These forums used to have an abundance of good, strong deck lists represented by threads that mostly started with; "Our play group doesn't use combo." Since the release of the new precon commander decks, almost every deck list I look at has a list of infinite combos, bragging about how broken their deck is.
Is this a draw for newer players? Is it the new players that are now able to jump into commander which ofcourse has a relatively unrestricted card pool that are coming up with combo oriented lists?
I'm not hating on combo, I know that this format has just as many answers as combo enablers and if I were to preach anything to anyone it would be, even mono red needs to run answers.
All of that being said, my play group has a basic rule that if you win by combo then you win! but we are also going to reset the board to the turn before you did and play for second place. So please don't turn this into a "they should ban so and so" or "combo's are unfair" or even "suck it up". Everyone is welcome to run whatever they want.
More interested in why they're becoming more popular. Is there some sort of shift in play that I'm just missing?
I've seen infinite combo decks and non-combo decks since the first day I've posted here about 8 months back. I haven't seen any difference since the release of commander. If anything, there's probably been even less of it, as many of the popular commanders (Edric, Zedruu, Mimeoplasm, Riku, Kaalia) encourage either a linear non-combo strategy or combos that are non-infinite (like Mimeoplasm pairings or clutch Zedruu donates).
I mean, I did build my Damia deck to be particularly brutal, but that's because I feel that she's an unfair general and I kind of want my playgroup to house ban her - if anyone else starts playing her, I'll just start playing my Damia deck every game until everyone either recognizes her as an absolute threat and hates out completely on sight or house bans her.
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O_O I find damia to be completely fair.
Also, the ONLY generals that want you to infinicombo from the new set it seems are Riku (tutor palinchron, gg) ghave with his supporting karmic/saffi/lark and infinite mana/tokens, and animar with "draw your deck via glimpse of nature shenannigans" the last one isn't even really infinite most of the time too.
Combo is a really viable way to win fast, which is why competitive playgroups usually have a combo player or two. Doesn't mean aggro and control aren't viable tho, not by a long shot.
Thanks to the wide range of card access EDH provides, it's easy to set your deck up with two or three 3-card-combos and a bucket of tutors/card draw/deck manipulators, making it very easy to draw into a combo and win the game nearly on the spot.
The fact that EDH games can take anywhere between half an hour to upwards of 3 hours (and even longer with more players), any infinite combos will double as time-savers for some of us. Sometimes going infinite is the most practical way of winning.
The fact that EDH will receive constant support, even without WotC focusing on it exclusively (like they've been doing) means the format will be getting new options, and those options open up more infinite combos.
The primary reason combo is growing is because EDH takes a long time to play, and that comboing off is the most practical method of winning any EDH match.
Edit: Strangely, its like playing a fighting game. Sure you can kite them or use counters, but the best way to end a fight is by knowing what your character's combos are, and doing everything in your power to pull them off before the enemy does.
EDH is a format that lets you only run 1 card of each at a time.
This means you are attempting to squeeze asmuch performance out of a single card as possible simultaneously attempting to kill an opponent with as few cards as possible.
Hence, combos -- fewest cards to kill an opponent in the fewest turns.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
The fact that EDH will receive constant support, even without WotC focusing on it exclusively (like they've been doing) means the format will be getting new options, and those options open up more infinite combos.
The primary reason combo is growing is because EDH takes a long time to play, and that comboing off is the most practical method of winning any EDH match.
My totally subjective, possibly biased view of the Commander community disagrees with this in so far as I see the growth of combo is owing to the expansion of the community to include a larger number of players (used to competitive formats?) who don't accept, or know of, the "social contract" or "gentleman's agreement" upon which Commander is supposed to be based and which the Rule Committee tends to support; members of the RC, notably Sheldon, have been outspoken against using infinite combos for a long time as against the "spirit" of the format. I personally happen to agree with the overall goals of the RC's "social contract," although I do agree with you, Sinfire Titan, that someone combo'ing out can sometimes be a blessing: although I enjoy long, epic games from time to time, the time I have free to play Commander is relatively limited, and I like to get in a number of games rather than just a couple during the weekly Commander night.
My totally subjective, possibly biased view of the Commander community disagrees with this in so far as I see the growth of combo is owing to the expansion of the community to include a larger number of players (used to competitive formats?) who don't accept, or know of, the "social contract" or "gentleman's agreement" upon which Commander is supposed to be based and which the Rule Committee tends to support; members of the RC, notably Sheldon, have been outspoken against using infinite combos for a long time as against the "spirit" of the format. I personally happen to agree with the overall goals of the RC's "social contract," although I do agree with you, Sinfire Titan, that someone combo'ing out can sometimes be a blessing: although I enjoy long, epic games from time to time, the time I have free to play Commander is relatively limited, and I like to get in a number of games rather than just a couple during the weekly Commander night.
I more or less agree with this. There are a lot of people coming in who are used to more competitive formats right now - I've seen more requests for competitive lists and optimized builds recently as well. While there's always been combo, it's probably going through a bit of a surge right now. Once the hype dies down a little, I suspect we'll see a bit of a reduction in combo players.
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Edit: Strangely, its like playing a fighting game. Sure you can kite them or use counters, but the best way to end a fight is by knowing what your character's combos are, and doing everything in your power to pull them off before the enemy does.
This, this, a million times this. I like having the ability to end the game when it goes on forever.
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How many wraths do people run around you? When tables pack upwards of 15 sweepers, it's pointless attempting to do anything but combo. Tuned decks also have combos in them because of good synergy, if only as a back up plan. It's more of a developed metagame thing vs. a "let's emphasize combo" thing as people get a feel for what they can and cannot do.
Isn't it just the same as why combo grew into normal magic? EDH might be the first real type of magic people play, it has become THAT popular. Just like in the days of old with 1 v 1 everyone sooner or later wether it is from online or just messing with your own cards, figures out combos and how to enable them further.
Commander/EDH is starting to settle into a middle period. When I first started playing EDH about 2-3 years ago, many of the combo-centric generals were still being discovered/broken.
I think that the number of undiscovered interactions and combos has shrunk dramatically since then. The internet is awesome for sharing information and working on decks together, but one of the consequences is the canonization of the "best cards" and the enumeration of all possible infinite combos. It becomes easier to plug in combos and it also seems more prevalent, like everyone is doing it.
Also, the internet isn't wrong. The "best cards" are really good, and combos are a powerful way to win multiplayer games. If anything, I don't think that new players are drawn more to combo as they are not ushered into the EDH mindset that has existed (somewhat anti-combo, pro-Timmy).
Online, I see less and less, though I block people who run them, so that may account for it.
Personally, I dislike instant-win combos in EDH. You're all having fun, things are going back and forth, and then it's as if some kid comes and flips over the table, and runs away laughing. Sure, the game ended. But that wasn't the point...
I always keep at least one or two infinite combos in each of my decks, if only to end stalemates. I find the gentleman's contract to be more of a guideline than a hard and fast rule. No, my deck does not only exist to combo out on turn four, but if you're going to hate on me for running any infinite combos at all, you don't have to play with me.
The combos I happen to run are also purely incidental. For example, Ghave, Doubling Season and Earthcraft just happen to be good cards in my deck. They can combo, but that's not the reason they're there. Can I infinite out with them? Yes. Will I always? No, because then we'll never get to see how games pan out.
Honestly, I like to have at least one way to go infinite in at least all of my decks, the only one that doesn't is Ruhan but that deck is kinda meant to be a joke anyway. There are way to many time when Games get to the point that you have been playing for an hour or two and either the board is convoluted as all hell and no one can gain any ground against each other or everything has been obliterated so many times that everyone is out of gas. In either case having something that can just win without allowing as much opponent interaction is a godsend.
Now I won't Lie my Sharuum deck is brimming with combo and aside from comboing out it's only method of winning is to reanimate a Magister Sphnix with sharuum and swing for lethal against someone on the next turn. I play this deck very rarely but keep it together in case of three things; the very seldom run EDH tournament, In case I play some of the guys who occasionally come up from downstate who are a very cutthroat group of spikes, or I feel like playing a game of EDH but don't really have a few hours to burn. Now in the last case It works because I'll either win or be hated out by turn 8 at the latest so then then the other players can start again or if they have me beat I'll scoop myself out of the game when I run out of time.
I just wish it was consistent played or not played. While I am pretty anti combo. I would be more okay with it if people where more upfront about using it. So I could just build my decks with it in mind. For instance last night in my play group where most people hate combo. A person with a animar deck said they didn't have any of the really lame combos proceeds to play Palinchron going infinity and winning out of no where just as the game was getting interesting. The table was pretty annoyed. I felt mislead, honestly. Sadly I didn't bring my 40 counter you get ****ed next game deck either.
Wait, do you mean you don't always assemble all the pieces or that if you have them on the board you won't always go infinite?
Well, both really. I won't tutor up the pieces and save them just to go off, since they'tre individually good. Often, one'll get destroyed before I play the others, so that's usually that. In the cases where I do get everything assembled, I just won't go infinite unless I want to end things quick or something. I mean, those three cards do have other uses, so unless someone specifically calls me out on slowrolling (which I hate, BTW, since it encourages degeneracy), I'll just lay back and use them for other things.
The combos I happen to run are also purely incidental. For example, Ghave, Doubling Season and Earthcraft just happen to be good cards in my deck. They can combo, but that's not the reason they're there. Can I infinite out with them? Yes. Will I always? No, because then we'll never get to see how games pan out.
That's like saying "Hey, I have nukes, but I'm totally not going to use them unless you piss me off." If you have the ability to win right then and there, and you don't (and they see you can combo out,) it's worse than actually comboing out. And if you intentionally don't play a card because it can combo out, that's also bad.
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My playgroup is just now running into the problem of everyone having decently strong decks(Thanks to the pre-cons Wizards released). This means that games can go very long.(3+ hours on occasion) I have always been building my decks with an eye towards no mean or nasty combo shenanigans, however I am seriously considered building a Sharuum deck.
It's a way for me to possibly end games when they've gotten out of hand. Honestly, games that go that long are not good for the health of my playgroup. They tend to get burned out on that at that point, and stop playing for a while. Ironic, since they are the ones who dragged me into EDH.
My playgroup is just now running into the problem of everyone having decently strong decks(Thanks to the pre-cons Wizards released). This means that games can go very long.(3+ hours on occasion) I have always been building my decks with an eye towards no mean or nasty combo shenanigans, however I am seriously considered building a Sharuum deck.
It's a way for me to possibly end games when they've gotten out of hand. Honestly, games that go that long are not good for the health of my playgroup. They tend to get burned out on that at that point, and stop playing for a while. Ironic, since they are the ones who dragged me into EDH.
Rather then going combo I suggest talking people into cutting back on sweeper style cards and increasing the number of threats. I have been in groups where everyone ended up with 10 sweepers, and rarely a turn would go around without one going off. Which stalls out games for groups that don't use infinity.
I just wish it was consistent played or not played. While I am pretty anti combo. I would be more okay with it if people where more upfront about using it. So I could just build my decks with it in mind. For instance last night in my play group where most people hate combo. A person with a animar deck said they didn't have any of the really lame combos proceeds to play Palinchron going infinity and winning out of no where just as the game was getting interesting. The table was pretty annoyed. I felt mislead, honestly. Sadly I didn't bring my 40 counter you get ****ed next game deck either.
Why is that your mindset? "Oh, you happened to win with a combo last game, so now I am going to play this next game like a sadistic *******, rather than just play the game". Someone makes a strong play and you, apparently, turn into an *******.
I have combos in plenty of my decks. I don't always search them out, I don't always use them, I don't always end the game here and then, yadda yadda. It's not so much combo can be degenerate, it depends on the people. My friends' Omnath deck often gets to absurd power and mana, but he doesn't end things right away, cuz he likes to see how interesting things get. Because there are some hilarious things I can do with some of my decks. Though, he's stopped pulling punches against Braids, since that deck is pretty disgusting.
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Why is that your mindset? "Oh, you happened to win with a combo last game, so now I am going to play this next game like a sadistic *******, rather than just play the game". Someone makes a strong play and you, apparently, turn into an *******.
Having an infinity combo in a group that does not play with them is not a strong play. It is just lame. I just like to make sure someone does not win 2 games in a row with lame combos. Usually the message get across after only once.
Some people don't like attempting to win with 100 creature damage only to get owned by a fog.
Some people also don't like to patiently set up there board until they can play a combo and kill the board.
It doesn't matter which type of player you are, just that you have fun the way you like to play...
this, I get sick of hearing about people using the "gentleman's contract" bull crap to act like a bunch of card slinging commies hell bent on making everyone conform to their way of thinking.
Is this a draw for newer players? Is it the new players that are now able to jump into commander which ofcourse has a relatively unrestricted card pool that are coming up with combo oriented lists?
I'm not hating on combo, I know that this format has just as many answers as combo enablers and if I were to preach anything to anyone it would be, even mono red needs to run answers.
All of that being said, my play group has a basic rule that if you win by combo then you win! but we are also going to reset the board to the turn before you did and play for second place. So please don't turn this into a "they should ban so and so" or "combo's are unfair" or even "suck it up". Everyone is welcome to run whatever they want.
More interested in why they're becoming more popular. Is there some sort of shift in play that I'm just missing?
I mean, I did build my Damia deck to be particularly brutal, but that's because I feel that she's an unfair general and I kind of want my playgroup to house ban her - if anyone else starts playing her, I'll just start playing my Damia deck every game until everyone either recognizes her as an absolute threat and hates out completely on sight or house bans her.
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Also, the ONLY generals that want you to infinicombo from the new set it seems are Riku (tutor palinchron, gg) ghave with his supporting karmic/saffi/lark and infinite mana/tokens, and animar with "draw your deck via glimpse of nature shenannigans" the last one isn't even really infinite most of the time too.
Combo is a really viable way to win fast, which is why competitive playgroups usually have a combo player or two. Doesn't mean aggro and control aren't viable tho, not by a long shot.
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The fact that EDH games can take anywhere between half an hour to upwards of 3 hours (and even longer with more players), any infinite combos will double as time-savers for some of us. Sometimes going infinite is the most practical way of winning.
The fact that EDH will receive constant support, even without WotC focusing on it exclusively (like they've been doing) means the format will be getting new options, and those options open up more infinite combos.
The primary reason combo is growing is because EDH takes a long time to play, and that comboing off is the most practical method of winning any EDH match.
Edit: Strangely, its like playing a fighting game. Sure you can kite them or use counters, but the best way to end a fight is by knowing what your character's combos are, and doing everything in your power to pull them off before the enemy does.
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This means you are attempting to squeeze asmuch performance out of a single card as possible simultaneously attempting to kill an opponent with as few cards as possible.
Hence, combos -- fewest cards to kill an opponent in the fewest turns.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
My totally subjective, possibly biased view of the Commander community disagrees with this in so far as I see the growth of combo is owing to the expansion of the community to include a larger number of players (used to competitive formats?) who don't accept, or know of, the "social contract" or "gentleman's agreement" upon which Commander is supposed to be based and which the Rule Committee tends to support; members of the RC, notably Sheldon, have been outspoken against using infinite combos for a long time as against the "spirit" of the format. I personally happen to agree with the overall goals of the RC's "social contract," although I do agree with you, Sinfire Titan, that someone combo'ing out can sometimes be a blessing: although I enjoy long, epic games from time to time, the time I have free to play Commander is relatively limited, and I like to get in a number of games rather than just a couple during the weekly Commander night.
I more or less agree with this. There are a lot of people coming in who are used to more competitive formats right now - I've seen more requests for competitive lists and optimized builds recently as well. While there's always been combo, it's probably going through a bit of a surge right now. Once the hype dies down a little, I suspect we'll see a bit of a reduction in combo players.
This, this, a million times this. I like having the ability to end the game when it goes on forever.
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I think that the number of undiscovered interactions and combos has shrunk dramatically since then. The internet is awesome for sharing information and working on decks together, but one of the consequences is the canonization of the "best cards" and the enumeration of all possible infinite combos. It becomes easier to plug in combos and it also seems more prevalent, like everyone is doing it.
Also, the internet isn't wrong. The "best cards" are really good, and combos are a powerful way to win multiplayer games. If anything, I don't think that new players are drawn more to combo as they are not ushered into the EDH mindset that has existed (somewhat anti-combo, pro-Timmy).
Personally, I dislike instant-win combos in EDH. You're all having fun, things are going back and forth, and then it's as if some kid comes and flips over the table, and runs away laughing. Sure, the game ended. But that wasn't the point...
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Now I won't Lie my Sharuum deck is brimming with combo and aside from comboing out it's only method of winning is to reanimate a Magister Sphnix with sharuum and swing for lethal against someone on the next turn. I play this deck very rarely but keep it together in case of three things; the very seldom run EDH tournament, In case I play some of the guys who occasionally come up from downstate who are a very cutthroat group of spikes, or I feel like playing a game of EDH but don't really have a few hours to burn. Now in the last case It works because I'll either win or be hated out by turn 8 at the latest so then then the other players can start again or if they have me beat I'll scoop myself out of the game when I run out of time.
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Well, both really. I won't tutor up the pieces and save them just to go off, since they'tre individually good. Often, one'll get destroyed before I play the others, so that's usually that. In the cases where I do get everything assembled, I just won't go infinite unless I want to end things quick or something. I mean, those three cards do have other uses, so unless someone specifically calls me out on slowrolling (which I hate, BTW, since it encourages degeneracy), I'll just lay back and use them for other things.
That's like saying "Hey, I have nukes, but I'm totally not going to use them unless you piss me off." If you have the ability to win right then and there, and you don't (and they see you can combo out,) it's worse than actually comboing out. And if you intentionally don't play a card because it can combo out, that's also bad.
On Mythic Rares: "What's next, Wizards will print six golden Black Lotuses and randomly place them in boosters, and if someone gets one, they get to tour the Wizards facility?"
Wydwen|Edric|Sakashima|Marrow-Gnawer|Hazezon
8.5 Tails|Seton|Rasputin|Doran|Gisela|Karona|Márton
It's a way for me to possibly end games when they've gotten out of hand. Honestly, games that go that long are not good for the health of my playgroup. They tend to get burned out on that at that point, and stop playing for a while. Ironic, since they are the ones who dragged me into EDH.
Rather then going combo I suggest talking people into cutting back on sweeper style cards and increasing the number of threats. I have been in groups where everyone ended up with 10 sweepers, and rarely a turn would go around without one going off. Which stalls out games for groups that don't use infinity.
Why is that your mindset? "Oh, you happened to win with a combo last game, so now I am going to play this next game like a sadistic *******, rather than just play the game". Someone makes a strong play and you, apparently, turn into an *******.
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Major EDH player! Current decks: UUBraids, Waifu | UGZegana | RGWEnchantress Uril, the Miststalker | WBTriad of Fates (new!) | RBGXira Arien Re-dredge-imator (unretired!)
Eladamri | Anowon | Sydri | Melek | Augustin IV | Thelon | Sliver Overlord | Ramirez DePietro
Retired! Kangee | Kaalia
Having an infinity combo in a group that does not play with them is not a strong play. It is just lame. I just like to make sure someone does not win 2 games in a row with lame combos. Usually the message get across after only once.
Some people also don't like to patiently set up there board until they can play a combo and kill the board.
It doesn't matter which type of player you are, just that you have fun the way you like to play...
this, I get sick of hearing about people using the "gentleman's contract" bull crap to act like a bunch of card slinging commies hell bent on making everyone conform to their way of thinking.