The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Thanks for getting this posted up tedv, it's a nice looking list. The cards that stood out the most to me for potential cuts are Sylvan Ranger, Voidslime and Scute Mob. I very rarely Stifle anything with Voidslime and if we're just looking to counter ***s then Negate is cheaper and easier to cast. Scute Mob could just be another evasive creature and Sylvan Ranger doesn't seem that good in a deck with such a powerful draw engine as it's commander.
The biggest benefit of Sylvan Ranger is hitting the third land drop on turn 3. I'd cut Elvish Visionary before him, though I confess I have considered cutting both.
I do hear you regarding Voidslime as well. I'll play Counterspell before Negate, just because I fear Elesh Norn, but I really suspect this list needs both of them.
I also think that Mystical Tutor and Regrowth could have a place in here as well. Mystical for Notorious Throng is just ridiculously good. I also like how you can Mystical in response to the last draw trigger from Edric for a prowl card.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I guess one of my questions being do you envision any problems with Arbor Elf? The fact that he doesnt work with anything but forests??? Do you think that mabe we should bring up the number of fetchlands in order to really utilize him well. If we bring the fetchland count up we could rely on having some of the dual lands more often also making him better.
I think you just sold me on Mystical Tutor with your last response as well. That is really good. The fact that it can be used to tutor up a creature tutor if Edric gets tucked is also solid.
Do you see any problems with Mind over Matter in this deck? It is really slow and hitting UUUU seems kinda crazy. I almost think I would rather drop Lurking Predators just for the tempo increase.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
The biggest benefit of Sylvan Ranger is hitting the third land drop on turn 3. I'd cut Elvish Visionary before him, though I confess I have considered cutting both.
I do hear you regarding Voidslime as well. I'll play Counterspell before Negate, just because I fear Elesh Norn, but I really suspect this list needs both of them.
I also think that Mystical Tutor and Regrowth could have a place in here as well. Mystical for Notorious Throng is just ridiculously good. I also like how you can Mystical in response to the last draw trigger from Edric for a prowl card.
I understand needing to hit that 3rd land but I think you'd be better off with something like Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox or Elvish Spirit Guide since you'll probably have a 1 drop so these would let you drop Edric turn 2 and start drawing cards. Coming down early also helps him avoid counterspells. Notorious Throng is completely broken in this deck and a tutor for it seems like a good idea.
Well the deck has 9 forests, 2 duals, and 7 fetch lands. I want to add Thran Quarry and City of Brass, so that will take it down to 8 forests (and one less island, of course) for a total of 17 forest sources. I think it will be fine. I'm also not sold on Oran-rief or the man lands, and they would be cut for basics as well.
I've loved Mind over Matter every time I've drawn it except in my opening hand. Getting UUUU usually involves appropriate mana floating with Frantic Search or Snap, which let you cast it on only 3 islands. In play, the card is amazing. It's an instant win with Groundskeeper and anything that taps for 3 or more mana (and there are many things in that category). You can pitch 1 or 2 cards to tap the blockers of whomever has the most creatures and then just swarm in with everything.
Why Lurking Predators? Six mana is a ton to spend on something that doesn't actually generate mana, and it's not like you need a card that provides a steady stream of 1 mana dorks. Your general does that already.
I think you're right on Chrome Mox. I didn't play one because I don't own one but it clearly needs to be somewhere in the list. Just not sure what to cut. Probably a land, since it turns a spell into a land. (I count Mox Diamond in the non-land spells for the opposite reason.)
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I think you're right on Chrome Mox. I didn't play one because I don't own one but it clearly needs to be somewhere in the list. Just not sure what to cut. Probably a land, since it turns a spell into a land. (I count Mox Diamond in the non-land spells for the opposite reason.)
Yes I would also be interested in what updates you have gone through. I know you have commented on a few of the cards you have run on Donald's page but I wouldnt mind hearing what changes have happened and why.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Boreal Druid got cut for producing colorless mana, which sucks more than you'd think. The Archdruid's +1/+1 doesn't help enough here, and while the mana generation is good, I'm not convinced this is what I want to spend 3 mana on. Garruk was really strong with Gaea's Cradle, but it was hard to resolve him and still keep counterspell mana up. I figured the slot was better used by another cheap creature. Aether Vial has the problem of not generating mana that can cast a non-creature.
I'm trying Lotus Petal to see how I like it. It seems like getting just one extra creature attack will mitigate the card loss. Sakura-Tribe Scout is the other Skyshroud Ranger I always wanted, though sadly he's not an elf.
I was concerned I had too many 2 mana creatures that provided card advantage but weren't evasive. Card advantage isn't what this deck needs, so they were cut for one mana beaters. I swapped Reclaim for Noxious Revival because the latter is just better, and I couldn't find the room for Reclaim as well. Mystical Tutor got added to search up Notorious Throng.
Scute Mob got the boot because he can be blocked. I'm a bit wary about a stock forestwalker like Shanodin Dryads because I can only hit one person with them. Plus Eladamri and Elvish Champion give more than enough forest walking. For the additions, Veil of Birds and Cloud Pirates are no-brainers. Memnite is probably amazing given his mana cost. And Hidden Guerillas seems really easy to trigger in multiplayer. The large body actually creates a genuine early game threat as well.
I've never actually used Triumph successfully. Every time I've drawn it I was already winning, or it didn't turn the current state into a winning one. In contrast, Time Walk effects almost always turn losing states into winning states. I'd play Temporal Manipulation and Capture of Jingzhao if I had them too.
3 mana is too much to play for a counter, much less 4. And counters are really important. So I focused on 1 and 2 mana counters here. Creatures that stop wrath effects are also really strong, as they provide a deterrent and just slow down the opponents so you get another attack. Spiketail in particular has been one of the best creatures in the deck.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
The changes seem good. Personally I cannot cut some of them due to my own meta but they seem right for what you seem to be fighting. I see more spot removal and tuck effect so there are probably 3 cards in there that I wouldn't have been willing to cut but you obviously encounter different things than I do.
It seems like a lot of good updates though.
EDIT: Also, correct the spelling on Hidden Guerrillas. You have spelled it wrong like like 3 times now
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
A card I've been thinking a lot about lately is Time Spiral. It's freeish (since we won't always have 6 land) to cast and digs deep for a Time Walk. The downside is that it shuffles our graveyard back in so drawing a Regrowth won't help. Personal Tutor is another option for tutoring up a Time Walk but being a sorcery really hurts the card so I'm not sure if it's strong enough. Eldrazi Monument seems lackluster in favor of another time walk, tutor for a Time Walk or even a counterspell and with Green Sun's Zenith as your only remaining tutor I think I'd run Reclaim over Eternal Witness just because you are more likely to be able to regrow a Time Walk and cast it the same turn with the cheaper spell. Have you had any issues with not having enough basics for Elvish Pioneer or a forest for Arbor Elf?
A couple of cards I have had tremendous success with are Erayo and Aluren. Erayo is really easy to trigger, and Aluren makes it frighteningly easy. However, those are probably suited more for 1v1 play, which is what my Edric build is for, so YMMV.
I also play fewer lands; 33, IIRC, and there are times I still get flooded. I think any land that CIPT just isn't worth it, since your goal is to get going as quickly as possible. Dryad Arbor essentially CIPT, but it has other applications that make it at least viable if not great at times. My curve is also lower because of the land count, with maybe 8 spells that cost more than 2, so it plays a bit differently than yours.
I do disagree about Aether Vial, though. Sure, it doesn't let you cast other stuff, but that typically isn't a big deal; at least, it hasn't been for me. I love seeing it in my opening hand, I can tell you that. It is definitely subpar later, but that's the case with many "good" cards.
Erayo is in tedv's list and Aluren I consider to be too slow, which is quite frightening since you seem willing to play the card in 1v1. I'd much rather play another little guy before adding Aluren to my list.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
Every time I have cast Aluren, I have won. I generally don't throw it out naked against combo or something that can take real advantage of it unless I just have to to win for some reason, but it's probably the most "I win" card in the deck. Again, YMMV.
I think in multiplayer it opens up the weakness of Aluren wider. You are no longer looking at only one opposing deck potentially dumping a bunch of guys on you at instant speed, you are now worried that anyone can do it to you. It is a lot easier to gauge what sort of response you might get from it in a 1 v 1 than in multiplayer.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I think in multiplayer it opens up the weakness of Aluren wider. You are no longer looking at only one opposing deck potentially dumping a bunch of guys on you at instant speed, you are now worried that anyone can do it to you. It is a lot easier to gauge what sort of response you might get from it in a 1 v 1 than in multiplayer.
Indeed, which I more or less stated. Against certain decks in multiplayer it might be amazing. The other problem with it in multiplayer is that it makes you want to flood the board, which is bad since there are more sweepers in multi than 1v1. Again, YMMV.
Time Spiral was on my very original list, but got cut because I really don't want other people to draw 7 cards. In the mid to late game, it's likely that every opponent will cast a spell you have to counter.
You make an interesting argument about Reclaim over Eternal Witness. I can see how it's another variant of Trinket Mage-- amazing effect on a cheap creature, but still possibly too expensive. I'm going to keep playing it for now, but I'll consider replacing it. Another option would be Regrowth, but I think I'd rather play Reclaim, given that turning 1 card into 1 mana is often useful and rarely the end of the world.
I haven't had any problems with Elvish Pioneer, though sometimes you need to plan your land drops around him. Arbor elf is amazing because he untaps Tropical Island. He's an elf that taps for U!
Aluren scares me because I can already cast my creatures for almost no mana, and this lets other people do it too. Worst of all, I can't plan around potential blockers.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I have to agree with the issues with Time Spiral. I feel like it is just going to fill my opponents hands with more ramp and wraths. We have so many ways to draw cards off of Edric already that I don't see giving our opponents answers and ramp as a good thing.
How has the Elvish Champion been panning out of late Tedv? Your list seems to get closer to not being tribal anymore and I just sort of wonder if he is performing enough to stick still. I think that the rest of your tribal package is still solid but I think he is the last one that I sort of question if he should be included or not.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
It's always amazing to draw the champ, just because you typically have 2 or 3 elves in play, and giving them all forestwalk is amazing. It's less tribal in that I "only" have something like 12 elves in the deck, including the general.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
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1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Creature Card Manipulation: 3
1 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Groundskeeper
1 Eternal Witness
Noncreature Card Manipulation: 5
1 Noxious Revival
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Frantic Search
1 Knowledge Exploitation
1 Mystical Tutor
Creature Mana generation: 9
1 Elvish Pioneer
1 Skyshroud Ranger
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Arbor Elf
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Priest of Titania
1 Sakura-Tribe Scout
Noncreature Mana generation: 7
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Crop Rotation
1 Exploration
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
Tempo: 10
1 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
1 Snap
1 Turbulent Dreams
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Tangle Wire
1 Mind over Matter
1 Treachery
1 Time Warp
1 Walk the Aeons
1 Notorious Throng
1 Memnite
1 Veil of Birds
1 Hidden Guerrillas
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Scryb Sprites
1 Cloud Pirates
1 Flying Men
1 Treetop Scout
1 Zephyr Sprite
1 Cloud Sprite
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Wirewood Hivemaster
1 Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
1 Elvish Champion
Noncreature Threats: 4
1 Wonder
1 Beastmaster’s Ascension
1 Eldrazi Monument
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
Counters: 10
1 Mana Drain
1 Arcane Denial
1 Forbid
1 Unified Will
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
1 Negate
1 Cursecatcher
1 Spiketail Hatchling
1 Martyr of Frost
1 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Arbor Dryad
1 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Grove
7 Fetch Lands
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Command Tower
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Oran-rief, the Vastwood
1 City of Brass
1 Thran Quary
8 Forest
8 Island
Seems pretty competitive for multiplayer, though.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
I do hear you regarding Voidslime as well. I'll play Counterspell before Negate, just because I fear Elesh Norn, but I really suspect this list needs both of them.
I also think that Mystical Tutor and Regrowth could have a place in here as well. Mystical for Notorious Throng is just ridiculously good. I also like how you can Mystical in response to the last draw trigger from Edric for a prowl card.
I think you just sold me on Mystical Tutor with your last response as well. That is really good. The fact that it can be used to tutor up a creature tutor if Edric gets tucked is also solid.
Do you see any problems with Mind over Matter in this deck? It is really slow and hitting UUUU seems kinda crazy. I almost think I would rather drop Lurking Predators just for the tempo increase.
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I understand needing to hit that 3rd land but I think you'd be better off with something like Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox or Elvish Spirit Guide since you'll probably have a 1 drop so these would let you drop Edric turn 2 and start drawing cards. Coming down early also helps him avoid counterspells. Notorious Throng is completely broken in this deck and a tutor for it seems like a good idea.
I've loved Mind over Matter every time I've drawn it except in my opening hand. Getting UUUU usually involves appropriate mana floating with Frantic Search or Snap, which let you cast it on only 3 islands. In play, the card is amazing. It's an instant win with Groundskeeper and anything that taps for 3 or more mana (and there are many things in that category). You can pitch 1 or 2 cards to tap the blockers of whomever has the most creatures and then just swarm in with everything.
Why Lurking Predators? Six mana is a ton to spend on something that doesn't actually generate mana, and it's not like you need a card that provides a steady stream of 1 mana dorks. Your general does that already.
I think you're right on Chrome Mox. I didn't play one because I don't own one but it clearly needs to be somewhere in the list. Just not sure what to cut. Probably a land, since it turns a spell into a land. (I count Mox Diamond in the non-land spells for the opposite reason.)
I always run Chrome Mox as a land and Mox Diamond as a spell for the same reasons.
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1 Boreal Druid
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Aether Vial
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sakura-Tribe Scout
Boreal Druid got cut for producing colorless mana, which sucks more than you'd think. The Archdruid's +1/+1 doesn't help enough here, and while the mana generation is good, I'm not convinced this is what I want to spend 3 mana on. Garruk was really strong with Gaea's Cradle, but it was hard to resolve him and still keep counterspell mana up. I figured the slot was better used by another cheap creature. Aether Vial has the problem of not generating mana that can cast a non-creature.
I'm trying Lotus Petal to see how I like it. It seems like getting just one extra creature attack will mitigate the card loss. Sakura-Tribe Scout is the other Skyshroud Ranger I always wanted, though sadly he's not an elf.
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Reclaim
1 Noxious Revival
1 Mystical Tutor
I was concerned I had too many 2 mana creatures that provided card advantage but weren't evasive. Card advantage isn't what this deck needs, so they were cut for one mana beaters. I swapped Reclaim for Noxious Revival because the latter is just better, and I couldn't find the room for Reclaim as well. Mystical Tutor got added to search up Notorious Throng.
1 Scute Mob
1 Shanodin Dryads
1 Imperious Perfect
1 Memnite
1 Veil of Birds
1 Hidden Guerrillas
1 Cloud Pirates
Scute Mob got the boot because he can be blocked. I'm a bit wary about a stock forestwalker like Shanodin Dryads because I can only hit one person with them. Plus Eladamri and Elvish Champion give more than enough forest walking. For the additions, Veil of Birds and Cloud Pirates are no-brainers. Memnite is probably amazing given his mana cost. And Hidden Guerillas seems really easy to trigger in multiplayer. The large body actually creates a genuine early game threat as well.
1 Triumph of the Hordes
1 Walk the Aeons
I've never actually used Triumph successfully. Every time I've drawn it I was already winning, or it didn't turn the current state into a winning one. In contrast, Time Walk effects almost always turn losing states into winning states. I'd play Temporal Manipulation and Capture of Jingzhao if I had them too.
1 Mystic Snake
1 Voidslime
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1 Unified Will
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
1 Negate
1 Cursecatcher
1 Spiketail Hatchling
1 Martyr of Frost
3 mana is too much to play for a counter, much less 4. And counters are really important. So I focused on 1 and 2 mana counters here. Creatures that stop wrath effects are also really strong, as they provide a deterrent and just slow down the opponents so you get another attack. Spiketail in particular has been one of the best creatures in the deck.
1 Forest
1 Island
1 City of Brass
1 Thran Quarry
More color fixing. Pretty straight forward.
It seems like a lot of good updates though.
EDIT: Also, correct the spelling on Hidden Guerrillas. You have spelled it wrong like like 3 times now
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I also play fewer lands; 33, IIRC, and there are times I still get flooded. I think any land that CIPT just isn't worth it, since your goal is to get going as quickly as possible. Dryad Arbor essentially CIPT, but it has other applications that make it at least viable if not great at times. My curve is also lower because of the land count, with maybe 8 spells that cost more than 2, so it plays a bit differently than yours.
I do disagree about Aether Vial, though. Sure, it doesn't let you cast other stuff, but that typically isn't a big deal; at least, it hasn't been for me. I love seeing it in my opening hand, I can tell you that. It is definitely subpar later, but that's the case with many "good" cards.
Anyway, just my thoughts. I like the list.
I didn't see Erayo in the list, so my apologies.
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Indeed, which I more or less stated. Against certain decks in multiplayer it might be amazing. The other problem with it in multiplayer is that it makes you want to flood the board, which is bad since there are more sweepers in multi than 1v1. Again, YMMV.
You make an interesting argument about Reclaim over Eternal Witness. I can see how it's another variant of Trinket Mage-- amazing effect on a cheap creature, but still possibly too expensive. I'm going to keep playing it for now, but I'll consider replacing it. Another option would be Regrowth, but I think I'd rather play Reclaim, given that turning 1 card into 1 mana is often useful and rarely the end of the world.
I haven't had any problems with Elvish Pioneer, though sometimes you need to plan your land drops around him. Arbor elf is amazing because he untaps Tropical Island. He's an elf that taps for U!
Aluren scares me because I can already cast my creatures for almost no mana, and this lets other people do it too. Worst of all, I can't plan around potential blockers.
How has the Elvish Champion been panning out of late Tedv? Your list seems to get closer to not being tribal anymore and I just sort of wonder if he is performing enough to stick still. I think that the rest of your tribal package is still solid but I think he is the last one that I sort of question if he should be included or not.
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