So, you wanna play something a little different: you think combo decks that totally own everybody in one turn are boring, you’re tired of armies of little tokens, getting in there with just your general for 21 is just not as exciting as it used to be…
Lemme tell you, I’ve been there before. But you’re in luck today! You may have just stumbled onto the cure for all your
problems. Read on, my dear forum-going friend, and learn the secrets of this mystical man-deer-ghost-thing. Who knows? He might be the answer to your prayers. Or he’s here for your soul to add to his army of undead. Whichever.
You Might Like This Deck If
You like having answers to just about everything
You don’t mind shuffling (you’re gonna be tutoring a lot)
You enjoy using the grave as a resource
You like getting lots of value out of everything you play (and replay, and replay)
You want to sweep the board constantly
You’re a hoopy frood who knows where your towel is (someone catch this reference? or at least google it…)
You Might Not Like This Deck If
You want to combo off in some way
You like decks that have a linear strategy
You don’t like losing your own stuff
You don’t like interacting with your opponents
You enjoy killing puppies and kittens (in which case, you might wanna seek help...)
If you're still reading, I believe I can safely assume that you haven't harmed any animals in the making of your decklist. In that case, let's go!
. But seriously, why THIS guy?!
Alright, alright! Jeez, you guys are pushy. Fine, I guess this guy needs a little more introduction. Karador offers a somewhat common strategy within the EDH format, which is “Reanimator,” but his colors allow him to put a unique “Rock” style spin on it (we’ll get to those in a minute). What this means is that you will be recasting and recasting your creatures over and over, while controlling the board with lots of wrath effects and spot removal. Now, naturally there are other legendary creatures that allow you to return permanents of some sort from the graveyard either to your hand or to play. Glissa, the Traitor, Hanna, Ship's Navigator, and Sharuum the Hegemon all allow you to return artifacts, but none can return creatures. Bladewing the Risen and Wort, Boggart Auntie allow you to return creatures, but they require you to play a particular creature type, and while tribal is cool and all, that isn’t what the big man is looking for. Adun Oakenshield, in addition to his badass name, allows you to return dudes to your hand from the grave, but only to your hand. Karador scoffs at this petty need to pay to return and THEN pay to recast them. Why not just grab them out of the yard in one fell swoop? No response? Duh, there isn’t one.
Now, I mentioned that we’d be discussing colors here. There’s red, yellow, blue, and then orange, green, purple… OH! Right, Magic colors. Karador sits squarely in the “Necra” wedge, which is referred to as “Junk” in Legacy. You’ve got some other options for generals here, but none of them offer the exact flavorful blend that our dearly departed deer does (say THAT ten times fast). Doran, the Siege Tower provides a nicely costed beatstick, which meshes nicely with the Rock playstyle; you can commit to the board in small bits, freeing up your mana for removal spells later on. But there’s just no recursion there, so out he goes. Ghave, Guru of Spores is a really solid general if you’re aiming for some token swarms or combo shenanigans, but he lacks the same thing Doran does: recursion. That just leaves the original BGW wedge general: Teneb, the Harvester. He seems to be everything we want: recursion, correct color scheme, a big scary dragon, the list goes on and on. As you’ll see below, the deck started out with him at the helm. Unfortunately, he needs to land a hit before you can reanimate things. Karador lets you do that any time you wish to (nearly), so he became the obvious choice for the deck as it is today.
. Alright, you’ve convinced me. But what does the deck look like?
I’ll show you, but only because you asked SO nicely. Not only will I show you, I’ll give you TWO decklists! Sure, they’re the same thing in different orders, but there are TWO of them! The numbers next to the card name indicate their converted mana cost, except for non-basic lands. They all have a one in front of them so they’ll show up as hyperlinks. Thank you deck tags! Anyway, enjoy.
. Pretty sweet looking list ya got there, but why is that card in there, and why isn’t this one?
First of all, thank you. Second, I’m glad you asked. I’ll address those concerns separately, for your convenience. Let’s start with the: . Card-by-Card Breakdown
I felt like I just HAD to spoiler-tag this, but that's probably better than scrolling through the miles of text that are floating around... Anyway, we’ll look at each section individually, and describe in some detail why the card is holding the spot as opposed to something else.
The General Himself
Karador, Ghost Chieftain - Well, I guess I said I would explain everything, but this guy should be obvious. He is the backbone of the deck, even if he technically lacks one himself. He gives us the colors we want to work with, he tends to stay cheap since most of your little utility guys end up in the grave anyway, and he makes your graveyard into a second hand, at least where creatures are concerned. Hard to top that kind of efficiency. He’s the big man in charge, and is proud to be where he is today.
Good Stuff
Avenger of Zendikar – Holy hell, this guy has a lot of little friends. Every ramp spell in the deck helps here, fetches become even better, and you can just use stuff like Skullclamp to draw absurd amounts of cards. A great way to finish the game, and to make lots of people rethink gardening as a hobby.
Gaddock Teeg - This guy is a later addition to the party, but he's a really powerful buddy to have. I did the math, and he only stops 9 cards in the deck. I'll take those odds, personally. He stops annoying good cards that your opponents can play, and since you rely almost entirely on creatures with this deck, he doesn't really hinder you. Plus, he is SO easily recurrable.
Genesis Wave – Only thing I have learned is that in a deck that relies mostly on creatures to accomplish its ends, this card is an absolute house. Completely changes the game, and makes for huge plays late in the game.
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - I wasn't too impressed with our new Golgari friend, until I happened to notice that his ability didn't require you to tap him, and that it said "each opponent." My perception permanently changed, I added him as soon as he came out. Dude is just TOO much fun. Hurl your friends at your friends faces' and watch the life totals fall.
Kokusho, the Evening Star - I didn't expect to see this guy unbanned. For now, he will just be an awesome placeholder, but this slot may be permanently taken by the Dragon Spirit. Only time will tell.
Mindslicer - Sometimes, you just can't deal with what your opponents are playing. If that's the case, make sure they CAN'T play it. Counterspells, you say? What, Dash Hopes and Mana Tithe? No thank you. Just make them chuck them! And with this guy, you can make everyone dump their hand over and over, which is something you can rebuild from WAY faster than anyone else.
Yosei, the Morning Star - This dude is late to the party, but BOY is he making a splash. A huge rattlesnake card, plus it gives us ways of playing a SERIOUS control deck. This guy is all he is cracked up to be, even without the infinite combos.
Removal
Acidic Slime – This guy is a pro when he comes in, and can hold the fort due to his awesome ability to kill any creature who attacks on the ground. Reveillark and he are friends too, so everything works out well.
Angel of Despair – One of my favorites in the deck. A Vindicate on legs (and wings), what’s not to love?
Austere Command – The best sweeper in the format, and my favorite white EDH card. The versatility this provides is unreal, and I can usually maneuver so that I don’t lose much, while my opponents lose it all.
Beast Within – When I first saw this card, I pooped enough bricks to build a schoolhouse. An instant speed Vindicate that’s more easily splashable with a negligible drawback? Sign me up. Every time.
Bone Shredder – He flies, he chumps, he goes to the grave by himself (didn’t even have to house train him), he can be recurred with Reveillark or Sun Titan, this guy is just one neat little package. The limits on what he can blow up do kinda suck, but he’s been good to me since the beginning.
Damnation – It was this or Wrath of God, and I picked up the full-art promo pretty cheap, so I went with this one. Pretty standard, drops a nuke on the field, makes everyone else sad, but it’s “fair” because it hits everyone. It also makes Karador cost a lot less a lot of the time, which makes it less of a disadvantage for you.
Fleshbag Marauder – He’s ugly, he probably smells, but man does he get the job done. He provides the body to sacrifice, he equally screws all your opponents, and can be brought back (at arms length) with Sun Titan. Pretty good deal.
Maelstrom Pulse - This thing is a house. Nukes tokens, nukes planeswalkers, nukes almost everything, all for three mana. What else can you ask for?
Mortify – Gotta love those full-art promos. Instant speed removal with some versatility. If only Vindicate were instant speed…
Necrotic Sliver – Harmonic Sliver’s other half, and part two of the package. He turns the two little guys into Vindicates with legs. When both come into play at the same time, then leave play at the same time, I tend to smile, because that’s four pesky permanents down the drain.
Oblation – This beautiful piece of work was brought to my attention by my man Warden, who’s a mod here on Salvation’s Legacy forums. Not only can this tuck pesky generals, but it can be used defensively to hold onto your own necessary stuff, usually to protect it from exile.
Path to Exile & Swords to Plowshares – These guys do the same thing: take out troublesome creatures for really cheap. In this format, the drawbacks are negligible, so fling these suckers right and left to ensure you take care of business.
Pernicious Deed – One of my favorite politicking cards in the game, this thing alone can keep you in the game through fear. People don’t like to lose their stuff, but this deck has already accepted losing its stuff as part of the game plan.
Putrefy – Another full-art promo, this one helping spread my removal options as well. Artifacts tend to be more of a problem in the format (in my experience at least) than enchantments, so I find myself casting this one more often.
Qasali Pridemage – That little attack boost is nice I suppose, but what we really want here is this guy’s phenomenal ability to take out permanents. He falls into our two big categories for recursion as well (Reveillark and Sun Titan), so he has always been a shoe in.
Terastodon – This guy was like the precursor to Beast Within. I couldn’t believe that much power was thrown into one card. The drawback is negligible, and you get the ability to hit pretty much everything.
Vindicate - I always say I won't play this card, cuz it was too expensive, or because I just didn't own it. Well, I caved. And now I have it. It is everything it promises to be. Destroy anything. And yes, it is both selfish, AND wronged (I can't believe I made that reference).
Woodfall Primus - So, this guy is pretty silly. He's a huge body, he has Persist (remember all those cool interactions he has with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed) and he blows up non-creatures. We can handle creatures pretty well, so let's blow out the non-critter options and take it from there. More destruction! MORE! MUAHAHA! (Ahem, sorry.)
Recursion
Eternal Witness – Witness has been a staple in plenty of formats, and EDH is no different. She is just too good, has all sorts of shenanigans that can happen, and is easily recurrable. Plus, she loves her some Skullclamp.
Karmic Guide – One of the best cards in the deck, she can chump block like a champ, and is absurd when she can be replayed again and again. Not really much I can say about her beyond the fact that she is incredible.
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed – This guy is pure sex. Okay, not creepy, necrophiliac, zombie sex, but delicious recursion and card advantage sex. I cannot say enough good things about Mr. Mikey, except that he is so fine, and he blows my mind. Seriously, card interacts with almost the whole deck.
Reveillark – Another of the lynchpins in the deck, this powerhouse almost didn’t make the cut once upon a time. Since then, I’ve ensured that it’s well used by sprinkling in creatures it can bring back for cheap across all the sections of the deck.
Saffi Eriksdotter - Alright, so I caved. I hated the idea of infinite combos SO much that I wouldn't go near someone with so much infinite potential. Thing is, the only instant speed sac outlet in this deck will mill you out before you can go infinite, so I think it's safe to put this chick in. And MAN does she deliver. Great with your sacrifice lands (High Market and Phyrexian Tower and any creatures with effects that trigger on entering or leaving play. Solid card, reusable with Reveillark and Sun Titan, goes great with the rest of the deck... Just an absolute house, and without pesky infinite combos to compromise my integrity. Nifty!
Sheoldred, Whispering One – This bad girl took over for Debtors’ Knell when New Phyrexia was spoiled. Cost the same, was able to block, AND punished opponents? Plus, being a creature, I could tutor for it and recur it much more easily.
Sun Titan – Another of the major players, this guy has been nothing short of beautiful in this deck. I play enough small utility guys that he always gives me value. Or, when I need land, he can help ramp (sort of) using fetches in the grave.
Tutor & Draw
Birthing Pod - Holy hell, was I stubborn! I didn't like this card because I didn't want to build my whole deck around it. Apparently, fate had other plans, since most of my creature curve smoothed out anyway, and now I just HAVE to play this powerhouse. It does everything we could possibly want, and who needs a life total anyway?
Buried Alive – This one happened when I made the switch to Karador, and is now one of the best tutors in the deck. Grabs what you want to reanimate, makes the general cheaper, this is just everything the deck wants and more.
Defense of the Heart – This one was recommended to me by a friend of mine, saying his Teneb, the Harvester list would be better than mine until I got one of these puppies. He was right, and this thing is just amazing when people try to race you. It easily made it in the switch to Karador.
Demonic Tutor – This is just the best tutor in the format. For 2, you get anything you want. No stipulations, no drawbacks, just what you want. Period.
Diabolic Intent – This essentially functions as Demonic #2, and as a bonus it puts a dude into the grave for Karador. Use with your Enters the Battlefield guys (or Leaves the Battlefield) to great effect with this one.
Disciple of Bolas - I actually giggled a little when I first read this card. It was as though the R&D gods had heard my prayers. I needed a way to gain life in this deck, and I was always looking to draw more cards. Just like that, this little gem gets printed. Sure, it doesn't play well with Sun Titan of Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, but other than that it is perfect. Llarkable, Clampable, and it's a 4-drop, which I always need. I love it.
Eladamri’s Call – This bad boy is incredibly useful. It grabs you anyone you want, at instant speed (which can defend against Bribery and the like), and drops them right into your hand, all for the lowly cost of 2. Pretty nifty.
Entomb - Thank you Graveborn! I finally can get one of these and not feel bad about it. This is like a Demonic Tutor at instant speed for B when Karador is out. What could be better?! I ask you!
Fierce Empath – This guy is a pro at tutoring up my best win conditions. Plus, he is easily recurrable, and he wears Skullclamp like a boss. And he chumps in a pinch. I was skeptical at first, but especially since New Phyrexia and Sheoldred, Whispering One he has been invaluable.
Greater Good - This is better than just everyday, average good. Put dudes back in the yard? Check. Dodge tucking and exiling? Check. Draws cards and puts MORE dudes in the yard? Check, and check. Sign me up.
Grisly Salvage - This is a late addition to the party, but it's good at ALL points of the game. Early game it nabs lands and fills the grave with more gas for Karador, and late game it gives you a dude to play WHILE STILL FILLING THE GRAVE WITH MORE GAS FOR KARADOR. It's instant speed too? My body is ready.
Phyrexian Arena – Ah, one of my favorite cards to play. It perfectly fits in with black’s slice of the color pie, and people don’t seem to mind if I use it for a while. Sun Titan gets it back, and Sylvan Library utilizes it nicely.
Rune-Scarred Demon - From the moment I saw this bad boy spoiled in M12, I knew he was going in. Let me tell you folks, he does NOT disappoint. With a huge evasive body, the ability to tutor, and the fact that he's easily recurrable, he's been an absolute house.
Sensei’s Divining Top – Fixing your draws since Kamigawa block. Nothing I could say would do this card justice. It’s tough to kill, and makes every draw that much better. Every deck should run one.
Skullclamp – This was an odd choice to me at first, then I realized just how insane it can be when paired with the right creatures. It also makes blocking a lot less desirable. Who knows what kind of answers you’re going to draw.
Survival of the Fittest – My new baby. This thing does everything Karador wants: dumps dudes, gets more dudes. A total winner.
Sylvan Library – I picked this up on a whim, and it has become one of my favorite cards. It too fixes draws, but it lets you pay useless stuff like life for MORE CARDS. Who needs life anyway? We are playing Magic, after all.
Tooth and Nail – One of the best tutors in the format, you get to hunt down whomever you need next, and then cheat two huge guys into play. Beautiful things can happen with this.
Ramp/Fixing
Farhaven Elf - A wise friend of mine told me that since my general recurs creatures, I should be playing lots of creatures. What a shock, he was correct. This little Rampant Growth on legs is Clamp fodder, a good chump blocker, and grabs me lands. She's perfect.
Farseek – This one has been pretty solid for me. It’s a cheap way to go digging for my Shock lands and get them into play early. Simple, elegant, and effective.
Mirari’s Wake – One of the best cards in its color, this enchantment supercharges your lands. You’ll be dumping your hand consistently with this thing on the field, and your guys are just a little better at dodging damage.
Nature's Lore - A friend of mine asked me the following question: why would I want my ramp spells, which are supposed to accelerate me, to cost more than 3, which is when I wanna start casting threats? Completely devoid of an answer, I added this gem, and haven't looked back.
Oracle of Mul Daya – I absolutely adore this card. In addition to playing nicely with Reveillark, she ramps me. But the best thing that she does is that she filters my draws, so I’m less likely to draw into land.
Sol Ring – Yeah, this thing. If you’re playing by the official ban list on the EDH website, this thing has to be in your deck. There might as well be a rule that says it. It’s THAT good.
Solemn Simulacrum - The ultimate ramp card for decks not running green, this guy never made it into my list until now. I figured, "I run green, why do I need him?" The answer is simple: he's just that good. Does everything we want, is Llark-able, and adds an artifact creature to the list. What's not to love about this sad robot?
Wood Elves - Ramps? Check. Returnable via Reveillark? Check. What about Sun Titan? Check. Clampable too? Check. Dear god, this thing is solid. There are no downsides, specially since duals are now present here.
Yavimaya Elder – I almost took this poor guy out at one point, but he is just too fancy to get rid of. He helps you ramp and draws you cards, and is easy to recur. What’s not to love?
Lands
Bayou, Savannah, and Scrubland - I never thought I would own these, and yet here they are. The original duals are still the best color fixers out there, and if they're in your budget, get on them. You won't be disappointed.
Bojuka Bog – Every deck needs grave hate, and this is my best example. Plus, I can bounce it with the Karoo lands when necessary for another round.
Command Tower – The newest land to the bunch, this gem is the best land for multicolor EDH decks every time. You don’t get better fixing than this.
Fetid Heath, Twilight Mire, and Wooded Bastion – The filter lands were always favorites of mine, and do some of the most impressive mana-fixing in this deck. I also had these before I had the shocks, so they have some sentimental value.
Forest, Plains, & Swamp – These are so necessary. Best cards in the deck, hands down. Don't believe me huh? Didn't think so. Seriously though, I need a fair amount of basics purely based on the ramp I use, and 2 of each has been the magic number for me.
Ghost Quarter, Strip Mine & Tectonic Edge – I originally didn’t run any form of land destruction. Since then, I have learned the error of my ways. You need the ability to bomb out troublesome lands like Academy Ruins or Gaea's Cradle. And I can hear you saying sardonically, "IceBear, you run ABR duals and you're running Tectonic Edge instead of Wasteland?" Listen you, I don't own one. Maybe one day I will, and that swap will happen. Until then, use your imagination instead of looking down your nose at me. Ghost Quarter is staying though: hits any land and I see WAY too many decks running few to no basics lately. Let's make those people question their choices, shall we?
Godless Shrine, Overgrown Tomb, and Temple Garden – These guys are great alternatives if you can’t get ABR duals. I’ve had them forever, and they are just quality. Who needs life in this format anyway? They give you 40 for a reason.
High Market – Too many good things to say about this land. Any time someone tries to steal something, sac it. Any time you need one more dude in the grave, sac it. Anytime something sweet is on the field, or an opponent tries to jack one of your dudes, sac it. Just too good for words.
Isolated Chapel, Sunpetal Grove, Woodland Cemetery - I wasn't terribly impressed with these cards when they first came out, but now that we have the entire set, they seem like excellent cheap fixing. I've been really pleased with how these have come out.
Krosan Verge – The first fetch land (sort of) I owned, this thing has always been good to ramp me along, or to at least hunt down the shocks to help me fix my mana. The format is slow enough that coming into play tapped isn’t so bad.
Marsh Flats, Verdant Catacombs, and Windswept Heath – The true fetch lands, I didn’t own these for a very long time. They’re incredibly useful, and I’ll undersell them every time. I don’t use off-color fetches for a few reasons: it would cut into my number of basics, I don’t like the idea from a flavor perspective, and paying 1 life to only be able to grab a Plains seems pretty useless to me.
Murmuring Bosk - This card was one I ignored for a long time, but I realize now that it's just too good to not play. Makes all my colors, and though it comes into play tapped (not that big a deal), it can be tutored with fetchlands and useful spells. An absolute winner.
Phyrexian Tower - I wanted to test this bad boy out as another sac outlet, and it has paid dividends, as expected. Another champ, and it produces double the mana. Only downside is that it's legendary, and that other people own them.
Reflecting Pool – This card does some absolutely excellent fixing. So long as you have something that produces more than one color, you are in great shape.
Sandsteppe Citadel - I always liked the Shard lands back in Alara block, so I was super excited to find out the enemy wedges were getting them to. So in this card went, simple as that. Literally took zero thought.
Temple of the False God – Another EDH staple that belongs in almost any deck that isn’t REALLY color intensive (read: 5-color). It’s always a welcome sight, and really helps accelerate you into the next phase of the game.
Vesuva – There are lots of good lands out there. Why not borrow one for yourself? This also doubles as removal for pesky legendary lands that may be floating around in most playgroups.
.
Does that explain everything in there for you? Now as for what isn’t in here:
Notable Omissions
Hermit Druid – This guy, while useful in some decks, doesn’t have much of a place with me. I’ve seen him do some silly-good things to enable combos, but I am just not a fan (as you can see in the section above with my statement on combos in general).
Golgari Grave-Troll and his ilk – I’ve seen a lot of lists run the dredge strategy with Karador, and I gotta say I am skeptical. One well-timed piece of grave hate and it’s game over. It’s a pretty cool idea, and it enables Karador like a champ, but it feels like it’s putting all its eggs in one basket, and they’re going for more than a bakers dozen.
Debtors' Knell - As much as I loved this card, I had few reliable tutors to find it, and fewer ways to bring it back should it get nuked. I opted to put Sheoldred, Whispering One in this spot, since I could fetch her, and recur her when things got bad. It was a tough cut, but I haven't looked back since.
TheMirrodins’ cycleofSwords – I understand that all of these are powerful equipments, and that they make some extreme improvements to pretty much any creature. That said, I rarely find myself wanting them, and I don’t honestly know what I would take out for them. They make a fine package with Stoneforge Mystic, but it just isn’t my personal plan.
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter – This guy is absolutely bananas. I completely understand why people love running him, but he somewhat warped my deck. The entire thing became more focused on combos that you can utilize with him, and it just was not nearly as fun for me. Still, he is a powerful finisher, and can make for some sweet plays, so I can totally understand the appeal.
Martyred Rusalka – I have seen several lists run this card (several of which can be found in a section below), and it can be a very nice deterrent to attackers. If you see a whole bunch of tokens in your meta, or for that matter an abundance of Eldrazi, then you should give this guy a shot. Plus, he is SO easy to recur!
Any of the one-shot Reanimate spells – These are pretty cute, but the entire point of playing a general is to have access to him/her/it all the time, so these always felt unnecessary to me. The only one worth considering is Animate Dead, since Sun Titan can get it back.
Viscera Seer – This guy enables you to do all sorts of cool things. He fixes your draws, is easy to replay, and has some bonkers synergy with the deck at large. That said, it tended to lead to too many infinite combo situations, which I try to avoid. Pretty much any instant speed, free, repeatable sac outlet can.
Life From the Loam – I used to have this in here, and it was a pretty nifty addition. Once I dropped the cycling lands, this became less useful. If you find yourself running lots of fetches and cycling lands, this is an all-star. If you don’t, it tends to just be cute. You could also be a very bad person with Strip Mine and this card, but we won’t go there. I’m sure you’re all very nice people.
Genesis – I found that paying to recur things is really such a drag when other creatures do it for free when they come into play, or recur them by themselves.
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite – Honestly, I would be running her (I think it’s a her, but I am NOT giving that pelvic exam) if I owned one, but the price tag is too high to justify acquiring one. Ignore the ABR duals once again, please. I don't CURRENTLY have the money.
Crucible of Worlds – See my above post. I don’t run into enough land destruction or use enough fetches to justify having one of these in here. It’s always been a thought, but one that I have tried to ignore. And it only gets less likely to be included as time goes on; seriously, that thing is expensive.
Reya Dawnbringer – She used to be one of my favorite cards, but Sheoldred, Whispering One came along and outclassed her. I really wish I hadn’t had to cut her, but sometimes one does what one must.
Green Sun's Zenith and Chord of Calling – GSZ was a little too mana intensive. A buddy of mine pointed out that Chord of Calling is potentially better than Eladamri's Call, since you drop the dude right into play, but I find myself leaving up two mana at the end of a turn and slamming Call right then. That one is really a matter of preference, since getting a dude at instant speed is sweet, but I find that I prefer Call.
Seedborn Muse – This card was in my list for a long time. It allows for some fun interactions, gives you nice protection from your opponents swinging back into you, and allows for more instant speed shenanigans. If you want to play Winding Canyons, you GOTTA try this sucker out. For me though, it just didn’t feel relevant enough.
True Believer – This deck doesn’t like pesky Tormod's Crypt effects. They scare the crap out of Karador if you don’t play carefully, but this little guy helps save you from them. As soon as I started using him though, my playgroup started using Relic of Progenitus, so he felt a little less relevant. You win some, you lose some I guess.
Kodama's Reach & Cultivate – These were both originally in the list (since the very first game, in Reach’s case), but they eventually got cut for Wood Elves and Farhaven Elf. What can I say, I like me some creatures.
Bloodgift Demon & Graveborn Muse – I love drawing cards, Phyrexian Arena is one of my favorite enchantments of all time, and these guys emulate that philosophy. So why don’t I play them? They got outshined by things like Sylvan Library, Greater Good, and Disciple of Bolas. Sorry guys, but anything more than three mana for this kind of effect is lame.
Archon of Justice – This guy used to be a house at five mana. He would come in, be scary, and then I would sac him to High Market to remove a threat permanently. He really was a champ, but I found myself wanting him less and less, so out he went.
Dauntless Escort – Another former inclusion, this guy made my wraths nice and one-sided. That said, I don’t really mind my dudes ending up in the graveyard, and short of a whole swarm of plant tokens from an Avenger of Zendikar, I didn’t need to protect them all that much.
Any tutor that puts the card on top of my library – These just always proved too slow. Give me a good old Demonic Tutor any day.
Magus of the Disk – I always say I want unconditional wrath effects in these colors, in creature form. This guy seems like an obvious inclusion, but he ended up being too slow, always coming down a turn when I needed him and not being able to blow stuff up. Rather sad, really.
. Well, uh, that’s nice and all, but how does it work?
This right here folks is the meat and potatoes of this thread. Sure, you can read my decklist and nod approvingly (or shake your head in disgust of my naïveté, whatever your preference), but that isn’t gonna help you when you sleeve it up yourself. Never fear, my dear reader; this section is for you. Let’s attempt to do this is some semblance of order and talk about the big, broad topics first. Let’s start with why this deck is awesome, and who is out to ruin its fun.
. Strengths and Weaknesses
Let’s start with the deck’s strengths. It is uniquely adept in one particular facet: its sense of inevitability. Everything about the list screams, “I’ll still be here when you’re done!” That’s the center of the entire strategy with this deck, to endure everything your opponents can throw at you, then strike back when they’ve exhausted themselves. This overall strength is made up of several other strong notes that interlock perfectly.
The first is the combination of the deck’s colors making up some of the strongest recursion colors in the format. Black and white are notorious for being incredibly strong in their ability to reanimate creatures, while green has had Regrowth effects since the beginning. It doesn’t hurt that this combination of colors has not one, but two generals who strongly support the reanimation theme. This partially ties into the main idea of inevitability in the sense that once everyone’s creatures have died, yours can keep returning for more party time. Nifty.
These colors have another great strength: removal. Sweepers, spot removal, means of exiling creatures and permanents, these colors enable all this and more. If you need a permanent taken care of, this deck can take care of that for you. With all of this removal floating around, you can ensure that your opponents don’t get to keep their shiny new toys. The decks inevitability is helped here as well, as is its reanimator themes: if you nuke the board, your dudes end up in the grave, where they can slowly conga line their way back up to the land of the living. Meanwhile, your opponents have to deal with the same few dudes coming back for more, while theirs continually end up in the garbage.
Another great power the deck has under its belt is its access to ALL the tutors. You get all the shiny black ones that fetch whatever you want, green’s ability to look for creatures, and white’s ability to hunt down artifacts and enchantments. Some of these tutors even require you to sacrifice dudes, or chuck them into your graveyard, which furthers our first strength nicely, and all that tutoring ability allows us to hunt down silver bullets to deal with any situation that may arise, which helps with the second.
Now, all this sounds a little too good to be true. The deck has GOTTA be weak to something, right? Removal clearly doesn’t stop it, since we just get our dudes back, and our dudes get other stuff back. Counter spells likewise tend to put everything into the graveyard, which is really our playground as well. Well folks, the catch comes in two places, but they share one thing: the exile zone. Some removal causes you to exile creatures, which puts them out of our reach. This somewhat rains on our parade.
The only thing scarier than that is removal that *gasp* exiles entire graveyards. Grave hate is VERY pervasive right now in this format, and it requires this deck to be constantly vigilant. Combating grave hate can be done in one of three ways. First, there are two cards, Riftsweeper and Pull From Eternity, which allow you to retrieve cards from the exile zone. These are nice (one is even a creature, a nice bonus in this deck), but they can be a little narrow. The second is to play cards like Praetor's Grasp and Sadistic Sacrament, which allow you to snag those pesky hate cards right out of your opponents’ decks. I like this option more, but since there are no creatures that can do this (aside from Earwig Squad, which I dislike), I tend to avoid this option. Plus, it targets only one person at a time; everyone else can gang up on you after you manhandle (or womanhandle) one of your opponents.
The third method, and the one I prefer, is to not simply put all of ones eggs into one basket. Sure, you can drop some threats, toss some dudes into your graveyard, and be a big fancy reanimator deck, but don’t attempt to drop your entire deck in there at once. Drop a few threats, maybe chuck one or two dudes into the grave, and use those. Keeping some more gas in hand will allow you to not get totally hosed when your opponents play a Bojiggle Biggle. Feel out your opponents plays, pace yourself, and look for the right moment to reanimate some dudes. Plus, you save deck-space this way, so you can toss in more threats and cool tricks! Saving you space AND giving you advice: I’m a real wizard sometimes.
Oh, I suppose there is one more way that problems can arise for you. The deck is a WEE bit slow, and it may occasionally have trouble dealing with VERY early beats. Generally though, you can stall those agro decks long enough to drop a sweeper (or a Maelstrom Pulse if you are dealing with pesky tokens) and make them cry. Hopefully not too many tears though, these people are supposed to be your friends, so play nice now (mostly)!
Now you know what’s great about the deck and what isn’t. Here comes the real nitty-gritty: I’m going to teach you how to play this deck. Be attentive, my star pupils, and you shall go on to do great things with this list.
. IceBear’s Karador, Ghost Chieftain for Dummies
Let’s start at the very beginning: first there was nothing, and then the universe was created. This was widely regarded as a bad move. Wait, too far back? Okay. So you draw your opening seven, and the first thing you need to do is evaluate what’s good and what isn’t. Every group does mulligan rules differently, but you will always be looking for the same few things: you will look for several lands (two to three is an acceptable number, but those risky one-landers are possible), some ramp spells, possibly some cheap removal (depending on how important your early-game disruption is going to be), and either an engine (more on these later), or a tutor/draw spell to get to one of your engines. The deck is full of cheap ramp spells, so having two lands and, say, a Farseek or a Nature's Lore (or even a Sakura-Tribe Elder) is a really sweet start; multiple ramp spells are just gravy. You will want to start with a lot of green mana to fuel your ramp spells, with an even spread between all three colors developing as the game progresses.
Got your hand? Sweet. Next comes the early game. The first few turns will be spent hurtling through the earliest stages of the game at mach speed (hopefully). You want to be hitting land drops, playing ramp spells, and (probably the most important part) scanning the board for potential threats. This deck packs a ton of removal, and if someone starts getting uppity, you should probably try to calmly explain to them why you need to destroy everything that brings them joy (well, not everything, but at least some things). Prior knowledge of your opponents’ decks can make a big difference here: if you know someone is aggressively trying to assemble a combo, and you see the pieces coming out, nuke ‘em. It’s nothing personal, after all. While watching your opponents like hawks, keep churning out utility dudes, ramping up your mana as much as possible, and begin dropping a tutor or two, or something like Sylvan Library or Sensei's Divining Top; you’re gonna want those engines I mentioned earlier in the mid-game.
You’ve survived the early game! Or at the very least, you ramped fast enough to make Azusa, Lost But Seeking cry, and made it here quicker than your opponents. This is the section of the game where you want to go and get one of those engine cards I told ya about. By now, you are probably tearing your hair out, screaming “Dammit IceBear, which cards are the rubber ducking (another, less obscure reference) engines!?” Woah there, calm down now champ. I would be happy to explain, and to save your scalp from further damage. You’re going to want Survival of the Fittest or Birthing Pod, and then some things to reanimate dudes like Karmic Guide or Reveillark. Let’s start with the first two. Survival and Pod share a similar function: they help you find necessary dudes while filling up your graveyard. I didn’t like Pod when I first created the deck, but when my focus swapped to more “enters the battlefield” effects, and my curve smoothed out, it became much better. If only it could be done at instant speed… Oh wait, that’s where Survival comes in; it allows you to set up chains of creatures (usually involving the aforementioned Llark and Guide), for the main man to abuse. Karador is the main engine of the deck, and you almost always have access to him. I tend to use him in conjunction with Guide and Llark (who you want in play, or in your graveyard, by this point), evoking the latter out of my graveyard to retrieve the former (and a friend, who is usually Eternal Witness or Saffi Eriksdotter; ALL the recursion), which allows me to get three creatures for six mana. What could be better? I’ll take one more moment to mention Sheoldred, Whispering One, and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, who can both act as miniature engines as well. They allow you to get even MORE value out of your ETB creatures, so if you were lucky enough to start with one of your necessary engines in your hand, these guys make great tutor targets.
I’m going to take a moment to not discuss the linear gameplan here, and focus instead on the role this deck tends to take on at the table. You will essentially be playing the police force here, so don’t be afraid to push them around a little. Watch out for people doing scary things, and stop them whenever it seems like they’re in too strong of a position. If someone vomits a multitude of creatures onto the board, cast Damnation. If someone’s throwing every artifact and enchantment they can out, cast Austere Command. Don’t worry about your own position at a time like this; one of your foes has become a serious danger to the game, and it is up to you, young hero, to save your comrades (well, they’re your comrades for now) from their tyranny! Generally, you can rebuild faster than anyone else, so wiping the world clean is not going to be an enormous problem for you, especially if it stops your opponents from taking the lead. So fear not, my gentle friend, your own creatures can be brought back later; just focus on stopping your opponents’ craziness. However, if you know they are holding back grave hate, be a LITTLE more hesitant to wipe, as it might mean losing your buddies permanently.
Okay, back to the battle strategy. Your engines are in place, you’ve wiped away any opposition, and now it’s time to lay down the threats. There’s a good chance that your general still only costs BGW, so the first step here is generally to let him take the field. One would imagine that you have at least nine mana by now, you can reasonably evoke Reveillark to nab Karmic Guide (bonus points if you get Saffi Eriksdotter too!), who can reanimate something like Rune-Scarred Demon (this is just a good example, but realistically, any creature in this deck with a converted mana cost over 5 cn be a legitimate threat; in this case you just get to tutor as an added bonus), which can find you one of the deck’s game-enders. Now, we are a creature-based deck, and as such, our finishers are creature-based. Avenger of Zendikar tends to end things for your opponents pretty quickly, as does Tooth and Nail. Yosei, the Morning Star can get some lovin’ here as well, if you don’t mind being a little more cruel. You can effectively use things like High Market along with your general to keep one opponent tapped down for the rest of the game. I tend to do this when there is only one opponent left, since people tend to see this as a threatening behavior. Can’t imagine why. His Darker Brother is worth mentioning at this point as well,as he can just outright win you the game if everyone else is out of gas/starting to get uppity, whichever comes first. At this stage in the game, it is okay to become more aggressive, swinging out often, then evoking Llark over and over with its threefavoriteplaymates to generate card advantage. You can still be board wipe happy here, but by now you should have the table under your control.
So there you have it. That’s how I pilot the deck, but as for the subtle intricacies and synergistic interactions that abound in this list, you really need to play to understand. I guess that’s kind of a cop out, but look, I can't exactly play the deck for you; where's the fun in that? And your opponents won't like that either, but there is a way to deal with them...
. Beat ‘Em Up, Karador Style
Here's the thing: people really aren't gonna like it when you manhandle them with your awesome deck of awesomeness, and they'll try to take you down. Luckily for you, I wrote up this little plan to deal with all the common strategies you may find yourself up against. Again, reading is no substitute for first-hand experience, but this can help keep you alive long enough to actually learn from it.
Tokens, or Other Creature Swarms
This is one of our easiest matches, by far. I’ve tested against some of the fastest swarms of dudes possible, been dropped to nine life by turn four, and simply dropped a sweeper. Even when they saved some amount of gas, I’ve crushed games against this type of deck with no problems. Tokens are easier than swarms of dudes (which is kind of uncommon anyway) because we have two little tools that make them cry: Maelstrom Pulse and Pernicious Deed. (Incidentally, I’ve also lost to both cards via my Avenger of Zendikar. I thought I was golden, since I had lethal on the board and was ready to own face. Clearly, I was mistaken.) Just try to tutor up a sweeper quickly, and don’t worry as much about your life total; the only point of life they care about is the last one, so if you can hang onto that, you should be in the clear. Who cares that you’re a slow deck. This is EDH, where the slow deck is the king.
Control
This matchup gets a little harder. Obviously, “control” is a very broad idea (I consider this deck a control deck, for example), so we should start with the kind of deck I am referring to. I’m talking about the deck that sits around, draws cards, draws cards, draws cards, draws cards, counters key spells, and puts up defenses like Ghostly Prison and Propaganda. They tend to win through some form of combo, or one unanswerable threat, but for most of the game they play the permission game. I see Grand Arbiter Augustin IV as a good example of this type of deck. These type of matches turn into wars of attrition, but if they’re packing combos, it gets tough for you to stop them. I included the card Mindslicer in this list for just this purpose; drop him, sac him, and watch all those cards disappear. Your key pieces are all recurrable anyway, so whatcha worrying about? Destroy his protective enchantments, get in there with your dudes, and end this match as fast as you reasonably can.
Combo
It can be really tough to beat, say, a turn 1 Godo, Bandit Warlord with infect and haste. Sadly, the deck just CANNOT beat that kind of speed. However, for those of us who are mere mortals, and the people in our metas have slower combos, we do have SOME answers. My dear friend Mindslicer, whom I mentioned earlier, can make all those expensive tutors really kind of worthless. Gaddock Teeg also shines in this matchup, since he can stop pesky other decks from running out their main spells while only stopping nine of yours. Take this one slow and make sure your plays count; you're usually the one laying down the law at this here table, so don't be afraid to punish those who do you (and others I guess) wrong.
Stax
Seriously, are these types of decks fun for anyone? If you have people who like to play these decks in your meta, you have my sympathy. These are a tough nut to crack, and it takes a lot to ensure that their effects are one sided. It is in fact possible, but you will be dependant on your low-costing removal and cheap ramp dudes to stay ahead. Losing creatures is obviously not an issue for this deck, but we kind of like our lands. I know this one is kind of lame, but I honestly don’t have that much experience playing this list against Stax-type decks, so any first-hand accounts would be appreciated so that I can update this section.
Norin the Wary
I suppose this should be called “Chaos Decks,” but even I know who the true god of this format is. Try as I might, I can never squeak out more than a lucky win here or there against this beast. It is difficult, it is mean, but damn is it effective. Seriously, if you run into a Norin player (or worse, Gaka *shudder*), just bow to your master and let him run the table; you will save yourself a lot of time.
. I don’t believe you. There must be a better way!
Thanks for the vote of confidence, dude. But now that you mention it, there ARE some other ways to play this awesome guy, so why don’t I show you them, and I’ll leave it to you to decide, hm?
. Wombo-Combo
Like I mentioned earlier, there are tons of ways to turn Karador into a combo machine. You generally forgo some consistency and survivability for the ability to risk it all for a quick win. This is accomplished by running MORE tutors and fewer removal/toolbox pieces so that you can get your engine on the board early and lock the game up while people are still getting set up. One variant goes a little like this: Reveillark, Karmic Guide, and Saffi Eriksdotter, and a free, instant-speed sac outlet compose the main combo engine. You sacrifice Saffi to her own ability, targeting Llark. If Guide is in play, you sac it to your sac outlet, and then sacrifice Llark, putting its trigger on the stack with Guide and Saffi as your two targets. Saffi’s trigger goes on next, and when the stack resolves, it returns Llark to the battlefield, followed by Saffi and Guide. Guide’s trigger goes on the stack, and you can pretty much target whatever is most useful. For example, to ruin everyone’s fun (I’m trying to keep my own opinions out here, so bear with me), you can choose Angel of Despair, and destroy a permanent when it enters the battlefield. You then sacrifice it and Guide to your sac outlet, Saffi to her own ability (targeting Llark of course), and finally Llark to your sac outlet, which begins the chain over again, and eventually nukes everyone else’s board. Neato! (I WANNA MAKE A PSA AT THE END OF THIS SECTION! WE HERE AT ICEBEAR INC DO NOT CONDONE THE USE OF INFINITE COMBOS AND WILL NOT RUN ANY TO ABUSE THIS COMBO IN THE MAIN DECKLIST. USE YOUR REVEILLARK, KARMIC GUIDES, & SAFFI ERIKSDOTTERS AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION. THANK YOU AND HAVE A PLEASANT DAY/EVENING.)
Another option involves Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and creatures with Persist, as well as an instant speed sac outlet. When the creature with Persist dies, both that trigger and Mikey’s Undying trigger go on the stack, and the critter returns with two counters on it: one +1/+1 and one -1/-1, which cancel each other out. Thus, you can have an infinite number of ETB triggers with something like Woodfall Primus to make everyone cry (bonus points if Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter is your sac outlet, since you can then use him to destroy everyone’s creatures as well; isn’t Magic fun?). Triskelion also forms a two-card with Mikaeus, removing all but two of its counters to ping an opponent of your choice, then using its last two counters to ping itself (thanks to Donald for pointing out that Mikaeus gives +1/+1 to non-human creatures; not usually the ability I am concerned with), triggering Mikey. Blegh. Glad I got those over with; I feel dirty just writing them. Hey, I said I would TRY to keep my opinions out, no? Yeesh.
I’m sure there are other combos I am not thinking of at the present (I do try to avoid it as often as possible). I feel like Necrotic Ooze must do SOMETHING degenerate to most game-states, and these are the colors to make that happen. There’s also the two-card combo between Devoted Druid and Quillspike to make the latter infinitely large, but that doesn’t serve much purpose besides an enormous beater. If you want the instant win, I say get serious about it.
. Dredge
Okay, this still falls onto the “combo” slice of the potential ways you could take this deck, but it isn’t quite as bad (read: it’s twice as dangerous). Essentially, you find some way to get major dredge cards like Golgari Grave-Troll into your yard, which allows you to dump your entire deck piece by piece. Obviously, this seems like a swift way to deck yourself, but fear not. It allows Karador to come in cheaply, recur some key combo pieces (like the ones I mentioned above), and get in there for a quick win. Hermit Druid is a pretty sweet enabler of this strategy if you run very few basics. Like I said, it’s a dangerous game to play, but if all you want to do is win (win win win), then who cares about danger. Walk on the wild side, and laugh in the face of danger! Ha ha ha ha! (C’mon people, at least get THAT reference, that’s a gimme.)
. Tim Allen’s Tool(Box) Time
A popular variant of this deck involves utilizing a “toolbox” of cards and a system of engines to access them at any given time. Sound familiar? I run a variant of this very plan, with my main focus being creatures. You can take my idea further by only including creatures, engines, and a few key tutors like my buddy Winzzy has. He only included nine non-land, non-creature spells in the deck, leaving the rest to be a very strong set of creatures with varied effects. It’s this large spread of potential abilities, as well as quick, easy ways to find them, that give a toolbox its effectiveness. It’s like wearing a utility belt while you’re out fighting crime. You DO all go fight crime, don’t you? Maybe I’m on the wrong site… Anyway, cards like Birthing Pod, Survival of the Fittest, Fauna Shaman, Tooth and Nail, and Congregation At Dawn make some strong appearances in this type of deck.
. The Token Inclusion
Tokens? With this guy? I know you’re probably thinking, ‘C’mon IceBear, we ALL know Ghave, Guru of Spores is WAY better at this than the ghost deer can be.’ Well, I gotta agree with you there, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t worth trying (and including the humongous fungus in the 99). I mean, we have some of the best anthems in this format in our colors, utility lands like Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree and Gavony Township to beef our dudes up, we LOVE Skullclamp, so why not? Creatures that produce tokens like Avenger of Zendikar, Captain of the Watch, Creakwood Liege, and Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder all gain bonus points in a Karador tokens deck, since you can bring them back to make even more little dudes once they die. We’re already a creature-based deck, that doesn’t mind wrath effects, so this doesn’t seem like that much of a stretch.
. Spirited Away
Alright, so there’s one thing I have yet to discuss when it comes to Karador, and that’s his creature type. He’s a Centaur Spirit. That first part has almost NO tribal applications for you, but in a certain Japanese-culture-themed block, we saw a ton of spirit cards, and there are some cool interactions to be had here. Karmic Guide counts as a spirit, and there are some cool options to fill out your toolbox. Arashi, the Sky Asunder and Kagemaro, First to Suffer are wraths, Bloodghast (with Skullclamp) and Graveborn Muse are draw, Divinity of Pride is an absolute winner in this format, Eternal Dragon ramps you, Kataki, War's Wage deals with artifacts, Myojin of Night’s Reach handles hands, the entire Soulshift mechanic is more recursion… The list goes on and on, and there is one slick piece of tech who tutors them all for you: Iname, Death Aspect. This also allows for victories with cards like Mortal Combat. Karador wins. Fatality.
. God IceBear, you’re so smart. How did you figure all this out?
Funny you should ask. This deck started long before Karador had even been a tiny thread of an idea in the minds of the development team. It was probably the second or third deck I conceptualized since starting to play EDH. I tried Voltron decks and token decks and nothing seemed to stand up to other things. They would look awesome on paper, but were either terrible or just not fun in practice. I knew I had to go back to the drawing board.
I dunno who told me this in the first place, but someone suggested something highly intelligent that I didn’t even consider before: just pick your three favorite colors, pick a general, and build around him, so you get to play your favorite spells anyway. I had been so focused on building around a general, I never stopped to think, ‘Hey, I am supposed to have fun with this.’ So I picked my three favorite colors, BGW, and looked at my choices. Doran, the Siege Tower was cool, and my friend had a sick treefolk deck back in Lorwyn block, but I didn’t wanna go that route, so Teneb, the Harvester was the obvious (read: only other) choice.
So I started with building the mana base up from scratch, then started having staples suggested to me by friends and people on Salvation, and I eventually had a playable stack of 100 cards. I can say from experience that I was naïve at that point, and didn’t quite have the understanding of the format that I do now. I played things that are really just awful, and didn’t play incredible things until much later (and still forget about important stuff, but that’s another story, and part of why I made this thread in the first place).
After losing a lot of games, and winning a handful, I started looking at what worked and what was just not useful ever. I narrowed down my list a little, ensuring that individual cards fulfilled multiple goals. Over time, I started picking up better cards, and trading for other things I needed. Eventually, the list was winning a fair amount of games, and I was really loving the way it was progressing.
The production of Commander caused a great sense of joy, as well as one of uncertainty. When I first saw Karador, I thought he was cute, and would make a welcome addition to the deck. When I tested him as the general, however, I realized that he was much better suited to the role than Teneb was. I was torn, and didn't initially want to change my general from something I had worked so hard to build, but in the end he was just a much better choice. Without knowing it, I had built the deck for a general exactly like Karador, and required few tweaks to make it fit him like a glove. Teneb holds a special place in my heart as the first deck I really worked with and played with for an extended period of time (over a year, which was pretty huge for me considering everything else got taken apart after a few weeks). Everything Karador is and will be is because of the “legacy” that came before him.
. Hang on, are you the ONLY one who plays this AWESOME general?
Of course not! I would never keep such an awesomely good time to myself. Here are some other lists on these forums who have their own unique focus. Hell, it's worth it to try all of these lists and find the one you like. But you'll be back. They always come back. Anywho, now that I am done being creepy, here are the lists:
Blackkithkin20's list is entirely focused on wiping the board as much as possible. Hell, we boast that we can rebuild faster than anyone else, why not put that to the test? Winzzy's list is more about utilizing a strong creature toolbox in some of the best colors available. Only the best non-creature spells have been kept, and it runs multiple recursion engines to keep its wincons going. Pookelyduke's list contains the fearsome Saffi Eriksdotter, Reveillark, Karmic Guide combo, as well as some unorthodox sweeper choices like False Prophet, which allows him to put some more focus on artifacts and enchantments. Volango's list has a strong focus on a toolbox of lands such as Bojuka Bog and Sejiri Steppe, and uses spells and abilities to tutor them up when the appropriate situation arises.
. Change Log, or What Happens if Something Awesome Comes Out
Deranged Hermit is really sweet with him. I've been building a 3-color slivers deck with 30+ slivers and all utility creatures with the only spells being Survival of the Fittest, Sylvan Library, Phyrexian Arena, and tutors.
Bone Shredder is the preferred creature because he ends up in the graveyard on his own, he can be brought back with Reveillark, and he can be brought back through Sun Titan. While Shriekmaw does the first more efficiently, Bone Shredder just helps more in the end, and only costs 1 more.
Currently Playing: Legacy
:symb::symr:Vial Goblins:symr::symb:
:symu::symb:Dredge:symu::symb: EDH
:symg::symb::symw:Teneb, the Harvester:symg::symb::symw:
:symb::symb::symb:Skittles, The Blight Dragon:symb::symb::symb:
Life from the Loam is on the list as of now, and has been an incredible part of the list thus far. I don't want to warp the focus of the deck to include dredgers, because it would cause me to totally revamp things. Survival of the Fittest is gonna be on the list in a few days; I ordered my copy for cheap today, so I am proud to say it's on its way in.
Life from the Loam is on the list as of now, and has been an incredible part of the list thus far. I don't want to warp the focus of the deck to include dredgers, because it would cause me to totally revamp things. Survival of the Fittest is gonna be on the list in a few days; I ordered my copy for cheap today, so I am proud to say it's on its way in.
If anyone is qualified to comment on your deck, I believe I have some value lol. Not like we play EDH often with each other or anything....
I disagree with the dredge strategy since I don't think that's the end-result of what you want. I did 5c Dredge/reanimator and just didn't like it overall (despite it being a house). You like more The Rock-esq things + recursion loops. Replacing conventional turn 4/5 plays of Rock with EDH shenanigans, there's some key additions I recommend for the long and short term.
In the end, I foresee Primeval Titan slipping in here. Hopefully M12 lowers his cost so you can pick one up without selling yourself on street corners. Baneslayer fell dramatically with more supply, so perhaps 2011 is the year Prime Titan reaches ~$10. He easily upgrades and replaces less efficient options.
As crazy as it sounds, I'm not a fan of Oracle (double land thing). Prime is the long-term solution to this slot. You have the means to consistently amass oodles of mana as is. Prime will only increase efficiency here.
Giving it some thought, I'd consider Harrow in the deck. Not sure if this could be an immediate replacement of farseek (can't believe I'm even considering that), but it does a whole lot of good for you. Cultivate + Kodama's Reach are what you want as ramp, netting +2 cards; often landing both in play that turn). Harrow has a lot of "oomph" to ramp you into that sweet 5-6 land ballpark early and/or just thin the deck of unnecessary lands. Journey of Discovery is another candidate, albeit slight differences in both the short and long game.
Since switching to Karador, Ghost Chieftain > Teneb, the deck has taken on a nastier approach. I think the ramp is your most valuable asset. It enables you to explode out. The second most valuable aspect of your deck (plus playstyle) in arguably tutoring. As of today's cardpool, I would never ever ever cut pure tutors, especially ones that avoid "to the top of your library" effects. Eladamri's Call is on your chopping block but I think you're crazy. For GW, a minimal investment from everyone's standard, you're getting whoever you want in your hand. Unless you change your Rock-esq flavor, I would mark this puppy as a staple. Same goes for Demonic.
The other tutors are all questionable. And by questionable I mean "amazing, but perhaps there's better". I think Defense of the Heart is the best "questionable" tutor. It's strong enough to just blow through really bad situations. It needs to trigger, but judging by who/what you play against, it's going to break backs. Diabolic Intent always grabs my eye as "ehh". I think THIS is the slot for survival of the fittest, which you say you're acquiring. Intent is indeed card quality advantage, but it's raw card disadvantage, which almost never works in your favor in EDH. Survival in this specific slot opens you up to 1) tutoring while 2) keeping you at +/- 0 net cards....avoiding disadvantage...while 3) building card quality advantage. Overall, it's an upgrade. Before you or others throw a tantrum over removing intent entirely, I firmly stand behind my logic.
With Survival (sometime soon) coming in, Fierce Empath's inclusion only further makes sense. I think Empath is hard card to understand. It's a helluvalot more intricate than people make it out to be. I'll avoid creating confusion by stating that he works well when he's paired with survival and Korador (who can then cycle him again).
Buried Alive / Zenith / Tooth....These are all solid cards in their own right, but the bigger issue overall is WHAT you're trying to accomplish. Seeing Korador (not Teneb) several times this summer, I have an understanding of how you want to impact the board. Ultimately you just want guys to spill out onto the battlefield. The biggest concern with these 3 slots is HOW they do so. Up until this point, the "questionable" tutors required you to play crap from your hand (even Defense if you look at it from the perspective that THAT card itself comes from your hand).
These 3 cards now AVOID the hand entirely (tooth an exception but you're prob entwining so just run with me on this one). It's up to you to decide how you want to tackle things. Also remember that I'm endorsing Survival > Intent, so technically there's 4 cards to work with in these 3 slots. If you like GY shenanigans, I'd go: Buried Alive / Entomb (down the road since that's $$$....but it works so well) / Intent. If you want to just cheat things, I'd go Tooth / Zenith / Natural Order (down the road). There is no correct answer here, but something to ponder over.
The rest of the deck simply plays out some hodge-podge Rock beatdown. Down the road, I'd do my best to pickup a Vindicate + trade in things for ever-increasingly efficient cards. I still think Debtors Knell is a card worthy of your late-game; it's too stupid to let you resolve/keep out. But as we always joke, there's just BETTER stuff out there. We used to think "how could we go without Mr. Spiritmonger?" Then we realized Lord of Extinction was just better. Now we see that both are inferior to a much larger chain of efficiency. The next evolution of this deck, which keeps a Rock mentality, is to just cut the fat. Natural Order or Entomb exemplify HOW I think this gets better while keeping its identity. This is your best deck for a reason but you're once again hitting the fork in the road on where to pilot the design.
Much love,
-Warden
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Warden my friend, you always do give me so much advice at once. Hope things are going well for you today, I know you have big things happening. I'm gonna address your points one at a time, but I want to thank you for complimenting the deck, and for assessing certain things and simplifying them in ways I could never think of. So much obliged, good sir, and now to the critique.
First thing's first: I agree with you completely with the dredge idea. I could do stupid things with Hermit Druid, but I am just not a fan of the idea. In addition to making games more about the combo and less about the gameplay (which I have seen first hand), I feel like it puts all my eggs in one basket more than I already do. Grave hate is such a weakness in this deck as is, and I don't need to give people more of an excuse to pack their deck with it.
You are again correct, the Rock is more my style of play. This deck wins through wars of attrition and being able to constantly get back up and keep fighting. With the switch to Karador, sweepers almost help me more than they hinder, and the deck has become even more resilient to just about everything.
Your belief that ramp is a key part of my strategy is pretty well founded, and I'm gonna go through each point one by one. First, about Oracle of Mul Daya: the card is pretty bonkers, and not just for the ability to drop extra lands. It filters the crap off the top of the library, which makes my draws much more potent, and in this function it is similar to a Sylvan Library or a Sensei's Divining Top. Plus, it can be brought back with Reveillark, which is really big. That being said, Azusa, Lost but Seeking could fill this slot, arguably ramp me faster, and can be recurred via Reveillark AND Sun Titan, but doesn't fulfill that filtering role, so we will have to see.
As for Primeval Titan, I would love to run the big guy, but money-wise he is undesirable at the moment. I wouldn't cut the Oracle for him, but Garruk Wildspeaker could probably be let go for this slot. You've expressed dislike for the 'walker before, and if it came down to him or the Titan, I think my choice would be obvious.
Harrow is not a card I would consider, but Life From the Loam being in the deck makes it slightly more appealing. That said, I think Journey of Discovery has potential to be better than it. You think Farseek is the card to cut here, and of my ramp spells it is probably the worst, but I think the card to replace it with is Nature's Lore, since it fetches almost all of my Shocks (and the Murmuring Bosk I intend to find eventually), and puts them into play untapped potentially. However, I am nervous, since no ramp spells grab Godless Shrine if I were to make the switch, but we will see.
The assessment of tutors is a little interesting to me. Demonic Tutor is a staple, and right now I am asking the main EDH forum whether Eladamri's Call is indeed as good as I believe it to be. As for Diabolic Intent, it serves 2 roles in the deck. One, it essentially functions as Demonic #2, which as we said was a staple. Two, it allows me to get rid of one of my creatures with an EtB effect, which allows for a cheaper Karador and a chance to reanimate it in order to get more value out of it. To me, it is one of the stronger tutors in the deck, and has consistently helped me out.
As for the "questionable" tutors, some are just too good to ignore: Defense of the Heart, Tooth and Nail, and Buried Alive. Fierce Empath has been quality since I put him in, so he stays, but I was skeptical at first. The weak link in the chain (and I can't believe I am saying this) is Green Sun's Zenith. The card is nuts, don't get me wrong, but it almost doesn't do enough (much like our Spiritmonger/Lord of Extinction example that we are so fond of). It only grabs half of the creatures in my deck, and it misses out on some key friends like Angel of Despair or Sheoldred, Whispering One (or Iona, if I am gonna be THAT guy). The decision is still being tossed around in the main forum, but it's leaning toward no more GSZ. I enjoy the mix of grave shenanigans and pure cheat-into-play stuff I have now, so I don't think I'm gonna make the total switch to one or the other.
Sad to say, Debtors' Knell is out of the picture, purely outclassed by Sheoldred through ability to recur/tutor for it. As for the big money cards (Entomb, Vindicate, Natural Order), we gotta see what happens in terms of money. Some of those puppies are just too much to pay for cardboard. I'm all for the game and all, but some things go above and beyond mere hobbies.
I think most of the fat is finally out of this deck, and it's going in a direction I really like. It's smooth, shiny, and pilots like a dream; this damn thing is my baby, and I love watching it grow, change, and improve over time. I think I'm actually going to write a primer for this list, since I think I finally have it tuned to where I can talk about every card and how it all meshes together. As always, I love hearing your advice on things, and I usually don't get to hear anything about this deck. So thank you, good sir, and I hope to play you again soon, so I can see your new monstrosity in the works. Oh, and Survival of the Fittest will be in within the week (around Friday), just so you know when you should really be afraid.
Hm. True Believer fits the profile of both Reveillark and Sun Titan, so he is definitely in consideration. What would you cut for him though? Riftsweeper (in my opinion) is also gunning for the same spot, or a similar one.
riftsweeper would be a card to cut out since it doesn't really do anything most of the time. Also, divinity of pride might also be a card to cut out since it doesn't really fit your deck's theme nor is it big enough to be considered a threat as opposed to your sun titan and sheoldred which fits in perfectly. Yosei, the morning star is also a very good creature to have in a deck like this. I won many 1v1 games off the back of him alone.
I meant that I was considering Riftsweeper, but I agree about the Divinity. I want to replace him with Rune-Scarred Demon, the guy in M12. Card looks bonkers. Is there anyone else you would cut? Yosei is also pretty cool, but I'm not sure if I like him or not. We will have to see.
Hmm I don't really like Garruk that much. I tested him personally in my Karador deck and took him out because for 4 mana, he doesn't impact the board that much. Theres better options for ramping and untapping two lands is irrelevant imo. Also, hows genesis wave for you? I tried to fit it into my deck but can't find space for it.
Garruk Wildspeaker is probably the card coming out for Primeval Titan whenever I get my hands on one. I know he's gonna drop in price, so I am not too concerned. Just a matter of time.
Genesis Wave makes me giddy every time I cast it. I've usually ramped like a boss to reach it, and I'm all set to blow out my deck onto the board. Most of my removal, tutors, and ramp are in creatures as opposed to spells, which makes for a more sizable wave. Personally, I tend to think it's worth it.
Also, why no sad robot? He is a lark target after all.
As for swapping out Teneb for Karador, I did the same thing. It was a tough choice but a good call. Karador's just dirty. I rarely have to pay more than 2wbg for him.
Edit: also, as for the riftsweeper discussion that card is a champ in my own opinion. Plus its a lark target, and a sun titan target. Just my 2¢
I'm playing Survival of the Fittest in the slot instead of both of them. It's been a pretty worthy call thus far. As for the robot, I just don't have room for him, which sounds awful. Is there someone you would cut?
I'm playing Survival of the Fittest in the slot instead of both of them. It's been a pretty worthy call thus far. As for the robot, I just don't have room for him, which sounds awful. Is there someone you would cut?
Though it may seem sacrilegious, I've been moving away from Jens in the last couple 3-color decks I've made. In your build, he's competing with Yavimaya Elder, who has the built in sac-effect and nets one more land (to hand, admittedly) and is also Lark-able/Titan-able, or Cultivate/Kodama's Reach, and you only have 9 basics for all those cards to find. I think you can do without him. If you really wanted him, I'd cut one of the two sorceries.
Though it may seem sacrilegious, I've been moving away from Jens in the last couple 3-color decks I've made. In your build, he's competing with Yavimaya Elder, who has the built in sac-effect and nets one more land (to hand, admittedly) and is also Lark-able/Titan-able, or Cultivate/Kodama's Reach, and you only have 9 basics for all those cards to find. I think you can do without him. If you really wanted him, I'd cut one of the two sorceries.
Yea, but Jens is also Lark-able.
If you did want to find room for him tho i would suggest cutting Cultivate/Kodama's Reach. In my own experience, you want as many creatures as possible. I ended up cutting both of these for that very reason and haven't looked back. I also run Yavimaya Dryad in my build. Fetches Murmuring Bosk/Shocks for me. (but thats just my personal preference).
I decided to sleeve this guy and give it a shot, and I was more than surprised at how effective it was. I added cards that I have (Warning: Not Budget friendly) and found the deck more than acceptable for Tournament play. My current deck list is below. Feel free to comment on it.
I kept both Zenith and Tooth in the build, because I play against many counter spells, and use Zenith to test the waters before casting Tooth.
Rune-Scarred Demon is nuts!!! I've Toothed or Hearted for it and Terastodon, then tutored for Austere Command to blow everything else up.
I would like to add a Homeward Path to the build because every blue deck is playing Bribery and it makes sense to run it. Also I would like to find space for Crucible of Worlds as every one I play with uses Strip Mine/Wasteland/other forms of land destruction, and Teneb, the Harvester.
Not bad looking lists. I would try to fit in Genesis, he's expensive but well worth it in this deck. Also Yosei, the Morning Star and Puppeteer Clique are both power houses in this deck.
I do agree that you want a large number of creatures to ensure that you can keep Karador online for the whole game.
One thing, have you conciously cut Saffi from the list to evade combos? If your evade the insta-gib then thats fine but otherwise you should run her. She's great on her own and can just win the game with Saffi Sun Titan/Revilark.
Hey, Ice Bear. First off I'd like to say that I really like your list. I basically fell into this same "play good things, recur them, adapt, win" strategy when I began playing EDH. I've played a ton of different decks and the only one I find satisfying is this. A link to my list, if you want to give it a look, is in my signature.
Its a very meta-dependent choice, but I've gone with Big Game Hunter over Bone Shredder or Shriekmaw in my WBG deck. Like Boneshredder, he's a target for Sun Titan and Reveillark. He doesn't kill himself with echo, which gives you more chances to Skullclamp him (If you play it, I can't remember). Hunter is also best friends with survival of the fittest and can punish discard decks. If your meta has a lot of black players, like mine does, I think he is worth a test.
ps- I'd play Sad Robot over Cultivate/Kodama's Reach (almost) every time in a deck like this. He's a creature, which makes him easy for you to recur! And the card draw when he dies is a pretty big deal.
Here is my list for reference, and there are a couple points I want to make.
1. I feel that Greater Good is absurd in this deck, absolutely absurd. Having a sac outlet, which draws you cards and fills your yard with stuff, is amazing. I tend not to be a douche bag in EDH but if someone starts it I am more than willing to end it with the Yosei + Greater Good + Karador lockdown.
2. I've read people saying that they didn’t want to include Debtor's Knell because Sheodreld is strictly better. My question to you is why not run both?
3. One thing I have always tried to do while building this deck is to run creatures that take the place of spells. Hence why all my ramping cards are dooders besides Reap and Sow. It helps turn Karador on, and if we do miss some land drops you can recur them easily.
4. Please feel free to comment and critique my list for I’m sure we all want to make the Ghost Chieftain better.
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Making Friends with the Dead for Fun & Profit
How will I know if I wanna play this guy?
So, you wanna play something a little different: you think combo decks that totally own everybody in one turn are boring, you’re tired of armies of little tokens, getting in there with just your general for 21 is just not as exciting as it used to be…
Lemme tell you, I’ve been there before. But you’re in luck today! You may have just stumbled onto the cure for all your
problems. Read on, my dear forum-going friend, and learn the secrets of this mystical man-deer-ghost-thing. Who knows? He might be the answer to your prayers. Or he’s here for your soul to add to his army of undead. Whichever.
You Might Like This Deck If
You Might Not Like This Deck If
If you're still reading, I believe I can safely assume that you haven't harmed any animals in the making of your decklist. In that case, let's go!
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But seriously, why THIS guy?!
Alright, alright! Jeez, you guys are pushy. Fine, I guess this guy needs a little more introduction. Karador offers a somewhat common strategy within the EDH format, which is “Reanimator,” but his colors allow him to put a unique “Rock” style spin on it (we’ll get to those in a minute). What this means is that you will be recasting and recasting your creatures over and over, while controlling the board with lots of wrath effects and spot removal. Now, naturally there are other legendary creatures that allow you to return permanents of some sort from the graveyard either to your hand or to play. Glissa, the Traitor, Hanna, Ship's Navigator, and Sharuum the Hegemon all allow you to return artifacts, but none can return creatures. Bladewing the Risen and Wort, Boggart Auntie allow you to return creatures, but they require you to play a particular creature type, and while tribal is cool and all, that isn’t what the big man is looking for. Adun Oakenshield, in addition to his badass name, allows you to return dudes to your hand from the grave, but only to your hand. Karador scoffs at this petty need to pay to return and THEN pay to recast them. Why not just grab them out of the yard in one fell swoop? No response? Duh, there isn’t one.
Now, I mentioned that we’d be discussing colors here. There’s red, yellow, blue, and then orange, green, purple… OH! Right, Magic colors. Karador sits squarely in the “Necra” wedge, which is referred to as “Junk” in Legacy. You’ve got some other options for generals here, but none of them offer the exact flavorful blend that our dearly departed deer does (say THAT ten times fast). Doran, the Siege Tower provides a nicely costed beatstick, which meshes nicely with the Rock playstyle; you can commit to the board in small bits, freeing up your mana for removal spells later on. But there’s just no recursion there, so out he goes. Ghave, Guru of Spores is a really solid general if you’re aiming for some token swarms or combo shenanigans, but he lacks the same thing Doran does: recursion. That just leaves the original BGW wedge general: Teneb, the Harvester. He seems to be everything we want: recursion, correct color scheme, a big scary dragon, the list goes on and on. As you’ll see below, the deck started out with him at the helm. Unfortunately, he needs to land a hit before you can reanimate things. Karador lets you do that any time you wish to (nearly), so he became the obvious choice for the deck as it is today.
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Alright, you’ve convinced me. But what does the deck look like?
I’ll show you, but only because you asked SO nicely. Not only will I show you, I’ll give you TWO decklists! Sure, they’re the same thing in different orders, but there are TWO of them! The numbers next to the card name indicate their converted mana cost, except for non-basic lands. They all have a one in front of them so they’ll show up as hyperlinks. Thank you deck tags! Anyway, enjoy.
1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Good Stuff
7 Avenger of Zendikar
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Genesis Wave
4 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
6 Kokusho, the Evening Star
4 Mindslicer
6 Yosei, the Morning Star
Creature Removal
3 Bone Shredder
4 Damnation
3 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
Non-Creature Removal
5 Acidic Slime
7 Angel of Despair
6 Austere Command
3 Beast Within
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Mortify
3 Necrotic Sliver
3 Oblation
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Putrefy
2 Qasali Pridemage
9 Terastodon
3 Vindicate
8 Woodfall Primus
Recursion
3 Eternal Witness
5 Karmic Guide
6 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
5 Reveillark
2 Saffi Eriksdotter
7 Sheoldred, Whispering One
6 Sun Titan
4 Birthing Pod
3 Buried Alive
4 Defense of the Heart
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Eladamri's Call
1 Entomb
3 Fierce Empath
7 Rune-Scarred Demon
2 Survival of the Fittest
7 Tooth and Nail
Draw
4 Disciple of Bolas
4 Greater Good
2 Grisly Salvage
3 Phyrexian Arena
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
2 Sylvan Library
Mana Ramp/Fixing
3 Farhaven Elf
2 Farseek
5 Mirari's Wake
2 Nature's Lore
4 Oracle of Mul Daya
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Sol Ring
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Wood Elves
3 Yavimaya Elder
Lands
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Command Tower
1 Fetid Heath
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 High Market
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Krosan Verge
1 Marsh Flats
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Sandsteppe Citadel
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Strip Mine
1 Sunpetal Grove
2 Swamp
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple Garden
1 Temple of the False God
1 Twilight Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Vesuva
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Bastion
1 Woodland Cemetery
8 Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Creatures
5 Acidic Slime
7 Angel of Despair
7 Avenger of Zendikar
3 Bone Shredder
4 Disciple of Bolas
3 Eternal Witness
3 Farhaven Elf
3 Fierce Empath
3 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Harmonic Sliver
4 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
5 Karmic Guide
6 Kokusho, the Evening Star
6 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
4 Mindslicer
3 Necrotic Sliver
4 Oracle of Mul Daya
2 Qasali Pridemage
5 Reveillark
7 Rune-Scarred Demon
2 Saffi Eriksdotter
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
7 Sheoldred, Whispering One
4 Solemn Simulacrum
6 Sun Titan
8 Terastodon
3 Wood Elves
3 Yavimaya Elder
6 Yosei, the Morning Star
8 Woodfall Primus
6 Austere Command
3 Buried Alive
4 Damnation
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Farseek
3 Genesis Wave
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Nature's Lore
7 Tooth and Nail
3 Vindicate
Instants
3 Beast Within
2 Eladamri's Call
1 Entomb
2 Grisly Salvage
3 Mortify
3 Oblation
1 Path to Exile
3 Putrefy
1 Swords to Plowshares
Artifacts
4 Birthing Pod
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
Enchantments
4 Defense of the Heart
4 Greater Good
5 Mirari's Wake
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Survival of the Fittest
2 Sylvan Library
Non-Basic Lands
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Command Tower
1 Fetid Heath
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 High Market
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Krosan Verge
1 Marsh Flats
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Sandsteppe Citadel
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Strip Mine
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple Garden
1 Temple of the False God
1 Twilight Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Vesuva
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Bastion
1 Woodland Cemetery
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
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Pretty sweet looking list ya got there, but why is that card in there, and why isn’t this one?
First of all, thank you. Second, I’m glad you asked. I’ll address those concerns separately, for your convenience. Let’s start with the:
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Card-by-Card Breakdown
The General Himself
Good Stuff
Removal
Recursion
Tutor & Draw
Ramp/Fixing
Lands
Does that explain everything in there for you? Now as for what isn’t in here:
Notable Omissions
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Well, uh, that’s nice and all, but how does it work?
This right here folks is the meat and potatoes of this thread. Sure, you can read my decklist and nod approvingly (or shake your head in disgust of my naïveté, whatever your preference), but that isn’t gonna help you when you sleeve it up yourself. Never fear, my dear reader; this section is for you. Let’s attempt to do this is some semblance of order and talk about the big, broad topics first. Let’s start with why this deck is awesome, and who is out to ruin its fun.
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Strengths and Weaknesses
Let’s start with the deck’s strengths. It is uniquely adept in one particular facet: its sense of inevitability. Everything about the list screams, “I’ll still be here when you’re done!” That’s the center of the entire strategy with this deck, to endure everything your opponents can throw at you, then strike back when they’ve exhausted themselves. This overall strength is made up of several other strong notes that interlock perfectly.
The first is the combination of the deck’s colors making up some of the strongest recursion colors in the format. Black and white are notorious for being incredibly strong in their ability to reanimate creatures, while green has had Regrowth effects since the beginning. It doesn’t hurt that this combination of colors has not one, but two generals who strongly support the reanimation theme. This partially ties into the main idea of inevitability in the sense that once everyone’s creatures have died, yours can keep returning for more party time. Nifty.
These colors have another great strength: removal. Sweepers, spot removal, means of exiling creatures and permanents, these colors enable all this and more. If you need a permanent taken care of, this deck can take care of that for you. With all of this removal floating around, you can ensure that your opponents don’t get to keep their shiny new toys. The decks inevitability is helped here as well, as is its reanimator themes: if you nuke the board, your dudes end up in the grave, where they can slowly conga line their way back up to the land of the living. Meanwhile, your opponents have to deal with the same few dudes coming back for more, while theirs continually end up in the garbage.
Another great power the deck has under its belt is its access to ALL the tutors. You get all the shiny black ones that fetch whatever you want, green’s ability to look for creatures, and white’s ability to hunt down artifacts and enchantments. Some of these tutors even require you to sacrifice dudes, or chuck them into your graveyard, which furthers our first strength nicely, and all that tutoring ability allows us to hunt down silver bullets to deal with any situation that may arise, which helps with the second.
Now, all this sounds a little too good to be true. The deck has GOTTA be weak to something, right? Removal clearly doesn’t stop it, since we just get our dudes back, and our dudes get other stuff back. Counter spells likewise tend to put everything into the graveyard, which is really our playground as well. Well folks, the catch comes in two places, but they share one thing: the exile zone. Some removal causes you to exile creatures, which puts them out of our reach. This somewhat rains on our parade.
The only thing scarier than that is removal that *gasp* exiles entire graveyards. Grave hate is VERY pervasive right now in this format, and it requires this deck to be constantly vigilant. Combating grave hate can be done in one of three ways. First, there are two cards, Riftsweeper and Pull From Eternity, which allow you to retrieve cards from the exile zone. These are nice (one is even a creature, a nice bonus in this deck), but they can be a little narrow. The second is to play cards like Praetor's Grasp and Sadistic Sacrament, which allow you to snag those pesky hate cards right out of your opponents’ decks. I like this option more, but since there are no creatures that can do this (aside from Earwig Squad, which I dislike), I tend to avoid this option. Plus, it targets only one person at a time; everyone else can gang up on you after you manhandle (or womanhandle) one of your opponents.
The third method, and the one I prefer, is to not simply put all of ones eggs into one basket. Sure, you can drop some threats, toss some dudes into your graveyard, and be a big fancy reanimator deck, but don’t attempt to drop your entire deck in there at once. Drop a few threats, maybe chuck one or two dudes into the grave, and use those. Keeping some more gas in hand will allow you to not get totally hosed when your opponents play a Bojiggle Biggle. Feel out your opponents plays, pace yourself, and look for the right moment to reanimate some dudes. Plus, you save deck-space this way, so you can toss in more threats and cool tricks! Saving you space AND giving you advice: I’m a real wizard sometimes.
Oh, I suppose there is one more way that problems can arise for you. The deck is a WEE bit slow, and it may occasionally have trouble dealing with VERY early beats. Generally though, you can stall those agro decks long enough to drop a sweeper (or a Maelstrom Pulse if you are dealing with pesky tokens) and make them cry. Hopefully not too many tears though, these people are supposed to be your friends, so play nice now (mostly)!
Now you know what’s great about the deck and what isn’t. Here comes the real nitty-gritty: I’m going to teach you how to play this deck. Be attentive, my star pupils, and you shall go on to do great things with this list.
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IceBear’s Karador, Ghost Chieftain for Dummies
Let’s start at the very beginning: first there was nothing, and then the universe was created. This was widely regarded as a bad move. Wait, too far back? Okay. So you draw your opening seven, and the first thing you need to do is evaluate what’s good and what isn’t. Every group does mulligan rules differently, but you will always be looking for the same few things: you will look for several lands (two to three is an acceptable number, but those risky one-landers are possible), some ramp spells, possibly some cheap removal (depending on how important your early-game disruption is going to be), and either an engine (more on these later), or a tutor/draw spell to get to one of your engines. The deck is full of cheap ramp spells, so having two lands and, say, a Farseek or a Nature's Lore (or even a Sakura-Tribe Elder) is a really sweet start; multiple ramp spells are just gravy. You will want to start with a lot of green mana to fuel your ramp spells, with an even spread between all three colors developing as the game progresses.
Got your hand? Sweet. Next comes the early game. The first few turns will be spent hurtling through the earliest stages of the game at mach speed (hopefully). You want to be hitting land drops, playing ramp spells, and (probably the most important part) scanning the board for potential threats. This deck packs a ton of removal, and if someone starts getting uppity, you should probably try to calmly explain to them why you need to destroy everything that brings them joy (well, not everything, but at least some things). Prior knowledge of your opponents’ decks can make a big difference here: if you know someone is aggressively trying to assemble a combo, and you see the pieces coming out, nuke ‘em. It’s nothing personal, after all. While watching your opponents like hawks, keep churning out utility dudes, ramping up your mana as much as possible, and begin dropping a tutor or two, or something like Sylvan Library or Sensei's Divining Top; you’re gonna want those engines I mentioned earlier in the mid-game.
You’ve survived the early game! Or at the very least, you ramped fast enough to make Azusa, Lost But Seeking cry, and made it here quicker than your opponents. This is the section of the game where you want to go and get one of those engine cards I told ya about. By now, you are probably tearing your hair out, screaming “Dammit IceBear, which cards are the rubber ducking (another, less obscure reference) engines!?” Woah there, calm down now champ. I would be happy to explain, and to save your scalp from further damage. You’re going to want Survival of the Fittest or Birthing Pod, and then some things to reanimate dudes like Karmic Guide or Reveillark. Let’s start with the first two. Survival and Pod share a similar function: they help you find necessary dudes while filling up your graveyard. I didn’t like Pod when I first created the deck, but when my focus swapped to more “enters the battlefield” effects, and my curve smoothed out, it became much better. If only it could be done at instant speed… Oh wait, that’s where Survival comes in; it allows you to set up chains of creatures (usually involving the aforementioned Llark and Guide), for the main man to abuse. Karador is the main engine of the deck, and you almost always have access to him. I tend to use him in conjunction with Guide and Llark (who you want in play, or in your graveyard, by this point), evoking the latter out of my graveyard to retrieve the former (and a friend, who is usually Eternal Witness or Saffi Eriksdotter; ALL the recursion), which allows me to get three creatures for six mana. What could be better? I’ll take one more moment to mention Sheoldred, Whispering One, and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, who can both act as miniature engines as well. They allow you to get even MORE value out of your ETB creatures, so if you were lucky enough to start with one of your necessary engines in your hand, these guys make great tutor targets.
I’m going to take a moment to not discuss the linear gameplan here, and focus instead on the role this deck tends to take on at the table. You will essentially be playing the police force here, so don’t be afraid to push them around a little. Watch out for people doing scary things, and stop them whenever it seems like they’re in too strong of a position. If someone vomits a multitude of creatures onto the board, cast Damnation. If someone’s throwing every artifact and enchantment they can out, cast Austere Command. Don’t worry about your own position at a time like this; one of your foes has become a serious danger to the game, and it is up to you, young hero, to save your comrades (well, they’re your comrades for now) from their tyranny! Generally, you can rebuild faster than anyone else, so wiping the world clean is not going to be an enormous problem for you, especially if it stops your opponents from taking the lead. So fear not, my gentle friend, your own creatures can be brought back later; just focus on stopping your opponents’ craziness. However, if you know they are holding back grave hate, be a LITTLE more hesitant to wipe, as it might mean losing your buddies permanently.
Okay, back to the battle strategy. Your engines are in place, you’ve wiped away any opposition, and now it’s time to lay down the threats. There’s a good chance that your general still only costs BGW, so the first step here is generally to let him take the field. One would imagine that you have at least nine mana by now, you can reasonably evoke Reveillark to nab Karmic Guide (bonus points if you get Saffi Eriksdotter too!), who can reanimate something like Rune-Scarred Demon (this is just a good example, but realistically, any creature in this deck with a converted mana cost over 5 cn be a legitimate threat; in this case you just get to tutor as an added bonus), which can find you one of the deck’s game-enders. Now, we are a creature-based deck, and as such, our finishers are creature-based. Avenger of Zendikar tends to end things for your opponents pretty quickly, as does Tooth and Nail. Yosei, the Morning Star can get some lovin’ here as well, if you don’t mind being a little more cruel. You can effectively use things like High Market along with your general to keep one opponent tapped down for the rest of the game. I tend to do this when there is only one opponent left, since people tend to see this as a threatening behavior. Can’t imagine why. His Darker Brother is worth mentioning at this point as well,as he can just outright win you the game if everyone else is out of gas/starting to get uppity, whichever comes first. At this stage in the game, it is okay to become more aggressive, swinging out often, then evoking Llark over and over with its three favorite playmates to generate card advantage. You can still be board wipe happy here, but by now you should have the table under your control.
So there you have it. That’s how I pilot the deck, but as for the subtle intricacies and synergistic interactions that abound in this list, you really need to play to understand. I guess that’s kind of a cop out, but look, I can't exactly play the deck for you; where's the fun in that? And your opponents won't like that either, but there is a way to deal with them...
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Beat ‘Em Up, Karador Style
Here's the thing: people really aren't gonna like it when you manhandle them with your awesome deck of awesomeness, and they'll try to take you down. Luckily for you, I wrote up this little plan to deal with all the common strategies you may find yourself up against. Again, reading is no substitute for first-hand experience, but this can help keep you alive long enough to actually learn from it.
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I don’t believe you. There must be a better way!
Thanks for the vote of confidence, dude. But now that you mention it, there ARE some other ways to play this awesome guy, so why don’t I show you them, and I’ll leave it to you to decide, hm?
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Wombo-Combo
Like I mentioned earlier, there are tons of ways to turn Karador into a combo machine. You generally forgo some consistency and survivability for the ability to risk it all for a quick win. This is accomplished by running MORE tutors and fewer removal/toolbox pieces so that you can get your engine on the board early and lock the game up while people are still getting set up. One variant goes a little like this: Reveillark, Karmic Guide, and Saffi Eriksdotter, and a free, instant-speed sac outlet compose the main combo engine. You sacrifice Saffi to her own ability, targeting Llark. If Guide is in play, you sac it to your sac outlet, and then sacrifice Llark, putting its trigger on the stack with Guide and Saffi as your two targets. Saffi’s trigger goes on next, and when the stack resolves, it returns Llark to the battlefield, followed by Saffi and Guide. Guide’s trigger goes on the stack, and you can pretty much target whatever is most useful. For example, to ruin everyone’s fun (I’m trying to keep my own opinions out here, so bear with me), you can choose Angel of Despair, and destroy a permanent when it enters the battlefield. You then sacrifice it and Guide to your sac outlet, Saffi to her own ability (targeting Llark of course), and finally Llark to your sac outlet, which begins the chain over again, and eventually nukes everyone else’s board. Neato! (I WANNA MAKE A PSA AT THE END OF THIS SECTION! WE HERE AT ICEBEAR INC DO NOT CONDONE THE USE OF INFINITE COMBOS AND WILL NOT RUN ANY TO ABUSE THIS COMBO IN THE MAIN DECKLIST. USE YOUR REVEILLARK, KARMIC GUIDES, & SAFFI ERIKSDOTTERS AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION. THANK YOU AND HAVE A PLEASANT DAY/EVENING.)
Another option involves Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and creatures with Persist, as well as an instant speed sac outlet. When the creature with Persist dies, both that trigger and Mikey’s Undying trigger go on the stack, and the critter returns with two counters on it: one +1/+1 and one -1/-1, which cancel each other out. Thus, you can have an infinite number of ETB triggers with something like Woodfall Primus to make everyone cry (bonus points if Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter is your sac outlet, since you can then use him to destroy everyone’s creatures as well; isn’t Magic fun?). Triskelion also forms a two-card with Mikaeus, removing all but two of its counters to ping an opponent of your choice, then using its last two counters to ping itself (thanks to Donald for pointing out that Mikaeus gives +1/+1 to non-human creatures; not usually the ability I am concerned with), triggering Mikey. Blegh. Glad I got those over with; I feel dirty just writing them. Hey, I said I would TRY to keep my opinions out, no? Yeesh.
I’m sure there are other combos I am not thinking of at the present (I do try to avoid it as often as possible). I feel like Necrotic Ooze must do SOMETHING degenerate to most game-states, and these are the colors to make that happen. There’s also the two-card combo between Devoted Druid and Quillspike to make the latter infinitely large, but that doesn’t serve much purpose besides an enormous beater. If you want the instant win, I say get serious about it.
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Dredge
Okay, this still falls onto the “combo” slice of the potential ways you could take this deck, but it isn’t quite as bad (read: it’s twice as dangerous). Essentially, you find some way to get major dredge cards like Golgari Grave-Troll into your yard, which allows you to dump your entire deck piece by piece. Obviously, this seems like a swift way to deck yourself, but fear not. It allows Karador to come in cheaply, recur some key combo pieces (like the ones I mentioned above), and get in there for a quick win. Hermit Druid is a pretty sweet enabler of this strategy if you run very few basics. Like I said, it’s a dangerous game to play, but if all you want to do is win (win win win), then who cares about danger. Walk on the wild side, and laugh in the face of danger! Ha ha ha ha! (C’mon people, at least get THAT reference, that’s a gimme.)
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Tim Allen’s Tool(Box) Time
A popular variant of this deck involves utilizing a “toolbox” of cards and a system of engines to access them at any given time. Sound familiar? I run a variant of this very plan, with my main focus being creatures. You can take my idea further by only including creatures, engines, and a few key tutors like my buddy Winzzy has. He only included nine non-land, non-creature spells in the deck, leaving the rest to be a very strong set of creatures with varied effects. It’s this large spread of potential abilities, as well as quick, easy ways to find them, that give a toolbox its effectiveness. It’s like wearing a utility belt while you’re out fighting crime. You DO all go fight crime, don’t you? Maybe I’m on the wrong site… Anyway, cards like Birthing Pod, Survival of the Fittest, Fauna Shaman, Tooth and Nail, and Congregation At Dawn make some strong appearances in this type of deck.
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The Token Inclusion
Tokens? With this guy? I know you’re probably thinking, ‘C’mon IceBear, we ALL know Ghave, Guru of Spores is WAY better at this than the ghost deer can be.’ Well, I gotta agree with you there, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t worth trying (and including the humongous fungus in the 99). I mean, we have some of the best anthems in this format in our colors, utility lands like Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree and Gavony Township to beef our dudes up, we LOVE Skullclamp, so why not? Creatures that produce tokens like Avenger of Zendikar, Captain of the Watch, Creakwood Liege, and Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder all gain bonus points in a Karador tokens deck, since you can bring them back to make even more little dudes once they die. We’re already a creature-based deck, that doesn’t mind wrath effects, so this doesn’t seem like that much of a stretch.
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Spirited Away
Alright, so there’s one thing I have yet to discuss when it comes to Karador, and that’s his creature type. He’s a Centaur Spirit. That first part has almost NO tribal applications for you, but in a certain Japanese-culture-themed block, we saw a ton of spirit cards, and there are some cool interactions to be had here. Karmic Guide counts as a spirit, and there are some cool options to fill out your toolbox. Arashi, the Sky Asunder and Kagemaro, First to Suffer are wraths, Bloodghast (with Skullclamp) and Graveborn Muse are draw, Divinity of Pride is an absolute winner in this format, Eternal Dragon ramps you, Kataki, War's Wage deals with artifacts, Myojin of Night’s Reach handles hands, the entire Soulshift mechanic is more recursion… The list goes on and on, and there is one slick piece of tech who tutors them all for you: Iname, Death Aspect. This also allows for victories with cards like Mortal Combat. Karador wins. Fatality.
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God IceBear, you’re so smart. How did you figure all this out?
Funny you should ask. This deck started long before Karador had even been a tiny thread of an idea in the minds of the development team. It was probably the second or third deck I conceptualized since starting to play EDH. I tried Voltron decks and token decks and nothing seemed to stand up to other things. They would look awesome on paper, but were either terrible or just not fun in practice. I knew I had to go back to the drawing board.
I dunno who told me this in the first place, but someone suggested something highly intelligent that I didn’t even consider before: just pick your three favorite colors, pick a general, and build around him, so you get to play your favorite spells anyway. I had been so focused on building around a general, I never stopped to think, ‘Hey, I am supposed to have fun with this.’ So I picked my three favorite colors, BGW, and looked at my choices. Doran, the Siege Tower was cool, and my friend had a sick treefolk deck back in Lorwyn block, but I didn’t wanna go that route, so Teneb, the Harvester was the obvious (read: only other) choice.
So I started with building the mana base up from scratch, then started having staples suggested to me by friends and people on Salvation, and I eventually had a playable stack of 100 cards. I can say from experience that I was naïve at that point, and didn’t quite have the understanding of the format that I do now. I played things that are really just awful, and didn’t play incredible things until much later (and still forget about important stuff, but that’s another story, and part of why I made this thread in the first place).
After losing a lot of games, and winning a handful, I started looking at what worked and what was just not useful ever. I narrowed down my list a little, ensuring that individual cards fulfilled multiple goals. Over time, I started picking up better cards, and trading for other things I needed. Eventually, the list was winning a fair amount of games, and I was really loving the way it was progressing.
The production of Commander caused a great sense of joy, as well as one of uncertainty. When I first saw Karador, I thought he was cute, and would make a welcome addition to the deck. When I tested him as the general, however, I realized that he was much better suited to the role than Teneb was. I was torn, and didn't initially want to change my general from something I had worked so hard to build, but in the end he was just a much better choice. Without knowing it, I had built the deck for a general exactly like Karador, and required few tweaks to make it fit him like a glove. Teneb holds a special place in my heart as the first deck I really worked with and played with for an extended period of time (over a year, which was pretty huge for me considering everything else got taken apart after a few weeks). Everything Karador is and will be is because of the “legacy” that came before him.
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Hang on, are you the ONLY one who plays this AWESOME general?
Of course not! I would never keep such an awesomely good time to myself. Here are some other lists on these forums who have their own unique focus. Hell, it's worth it to try all of these lists and find the one you like. But you'll be back. They always come back. Anywho, now that I am done being creepy, here are the lists:
Blackkithkin20's list is entirely focused on wiping the board as much as possible. Hell, we boast that we can rebuild faster than anyone else, why not put that to the test?
Winzzy's list is more about utilizing a strong creature toolbox in some of the best colors available. Only the best non-creature spells have been kept, and it runs multiple recursion engines to keep its wincons going.
Pookelyduke's list contains the fearsome Saffi Eriksdotter, Reveillark, Karmic Guide combo, as well as some unorthodox sweeper choices like False Prophet, which allows him to put some more focus on artifacts and enchantments.
Volango's list has a strong focus on a toolbox of lands such as Bojuka Bog and Sejiri Steppe, and uses spells and abilities to tutor them up when the appropriate situation arises.
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Change Log, or What Happens if Something Awesome Comes Out
July 10, 2011: - Green Sun's Zenith, + Survival of the Fittest
July 22, 2011: - Divinity of Pride, + Rune-Scarred Demon; - Stirring Wildwood, + Murmuring Bosk
August 7, 2011: - Sword of Fire and Ice, + Phyrexian Revoker; - Sword of Light and Shadow, + True Believer; - Knight of the Reliquary, + Dauntless Escort
December 3, 2011: - Tainted Wood, + Woodland Cemetery; - Tainted Field, + Isolated Chapel; - Horizon Canopy, + Sunpetal Grove; - Skyshroud Claim, + Nature's Lore
December 23, 2011: - Night's Whisper, + Bloodgift Demon (This was done a while ago, I just hadn't updated the list on here.)
January 2, 2012: - Dauntless Escort, + Yosei, the Morning Star; - Mind's Eye, + Greater Good; - Garruk Wildspeaker, + Entomb; - Lightning Greaves, + Maelstrom Pulse; - Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, + Phyrexian Tower
March 23, 2012: - Phyrexian Revoker, + Graveborn Muse; - Teneb, the Harvester, + Mikaeus, the Unhallowed (Also done a while ago, but I finally updated.)
March 25, 2012: - True Believer, + Gaddock Teeg; - Seedborn Muse, + Vindicate
April 21, 2012: - Eternal Dragon, + Wood Elves
May 29, 2012: - Archon of Justice, + Puppeteer Clique; - Magus of the Disk, + Mindslicer; - Life From the Loam, + Birthing Pod; - Bloodgift Demon, + Griselbrand; - Graveborn Muse, + Farhaven Elf; - Cultivate, + Solemn Simulacrum; - Kodama's Reach, + Primeval Titan; - Barren Moor, + Bayou; - Secluded Steppe, + Scrubland; - Tranquil Thicket, + Savannah
June 20, 2012: - Griselbrand, + Restoration Angel
July 16, 2012: - Restoration Angel, + Disciple of Bolas
September 19, 2012: - Primeval Titan, + Kokusho, the Evening Star; - Iona, Shield of Emeria, + Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
August 27, 2016: - Rout, + Grisly Salvage, - Puppeteer Clique, + Saffi Eriksdotter, - Sorin Markov, + Woodfall Primus
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Combo-Free Kiki-Jiki
banner by Maelstrom Graphics
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Legacy
:symb::symr:Vial Goblins:symr::symb:
:symu::symb:Dredge:symu::symb:
EDH
:symg::symb::symw:Teneb, the Harvester:symg::symb::symw:
:symb::symb::symb:Skittles, The Blight Dragon:symb::symb::symb:
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
If anyone is qualified to comment on your deck, I believe I have some value lol. Not like we play EDH often with each other or anything....
I disagree with the dredge strategy since I don't think that's the end-result of what you want. I did 5c Dredge/reanimator and just didn't like it overall (despite it being a house). You like more The Rock-esq things + recursion loops. Replacing conventional turn 4/5 plays of Rock with EDH shenanigans, there's some key additions I recommend for the long and short term.
In the end, I foresee Primeval Titan slipping in here. Hopefully M12 lowers his cost so you can pick one up without selling yourself on street corners. Baneslayer fell dramatically with more supply, so perhaps 2011 is the year Prime Titan reaches ~$10. He easily upgrades and replaces less efficient options.
As crazy as it sounds, I'm not a fan of Oracle (double land thing). Prime is the long-term solution to this slot. You have the means to consistently amass oodles of mana as is. Prime will only increase efficiency here.
Giving it some thought, I'd consider Harrow in the deck. Not sure if this could be an immediate replacement of farseek (can't believe I'm even considering that), but it does a whole lot of good for you. Cultivate + Kodama's Reach are what you want as ramp, netting +2 cards; often landing both in play that turn). Harrow has a lot of "oomph" to ramp you into that sweet 5-6 land ballpark early and/or just thin the deck of unnecessary lands. Journey of Discovery is another candidate, albeit slight differences in both the short and long game.
Since switching to Karador, Ghost Chieftain > Teneb, the deck has taken on a nastier approach. I think the ramp is your most valuable asset. It enables you to explode out. The second most valuable aspect of your deck (plus playstyle) in arguably tutoring. As of today's cardpool, I would never ever ever cut pure tutors, especially ones that avoid "to the top of your library" effects. Eladamri's Call is on your chopping block but I think you're crazy. For GW, a minimal investment from everyone's standard, you're getting whoever you want in your hand. Unless you change your Rock-esq flavor, I would mark this puppy as a staple. Same goes for Demonic.
The other tutors are all questionable. And by questionable I mean "amazing, but perhaps there's better". I think Defense of the Heart is the best "questionable" tutor. It's strong enough to just blow through really bad situations. It needs to trigger, but judging by who/what you play against, it's going to break backs.
Diabolic Intent always grabs my eye as "ehh". I think THIS is the slot for survival of the fittest, which you say you're acquiring. Intent is indeed card quality advantage, but it's raw card disadvantage, which almost never works in your favor in EDH. Survival in this specific slot opens you up to 1) tutoring while 2) keeping you at +/- 0 net cards....avoiding disadvantage...while 3) building card quality advantage. Overall, it's an upgrade. Before you or others throw a tantrum over removing intent entirely, I firmly stand behind my logic.
With Survival (sometime soon) coming in, Fierce Empath's inclusion only further makes sense. I think Empath is hard card to understand. It's a helluvalot more intricate than people make it out to be. I'll avoid creating confusion by stating that he works well when he's paired with survival and Korador (who can then cycle him again).
Buried Alive / Zenith / Tooth....These are all solid cards in their own right, but the bigger issue overall is WHAT you're trying to accomplish. Seeing Korador (not Teneb) several times this summer, I have an understanding of how you want to impact the board. Ultimately you just want guys to spill out onto the battlefield. The biggest concern with these 3 slots is HOW they do so. Up until this point, the "questionable" tutors required you to play crap from your hand (even Defense if you look at it from the perspective that THAT card itself comes from your hand).
These 3 cards now AVOID the hand entirely (tooth an exception but you're prob entwining so just run with me on this one). It's up to you to decide how you want to tackle things. Also remember that I'm endorsing Survival > Intent, so technically there's 4 cards to work with in these 3 slots. If you like GY shenanigans, I'd go: Buried Alive / Entomb (down the road since that's $$$....but it works so well) / Intent. If you want to just cheat things, I'd go Tooth / Zenith / Natural Order (down the road). There is no correct answer here, but something to ponder over.
The rest of the deck simply plays out some hodge-podge Rock beatdown. Down the road, I'd do my best to pickup a Vindicate + trade in things for ever-increasingly efficient cards. I still think Debtors Knell is a card worthy of your late-game; it's too stupid to let you resolve/keep out. But as we always joke, there's just BETTER stuff out there. We used to think "how could we go without Mr. Spiritmonger?" Then we realized Lord of Extinction was just better. Now we see that both are inferior to a much larger chain of efficiency. The next evolution of this deck, which keeps a Rock mentality, is to just cut the fat. Natural Order or Entomb exemplify HOW I think this gets better while keeping its identity. This is your best deck for a reason but you're once again hitting the fork in the road on where to pilot the design.
Much love,
-Warden
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
First thing's first: I agree with you completely with the dredge idea. I could do stupid things with Hermit Druid, but I am just not a fan of the idea. In addition to making games more about the combo and less about the gameplay (which I have seen first hand), I feel like it puts all my eggs in one basket more than I already do. Grave hate is such a weakness in this deck as is, and I don't need to give people more of an excuse to pack their deck with it.
You are again correct, the Rock is more my style of play. This deck wins through wars of attrition and being able to constantly get back up and keep fighting. With the switch to Karador, sweepers almost help me more than they hinder, and the deck has become even more resilient to just about everything.
Your belief that ramp is a key part of my strategy is pretty well founded, and I'm gonna go through each point one by one. First, about Oracle of Mul Daya: the card is pretty bonkers, and not just for the ability to drop extra lands. It filters the crap off the top of the library, which makes my draws much more potent, and in this function it is similar to a Sylvan Library or a Sensei's Divining Top. Plus, it can be brought back with Reveillark, which is really big. That being said, Azusa, Lost but Seeking could fill this slot, arguably ramp me faster, and can be recurred via Reveillark AND Sun Titan, but doesn't fulfill that filtering role, so we will have to see.
As for Primeval Titan, I would love to run the big guy, but money-wise he is undesirable at the moment. I wouldn't cut the Oracle for him, but Garruk Wildspeaker could probably be let go for this slot. You've expressed dislike for the 'walker before, and if it came down to him or the Titan, I think my choice would be obvious.
Harrow is not a card I would consider, but Life From the Loam being in the deck makes it slightly more appealing. That said, I think Journey of Discovery has potential to be better than it. You think Farseek is the card to cut here, and of my ramp spells it is probably the worst, but I think the card to replace it with is Nature's Lore, since it fetches almost all of my Shocks (and the Murmuring Bosk I intend to find eventually), and puts them into play untapped potentially. However, I am nervous, since no ramp spells grab Godless Shrine if I were to make the switch, but we will see.
The assessment of tutors is a little interesting to me. Demonic Tutor is a staple, and right now I am asking the main EDH forum whether Eladamri's Call is indeed as good as I believe it to be. As for Diabolic Intent, it serves 2 roles in the deck. One, it essentially functions as Demonic #2, which as we said was a staple. Two, it allows me to get rid of one of my creatures with an EtB effect, which allows for a cheaper Karador and a chance to reanimate it in order to get more value out of it. To me, it is one of the stronger tutors in the deck, and has consistently helped me out.
As for the "questionable" tutors, some are just too good to ignore: Defense of the Heart, Tooth and Nail, and Buried Alive. Fierce Empath has been quality since I put him in, so he stays, but I was skeptical at first. The weak link in the chain (and I can't believe I am saying this) is Green Sun's Zenith. The card is nuts, don't get me wrong, but it almost doesn't do enough (much like our Spiritmonger/Lord of Extinction example that we are so fond of). It only grabs half of the creatures in my deck, and it misses out on some key friends like Angel of Despair or Sheoldred, Whispering One (or Iona, if I am gonna be THAT guy). The decision is still being tossed around in the main forum, but it's leaning toward no more GSZ. I enjoy the mix of grave shenanigans and pure cheat-into-play stuff I have now, so I don't think I'm gonna make the total switch to one or the other.
Sad to say, Debtors' Knell is out of the picture, purely outclassed by Sheoldred through ability to recur/tutor for it. As for the big money cards (Entomb, Vindicate, Natural Order), we gotta see what happens in terms of money. Some of those puppies are just too much to pay for cardboard. I'm all for the game and all, but some things go above and beyond mere hobbies.
I think most of the fat is finally out of this deck, and it's going in a direction I really like. It's smooth, shiny, and pilots like a dream; this damn thing is my baby, and I love watching it grow, change, and improve over time. I think I'm actually going to write a primer for this list, since I think I finally have it tuned to where I can talk about every card and how it all meshes together. As always, I love hearing your advice on things, and I usually don't get to hear anything about this deck. So thank you, good sir, and I hope to play you again soon, so I can see your new monstrosity in the works. Oh, and Survival of the Fittest will be in within the week (around Friday), just so you know when you should really be afraid.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Genesis Wave makes me giddy every time I cast it. I've usually ramped like a boss to reach it, and I'm all set to blow out my deck onto the board. Most of my removal, tutors, and ramp are in creatures as opposed to spells, which makes for a more sizable wave. Personally, I tend to think it's worth it.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Cube 360 cards, unpowered.
Modern:
URStormUR
Block
RWHumansRW
URGStalkerURG
It is indeed.
Also, why no sad robot? He is a lark target after all.
As for swapping out Teneb for Karador, I did the same thing. It was a tough choice but a good call. Karador's just dirty. I rarely have to pay more than 2wbg for him.
Edit: also, as for the riftsweeper discussion that card is a champ in my own opinion. Plus its a lark target, and a sun titan target. Just my 2¢
Cube 360 cards, unpowered.
Modern:
URStormUR
Block
RWHumansRW
URGStalkerURG
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Though it may seem sacrilegious, I've been moving away from Jens in the last couple 3-color decks I've made. In your build, he's competing with Yavimaya Elder, who has the built in sac-effect and nets one more land (to hand, admittedly) and is also Lark-able/Titan-able, or Cultivate/Kodama's Reach, and you only have 9 basics for all those cards to find. I think you can do without him. If you really wanted him, I'd cut one of the two sorceries.
Yea, but Jens is also Lark-able.
If you did want to find room for him tho i would suggest cutting Cultivate/Kodama's Reach. In my own experience, you want as many creatures as possible. I ended up cutting both of these for that very reason and haven't looked back. I also run Yavimaya Dryad in my build. Fetches Murmuring Bosk/Shocks for me. (but thats just my personal preference).
Cube 360 cards, unpowered.
Modern:
URStormUR
Block
RWHumansRW
URGStalkerURG
I decided to sleeve this guy and give it a shot, and I was more than surprised at how effective it was. I added cards that I have (Warning: Not Budget friendly) and found the deck more than acceptable for Tournament play. My current deck list is below. Feel free to comment on it.
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Bone Shredder
1x Fleshbag Maruder
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Necrotic Sliver
1x Fierce Empath
1x Eternal Witness
1x Yavimaya Elder
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Magus of the Disk
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Acidic Slime
1x Archon of Justice
1x Karmic Guide
1x Reveillark
1x Seedborn Muse
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Sun Titan
1x Primeval Titan
1x Angel of Despair
1x Avenger of Zendikar
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
1x Eternal Dragon
1x Terastodon
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Green-Sun Zenith
1x Life from the Loam
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Diabolic Intent
1x Farseek
1x Night's Whisper
1x Nature's Lore
1x Genesis Wave
1x Cultivate
1x Kodama's Reach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Damnation
1x Skyshroud Claim
1x Rout
1x Austere Command
1x Tooth and Nail
1x Path to Exile
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Eladamri's Call
1x Mortify
1x Putrefy
1x Beast Within
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Mind's Eye
1x Survival of the Fittest
1x Sylvan Library
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Defense of the Heart
1x Mirari's Wake
1x Sorin Markov
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Bayou
1x Command Tower
1x Fetid Heath
1x Godless Shrine
1x High Market
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Krosan Verge
1x Marsh Flats
1x Murmuring Bosk
1x Orzhov Basilica
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Savannah
1x Secluded Steppe
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Strip Mine
1x Temple Garden
1x Temple of the False God
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Vesuva
1x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
I kept both Zenith and Tooth in the build, because I play against many counter spells, and use Zenith to test the waters before casting Tooth.
Rune-Scarred Demon is nuts!!! I've Toothed or Hearted for it and Terastodon, then tutored for Austere Command to blow everything else up.
I would like to add a Homeward Path to the build because every blue deck is playing Bribery and it makes sense to run it. Also I would like to find space for Crucible of Worlds as every one I play with uses Strip Mine/Wasteland/other forms of land destruction, and Teneb, the Harvester.
Any comments would be appricated.
One thing, have you conciously cut Saffi from the list to evade combos? If your evade the insta-gib then thats fine but otherwise you should run her. She's great on her own and can just win the game with Saffi Sun Titan/Revilark.
http://lefowens.blogspot.com/
Its a very meta-dependent choice, but I've gone with Big Game Hunter over Bone Shredder or Shriekmaw in my WBG deck. Like Boneshredder, he's a target for Sun Titan and Reveillark. He doesn't kill himself with echo, which gives you more chances to Skullclamp him (If you play it, I can't remember). Hunter is also best friends with survival of the fittest and can punish discard decks. If your meta has a lot of black players, like mine does, I think he is worth a test.
ps- I'd play Sad Robot over Cultivate/Kodama's Reach (almost) every time in a deck like this. He's a creature, which makes him easy for you to recur! And the card draw when he dies is a pretty big deal.
UBR Thrax
Creatures:
1x Angel of Despair
1x Avenger of Zendikar
1x Avatar of Woe
1x Acidic Slime
1x Academy Rector
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
1x Genesis
1x Graveborn Muse
1x Grave Titan
1x Karmic Guide
1x Kor Cartographer
1x Krosan Tusker
1x Lord of Extinction
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Reveillark
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Primeval Titan
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Terastodon
1x Wood Elves
1x Woodfall Primus
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Yavimaya Elder
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
1x Austere Command
1x Damnation
1x Beacon of Unrest
1x Life from the Loam
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Decree of Pain
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Regrowth
1x Reanimate
1x Reap and Sow
1x Profane Command
1x Promise of Power
1x Plague Wind
1x Tooth and Nail
1x Vindicate
1x Wrath of God
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Mortify
1x Putrefy
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Survival of the Fittest
1x Debtor's Knell
1x Greater Good
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Pernicious Deed
Planeswalkers:
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Liliana Vess
1x Sorin Markov
1x Barren Moor
1x Bayou
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Cabal Coffers
1x Evolving Wilds
1x Fetid Heath
1x Godless Shrine
1x Golgari Rot Farm
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Marsh Flats
1x Maze of Ith
1x Murmuring Bosk
1x Orzhov Basilica
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Petrified Field
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Savannah
1x Selesnya Sanctuary
1x Secluded Steppe
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Strip Mine
1x Temple Garden
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Twilight Mire
1x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stonghold
1x Wooded Bastion
1x Yavimaya Hollow
Here is my list for reference, and there are a couple points I want to make.
1. I feel that Greater Good is absurd in this deck, absolutely absurd. Having a sac outlet, which draws you cards and fills your yard with stuff, is amazing. I tend not to be a douche bag in EDH but if someone starts it I am more than willing to end it with the Yosei + Greater Good + Karador lockdown.
2. I've read people saying that they didn’t want to include Debtor's Knell because Sheodreld is strictly better. My question to you is why not run both?
3. One thing I have always tried to do while building this deck is to run creatures that take the place of spells. Hence why all my ramping cards are dooders besides Reap and Sow. It helps turn Karador on, and if we do miss some land drops you can recur them easily.
4. Please feel free to comment and critique my list for I’m sure we all want to make the Ghost Chieftain better.