatures on the field to make the best use out of him, but we'll address that in playtesting. I of course don't have to grab him every game.
Kessig Wolf Run -> ? Finding a spot for this. Hrmm. I don't often have a ton of creatures to get as amazing use out of Gaea's Cradle as a token deck does, but it seems criminal to pull that out. I've only used Yavimaya Hollow like once, I think, but that also seems criminal to pull out. I might... pull out... a basic Mountain?
Fierce Empath -> ?. More tutoring = deck is more awesome. Definitely need to find a place for this. I'm just trying to figure out what to cut. More thought required.
Cloudstone Curio -> Ghostly Flicker? This seems very logical. I think I need to think about it a bit more, though. It always bugs me when I bounce my Bogardan Hellkite and have to pay full price for him again, I want his effect on the cheap! This lets me have it. Also awesome that it doubles as removal protection! And flickering Gaea's Cradle so you can tap it again with a bunch of dudes on the board seems interesting. Hrmm. This card is going to "do good work", as Sonik says. Funny, I was just looking through the gatherer the other day to make sure blue didn't have something like this already, and I was disappointed. And here we have it! I was considering using Voyager Staff, but I like this better.
Fact or Fiction? Still thinking about this one. I was actually pondering taking out a creature to put this in, believe it or not. Still thinking. Some potential candidates:
-Sensei's Divining Top (I hate to cut this, especially since now I added all the fetches in, but I don't know if I would actually miss it all that much. I usually grab either Sol Ring or Skullclamp with Trinket Mage, so I don't usually see this in games anyway?)
-Lightning Greaves (I know, I know. I don't usually tutor for it, Godo grabs swords all day, so I don't often see it very many games anyway? That's my logic, anyway...)
-Chord of Calling (I hate to cut tutors! Maybe this is a good place for Fierce Empath to go instead. It is an expensive tutor, but it does put it right on the field!)
-Erratic Portal (I think this is what you would probably recommend. But... the whole entire deck would suffer, I think from cutting a force multiplier. Every card literally gets a little bit less useful when you cut an engine like that)
-Phyrexian Metamorph/Phantasmal Image (I hate to think about cutting one or the other. But I could. These are also *amazing* at general and big Eldrazi removal, so I really hate to remove that utility. Maybe taking out one wouldn't totally kill me)
-Bribery You know I'm digging deep if I'm even considering cutting this card, because I love it so much. It's not... essential for a win, and it doesn't synergize with much (Riku, that's it), but it's... hilarious. Every time, hah.
-Life From the Loam/Cruicible of Worlds (I hate to take these out too, since Riku is SO mana hungry - it's important to make the land drops. And these work SO well with the fetches and the Wasteland effects, it's crazy. But I could take the land engine down a notch to ensure I have more stuff in hand)
Man... so hard to find slots for things, because every card has been a complete superstar in one game or another. So much value in one deck. I really like these colors! So... any recommendations on which one? Or maybe one I didn't think of?
Also, any advice on Wickerbough Elder vs. Trygon Predator?
Thanks again for all the feedback and discussion. I really appreciate it. I feel like the deck gets better every round.
:symu::symr::symg:Riku of Two Reflections (ETB toolbox)
:symw::symb::symr:Kaalia of the Vast Reanimator
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Karona's Proliferating Allies
Teferi, mage of Zhalfir
Firstly, about Dae's suggestions, they were all powerful cards but you were right to keep them out for now. The legendaries lack synergy and impact and the Horde is too slow IMO.
Kegia --> Duplicant: I FORGOT you play recruiter. Lucky skunk. This is a no brainer!!
Magmatic --> Craterfatty: I also think this is a no brainer, once this guy hits the market. Magmatic living for more than a turn just seems like magical Christmasland. Not gonna be a problem with the behemoth.
Kessig Wolf Run --> I'd actually go with cutting Wasteland or Tec Edge. You already have strip mine and P Tizzle to tutor for it. And with Crucible and Loam in the equation, duplicates are less effective. Which leads right to:
Island (or wasteland/Tec edge) --> Tolaria West. Lets you tutor for whatever land you need. I consider it invaluable. Getting cradle alone will pay back the mana investment fairly quickly and anything else you get, well, you probably needed it enough to offset the transmute cost right?
Fierce Empath --> Bogardan Hellkite/Pattern of Rebirth. I think the Hellkite is, for you, the weakest of three 8-drops. How many 8-drops do you want to be playing? I am less certain on the Enchantment but it sets you up for a nasty 2-for-1 if your guy gets bounced or STP'd and you know how I hate those. You are asking for a lot to go right for that to work out for you.
Curio --> Flicker: seems good to me. I can't wait to try this one myself.
FoF --> Loam/Crucible or Portal. I don't think you need both land recyclers, even though they are exceedingly good. I prefer to keep Crucible because it doesn't suck up a draw step to get more than one use out of it, but YMMV. If you have one then the other is more or less a dead card, unlike portal and shard where having two just means twice the shenanigans. And trust me when I say FoF will more than pull its weight in this spot. For a lesser card I would say to keep both but making room for FoF is a noble cause to give one of the two the boot. Do you really like playing both here?
Wickerbough vs Trygon? I think I actually don't like either one of these. Wickerbough has no special synergy with the deck and -1/-1 counters, and Trygon is great early but just terrible late game. I would try Ingot Chewer or Manic Vandal or Viridian Emissary in this slot. The latter two are tutorable with Recruiter too :-). Actually I would prefer Ancient Grudge but you are not crazy about non-creatures and I totally understand that.
Anyway you ought to see some positive impact there with those changes, or at least the ones you enact. What do you think?
Myself, I've been thinking of cutting Top for Sylvan Library. Top is tutorable with Trinket Mage and is nearly impossible to kill, but the Library has free activations and can draw you 3 if you need it. Crazy? Maybe...
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Good thoughts, as always, my friend.
Tectonic Edge -> Kessig Wolf Run. I like that idea, thanks for pointing it out.
Island -> Tolaria West I'm interested to see how much I use this. 3 mana is a lot. But if you need it, you need it - like you said. Putting a land tutor in also makes me feel better about cutting the Tec. Edge, above.
Patten of Rebirth -> Fierce Empath. This is a good fit, and makes a lot of sense. Like you said, Pattern can be messed up terribly, and Empath has a lot of synergy with everything else. Thanks for the suggestion. And *gasp* I can't cut the Bogardan Hellkite! I've won my last 4 games off of him! He's carried swords, been Rite of Replicated, bounced, recast, Riku doubled, Kiki-Jiki doubled... all manner of shenanigans! And such great value every time!! Each time I've won a game off of him, I always think, "Sonik is a freaking genius for suggesting that I play this guy instead of Simic Sky Swallower or Inkwell Leviathan", the other dudes I was considering for that slot.
Life From the Loam -> Fact or Fiction. I think you and I look at duplicate functionality very differently. This has struck me over the course of our discussions. If something is very important to me, I want two (or more!) of them, so I can be sure I have it, especially in a deck of 99 singleton cards, especially where I can't tutor for the thing we're talking about (whether it's Crystal Shard/Erratic Portal, or Crucilble/Loam). The times when you would draw both of them would be very minimal, given the odds, and even then it's not always bad because if one thing got destroyed, you'd absolutely want to draw the other one! So I think we're on a different wavelength here, which I find very interesting. That being said, however - I'm going to make this change. I think it will work out just fine. I was always a *little* hesitant about the dredge thing anyway. So I'll keep the Crucible.
Wickerbough Elder discussion: I originally had Indrik Stomphowler in this slot, which *is* an ETB dude. But he costs 5 (Riku cost). Wickerbough costs 4, and he can actually deter multiple artifacts/echantments just by chilling on the board. He's not an ETB dude per se, but he costs the same amount to kill something as Indrik, and he gets his counter back if I bounce him (which is some synergy). Anyway - I'm hesitant to put any of those in that you suggested (although I do really like the ones you suggested (but did you really mean to suggest Viridian Emissary? That's a ramp dude, not a destroy stuff dude)), because they don't also kill enchantments, and I've seen some really nasty ones out there, and it worries me to cut more removal types (esp. after cutting Woodfall Primus). Hrmm. And... are you sure that Trygon is bad late game? What makes you say that? Because he doesn't have haste or an ETB? He's also tutorable with Imperial Recruiter.
I did a gatherer search just now, and here are some more possible candidates for the Wickerbough slot - i.e. dudes that kill both artifacts and enchantments: Viridian Zealot (not an ETB, but he's copiable with Riku/Kiki-Jiki), Sylvok Replica (same), or Nantuko Vigilante (I could bounce and re-use this - couldn't copy it for the effect, though). They all have some synergy with my engines, and the first two are tutorable with Recruiter (which Wickerbough isn't, so he probably needs to be replaced anyway). I like the Zealot's cost and extra tutorability - although keeping 2 mana open all the time... that part sucks. Do you think I'm overestimating the importance of enchantment removal? If so, I should probably just go with Manic Vandal. I wish I could put another Acidic Slime in! He's versatile, tutorable, Natural Order-able, deathtouch, etc. I dunno... all things considered... I'm really thinking I might go with the Trygon here. Tutortable with recruiter, cheap at 3 mana, likes being copied or stuck on a Mimic Vat. Natural Order-able if I want, hold swords like a champ...
Top for Sylvan Library... that's actually... really interesting. I rather like that, I think. Hmm. You're very right about how Sylvan can be much better in a lot of situations, since it can actually refill your hand at the cost of some life. Top does it much less effectively, and if it does do it, it messes up your next draw, which is a pretty big disadvantage. I'm liking this idea a lot. I think I'll probably end up doing it, I just need to think about it for a bit first. Bravo on the idea, I think it's a very powerful change. (like I said, I really don't ever tutor for top anyway) I can't believe Library only costs 2. Wow.
Oh! One more thought! Let's talk about Voyager Staff vs. Ghostly Flicker for a moment. Ghostly Flicker flickers 2 things, and is copiable with Riku (as long as you don't target the same 2 things, as you pointed out). Voyager Staff, however, is tutorable with Trinket Mage, recurrable with Academy Ruins, and can be used against an opponent's creature. So... almost seems like it could either way on that one, almost? Thoughts?
:symu::symr::symg:Riku of Two Reflections (ETB toolbox)
:symw::symb::symr:Kaalia of the Vast Reanimator
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Karona's Proliferating Allies
Teferi, mage of Zhalfir
Fierce Empath will be awesome for you. I am always happy to draw that guy.
I wish I could make room for the Hellkite. He seems so awesome to abuse. He's like the PERFECT Flash target. I play Woodfall Primus now for my one 8-drop because of the persist interaction that just works amazingly with clones. If I end up adding more beaters of that size it'll either be that behemoth or the Hellkite. Thanks for making me feel smart for suggesting him
On the multiple functionality thing- you know what I realized, Intuition makes a big difference for me. I am able to tutor for pretty much any card I want with that. In the case of artifacts, I get Crucible, Academy and whatever artifact I want. So between that, Gamble, and the other tutors, plus regrowth effects, and I tend to gravitate towards singleton functionality. Without Intuition, however, your approach might be the better way to go after all.
Hahahahaha yeah, derp, I meant Viridian Zealot. Slip of the brain I guess heh heh Nice one covering for me there. That ETB artifact kill card spot could really be any of the guys we both brought up so don't lose sleep over that slot. As for predator being poor late game, I just believe opponents are much more likely to have blockers for him after the first few turns. And with only 2 power and no way to bust him through, I'm just not a fan. At least with someone like the Vandals, you get the effect without jumping through hoops and you can still get the effect more than once via Riku, bounce shenanigans, clones, etc. It just seems like he does the hard work for you in comparison to the predator. (btw if you want him to be Natural Orderable, try Uktabi Orangutan or Viridian Corrupter).
Voyager Staff: Being a fan of shiny new things though I'd probably like, to try out the blue instant because it's new and I'd like to see how it works. I think it's stupid underrated in the format though. Sharuum decks play it 100% of the time but it's great in U/X that have Academy Ruins.
I haven't sleeved up my full-power Riku deck in a little while because I've been teaching some guys how to play this format and I don't want to be all like RIKU SMASH YOUR PUNY DECK every game. It will be awesome to get around to it again though. I think I'm going to try my hand at Bruna next. I've been itching to try something new and she seems like a perfect Commander for the job.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
I think I'm going to go ahead and go Sensei's Divining Top -> Sylvan Library, by the way. I've been thinking about it a lot. I know it's sacrilege to cut the top, but it's super cool that the library can fill your hand for a bit of life. I think that can pull you out of some jams if you need it to.
I am having so much trouble deciding between Trygon Predator, Viridian Zealot, and Uktabi Orangutan. I've been going back and forth between them all day, thinking about it. Every time I make up my mind, I change it again. They each have their big merits and big drawbacks. I think I'm going to try out the Trygon and see how I like him. For now. My biggest reason for putting him there is that in my meta there are decks that are completely Enchantment based, and also decks that are completely artifact based (Karn). And having to bounce Acidic Slime to cast and recast him time and time again to get rid of problem stuff doesn't sound very mana efficient, when Trygon can do it for free if he has a clear path. This is one of those things where playtesting should be able to tell me the best answer, I think.
Oh! You should make the primer for Bruna!! Do it! Doooo eeeeeet! You know you want to! ;-D
Thanks for all the help and thoughts, by the way. Like I said, I appreciate it like... super much. And I know what you mean about this being a powerful deck! It has far, far exceeded my expectations from when I started putting it together. I thought it would be kinda funny, goofy, silly, etc., but... turns out it's a serious contender at the table usually. I'm often the guy who everyone else is responding to.
:symu::symr::symg:Riku of Two Reflections (ETB toolbox)
:symw::symb::symr:Kaalia of the Vast Reanimator
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Karona's Proliferating Allies
Teferi, mage of Zhalfir