Well, here's my first ever built-from-the-ground-up Commander deck. I really liked the idea of a Scion deck, particularly since it allows amazing variety in card selection.
The deck isn't meant to be top-tier or anything, which is why I even decided to throw out the simple 2-card Niv-Mizzet/Curiosity combo which could've been tutored up on demand against a tapped out opponent.
However I do want it to be powerful and effective, both in single- and multiplayer games. Any suggestions to enhance the gameplan would be highly appreciated. Note that I don't mind combos, so long as they're not both totally game-ending and exceedingly easy to assemble. Furthermore, as the lands would suggest, I am both unwilling to spend a ton on this deck, and also rather unskilled at building a reliable manabase. I'd be grateful for some budget-friendly assistance if possible.
The deck will likely be played in 1v1 and Two-Headed Giant formats, with the very rare fatal four-way every once in awhile.
+1 Utopia Tree
+1 Skyshroud Claim
+1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
+1 Hinder
+1 Conflux
+1 All Suns' Dawn
I have yet to put Conflux or All Suns' Dawn into action, but they seem appropriately epic for a five color deck, so they got the slot. The ramp provided by cards like Skyshroud Claim and Hunting Wilds is absolutely ridiculous. I routinely end up with 7 usable mana on turn 4, letting me shoot out Scion if I don't expect removal or drop a fat dragon from my hand to bait out that sort of thing.
Sheoldred is a late-game killer if they have no removal, acting as Debtors' Knell #2 in the deck.
Pacifism honestly is kinda.... well... lame. I suggest replacing it with something better like Arrest or Faith´s fetters which completely paralyzes the target. I would also replace (if you can afford it) Mortify for Vindicate, and Wrath of God or Damnation for Day of Judgement.
Your mana fixing is awesome, but I would consider adding a Reflecting Pool, and maybe Sylvan Scrying.
Finally, Stranglehold seems kinda lame, so I would change it for the staple Sensei's Divining Top.
Pacifism honestly is kinda.... well... lame. I suggest replacing it with something better like Arrest or Faith´s fetters which completely paralyzes the target. I would also replace (if you can afford it) Mortify for Vindicate, and Wrath of God or Damnation for Day of Judgement.
Your mana fixing is awesome, but I would consider adding a Reflecting Pool, and maybe Sylvan Scrying.
Finally, Stranglehold seems kinda lame, so I would change it for the staple Sensei's Divining Top.
Thanks for the suggestions. I've been using Pacifism to shut down aggressive generals but I'd agree on replacing it with Arrest. I just found that Shred Memory could tutor for it when needed, and since that card has few targets in this deck as it is....well, yeah. I'm honestly tempted to drop it for another creature or counterspell, though it can tutor for Demonic Tutor which is kind of a point in its favor. (Although 5CMC "tutor for anything" isn't great, it's better than nothing.)
Yeah, I was looking at Reflecting Pool, and the intro to my deck was written before a fair few changes were made. Having goldfished it on Tappedout.net roughly 20 times, I've almost always been able to drop Scion on turn 5, if not turn 4. Then again that's without being disrupted, so who knows how it'll do in a real game?
Stranglehold is tech for opposing black decks as well as anything with green, to be honest. Preventing my opponent from cracking a fetch or using a ramp spell locks games down in my favor, but I'll have to play with it more before I make a decision.
The biggest issue I've been having is this, actually:
What kind of creature:spell ratio should I be playing?
At present the deck essentially ramps from turns 1-3/4, drops Scion on turn 4 or 5, and then prays that he sticks for at least a few turns. By turn 8 or so I'll have a few targets to reanimate and hopefully I'll have tutored up Phyrexian Arena (my first go-to spell) or Mimic Vat to overwhelm my opponent.
Realistically, the deck is more reliant on the general than I'd like, though I'm a big fan of building around your commander. If I wanted to let the deck function without Scion, I'd likely need a wee bit more ramp and quite a few more creatures in order to put out some kind of offense without my general.
What should I cut? I played a lot of spot removal before but found that making my own deck more consistent was of a higher priority than having removal in the early game. Doing nothing but leaving mana open from turns 1-4 is not how I want games to go, ideally. (Hence the changes to my original build, which contained Journey to Nowhere, Putrefy, Condemn, and Go for the Throat in addition to the other removal spells. I did end up adding counterspells in place of some of those, however.)
Consider adding Yosei, the Morning Star. He's a go-to in my Scion deck to penalize players for killing my general. Personally I find Bladewing, the Risen to be sub-optimal because I usually don't want to see dragons in my hand, and his ability doesn't jive with Scion's. I don't play Karrthus for the same reason. If you want to keep those guys, consider Dragonspeaker Shaman to make them more playable.
Consider adding Yosei, the Morning Star. He's a go-to in my Scion deck to penalize players for killing my general. Personally I find Bladewing, the Risen to be sub-optimal because I usually don't want to see dragons in my hand, and his ability doesn't jive with Scion's. I don't play Karrthus for the same reason. If you want to keep those guys, consider Dragonspeaker Shaman to make them more playable.
You have a good point with the dragons, but after turn 7 or so, all I'm doing with my ramped up mana is recasting Scion if necessary, and just sitting on removal and counterspells. I felt that doing something a little more constructive like casting creatures would be useful at that point.
Karrthus and Bladewing work together in some nasty ways, but mostly Karrthus is an additional beater to convert Scion into something that'll survive a battle with the big 6/6 Dragon legendaries without wasting my Dragon Tyrant. Dragonspeaker Shaman would do well in here, but only if I went ahead and added more Dragons so as to actually have more than one in my hand at any given time. What would you suggest I cut for the Shaman and some extra Dragon targets?
Keiga kind of takes on Yosei's role in here, since I find taking control of their general is ridiculously useful when they don't have removal to get it back.
I'm thinking of the following changes, though:
-1 Stranglehold
+1 Utopia Tree
Stranglehold is good and all but it's dead against a fair few decks and I doubt my friend who plays Sisay will appreciate it much. Having more 2cmc ramp will ensure a turn 4 scion drop in more games, helping to seal the deal if I'm going the aggro route. Furthermore, having additional creatures on my side will make Dread Return's flashback cost payable. Sac 3 manadorks to rez Bladewing, who gets me another from the grave with his ETB ability. Awww yeah.
Anger is the first creature on my list, haha.
Shard Convergence is great card advantage in the mid-late game but really doesn't serve me much good on turns 3-4 when it's first castable. At those points I'd often rather ramp more or cast Scion. Really, it just functions as a lategame source of additional mana and to reduce land draws after the first several turns.
Is it worth keeping?
EDIT: Also, I've been looking at Crucible of Fire (same problem as Dragonspeaker Shaman imo), Braid of Fire (too narrow in usefulness), and Dragon Roost (has real potential as a lategame mana sink). Are any of those cards worth playing in here?
I think you're missing 2 of the best mana excel cards available to you: Mirari’s Wake and Mana Reflection. Also, Crucible of Fire has won me many a game with my Scion deck. I took Bladewing out of my deck and put in Wheel of Sun and Moon; makes it so i can re-tutor for my Overlord over and over Another great utility dude is Yore-Tiller Nephilim; he seriously pisses people off lol Also, you could probably due with a Kilnmouth Dragon; he's good for when you seem to be drawing nothing but freaking dragons lol.
Oh, I also like Quicksilver Amulet. I had Quicksilver Dragon in my Scion deck for a while but he never did anything awesome for me and everyone knew what it was so there was no surprise there. I switched him out for Bogardan Hellkite.
The deck isn't meant to be top-tier or anything, which is why I even decided to throw out the simple 2-card Niv-Mizzet/Curiosity combo which could've been tutored up on demand against a tapped out opponent.
However I do want it to be powerful and effective, both in single- and multiplayer games. Any suggestions to enhance the gameplan would be highly appreciated. Note that I don't mind combos, so long as they're not both totally game-ending and exceedingly easy to assemble. Furthermore, as the lands would suggest, I am both unwilling to spend a ton on this deck, and also rather unskilled at building a reliable manabase. I'd be grateful for some budget-friendly assistance if possible.
The deck will likely be played in 1v1 and Two-Headed Giant formats, with the very rare fatal four-way every once in awhile.
Here's the list:
1 Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Creatures: 18 (4 Utility, 4 Ramp, 10 Dragon)
2 Eternal Witness
3 Sheoldred, Whispering One
4 Bringer of the Black Dawn
5 Bringer of the Blue Dawn
6 Solemn Simulacrum
7 Birds of Paradise
8 Utopia Tree
9 Sakura-Tribe Elder
10 Bladewing the Risen
11 Dragon Tyrant
12 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
13 Hellkite Overlord
14 Quicksilver Dragon
15 Nicol Bolas
16 Steel Hellkite
17 Teneb, the Harvester
18 Vorosh, the Hunter
19 Keiga, the Tide Star
Non-Creature Ramp and Fixing: 11
20 Nature's Lore
21 Farseek
22 Skyshroud Claim
23 Hunting Wilds
24 Sol Ring
25 Coldsteel Heart
26 Fellwar Stone
27 Darksteel Ingot
28 Coalition Relic
29 Izzet Signet
30 Prismatic Omen
Tutoring: 4
31 Praetor's Grasp
32 Beseech the Queen
33 Diabolic Tutor
34 Liliana Vess
35 Fact or Fiction
36 Promise of Power
37 Phyrexian Arena
Spot Removal: 6
38 Path to Exile
39 Swords to Plowshares
40 Terminate
41 Mortify
42 Chaos Warp
43 Pacifism
Mass Creature Removal: 1
44 Day of Judgment
Counters: 3
45 Perplex (and CMC3 Transmute)
46 Spell Crumple
47 Hinder
Artifact/Enchant Removal: 2
48 Krosan Grip
49 Return to Dust
Reanimation: 5
50 Beacon of Unrest
51 Victimize
52 Patriarch's Bidding
53 Debtors' Knell
54 Mimic Vat
Multi-Purpose: 4
55 Bant Charm
56 Oblivion Ring
57 Austere Command
58 Shred Memory (CMC2 Transmute)
Other Good Stuff: 5
59 Lightning Greaves
60 Tooth and Nail
61 Conflux
62 All Suns' Dawn
63 Insurrection
Land: 37
64 Command Tower
65 Rupture Spire
66 Exotic Orchard
67 Vesuva
68 Arcane Sanctum
69 Crumbling Necropolis
70 Jungle Shrine
71 Savage Lands
72 Seaside Citadel
73 Gilt-Leaf Palace
74 Murmuring Bosk
75 Caves of Koilos
76 Flooded Grove
77 Twilight Mire
78 Godless Shrine
79 Overgrown Tomb
80 Blood Crypt
81 Stomping Ground
82 Breeding Pool
83 Temple Garden
84 Orzhov Basilica
85 Dragonskull Summit
86 Vivid Crag
87 Vivid Creek
88 Vivid Grove
89 Vivid Marsh
90 Vivid Meadow
91 Terramorphic Expanse
92 Evolving Wilds
93 Forest
94 Forest
95 Plains
96 Mountain
97 Island
98 Swamp
99 Swamp
100 Bojuka Bog
The latest changes include:
-1 Demonic Tutor
-1 Orzhov Signet
-1 Anger
-1 Gather Specimens
-1 Shard Convergence
-1 Stranglehold
+1 Utopia Tree
+1 Skyshroud Claim
+1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
+1 Hinder
+1 Conflux
+1 All Suns' Dawn
I have yet to put Conflux or All Suns' Dawn into action, but they seem appropriately epic for a five color deck, so they got the slot. The ramp provided by cards like Skyshroud Claim and Hunting Wilds is absolutely ridiculous. I routinely end up with 7 usable mana on turn 4, letting me shoot out Scion if I don't expect removal or drop a fat dragon from my hand to bait out that sort of thing.
Sheoldred is a late-game killer if they have no removal, acting as Debtors' Knell #2 in the deck.
More Trades: My YGO for Your MTG
- Some Spot Removal
+ Some Ramp
+ Counterspells
More Trades: My YGO for Your MTG
Your mana fixing is awesome, but I would consider adding a Reflecting Pool, and maybe Sylvan Scrying.
Finally, Stranglehold seems kinda lame, so I would change it for the staple Sensei's Divining Top.
Thanks for the suggestions. I've been using Pacifism to shut down aggressive generals but I'd agree on replacing it with Arrest. I just found that Shred Memory could tutor for it when needed, and since that card has few targets in this deck as it is....well, yeah. I'm honestly tempted to drop it for another creature or counterspell, though it can tutor for Demonic Tutor which is kind of a point in its favor. (Although 5CMC "tutor for anything" isn't great, it's better than nothing.)
Yeah, I was looking at Reflecting Pool, and the intro to my deck was written before a fair few changes were made. Having goldfished it on Tappedout.net roughly 20 times, I've almost always been able to drop Scion on turn 5, if not turn 4. Then again that's without being disrupted, so who knows how it'll do in a real game?
Stranglehold is tech for opposing black decks as well as anything with green, to be honest. Preventing my opponent from cracking a fetch or using a ramp spell locks games down in my favor, but I'll have to play with it more before I make a decision.
The biggest issue I've been having is this, actually:
What kind of creature:spell ratio should I be playing?
At present the deck essentially ramps from turns 1-3/4, drops Scion on turn 4 or 5, and then prays that he sticks for at least a few turns. By turn 8 or so I'll have a few targets to reanimate and hopefully I'll have tutored up Phyrexian Arena (my first go-to spell) or Mimic Vat to overwhelm my opponent.
Realistically, the deck is more reliant on the general than I'd like, though I'm a big fan of building around your commander. If I wanted to let the deck function without Scion, I'd likely need a wee bit more ramp and quite a few more creatures in order to put out some kind of offense without my general.
What should I cut? I played a lot of spot removal before but found that making my own deck more consistent was of a higher priority than having removal in the early game. Doing nothing but leaving mana open from turns 1-4 is not how I want games to go, ideally. (Hence the changes to my original build, which contained Journey to Nowhere, Putrefy, Condemn, and Go for the Throat in addition to the other removal spells. I did end up adding counterspells in place of some of those, however.)
More Trades: My YGO for Your MTG
I like Hellkite Charger just to have one more source of haste for Scion. On that note consider Fires of Yavimaya or Anger.
EDH: U Arcum Dagsson (primer!) U
You have a good point with the dragons, but after turn 7 or so, all I'm doing with my ramped up mana is recasting Scion if necessary, and just sitting on removal and counterspells. I felt that doing something a little more constructive like casting creatures would be useful at that point.
Karrthus and Bladewing work together in some nasty ways, but mostly Karrthus is an additional beater to convert Scion into something that'll survive a battle with the big 6/6 Dragon legendaries without wasting my Dragon Tyrant. Dragonspeaker Shaman would do well in here, but only if I went ahead and added more Dragons so as to actually have more than one in my hand at any given time. What would you suggest I cut for the Shaman and some extra Dragon targets?
Keiga kind of takes on Yosei's role in here, since I find taking control of their general is ridiculously useful when they don't have removal to get it back.
I'm thinking of the following changes, though:
-1 Stranglehold
+1 Utopia Tree
Stranglehold is good and all but it's dead against a fair few decks and I doubt my friend who plays Sisay will appreciate it much. Having more 2cmc ramp will ensure a turn 4 scion drop in more games, helping to seal the deal if I'm going the aggro route. Furthermore, having additional creatures on my side will make Dread Return's flashback cost payable. Sac 3 manadorks to rez Bladewing, who gets me another from the grave with his ETB ability. Awww yeah.
Anger is the first creature on my list, haha.
Shard Convergence is great card advantage in the mid-late game but really doesn't serve me much good on turns 3-4 when it's first castable. At those points I'd often rather ramp more or cast Scion. Really, it just functions as a lategame source of additional mana and to reduce land draws after the first several turns.
Is it worth keeping?
EDIT: Also, I've been looking at Crucible of Fire (same problem as Dragonspeaker Shaman imo), Braid of Fire (too narrow in usefulness), and Dragon Roost (has real potential as a lategame mana sink). Are any of those cards worth playing in here?
More Trades: My YGO for Your MTG
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon, the Destroyer of Darksteel
BGW Teneb, the Harvester, my Pimped Out Reanimator
GUB The Mimeoplasm Ooze-Mill
GWU Rafiq the Exalted
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon, the Destroyer of Darksteel
BGW Teneb, the Harvester, my Pimped Out Reanimator
GUB The Mimeoplasm Ooze-Mill
GWU Rafiq the Exalted